Author Topic: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .  (Read 9296 times)

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Offline abates

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Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« on: August 30, 2017, 10:04 AM »
Hi All, I am looking for a new jigsaw.  Admittedly, I don't use a jig saw frequently, but when I do I need a good one.  I used to have a Bosch that worked well till I "upgraded" to a carvex.  I just sold the carvex and am looking for a new saw.  I don't need to spend the money on the mafell (nor do I want to) but I am willing to if it is the only decent saw on the market. I like to buy the best I can get but I am trying to learn to be more practical and that often the "best" is more about hype and marketing than reality. I often lean toward USA made, Swiss made, or German made tools.  Though I don't want to write off Chinese tools out of hand. I am open to suggestion for an $80 Bosch or whatever, but I need some feedback from people who have used them. Or should I just pull the trigger on the Mafell (and then my wife can pull the trigger on me:) Thanks!

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Online waho6o9

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2017, 10:23 AM »
Hilti is worth considering, but if you want perfection Mafell is the way to go from what I've heard.....

I like my Hilti and Carvex but have never used a Mafell.

Now a word from my betters........

:)


Offline aloysius

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2017, 11:40 AM »
You've not mentioned your preference in jigsaw format:  bodygrip or bow handled, corded or cordless.  Mafell are almost universally regarded as the creme de la creme, but are only available in corded bodygrip only.  It's also lacking some contemporary features/gimmicks such as automatic acceleration, flashing headlights etc.  However if performance is your primary consideration, you'd be hard pressed to find better.

Bosch are also highly regarded.  If heavy cutting in Max thicknesses =\< 6" is your requirement, then this is your machine.  If you prefer cordless body grips then the 18v Metabo has the slimmest (i.e. safest) circumference and those useful but functionally unnecessary headlights & accelerator function.

Without careful assessment of your requirements, it's difficult to make definitive recommendations.  Nevertheless, as you've undoubtedly already discovered, the green alternative offers not just dubious value for your hard earned readies, but rather disappointing performance in comparison to its peers.  My own Trion Saw was extremely disappointing:  expensive, toxic on blade life & incapable of consistently cutting at 90 degrees.
FOG-wit since '95:  Some say since birth...

Offline Dovetail65

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Offline antss

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2017, 07:02 PM »
They all cut wood. 

What are you cutting ?

Offline ScotF

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2017, 01:40 AM »
I have owned and used both versions of Festool, a couple of Bosch (including the JS572) and the Mafell.

The Mafell is hands-down the best jigsaw I have ever used - pristine cuts, square, powerful - pretty much everything you want in a jigsaw except a light (and no D handle if you prefer that style). It has several unique features that may or may not be important - like switching the blade to cut backwards or moving the shoe forward to cut exactly to the end of the machine -- think cuts outs or stopped cuts at the edge of a vertical piece like a wall. It also takes a special blade for square cuts in tight curves. All around a great saw - but not cheap. With most tools I buy, I forget about the price in time and appreciate the tool.

But, I also have the Bosch JS572 and it is also a really nice saw. Not as accurate as the Mafell, but pretty good and much cheaper.

I sold both of my Festools (Trion and Carvex) as I just did not like them as much -- actually I did like the Trion and thought it was very smooth, but I had to thin my herd of 4 jigsaws and I liked the Mafell and Bosch better. The Festool saws were OK, but I had a hard time getting straight and accurate cuts with mine with any consistency and square cuts proved challenging at times, especially when swapping blades and readjusting the blade guides.

Again, all nice saws, but the Mafell and Bosch performed better for me than the FT versions. YMMV.

Offline Cheese

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2017, 03:07 AM »
I also own both the Trion and the Carvex. When cutting 2x materials, they're better than the Milwaukee I previously owned for square cuts, but still rather disappointing after listening to/believing in the Festool marketing hype.

I'm now thinking about putting both of them down the road and picking up the Mafell instead. The only reason I haven't pulled the pin is I prefer the D handle configuration.

I like the Trion because it's so smooth and the Carvex because it has built in lighting. But other than that, the blade guide adjustment on both is a PITA and neither one cuts absolutely square in thick materials.

Offline abates

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2017, 09:47 AM »
Hi all, thanks for pushing me to clarify what I am looking for. My Bosch was a d-handle and I didn't realize until I went to the barrel grip of the carvex that I like the starter and speed control of a trigger switch on the d-handle.  The carvex switch was hard to reach.  But with the start button being what it is, I did like the barrel grip quite a bit.  I guess grip is not a big deal to me.
Gimmicks are not important to me (lights, acceleration before start, etc). Most of the blades I use are small fine cutting wood blades for sink cutouts in counter tops, cutting out electrical access in the back of cabinets, cutting jigs for router templates, or cutting corbels.  I am a professional woodworker, but again, I don't use the jigsaw a ton.  It's just that when I do use it, I want it to work well.  Never had the results that the carvex promised and it seemed like every time I used it I broke two blades from the heat build up on those guides.
 I will continue to think on it.  What I do with a jig saw tells me I only need a cheap tool, but my aversion to cheap tools tells me I need the mafell. Sometimes I hate being a consumer. . .

Offline Jozsef Kozma

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2017, 12:24 PM »
If I would by a jigsaw it would bee a Mafell
But I would never get rid of my carvex cordless
with its attachments :)
For my line of work being cordless is a great help
Jozsef

Offline antss

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2017, 05:20 PM »
For what you described ,one of the Bosch saw should be more than adequate.

Sure,  the Mafel is better . But it comes at a price , which you seem to have reservations about. Nothing wrong with that; but this is like everything else . Rarely will you find a high quality widget at a cut rate price.

The Bosch represents a good value , and why they likely outsell the other two German brands ten to one.

Offline Kev

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2017, 05:37 PM »
If I was buying another jigsaw and I didn't want it to be cordless and I didn't want it to fit in a CMS module and I didn't care that there was no warranty support for it in Oz ... I'd seriously consider the Mafell.

On reputation the Mafell seems the most capable, but I've never put my hands on one!

 

Offline Holmz

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2017, 08:22 PM »
If I was buying another jigsaw and I didn't want it to be cordless and I didn't want it to fit in a CMS module and I didn't care that there was no warranty support for it in Oz ... I'd seriously consider the Mafell.

On reputation the Mafell seems the most capable, but I've never put my hands on one!

And if one is OK with a barrel grip.
And if one is OK with getting it flown in from Germany.

In 230v land it seems ideal, but I would suggest a Bosch may be enough for most things.

The p1cc is a nice jig saw, and I was cutting the cement board with the hitachi carbide tipped blades last weekend.

One feature that is nice is putting the bade in backwards. This came in handy when I needed to make an electrical hole next to a wall (~4"away) as I was able to run the saw backwards for 1/2 of the hole.
That feature is only available with a p1cc. Whether one needs that is another story, and if I had planned ahead then I would not have needed to make the hole in-situ.

Offline pettyconstruction

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2017, 09:37 PM »
I like my Trion


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Offline abates

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2017, 03:39 PM »
OK, so I have whittled it down to the Mafell p1cc or the Bosch JS572eb.  Does anyone have any thoughts about this comparison.  The Bosch is Swiss made.  I handled it in the store today and while it looks nice, the blade release handle looks like it will break at some point and tilting the base was kind of a PITA.  But I like the light, I like the Swissiness of it, and I like the price.  Now, I spoke to a Mafell dealer and I REALLY LIKE that the saw is meant to be repaired.  That is, if something goes wrong, parts are available vs throwing it away and buying a new one.  I like the tilting base feature.  I am still dubious about the hype of the "no-guide" system.  If I hazard a guess, a fresh blade will yield square cuts on most saws. . . And at 3x the price of the Bosch, well, you understand my hesitation.  Someone talk me into something please!

Offline abates

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2017, 04:13 PM »
Thanks John, I think you are correct. 

Offline Holmz

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2017, 06:16 PM »
I was going to talk you into the Bosch too.
But now I need to take the contrarian stance.

It has the best guide system (which is idiot proof with no guides).
You can even out the blade in backwards and cuts in reverse)
A great angle base.
Takes the extra wide Mafell blades which are flex free.
The circle attachment works.

The only "extra" is the angle base.

You cannot wrong with either.
But the p1cc will not have you wondering... It is a stunning tool.

Offline ScotF

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2017, 06:30 PM »
I have both of these saws and like them both - I think I gave some high-level comparisons in an earlier post. The Mafell is hands-down the best saw and the no blade guides is NOT a gimmick. The mechanism holds the blade securely and different than other tools. The plunge mechanism is much more robust than any other saw I have seen and this machine is just quality all around - the base is machined square, the bottom is machined to mate perfectly with the angle base, the DC is better than anything out there for a jigsaw, it comes with a parallel guide that works and also acts as a small circle cutter and I can go on and on.

Nothing wrong with the Bosch - I like it and use it - but I use it more for rough work if I do not want to mess up the Mafell like cutting stone or steel, etc... Not that the Mafell could not handle it, but I try to relegate it to wood-cutting duties only. I can do joinery-quality cuts with this thing.

Here are some videos of this saw in action I filmed after I got it...






Offline Cheese

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2017, 06:55 PM »
If I hazard a guess, a fresh blade will yield square cuts on most saws. . .

Unfortunately no...I proved that to myself on the Milwaukee, on the Carvex and on the Trion. This is especially the case as the stock gets thicker or if you're cutting circles or rounding corners on tables or countertops. As you side load the saw the blade flexes and the cut is no longer square. 


Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2017, 07:14 PM »
Please understand that this post is not attacking any brand.  Nor am I attacking the ability of individuals to operate whatever saws they operate.

After reading so many posts here about jigsaws I honestly amazed at the amount of money that people spend for them.  Whatever brand.  Looking for the holy grail of perfect cuts, dust collection, perpendicularity, etc.

The tool operates a a blade that is usually only supported at the top and that cuts thru the workpiece vertically.  It is designed to cut cuts and follow a line.  The hand that controls the tool is located aft of the blade.  When cutting curves - especially cutting tighter curves - if you are not pivoting directly over the blade there will be a tendency to sweep and deflect the blade.  This is true for any blade.  Manufacturers had tried to counter this by placing knobs on top of the saws over the blades to help pivot it.  The have come with blade support mechanisms.  They have come up with thicker or specially shaped blades.

To get the most out of any jigsaw you own you need to learn to pivot it and turn it on the axis of the blade.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 07:19 PM by Peter Halle »

Offline Holmz

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2017, 08:12 PM »
...
To get the most out of any jigsaw you own you need to learn to pivot it and turn it on the axis of the blade.

Peter

Very good point Peter.

There are enough idiot-proof features (like the lack of guides) on the saw in question that make it easier.
But I could also likely stand having greater level of skill.

Whether that saw is needed is uncertain, but my reasoning was that I wanted every advantage to help ease the process.
At this point it is becoming a bit difficult for me to keep blaming the equipment on lack of quality results... [blink]

Offline rst

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2017, 08:33 PM »
A awful lot of jigsaw problems is, in my (not so humble.. 50 years of experience) opinion, is user error and expectations.  When I use my 40 year old Skilsaw, I'm shoving thru thru hard because I know that it will cut anything from steel to concrete.  What I don't expect is for it to give me a cut that will be within 1-2mm for start to finish.  I also have a 30 some year old Bosch that I have cut aluminum, glass, wood, and steel.  I have the two Carvex', corded and cordless and both cut to my expectations.  I use my tools to make parts for commercial refrigeration part replacements and they work great for me. I have made thousands of $s worth of parts in the last ten years and I have no complaints regarding anything I've fabricated in that time frame. 

Offline ScotF

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2017, 08:49 PM »
I agree that practice is a key part of any woodworking process and I also agree that you need to have the right expectations for what a tool can and cannot do. For me I need as accurate a cut as possible on certain joints in furniture. Other methods may require lots of jigs or I just do not feel safe using that method. In these scenarios the right jigsaw works very well. So it provides me with value for what it does. Might not be the same for other users and some folks only want to spend a certain amount for the tool. All understandable and that is why it is good for lots of options in the market. 

Offline rizzoa13

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2017, 09:13 PM »
Every time I pick up the t-loc for my P1CC I smile because using it is enjoyable. I've had plenty of other jigsaws and every time I'd go to grab them I'd grimace. That's not really a metric you can put a dollar sign to, but I put a lot of stock in my happiness so take it for what it is.

Offline abates

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2017, 09:47 AM »
So I went ahead and bought the Mafell.  I figured I had most of the money from selling my Carvex, I only had to chip in the extra 260 (which bought me the angling base and a small track and shipping).  A few questions for those of you who own one, does it get pretty warm when you are using it?  I bought one from the UK, 110v 50hz but was told by the seller that Mafell uses universal motor that works on 120 and 60hz.  But I was cutting out some corbels yesterday and noticed it was warmer than I remember a jigsaw being.  I am probably being hyper vigilant because it is an expensive jigsaw.  Any feed back would help.  Cheers,
Abe

Offline ScotF

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2017, 10:55 AM »
Barrel grip saws can get warm, especially when working them hard. I do not think mine has gotten uncomfortably warm, but it definitely warms up on the handle and the knob. It is the same with every other barrel grip saw that I have used. I would not worry too much about it unless it is too hot to even handle.

Offline Cheese

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2017, 12:33 PM »
But I was cutting out some corbels yesterday and noticed it was warmer than I remember a jigsaw being.  I am probably being hyper vigilant because it is an expensive jigsaw.  Any feed back would help.  Cheers,

I was using mine this weekend to cut some 5/16" aluminum plate. It did get warm but not unpleasantly so, I chalked it up to just being the nature of the beast.

Offline abates

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2017, 10:16 AM »
So I am really enjoying the jig saw.  It has been very useful on my install last week.  I do miss the led light though. Anyone have thoughts on adding a light to a jig saw? 

Offline bobfog

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2017, 10:56 AM »
I recently picked up the Mafell for a bargain price on eBay. I also have the Bosch 160(UK model). My opinion, it’s a lovely tool, and a pleasure to use. But there is absolutely nothing it can do for my required usage, that I can’t do with the Bosch. So I’ll probably sell on at a profit.

Offline Steven Owen

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2017, 01:28 AM »
Hi all, thanks for pushing me to clarify what I am looking for. My Bosch was a d-handle and I didn't realize until I went to the barrel grip of the carvex that I like the starter and speed control of a trigger switch on the d-handle.  The carvex switch was hard to reach.  But with the start button being what it is, I did like the barrel grip quite a bit.  I guess grip is not a big deal to me.
Gimmicks are not important to me (lights, acceleration before start, etc). Most of the blades I use are small fine cutting wood blades for sink cutouts in counter tops, cutting out electrical access in the back of cabinets, cutting jigs for router templates, or cutting corbels.  I am a professional woodworker, but again, I don't use the jigsaw a ton.  It's just that when I do use it, I want it to work well.  Never had the results that the carvex promised and it seemed like every time I used it I broke two blades from the heat build up on those guides.
 I will continue to think on it.  What I do with a jig saw tells me I only need a cheap tool, but my aversion to cheap tools tells me I need the mafell. Sometimes I hate being a consumer. . .

Abates:

Don’t overthink yourself into a corner either.  You’re not a heavy Jig Saw user.  We’re all guilty of making purchases that are largely driven by our egos rather than by necessity. 

The Mafell Jigsaw is the best of the best.  It’s designed for people who are using their jig saws on a daily basis for regular project work.  They need the speed the Mafell offers to finish projects on tight deadlines.  They make a living with their tools so tools that save time are valuable to their work. 

The Bosch 572 is a Mafell made jig saw.  It shares a lot of parts with the pricier Mafell version.  The 572 can cut just an cleanly as the Mafell with a high quality blade but not at full throttle. It will take you longer to make a clean cut with the 572.

You can use the Mafell track with the Bosch 572 track adapter from Europe.

The biggest benfit of the Mafell is its speed.  It cuts accurately at blazing fast speeds.  A cut that takes 3 minutes on the Bosch 572, the Mafell can do the same cut in a minute and a half.

Your project won’t look any better and your cuts will not be any cleaner because you used the Mafell over the Bosch 572 or the Festool Carvex.
Festool CT Midi, Festool ETS 125, DF 700 Domino Coming Soon

Offline Holmz

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2017, 01:38 AM »
...
...  The Bosch 572 is...
track...

Does the same angle foot go onto the 572? (I am not sure if that was the Bosch Jiggy I was looking at or if it is a newer release).
The foot looks identical...

As to the tracks, I believe that they are made by Bosch... One either gets the red printed Mafell version of the Bosch rail, or the same rail with teal coloured printing that says Bosch.
Mine are teal as "in country" they sold them... and there was free shipping.
The tools do not seem to care a lot about the colour/color.

The tracks are good, and the joining connector and clamps can be gotten with a bag.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1256
Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2017, 03:20 AM »
The Bosch 572 is a Mafell made jig saw.  It shares a lot of parts with the pricier Mafell version.
P1 is made in house in Oberndorf just like most of Mafell tools. Its a small company with less then 300 employees. JS572 is made at Bosch factory in Switzerland. Other than both being barrel grip I can't think of anything that is similar between these saws.
You might be thinking about MT55 and GKT55. Those are indeed similar and one is made under licence.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2017, 09:56 AM by Svar »

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline McNally Family

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2017, 04:15 AM »
So I went ahead and bought the Mafell.  I figured I had most of the money from selling my Carvex, I only had to chip in the extra 260 (which bought me the angling base and a small track and shipping).  A few questions for those of you who own one, does it get pretty warm when you are using it?  I bought one from the UK, 110v 50hz but was told by the seller that Mafell uses universal motor that works on 120 and 60hz.  But I was cutting out some corbels yesterday and noticed it was warmer than I remember a jigsaw being.  I am probably being hyper vigilant because it is an expensive jigsaw.  Any feed back would help.  Cheers,
Abe

Congratulations on your new jigsaw purchase! 
GREEN: In order of purchase = | CT26 w/Installer Cleaning Set |  RS 2 E | Hose w/ Sleeve 3.5m | 115mm X 226mm Hand Sanding Block | 80mm X 133mm Hand Sanding Block | HSK D21.5 5m hose | CT Boom Arm Bundle Set | 1080 Plate for custom MFT | OF 1400 EQ Router (metric) w/accessories | SYS-Rock BR10 | Cordless Sanders RTSC 400 Set, DTSC 400 Basic | Linear Sander LS 130 | PDC 18/4 set | Next purchase: TBD

RED: // Mafell P1cc  //  MT55cc  // Next purchase: TBD

Offline Steven Owen

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2017, 04:01 PM »
...
...  The Bosch 572 is...
track...

Does the same angle foot go onto the 572? (I am not sure if that was the Bosch Jiggy I was looking at or if it is a newer release).
The foot looks identical...

As to the tracks, I believe that they are made by Bosch... One either gets the red printed Mafell version of the Bosch rail, or the same rail with teal coloured printing that says Bosch.
Mine are teal as "in country" they sold them... and there was free shipping.
The tools do not seem to care a lot about the colour/color.

The tracks are good, and the joining connector and clamps can be gotten with a bag.

Bosch and Mafell collaborate on a lot of tools.  It’s good for many of us on tigher budgets that can more easily afford to buy the blue versions.

Unfortunately I don’t believe you can put the Mafell footing on the 572 without doing some modifications yourself.

Festool CT Midi, Festool ETS 125, DF 700 Domino Coming Soon

Offline antss

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2017, 04:55 PM »
Which tools besides the xxt55 are they collaborating on ?  After a quick browse of bith catalogs , nothing jumps out at me.

A Festool buyout of Mafell makes little economic sense.  There is much product overlap and Festool isn't big enough to assimilate a similar operation like Mafell and see any kind of sizable return by shutting the doors and eliminating competition.    Mafell's spcialty tools that FT doesn't have like morticers, groovers , ect.... don't really offer a growth market either. So, an acquisition for diversification doesn't look promising either.

Offline Holmz

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2017, 05:12 PM »
So I am really enjoying the jig saw.  It has been very useful on my install last week.  I do miss the led light though. Anyone have thoughts on adding a light to a jig saw?

https://www.wildearth.com.au/buy/black-diamond-icon-headlamp-black-500-lumens/BD620629BLAKALL1

Offline Steven Owen

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2017, 10:01 PM »
Which tools besides the xxt55 are they collaborating on ?  After a quick browse of bith catalogs , nothing jumps out at me.

A Festool buyout of Mafell makes little economic sense.  There is much product overlap and Festool isn't big enough to assimilate a similar operation like Mafell and see any kind of sizable return by shutting the doors and eliminating competition.    Mafell's spcialty tools that FT doesn't have like morticers, groovers , ect.... don't really offer a growth market either. So, an acquisition for diversification doesn't look promising either.

Several the higher priced Bosch Jig Saws and Bosch Sanders have Mafell parts.  Several motors in in different Bosch saws use some Mafell technology. 

Stanley bought Dewalt, Porter Cable and Black and Decker.  There’s lot’s of duplicate skus there.  None of the business lines are hurting.  Technology is traded across the brands to reduce costs when it makes sense. 

A lot of battery technologies designed by Black and Decker are used by Dewalt and Porter Cable.  Several saw and motor designs are shared between Dewalt and Delta.

Bosch might be the one to buy Mafell one day.  Festool would be a better parent than Bosch.  At least Festool understands the high-end tool market.  Bosch has a shareholder culture which never good for a small and beloved brand.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 02:51 AM by Steven Owen »
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Offline Holmz

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Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2017, 05:38 AM »
Which tools besides the xxt55 are they collaborating on ?  After a quick browse of bith catalogs , nothing jumps out at me.

A Festool buyout of Mafell makes little economic sense.  There is much product overlap and Festool isn't big enough to assimilate a similar operation like Mafell and see any kind of sizable return by shutting the doors and eliminating competition.    Mafell's spcialty tools that FT doesn't have like morticers, groovers , ect.... don't really offer a growth market either. So, an acquisition for diversification doesn't look promising either.

A) Several the higher priced Bosch Jig Saws and Bosch Sanders have Mafell parts.  Several motors in in different Bosch saws use some Mafell technology. 

B) Stanley bought Dewalt, Porter Cable and Black and Decker.  There’s lot’s of duplicate skus there.  None of the business lines are hurting.  Technology is traded across the brands to reduce costs when it makes sense. 

C) A lot of battery technologies designed by Black and Decker are used by Dewalt and Porter Cable.  Several saw and motor designs are shared between Dewalt and Delta.

D) Bosch might be the one to buy Mafell one day.  Festool would be a better parent than Bosch.  At least Festool understands the high-end tool market.  Bosch has a shareholder culture which never good for a small and beloved brand.

I labeled those.
A - which tools? The GKT55 and MT55? What else?

A - What does a fact of B have to do in any way with the arguments of set A

A - - What does a fact of C have to do in any way with the arguments of set A

D - Better parent in what sense? I do not think a 100 year old respected company needs a parent.
It is like convincing them that they need a master...

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 290
Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2017, 12:24 PM »
Which tools besides the xxt55 are they collaborating on ?  After a quick browse of bith catalogs , nothing jumps out at me.

A Festool buyout of Mafell makes little economic sense.  There is much product overlap and Festool isn't big enough to assimilate a similar operation like Mafell and see any kind of sizable return by shutting the doors and eliminating competition.    Mafell's spcialty tools that FT doesn't have like morticers, groovers , ect.... don't really offer a growth market either. So, an acquisition for diversification doesn't look promising either.

A) Several the higher priced Bosch Jig Saws and Bosch Sanders have Mafell parts.  Several motors in in different Bosch saws use some Mafell technology. 

B) Stanley bought Dewalt, Porter Cable and Black and Decker.  There’s lot’s of duplicate skus there.  None of the business lines are hurting.  Technology is traded across the brands to reduce costs when it makes sense. 

C) A lot of battery technologies designed by Black and Decker are used by Dewalt and Porter Cable.  Several saw and motor designs are shared between Dewalt and Delta.

D) Bosch might be the one to buy Mafell one day.  Festool would be a better parent than Bosch.  At least Festool understands the high-end tool market.  Bosch has a shareholder culture which never good for a small and beloved brand.

I labeled those.
A - which tools? The GKT55 and MT55? What else?

A - What does a fact of B have to do in any way with the arguments of set A

A - - What does a fact of C have to do in any way with the arguments of set A

D - Better parent in what sense? I do not think a 100 year old respected company needs a parent.
It is like convincing them that they need a master...

I’m not telling you it will happen.  The possibility is always there.  No ever believed Porter Cable would sell out to Stanley.  No one would have ever thought Freud would become part of Bosch.

Consolidation is just a fact of life in many businesses.  If asked my if Apple would buy Beats 5 years ago, I would’ve told you no way.

The number one rule in business, “everything is for sale at the right price.”


 
Festool CT Midi, Festool ETS 125, DF 700 Domino Coming Soon

Offline Tommy2000

  • Posts: 2
Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2018, 11:51 PM »
In my experience,
The Festool is also a saw which helps in the boosting the speed and the productivity of the work It helps in gaining more efficiency and bring proper and more precision to the work.

The Festools are considered to have better services as compared to the Mafells and this is the reason people tend to shift towards the Festools.


Therefore, I high recommended Festool Jagsaw, Hope can help you.

Reference source: Festool Jagsaw review

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 4210
Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2018, 12:09 AM »
In my experience it’s all what you need. Cutting 3/4” or thinner material...the Carvex and Trion are fine. I own both and prefer the Trion unless you’re cutting in the dark where the Carvex excels.
Now the Mafell...ah the Mafell...it’s the best of the best...cutting 2” timber and the cut line is within 1/2 degree or less of perpendicularity. If you are cutting 1” timber, perpendicularity would be expected to be in the 1/4 degree range.

Offline ScotF

  • Posts: 2431
Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2018, 12:13 AM »
In my experience it’s all what you need. Cutting 3/4” or thinner material...the Carvex and Trion are fine. I own both and prefer the Trion unless you’re cutting in the dark where the Carvex excels.
Now the Mafell...ah the Mafell...it’s the best of the best...cutting 2” timber and the cut line is within 1/2 degree or less of perpendicularity. If you are cutting 1” timber, perpendicularity would be expected to be in the 1/4 degree range.

Yes - the Mafell is the best of the best, no question. I have owned and used them all and I no longer have a Festool in my arsenal. I like d the Trion too. Carvex just never did it for me...even though I liked the concept and the different bases. Not cutting straight or square makes the other features not so important.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 4210
Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2018, 12:26 AM »
Not cutting straight or square makes the other features not so important.

Amen...stated better than I could ever say. 🙏

Offline Rip Van Winkle

  • Posts: 292
Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2018, 03:40 PM »
Which tools besides the xxt55 are they collaborating on ?  After a quick browse of bith catalogs , nothing jumps out at me.

A Festool buyout of Mafell makes little economic sense.  There is much product overlap and Festool isn't big enough to assimilate a similar operation like Mafell and see any kind of sizable return by shutting the doors and eliminating competition.    Mafell's spcialty tools that FT doesn't have like morticers, groovers , ect.... don't really offer a growth market either. So, an acquisition for diversification doesn't look promising either.

Several the higher priced Bosch Jig Saws and Bosch Sanders have Mafell parts.  Several motors in in different Bosch saws use some Mafell technology. 

Stanley bought Dewalt, Porter Cable and Black and Decker.  There’s lot’s of duplicate skus there.  None of the business lines are hurting.  Technology is traded across the brands to reduce costs when it makes sense. 

A lot of battery technologies designed by Black and Decker are used by Dewalt and Porter Cable.  Several saw and motor designs are shared between Dewalt and Delta.

Bosch might be the one to buy Mafell one day.  Festool would be a better parent than Bosch.  At least Festool understands the high-end tool market.  Bosch has a shareholder culture which never good for a small and beloved brand.

Bosch actually has a special corporate structure of a type used in Europe that I believe is used to avoid taxes. If I’m not mistaken, a large part of the company is actually considered a charity, woth different types of stock, and well paid advisors from different sectors who do not own stock but advise the company on future plans. A large percentage of Bosch’s profits suppossedly get reinvested in the company for research and development. Robert Bosch’s heirs supposedly earn dividends, that allow them to live comfortably but not obscenely. Ikea from what I understand has a similar corporate structural setup.

Bosch may not currently be known for “high-end” tools, but before Festool started to be widely adopted in the USA, Bosch was one if the main manufacturers of “professional” or “industrial” quality tools that were sold in the USA. The Bosch tool line was probably one of the most extensive from any manufacturer available, and owning Bosch tools would probably get you looked at the same way Festool tools would get you looked at now.

Bosch didn’t just manufacture standard Home Depot or Lowes level tools. The company manufactured dpecialty tools, like a cordless rotary shear that cost close to $1000, electric hand tapper “drills” that cost $600, sheet metal shears that could cost $1,400, etc. A number of more common tools had specialty attachments that made them more versatile, similar to what Festool currently does, and Elu used to do. Bosch also manufactured a number of specialty pneumatic tools for industrial use, and may still, as well as specialty tools to industrial assembly, as well as high frequency power tools, that are not going to be used outside of Industrial manufacturing facilities.

Offline sustad

  • Posts: 1
Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2018, 06:04 PM »
Which saw has the best dust extraction?

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 547
Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2018, 06:07 PM »
In my experience it’s all what you need. Cutting 3/4” or thinner material...the Carvex and Trion are fine. I own both and prefer the Trion unless you’re cutting in the dark where the Carvex excels.
Now the Mafell...ah the Mafell...it’s the best of the best...cutting 2” timber and the cut line is within 1/2 degree or less of perpendicularity. If you are cutting 1” timber, perpendicularity would be expected to be in the 1/4 degree range.

Yes - the Mafell is the best of the best, no question. I have owned and used them all and I no longer have a Festool in my arsenal. I like d the Trion too. Carvex just never did it for me...even though I liked the concept and the different bases. Not cutting straight or square makes the other features not so important.

I'll double-down on the Mafell option. There really is no choice. I'll add that the Trion is better than the Carvex. I bought the Carvex for the bases and promptly returned it because it did not perform as well as the Trion. Followed that up with Mafell and have bought several other Mafell tools since.

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 547
Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2018, 06:12 PM »
Which tools besides the xxt55 are they collaborating on ?  After a quick browse of bith catalogs , nothing jumps out at me.

A Festool buyout of Mafell makes little economic sense.  There is much product overlap and Festool isn't big enough to assimilate a similar operation like Mafell and see any kind of sizable return by shutting the doors and eliminating competition.    Mafell's spcialty tools that FT doesn't have like morticers, groovers , ect.... don't really offer a growth market either. So, an acquisition for diversification doesn't look promising either.

A buyout of Mafell by Bosch or Festool would be a disaster for the customer's. The product line is small without much overlap and is more expensive than anything offered by either. The price's will never come down and the quality would most likely fall off as the company's exacting standards would have to compromised to fit into the bulk production that Bosch and Festool have.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 4210
Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2018, 06:31 PM »
Which saw has the best dust extraction?

The Mafell also has a blower on board so from one side of the base, it directs air across the blade/cut line and the vac port on the other side of the base then evacuates the sawdust.  [cool]

Offline mrB

  • Posts: 442
Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #47 on: March 27, 2018, 02:27 AM »
If you can't get perfect results with a Festool Trion you're using it wrong!  It's the smoothest most accurate Jigsaw I've ever used, i simply don't know how it could cut any better!

I've never used the maffel, i used bosch until i bought/discovered the Trion 6/7 years ago. Used other decently priced bosch & makita since...  I'd take my trion any day of the week!

The underating of this tool on this forum is a source of constant bemusement to me.
there's nothing like the right tool for the job

Offline VaDimZH

  • Posts: 177
Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #48 on: March 29, 2018, 04:48 PM »
If you can't get perfect results with a Festool Trion you're using it wrong!  It's the smoothest most accurate Jigsaw I've ever used, i simply don't know how it could cut any better!

I've never used the maffel, i used bosch until i bought/discovered the Trion 6/7 years ago. Used other decently priced bosch & makita since...  I'd take my trion any day of the week!

The underating of this tool on this forum is a source of constant bemusement to me.

Absolutely egree!
I had Bosch JS572 jigsaw and have Trion.
I compare them side by side,
cut so many times,check how accurate they cut,how precise...
the Bosch JS572 was sold.
The Trion is my best jigsaw!

Offline Job and Knock

  • Posts: 117
Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #49 on: April 15, 2018, 08:31 AM »
Bosch may not currently be known for “high-end” tools, but before Festool started to be widely adopted in the USA, Bosch was one if the main manufacturers of “professional” or “industrial” quality tools that were sold in the USA. The Bosch tool line was probably one of the most extensive from any manufacturer available, and owning Bosch tools would probably get you looked at the same way Festool tools would get you looked at now.
Maybe in the USA, but didn't Bosch get a bunk-up by buying Stanley Power Tools in the early 1980s?

With more than 40 years of trade use of Bosch I have to say that the statement, "...owning Bosch tools would probably get you looked at the same way Festool tools would get you looked at now". never applied in Europe. As a joiner that "crown" in the 1970s and 80s was most certainly held by Elu, creator of the plunge router, who's tools back in the 1980s pretty well all had dust extraction, too - unlike the Milwaukees, Black & Deckers and Porter-Cables of the day (and we did see them here in the UK until the mid-1970s). For drills and grinders, though, Metabo was the brand many people held in highest regard. Festool and Mafell were practically unknown outside of Germany before the 1990s (or at least I never saw any for sale or in use when living in the Benelux in that period, and they never made much of an impact in the UK, either). Out of interest in the 1970s and 80s many of Bosch's corded drills were actually being made by Holz-Her (power tool division now part of Festool) as well as some of the circular saws. In return it appears that Bosch were selling jigsaw gearboxes to a lot of other firms. In fact the relationships between the German power tool manufacturers has long been fairly incestuous with Metabo, Kress, Holz-Her, Mafell and even Bosch all having made tools for others; my first Hilti recip saw (late 1990s) was made by Bosch, my current Hilti WSC-85 rip saw is actually a Mafell and my Swiss-made Elus were produced by Scintilla (also the worlds largest jigsaw blade manufacturer) - a part of Robert Bosch.....

The difference is that the Germans pretty much concentrated on supplying industrial and trade users - so the quality was always pretty high. US manufacturers appear to have gotten into a downward spiral of price and quality much earlier. Nowadays, though, standards appear to be falling with Bosch stuff
« Last Edit: April 15, 2018, 08:37 AM by Job and Knock »
Simplicity is the embodiment of purity and unity
- Shaker Maxims

Offline rst

  • Posts: 1760
Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #50 on: April 15, 2018, 04:40 PM »
Higher end tools were,and are still not the norm here in the US.  I chalk this up to what I call "trunk slammers", They lost their jobs, so went to Sears and bought a square, a $25.00 circular saw, and a tape measure and now they are "contractors".  Unless you were exposed to quality tools by being employed in commercial/industrial jobs, you were never exposed to quality tools for years.

Offline Rip Van Winkle

  • Posts: 292
Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #51 on: April 15, 2018, 08:55 PM »
Bosch may not currently be known for “high-end” tools, but before Festool started to be widely adopted in the USA, Bosch was one if the main manufacturers of “professional” or “industrial” quality tools that were sold in the USA. The Bosch tool line was probably one of the most extensive from any manufacturer available, and owning Bosch tools would probably get you looked at the same way Festool tools would get you looked at now.
Maybe in the USA, but didn't Bosch get a bunk-up by buying Stanley Power Tools in the early 1980s?

With more than 40 years of trade use of Bosch I have to say that the statement, "...owning Bosch tools would probably get you looked at the same way Festool tools would get you looked at now". never applied in Europe. As a joiner that "crown" in the 1970s and 80s was most certainly held by Elu, creator of the plunge router, who's tools back in the 1980s pretty well all had dust extraction, too - unlike the Milwaukees, Black & Deckers and Porter-Cables of the day (and we did see them here in the UK until the mid-1970s). For drills and grinders, though, Metabo was the brand many people held in highest regard. Festool and Mafell were practically unknown outside of Germany before the 1990s (or at least I never saw any for sale or in use when living in the Benelux in that period, and they never made much of an impact in the UK, either). Out of interest in the 1970s and 80s many of Bosch's corded drills were actually being made by Holz-Her (power tool division now part of Festool) as well as some of the circular saws. In return it appears that Bosch were selling jigsaw gearboxes to a lot of other firms. In fact the relationships between the German power tool manufacturers has long been fairly incestuous with Metabo, Kress, Holz-Her, Mafell and even Bosch all having made tools for others; my first Hilti recip saw (late 1990s) was made by Bosch, my current Hilti WSC-85 rip saw is actually a Mafell and my Swiss-made Elus were produced by Scintilla (also the worlds largest jigsaw blade manufacturer) - a part of Robert Bosch.....

The difference is that the Germans pretty much concentrated on supplying industrial and trade users - so the quality was always pretty high. US manufacturers appear to have gotten into a downward spiral of price and quality much earlier. Nowadays, though, standards appear to be falling with Bosch stuff


Bosch as far as I’m aware never had anything to do with Stanley or their older power tool division, which stanley divested itself of multiple decades ago.
Bosch did have a joint centure with the Emerson Electric Company, who at that point owned the Skil power tool Corporation, which Bosch later Took over. Skil had manufacturing divisions in the USA and various parts of Europe, including the Netherlands. The partnership in Emerson was cslled the S-B Power Tool Co., which presumably stood for Skil Bosch Power Tools. During this period, Bosch tools sold in the USA might be the European made Bosch Tool models, usually the ‘blue’ ‘professional’ models, although some ‘green’ DIY  models were also sold in the USA, but in the ’blue’ bosch color. Other Bosch models such as jigsaws and grinders were made in the USA, but using the exact same designs as the European made Bosch tools. There were some European tools that never made it to the USA, and some USA made Bosch tools, like the 1617 series routers, that I don’t believe were sold in Europe. As far as the Skil branded tools went, the worm drive circular saws models were mostly left as is. Other Skil tools were also still made in the USA, usially simpler, less fancy, lower cost, models that lacked fancy adjustments found on similar European Bosch tools. For instance Bosch sold a decently adjustable biscuit jointer that was designed to take on Porter Cable or Dewalt models, whereas the Skil biscuit jointer had a much dimpler fence, and seemed designed more for basic factory furniture joinery. The same applied to heavier right angle random orbit sanders both companies sold. Some other Skil tools that were sold in the USA were European made ‘green’ Bosch tools that were more for the DIY market.

As far as Bosch being a top of the line “professional” brand, that information for the 70s, 80s, and 90s, came from older professional woodworkers I knew, and what they recommended, as well as the Whole Earth Catalogue, which mention Bosch being top of the line for power tools along with Milwaukee, and companies like Ridgid and Rothenberger for plumbing tools. The local tool repair place that was an official repair center for most major brands alsio used to recommend Bosch and Milwaukee.

As to Hilti, up until the 90s did they even make their own power tools other than their rotary hammers? I’ve seen older Hilti power tools that appear to be rebrands  from other makers, including drills that were identical to Metabo models exept for color, saws and grinders that might have been from Bosch, and a screw gun that apoeared to be a USA made Porter Cable model. The distinctive Hilti tools, that I presume were actually made by Hilti, were the 90s models, from when Hilti turned up in Home Depot in the USA, and presumably a few years before that in Europe. Many of those tools were manufactured in Lichtenstein, and had very distinctive features, and looks, that set them apart from other power tool brands being sold. The jigsaws had self contained dust collectors, as did some of the smaller rotary hammers, the corcular saw was a worm/hypoid drive track saw, the screw guns were made for collated screw adapters, as well as having other unusual features, the top of the line cordless drill had three speeds back when two was usual etc.
Alledgedly, Hiltis venture into selling a wider variety of innovative power tools didn’t go great, and they didn’t move enough tools for it to be really profitable. Hilti has since dropped a bunch if the innovative designs for simpler models, and moved production to China for those models in a joint venture with Panasonic.


Online Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3256
Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #52 on: April 16, 2018, 01:31 AM »
"According to the history section of the Bosch U.S. website, in 1980 "Robert Bosch Power Tool Corporation [was] established in New Bern, NC through acquisition of the power tools division of The Stanley Works, a leading U.S. producer of hardware and tools.""

Offline Job and Knock

  • Posts: 117
Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #53 on: April 16, 2018, 05:30 PM »
Bosch as far as I’m aware never had anything to do with Stanley or their older power tool division, which stanley divested itself of multiple decades ago.
As Michael pointed out, Bosch did indeed take-over Stanley's power tool division in 1980 as well as its' international subsidiaried - and in the UK that sounded the death knell for both the Stanley Power Tools factory in Workington and later for the router cutter factory at Cramlingham. In the USA Bosch continued to manufacture the Stanley lines of tools, initially branded "Stanley Power Tools, a division of Robert Bosch" and later just as "Bosch" In terms of routers many of the design features seen in earlier Stanleys were refined and continued into the first generation of Bosch routers (models 1601 to 1606) which were almost certainly already fully or partly developed by Stanley before the sale. The only routers from that period with any European heritage were the 1608 and 1609 laminate trimmers which were an amalgam of the "standard" Bosch grinder motor (already in use in 500 to 600 watt plunge routers in Europe - incidentally the only routers they made prior to the Stanley purchase) and the Stanley laminate trimmer base.

There were some European tools that never made it to the USA, and some USA made Bosch tools, like the 1617 series routers, that I don’t believe were sold in Europe.
The 1617 routers were/are sold in Europe as the GOF1400/GMF1400, but they aren't really popular as when compared to equivalent local market models they are larger and heavier with poor dust extraction, not to mention very expensive (at least in Benelux and UK markets). I actually own a 1618 (a magnesium model, no less) and in comparison to an older Elu OF97e (now called deWalt DW621/622) it is big, heavy, clumsy and generally nowhere near as nice a tool to use - even when installed in that grossly oversized plunge base. That design underlines the major difference between US and European router usage - in Europe plunge routers reign supreme with very few fixed base routers being sold

Alledgedly, Hiltis venture into selling a wider variety of innovative power tools didn’t go great, and they didn’t move enough tools for it to be really profitable. Hilti has since dropped a bunch if the innovative designs for simpler models, and moved production to China for those models in a joint venture with Panasonic.
You can say that again. I know from personal experience that there were some major design and manufacturing defects in the worm drive circular saws which allegedly resulted in a massive number of warranty claims - something I can confirm happened to me (e.g. three cracked or broken quadrant arms on a WSC-265 saw in 4 years - Hilti refused to warranty the last breakage so I bought Festool - this wasn't the only issue, either)
Simplicity is the embodiment of purity and unity
- Shaker Maxims

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 547
Re: Jig Saw: mafell or . . .
« Reply #54 on: Yesterday at 02:29 PM »
The difference is that the Germans pretty much concentrated on supplying industrial and trade users - so the quality was always pretty high. US manufacturers appear to have gotten into a downward spiral of price and quality much earlier. Nowadays, though, standards appear to be falling with Bosch stuff

I agree with the death spiral which is the result of the Chinafication of everything sold in the US. People demand the same or lower price for a tool every year. You cannot innovate if all you can do is sell a tool at the lowest possible price point. The DeWalt tracksaw is probably an example of this. I have never seen one in the wild. At $450 or it is just not on the radar of their trade customer who laugh at the concept of paying $450 for any non-stationary tool.