Author Topic: MFT Hole Jigs  (Read 8203 times)

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Offline tallgrass

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2018, 01:27 PM »
looks good. If you want to measure holes try putting dowels in them or use pins. Makes it easier than trying to catch the edge with a ruler. Good job by the way.

Those are not the same as the adjustable cam locks that RUWI uses. They are not bad but are different. I do not think those are hardened steel and work in the same way. I have those for my 80/20 fixtures and work wonderful for that. The RUWI ones come from the world of metal working. Different beasts. They survive on my cnc milling machines. The other ones for my 80/20 would not.

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Offline tallgrass

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2018, 01:35 PM »
Nothing against the Parf idea. Looks well thought out.  I would just say nothing is faster than dropping a jig down and making holes. I have found the festool 20mm cutter to be quite good and has held up to a ton of drilling. the pics of the green tables are not the half of it.

Offline Birdhunter

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2018, 05:21 PM »
I found out routing the holes did require being careful to “round the bases” a few times to be sure the holes were perfect. I got perfect holes every time once I figured this out. The holes are a very snug fit for Parf dogs and Qwas dogs.

The jig uses pins around two sides to use to locate it for the first set of holes. I asked Woodpeckers to send me two additional pins. The additional pins gave the jig a more secure positioning.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2018, 05:56 PM by Birdhunter »
Birdhunter

Offline tallgrass

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2018, 01:30 AM »
wait are you routing the hole with a bit that is less than 20mm? I am not familiar with this. I use the dominofix, which uses a copy ring and plunge of a 20mm bit. 

Offline Cheese

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2018, 09:50 AM »
wait are you routing the hole with a bit that is less than 20mm? I am not familiar with this. I use the dominofix, which uses a copy ring and plunge of a 20mm bit.

Yes, the Woodpeckers jig uses a 1/2" diameter spiral upcut router bit to make either 20mm or 3/4" holes. After the initial plunge, you then have to move the router in a circular motion around the jig hole 3-4 times to remove the extra material.  For 20mm holes that would be 3.6mm or .143" per side.

I agree with you about the Festool 20mm hinge boring bit. I was pleasantly surprised.  [smile]  I assumed I'd get some amount of hole burning because of spinning what is essentially a modified Forstner bit at 10,000 RPM. However, there was NO burning what so ever. Who ever designed that bit got the tool geometries right.

Just a side note, for the first 30 holes I used a brand new Whiteside spiral upcut bit. For the remaining 30 holes, I used the Festool 20mm bit.  The 2nd set of holes were rounder, were more consistent in size, required 75% LESS effort on my part and took 50% LESS time to produce.

Offline TrackTubesGuy

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2018, 10:20 AM »


Just a side note, for the first 30 holes I used a brand new Whiteside spiral upcut bit. For the remaining 30 holes, I used the Festool 20mm bit.  The 2nd set of holes were rounder, were more consistent in size, required 75% LESS effort on my part and took 50% LESS time to produce.

@tallgrass .. Even though I have a couple new 20 mm bits laying around, from your comments, glad I purchased the Festool bit (491072).  Just to be safe, I also ordered the Festool 30 mm guide ring and centering mandrel.  Looking forward to receiving it and trying it out.

Online ctvader

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2018, 11:03 AM »
While I’m ‘most likely’ going with the UJK method, I thought about the woodpecker or dominofix.  My question is if either of those jigs can be used with a Bosch 1617 plunge router (can’t afford the festool right now, even with the ‘promo’)?

Offline tallgrass

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2018, 02:02 PM »
The dominofix. is independent of router. You attach a 30mm copy ring to your router. You insert a 20mm bit. I use the festool one. You can see from my pics how many holes I have cut. IT take about 10-15 mins per table. The copy ring locates the router. you then plunge cut. I have not had burn out problems. Since cutter never touches the jig it is wear resistant. 

Offline DynaGlide

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2018, 02:16 PM »
I make my tops with the LR32 jig. Saw one on Amazon Warehouse for $300 and it isn't a one trick pony.

Offline tallgrass

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2018, 06:06 PM »
I love the LR32. I made off set blocks that allow the 96mm hole spacing. I use that on things like the Paulk benches. Many ways to skin a cat.:) Getting it done to the spec you want is the goal.

Offline TrackTubesGuy

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs (Update)
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2018, 01:30 PM »
So I received the Dominofix from the Toolnut a couple days ago and finally put it to use this morning.  I was very impressed with the quality and fit of the Festool 30mm guide bushing (purchased) and template dogs that came with it .. all fit tight and lined up perfectly to my Festool Kapex top I used for reference.  Then a problem .. I had purchased the centering Mandrel to make sure the guide bushing was perfectly centered and soon realized there is no way to adjust the snap-in guide bushing on the OF1400.  My oversight, but I haven't used the router much and never had a guide bushing on it.  I checked here on the FOG and realized this has been a subject in the past.  I went ahead and punched 6 rows of holes and then turned the template to punch some holes across the top ... no bueno!  The template dogs wouldn't lock in to the existing holes so I checked alignment with my Woodpeckers MFT square and Kapex Top and realized holes were off slightly.  I'm fairly certain the guide bushing is off center ever so slightly, but "ever so slightly" is quite a bit when requiring accurately spaced holes.  I'm not ready to give up yet as I was impressed with the speed I could punch out a top and everything else about the system, but needs to be accurate.  My old Bosch plunge router is at my son's house in another State, so kind of dead in the water right now unless I want to buy another router .. one I can adjust/center the guide bushing.  Looking for suggestions if I'm missing something here?

Offline Cheese

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2018, 02:46 PM »
The Dominofix doesn't require the router to be moved because it bores a 20mm hole straight away. So just position the 1400 in the same position for every hole and don't turn the template. That way if there is a problem with the boring bit and template concentricity, the small amount of offset will always be in the same direction.

Offline Svar

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2018, 02:53 PM »
TrackTubesGuy is correct. If your bit is not perfectly centered with the bushing the setup won't work. The jig will be offset with each re-positioning.

Offline TrackTubesGuy

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2018, 03:22 PM »


The Dominofix doesn't require the router to be moved because it bores a 20mm hole straight away. So just position the 1400 in the same position for every hole and don't turn the template. That way if there is a problem with the boring bit and template concentricity, the small amount of offset will always be in the same direction.

I realize what you're saying .. I just plunged the router straight down and held it in the same orientation for every hole, however, if you want more than a 4 hole pattern across your sheet,  it is necessary to pivot the Dominofix 90 degrees and begin plunging at a right angle to the initial grid.  That's where the problem is ... the 2 Dominofix retaining dogs would not insert into the holes I just routed because they were off slightly.  Should be able to place the template in any direction on the grid pattern and have the 20 mm dog holes line up ... which it did on my Kapex MFT.   Bottom line, to use this system and get the accuracy of 96mm grid pattern, you need to be able to adjust your routers baseplate/guide bushing with a centering mandrel ... can't do it with the OF 1400.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 03:25 PM by TrackTubesGuy »

Offline Cheese

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2018, 03:36 PM »
I don't have a Dominofix so maybe there's something I'm not understanding.

If you place the entire first row of holes across the bottom of the material, always moving the jig from left to right and never rotating it, why can't you do the same with the 2nd row and the remaining rows?

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2018, 03:45 PM »
@Cheese the plan is that you rotate the jig 90* to space the next row correctly. Punch 2 holes then rotate back to continue the row.

It seems like maayybbee if the router/offset bushing is also rotated the right way to compensate it might work. But I’m sure TTG already tried that...

Offline Cheese

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2018, 03:51 PM »
@Cheese the plan is that you rotate the jig 90* to space the next row correctly. Punch 2 holes then rotate back to continue the row.

It seems like maayybbee if the router/offset bushing is also rotated the right way to compensate it might work. But I’m sure TTG already tried that...

Thanks Michael...well that's kind of goofy, that just adds tolerancing stacking issues to the equation. So rather than rotating 180º, why not try flipping the jig upside down. That way the left-to-right geometry stays the same and the only potential issue is any slight differences between the rows.

Online gnlman

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2018, 04:05 PM »
Hmm I've only taken my base plate off once to use it as a template for a circle jig...it seems to me that there are some screws under the fiber baseplate....I'll check when I get home I thought that was how you adjusted the template bushing.....

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #48 on: October 11, 2018, 04:09 PM »
@Cheese this is getting beyond my understanding of the jig (not having one) but it seems like you’d need a pair of 30x20 dogs to align a flipped over jig with...

Could be totally wrong.

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #49 on: October 11, 2018, 04:10 PM »
Hmm I've only taken my base plate off once to use it as a template for a circle jig...it seems to me that there are some screws under the fiber baseplate....I'll check when I get home I thought that was how you adjusted the template bushing.....

I hope you’re right! Offset shown in the photos is unacceptable. I don’t have a 1400 router but I can’t believe it has to be that bad.

Offline RKA

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2018, 04:32 PM »
@TrackTubesGuy I recall someone posting recently that there are two screws holding the metal piece on the base plate (that the template clips into).  This person drilled two access holes through the template to access those screws so they could be loosened and retightened while the centering mandrel is installed.  That allowed him to get the template centered properly. 
-Raj

Offline Cheese

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2018, 05:13 PM »
@Cheese this is getting beyond my understanding of the jig (not having one) but it seems like you’d need a pair of 30x20 dogs to align a flipped over jig with...

Could be totally wrong.

Hey Michael, for the “second” row of holes, the jig would be clamped to the material, the newly drilled holes would be 20 mm in diameter.

For the “first” row of holes, the jig would be flipped over and the 20 mm dogs would align with the new drilled holes and also align in the Dominofix.

I used some of the same methods on the Woodpeckers jig. Always moving the jig only left to right and always pushing the jig in the same direction before clamping it down. Once the jig was moved and the dogs installed, it was pushed up and to the left before reclamping.

This really minimized any tolerance stacking. I drilled 12 holes and the theoretical center to center distance between the first and the last was 1056 mm. When I  measured mine the distance was 1057 mm.

Offline rvieceli

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2018, 05:55 PM »
@Cheese check my logic here please. It would seem that even not centered perfectly, if you keep the router in the same orientation throughout the process the holes should be accurate.

The problem seems it might be keeping the router aligned to the jig when the jig is flipped 180. So if you were keeping the handle on the 1400 pointed right and parallel to the long edge. When you rotated the jig 180 to bore the second row, you would rotate the router handle to the left so that it would keep the orientation consistent.

Ron

Offline Cheese

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #53 on: October 11, 2018, 05:57 PM »
@TrackTubesGuy I recall someone posting recently that there are two screws holding the metal piece on the base plate (that the template clips into).  This person drilled two access holes through the template to access those screws so they could be loosened and retightened while the centering mandrel is installed.  That allowed him to get the template centered properly.

Hey Raj, along with the 2 screws under the copy ring, there are also 2 alignment dowels. Those dowel alignment holes would also have to be enlarged. Or the alignment dowels removed.

Worse yet though, because the copy ring isn’t actually fastened to anything and only snugged down by a couple of quick release clamps, the copy ring can be moved .010-.015” perpendicular to the axis created by the 2 quick release clamps.  [sad]

I learned something...use the 1010 when you need precise placement.

Offline Cheese

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #54 on: October 11, 2018, 06:09 PM »
Hey Ron, you’ve got the logic down pat.  [big grin]

Even if the concentricity was off by .030” keeping everything aligned and always keeping the tolerance difference in the same direction essentially mitigates the issue if you’re careful. That’s also where Michael was going.  [smile]

A problem though is having to turn the jig 90 or 180 degrees. If always sliding one direction, all the tolerance is in one axis. Turning the jig now now puts two axis of tolerances into play.

Offline TrackTubesGuy

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2018, 06:14 PM »
@TrackTubesGuy
Hey Raj, along with the 2 screws under the copy ring, there are also 2 alignment dowels. Those dowel alignment holes would also have to be enlarged. Or the alignment dowels removed.

Worse yet though, because the copy ring isn’t actually fastened to anything and only snugged down by a couple of quick release clamps, the copy ring can be moved .010-.015” perpendicular to the axis created by the 2 quick release clamps.  [sad]

I learned something...use the 1010 when you need precise placement.

You're absolutely right ... would need to drill out the screw holes in the removable part, drill out the alignment pin holes, and even then probably would not move much because of how tight it fits in the cast base.  Not going there .. might have to check out the 1010 ... or a Bosch.

Online gnlman

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #56 on: October 11, 2018, 08:39 PM »
Hmmmm I have this dominofix coming as well....was going to pick up the 30mm guide bushing and a mandrel...guess there is not much point getting a mandrel for my OF1400.....I took my base of when I got home...same results...no adjustment. My guide bushing that came with the router however is very snug...like many, I've only used a guide bushing in a circle jig I built, and then used a porter cable style bushing with the adapter bushing that came with the router....not a very expensive set, but circles turned out fine...I guess we'll see how accurate it is when I drill the holes...and hope....very disappointing. I'll try and pick up the 30mm guide bushing tomorrow if my local store has one and I'll give it a look and post what I find.....
I really like this router..have bought lots of accessories for it....what other router can you buy that will accept metric guide bushings, that can be centered....bosch??
Greg

Offline waho6o9

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #57 on: October 11, 2018, 09:03 PM »
Maybe this might help in centering the mandrel and router bit:


Offline TrackTubesGuy

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #58 on: October 11, 2018, 09:49 PM »
Maybe this might help in centering the mandrel and router bit:



Thanks for this ... I fiddled with the base again this evening and realized you can pull the indexing pins out with a pair of needle nose pliers ... gives the guide bushing adapter plate a little more play/adjustment, but not much.  I punched another 4 grid pattern and was better, but still off a little.  You would have to notch the plate as shown in the video to tighten the screws when centered.  At this point I'm thinking of working on a custom base for the 1400 that would accept Porter Cable style guide bushings (like the one Jasper Tools sells) ... I'm not giving up on this yet.

Offline Cheese

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #59 on: October 11, 2018, 10:07 PM »

Thanks for this ... I fiddled with the base again this evening and realized you can pull the indexing pins out with a pair of needle nose pliers ...

Truth be told...this is not a good alternative. While I have been vitriolic in some of the Festool generated solutions, this is not a good path to follow. Festool went to the extra effort to install those indexing pins at a substantial effort to index the ring correctly. It doesn’t make any sense to me but there must be some justification to their rationale. These are truly the times where Festool customer service would weigh in and right the ship. @TylerC ...any info would be good info.