Kev
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Location: Australia Member Since: Nov 2011
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« on: June 19, 2012, 03:48 AM » |
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I'm completely ignorant on these ... I've seen them advertised with a very wide range of prices. Once again Paul Marcel has nudged me into looking at an area of tools that I've neglected caring for when he discussed storing his files, rasps, etc and it got me looking about at various things. As a consequence, I found a lovely looking Japanese rasp on Ebay ... http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Japanese-Rasp-Shinto-double-side-250mm-cutting-blade-file-/200754253352?pt=AU_Hand_Tools&hash=item2ebde2ce28#ht_4711wt_922... now this has got me thinking about the whole Japanese tool thing  I've got some nice (cost a lot a long time ago) Japanese chisels, but to be honest I find a well sharpened Marples chisel a better tool (I'm considering some Harold & Saxon's) Is the "Japanese Tool" thing a fashion fad, or do you think there's some must have tools that are unique? |
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fdengel
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Location: United States Member Since: Jun 2010
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« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2012, 06:34 AM » |
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Like most other places, there are "tools" and there are TOOLS.
I definitely prefer Japanese hand saws. They are different and may require some adjustment in how you use them, but the well-made ones are really good tools. Can't really speak to the rasps or chisels just yet...
As to the saws: the blades tend to be much thinner than are the blades on typical "push cut" saws. They can be thinner because they don't cut under compression forces (when you pull the saw, you aren't creating a situation where the blade is likely to bend out of shape, so it is less likely to shatter/break if used correctly). The thinner blade means less material pushing back against it, thus less resistance, leading to an easier cut.
It's also a more natural feel to be pulling for the cut rather than pushing - again, if you've conditioned yourself to use the push saws (I never really did), it may be a bit of an adjustment to get used to the way pull saws are used...
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Jerome
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Location: Japan, Thailand, UK Member Since: May 2007
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« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2012, 07:56 AM » |
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That rasp works well with hard woods. It like a lot of hacksaw blades riveted together. FWIW he has marked it up a lot from the price here.
As for other tools some are great, like the marking gages, some are OK and I pass on others.
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Jerome TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone & Workshop supplies drum sander. Wish list WoodRat http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/ |
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RL
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Location: Canada Member Since: Feb 2010
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« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2012, 07:57 AM » |
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I've tried Japanese hand saws and they are not for me.
Most of the timber I use are Western hardwoods such as cherry, maple and walnut, and I find the Western saws better suited for these woods. I like to start my cuts at the far end of the timber so a push style works better for me.
I am also used to sharpening Western saws- I'm unsure how easy it is to sharpen the Japanese saws.
I also find the Western saw handles very comfortable.
I would recommend you get a cheap Dokuki and try it out before committing yourself one way or another. Certainly, generations of Western craftsman got by just fine without Japanese tools. I wouldn't say they are "must-have" by any means.
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Kev
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Location: Australia Member Since: Nov 2011
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« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2012, 08:40 AM » |
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I've tried Japanese hand saws and they are not for me.
Most of the timber I use are Western hardwoods such as cherry, maple and walnut, and I find the Western saws better suited for these woods. I like to start my cuts at the far end of the timber so a push style works better for me.
I am also used to sharpening Western saws- I'm unsure how easy it is to sharpen the Japanese saws.
I also find the Western saw handles very comfortable.
I would recommend you get a cheap Dokuki and try it out before committing yourself one way or another. Certainly, generations of Western craftsman got by just fine without Japanese tools. I wouldn't say they are "must-have" by any means.
Funny you should say that - my brief exposure to pull saws wasn't great in the past - it sees very natural to me to keep a saw nicely vertical from a push orientation, but the wood seemed to take over when I was pulling - though I was thinking that was probably more of an experience thing. |
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Vindingo
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Location: North Jersey Member Since: Jan 2009
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« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2012, 09:12 AM » |
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I prefer Japanese style saws. I have both styles (same price point, so quality isn't the issue): http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=64007&cat=1,42884,68511&ap=1and http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=32937&cat=1,42884I feel like I have much more control with the pull saw. I also have a cheap ryoba saw that I use all the time. I use it to cut 2x material, twigs and branches, scraps of wood, and on wood working projects. I will probably soon invest in a nice ryoba from Hida Tool, and reserve it for wood working tasks. I would recommend looking into a cheap Ryoba saw as opposed to a dozuki because it is much more versatile. As far as the rasp goes, it has a pretty specific function. If you don't shape wood, then you don't need it, regardless of how awesome it is. It seems to me that you are allowing tool purchases to dictate the projects you could possibly do... why not start a project you want to do and figure out your tooling needs from there. I know that the tools I do not really use, are the ones I bought thinking I could use them in the future. It seems like you already have a pretty good arsenal, start making some saw dust!  |
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Kev
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Location: Australia Member Since: Nov 2011
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« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2012, 10:26 AM » |
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I prefer Japanese style saws. I have both styles (same price point, so quality isn't the issue): http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=64007&cat=1,42884,68511&ap=1and http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=32937&cat=1,42884I feel like I have much more control with the pull saw. I also have a cheap ryoba saw that I use all the time. I use it to cut 2x material, twigs and branches, scraps of wood, and on wood working projects. I will probably soon invest in a nice ryoba from Hida Tool, and reserve it for wood working tasks. I would recommend looking into a cheap Ryoba saw as opposed to a dozuki because it is much more versatile. As far as the rasp goes, it has a pretty specific function. If you don't shape wood, then you don't need it, regardless of how awesome it is. It seems to me that you are allowing tool purchases to dictate the projects you could possibly do... why not start a project you want to do and figure out your tooling needs from there. I know that the tools I do not really use, are the ones I bought thinking I could use them in the future. It seems like you already have a pretty good arsenal, start making some saw dust! Probably a surprise to most - but this "need" is mostly project driven!  My son and I are going to make a a small dinghy and I want him to learn with more traditional tools. Rasps, various saws, surforms, etc are actually legitimate needs. A bit of history ... I once had a magnificent collection of tools and got to use them quite often. Probably over the last 15+ years a lot have either been given to my father (the nicer stuff), sold (big stuff) or decayed from the harsh coastal air. Now that I've got the bug back, I really have a big hole to fill ... even though mum has passed and dad is now in care, the "nice stuff" was cashed (don't ask). Anyway, the other day I pulled out a cantilever toolbox that was the last resting place of my files, rasps, punches, etc, etc and effectively found a bucket of rust. I kinda knew this would be the case and wasn't completely surprised as I'd earlier pulled out a crate that had a couple of Stanley and Record hand planes in it ... try as i have ... they're not coming back to serviceable life either  My day job does occupy my days and nights ... but I have been working on several uninteresting things that I just have to get out of the way. Mainly outside frame and panel stuff and next a new kennel, ocean ski storage and more repairs. A front picket fence and side gate are also on the list, but I'm going to sneak the little boat in first. I do have a lot of things in Systainers and I am collecting - but there really is a bit of a plan in there ... particularly the storage and preservation part! The really serious stuff is getting appropriate thought as it will require space investment for proper care and use. The Ryoba saw looks interesting ... think I'll try that path. Bit of fun - I think I found "Japanese Kreg" - look at the picture in this Ebay item ... http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/JAPANESE-Daizo-Mitsukawa-carpenters-SAW-ryoba-nokogiri-/200599201277?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item746b53be21#ht_5606wt_922  |
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Kevin Stricker
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Location: UNITED STATES (US) Member Since: Feb 2009
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« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2012, 11:50 AM » |
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The Shinto rasp you linked to is a very useful tool, for shop use I would get the one with the knob. It's replaced the surform in my shop.
In the discussion of western vs eastern saws, plenty of well known western woodworkers use Japanese pull saws. Traditional pull saws requires resetting and sharpening similar to a western push saw. New impulse hardened pull saws can not be resharpened but continue to cut for much longer than a western saw. If you know how to sharpen and want to spend the time doing so, then a western push saw is an effective tool. Otherwise you will soon end up with a collection of dull tools.
A Dozuki is similar to a western dovetail saw but has a spine that limits the cutting depth. It will give you the straightest cut up to 1-2" deep depending on the saw. The Ryoba is a convenient multi-purpose saw with both ripping and cross cutting teeth, I use one on almost every job. A Kugihiki or flushcut saw is super convenient for trimming shims, plugs, and other cutting tasks where you want to get in close without marking adjacent wood. All three can be had very inexpensively, Shark and Silky offer many varieties, some that fold down into their handles.
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RL
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Location: Canada Member Since: Feb 2010
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« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2012, 12:37 PM » |
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I prefer Japanese style saws. I have both styles (same price point, so quality isn't the issue): http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=64007&cat=1,42884,68511&ap=1and http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=32937&cat=1,42884I feel like I have much more control with the pull saw. I also have a cheap ryoba saw that I use all the time. I use it to cut 2x material, twigs and branches, scraps of wood, and on wood working projects. I will probably soon invest in a nice ryoba from Hida Tool, and reserve it for wood working tasks.
I would recommend looking into a cheap Ryoba saw as opposed to a dozuki because it is much more versatile. As far as the rasp goes, it has a pretty specific function. If you don't shape wood, then you don't need it, regardless of how awesome it is. It seems to me that you are allowing tool purchases to dictate the projects you could possibly do... why not start a project you want to do and figure out your tooling needs from there. I know that the tools I do not really use, are the ones I bought thinking I could use them in the future. It seems like you already have a pretty good arsenal, start making some saw dust! Sorry, got my terminology mixed up. |
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I like green.
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jacko9
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Location: USA Member Since: Apr 2010
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« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2012, 05:49 PM » |
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I'm completely ignorant on these ... I've seen them advertised with a very wide range of prices. Once again Paul Marcel has nudged me into looking at an area of tools that I've neglected caring for when he discussed storing his files, rasps, etc and it got me looking about at various things. As a consequence, I found a lovely looking Japanese rasp on Ebay ... http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Japanese-Rasp-Shinto-double-side-250mm-cutting-blade-file-/200754253352?pt=AU_Hand_Tools&hash=item2ebde2ce28#ht_4711wt_922... now this has got me thinking about the whole Japanese tool thing I've got some nice (cost a lot a long time ago) Japanese chisels, but to be honest I find a well sharpened Marples chisel a better tool (I'm considering some Harold & Saxon's) Is the "Japanese Tool" thing a fashion fad, or do you think there's some must have tools that are unique? Kev, I have several Japanese saws and they have been great using them for over 30 years. I've only had to send one back for sharpening after I purchased them because of my ignorance in using them. I don't know what brand or quality of Japanese chisel you have but my hammer forged Japanese chisels outperform any other chisels I have ever purchased including my Marples mortising chisels. I only work with hard woods and the edge retention is excellent. I have both the Japanese style hand planes and the Record metal hand planes and until recently when one of the "old timers" told me that the chip breaker was only for the export market did I find out how pleasant they were to use. Jack Jack |
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PaulMarcel
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Location: Chandler AZ USA Member Since: Mar 2008
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« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2012, 06:05 PM » |
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Dunno which rasps/files you were noticing, but I love the Iwasaki rasp/files. Dunno if I should call them a rasp (they are fast like one) or file (they cut smoother than one). They have plane teeth on them; stuff comes off clean and smooth especially if you lighten your touch as you get to the final swipes. The Shinto rasp Kevin S. referred to is excellent, too. I got turned on to those from Charles Neil who uses them for shaping cabriole legs; as he'd say, you can make one in a skinny minute with a Shinto rasp. Apparently a skinny minute is a unit of time in the South. I love shaping with the Iwasakis (very reasonably priced; LV carries them as do others). The Shinto is for hogging off fast. As for the Japanese saws, I have several and like them all. I also use the Veritas dovetail Western saws (great price/performance). Even as a kid, I used my dad's panel saw by grabbing the tip and pulling; never made sense to push, but his was dead dull in retrospect. Wish I still had it. Many pull saws from Japan are made for softwoods; they are frequently used in the carpentry trades where they deal with softwoods. Make sure you get one for hardwoods and you'll notice a difference. The Bridge City set of Japanese saws are designed in Japan for hardwoods; you'll kink a blade before dulling it. Kinked blades make great scrapers  They are harder than the Japanese saw files so no sharpening on these. If you want to try a reasonably priced one, try the Shark saw. I have one I use for remodeling casework. It has hit more than a few nails and still works well. It isn't designed for hardwood, though. |
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SRSemenza
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Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
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« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2012, 06:34 PM » |
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I have this (these) with three different blades , course, medium , fine. They are different shapes and lengths as well. I use them in the shop and in my site kit (they fit in Systainers).... http://www.amazon.com/Vaughan-Bushnell-BS240P-Pull-Stroke-Handsaw/dp/B00004Z2WO/ref=dp_cp_ob_hi_title_1 Same handle fits all of them. Not what might be considered a top flight saw but they cut very well. I would recomend them as try out saws even if you end up getting others. I had another common brand ( forget what it was) that was terrible. Tried these and they worked great. The course blade is very course, think cutting framing lumber. Seth |
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Seth R. Semenza
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RonWen
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Location: One of the Thirteen Original Colonies of the United States of America. Member Since: Feb 2009
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« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2012, 10:37 PM » |
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A great discussion!
I have the Shinto style rasps and they work well for hogging stock off, the hand made French rasps are amazing to use -- I wouldn't have thought there could be such a difference in rasps until I tried them. I use (and enjoy) both the western style hand saws and Japanese pull saws depending on the project and my mood.
I haven't tried the Japanese chisels but hopefully I'll get around to them also.
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Kev
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« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2012, 05:07 AM » |
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I'm starting to comprehend how difficult it must be for the US Festool clan ... basically trying to make choices without the touch/feel/play benefit, though be it with something far less valuable !! I'm imagining a hand tool "market" where you can cruise around and try the tools on sample timber - then put them in your trolley Here I am thinking ... Fast action / slow action double sided rasp like tool ... sounds pretty good. Flush saw for cutting plugs ... cool. Short fine 0.3mm pull saw for easy pencil thin cuts ... check, need that. ... and the list its growing each time I review these posts  This may sound dumb - but I've never looked at things like hand saws and rasps and thought "those are good for soft woods and those are good for hard woods". I may be an old dog - but I'm glad I can learn new tricks |
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fdengel
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« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2012, 07:44 AM » |
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I like to start my cuts at the far end of the timber so a push style works better for me.
Not to counter your preference, as I'm sure different tools will sit better with different people -- if you prefer the push saws, great, go for it -- but when I start a cut with a pull saw, I almost always start on the far end of the workpiece... "pulling" towards me... |
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jacko9
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« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2012, 06:30 PM » |
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I'm starting to comprehend how difficult it must be for the US Festool clan ... basically trying to make choices without the touch/feel/play benefit, though be it with something far less valuable !! I'm imagining a hand tool "market" where you can cruise around and try the tools on sample timber - then put them in your trolley Here I am thinking ... Fast action / slow action double sided rasp like tool ... sounds pretty good. Flush saw for cutting plugs ... cool. Short fine 0.3mm pull saw for easy pencil thin cuts ... check, need that. ... and the list its growing each time I review these posts This may sound dumb - but I've never looked at things like hand saws and rasps and thought "those are good for soft woods and those are good for hard woods". I may be an old dog - but I'm glad I can learn new tricks Kev, Japan Woodworker has been displaying their tools on a workbench for trial cutting for the past 35 years. I know these saws, chisels, hand planes, etc are expensive but, after trying them and seeing for yourself how smooth they cut, well you know the rest  |
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