Author Topic: MFT Hole Jigs  (Read 11195 times)

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Offline TrackTubesGuy

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #60 on: October 12, 2018, 09:36 AM »
I've seen this video before .. shows exactly how you have to turn the jig to expand the 4-hole pattern across your surface. This is where you'll have problems if the clip-in, non-adjustable guide bushing is not centered exactly.   He was lucky, his 1400 guide bushing is obviously centered correctly .. mine, not so much. 


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Offline Cheese

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #61 on: October 12, 2018, 09:58 AM »
At this point I'm thinking of working on a custom base for the 1400 that would accept Porter Cable style guide bushings (like the one Jasper Tools sells) ... I'm not giving up on this yet.

Festool sells a plain guide bushing plate that will accept PC style bushings, 493566. There isn't a lot of movement but it could be bored out say .030" to give you a little more wiggle room.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 10:09 AM by Cheese »

Offline TrackTubesGuy

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #62 on: October 12, 2018, 10:22 AM »
Festool sells a plain guide bushing plate that will accept PC style bushings, 493566. There isn't a lot of movement but it could be bored out say .030" to give you a little more wiggle room.

Thanks Cheese ... might be a solution worth trying before I have my machinist figure something out.  From reading other threads on the FOG, this seems like a common issue and worth getting a price on a custom insert/guide bushing that others might want also.

Offline gnlman

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #63 on: October 14, 2018, 12:51 PM »
Hi. I checked my OF1400 as well, it's off to....not by much but I can see where I will probably have the same issue when my dominofix template arrives.....

Cheese...so am I understanding this correctly..you are suggesting to enlarge the opening in the guide bushing adapter that comes with the router so there is some play to allow the use of a mandrel? If so it appears both the top and bottom of the adapter bushing would have to be enlarged...also after doing so, can you buy metric sized guide bushings in NA?
thanks...patiently waiting and hoping for a resolve from Festool.....

Offline Cheese

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #64 on: October 14, 2018, 04:03 PM »
Cheese...so am I understanding this correctly..you are suggesting to enlarge the opening in the guide bushing adapter that comes with the router so there is some play to allow the use of a mandrel? If so it appears both the top and bottom of the adapter bushing would have to be enlarged...also after doing so, can you buy metric sized guide bushings in NA?

What I'm saying is that my Festool guide bushing adapter, 493566, has an ID that measures 1.180/1.182", while the OD of my Porter Cable bushings measure 1.170-1.175" diameter. So best case using the parts I have is .005-.006" per side movement. If I needed more movement then I'd have to bore out the Festool adapter, or turn down the diameter of the Porter Cable bushings or both.

Everything is predicated on how much your 1400 is off center and the dimensional size of the parts you have. Just saying that it can be done if you have the patience & time.

As far as metric guide bushings go, the only ones I'm familiar with is UJK that Axminister sells and they do offer a 30 mm diameter brass bushing.
 

Offline gnlman

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #65 on: October 14, 2018, 04:26 PM »
thanks Cheese I thought that is what you meant...my PC (generic) guide bushings are tight on both steps of the festool guide adapter so I don't have any play....but understand what you are talking about....seems like a fairly easy work around..Also thinking ordering the 20mm base plate or making one with same idea drill it out to allow some play. Not too familiar using guide bushings, so thanks for the great ideas.
Greg

Offline TrackTubesGuy

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #66 on: October 14, 2018, 04:36 PM »
As far as metric guide bushings go, the only ones I'm familiar with is UJK that Axminister sells and they do offer a 30 mm diameter brass bushing.

I actually ordered this bushing last week .. should have it in the next couple days.  I have a couple ideas to make it work and will let you know what I come up with.
https://www.amazon.com/Trend-US-30-Screw-style/dp/B00382UOGM/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_469_img_0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=TSXZR5GS1RN9CQ22ZQK3

Offline gnlman

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #67 on: October 14, 2018, 04:42 PM »
Thanks TTG...I see they ship to canada as well...that is good...they want over 80 dollars for it in canada....3rd party pirates we have here on amazon.ca....lol
I'll keep an eye open for any help....
thanks, Greg

Offline dlu@canishe.com

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #68 on: October 16, 2018, 06:53 PM »
Thinking of purchasing one of the dog hole drilling/routing  systems to make my own MFT style tables for a project I'm working on.  Looking for feedback from anyone who's used the Woodpecker, Dominofix, or the UJK Parf system.  I've watched all the videos available online ... just looking for actual users input.  Thanks.

My take would be to avoid all of them and use a "holy rail" and the LR-32 router attachment and 20 mm bit. In my experience the results are dead on and you're using tools you already have or getting tools that have broader use than just making MFT holes. The method that I use is an adaption of Timothy Wilmot's (of MF-TC fame) method, it is easy and reliable and if you thing you'll need to do it more than once the first pass has you well on your way to making a jig.

Offline Cheese

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #69 on: October 16, 2018, 09:41 PM »
My take would be to avoid all of them and use a "holy rail" and the LR-32 router attachment and 20 mm bit. In my experience the results are dead on and you're using tools you already have or getting tools that have broader use than just making MFT holes. The method that I use is an adaption of Timothy Wilmot's (of MF-TC fame) method, it is easy and reliable and if you thing you'll need to do it more than once the first pass has you well on your way to making a jig.

I’m siding with you...the Festool bit cuts a nice hole with no burning and the holey rail makes it impossible to fail. If I were to do it all again, I’d go with the LR-32 system or hire a CNC router.

Offline gnlman

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #70 on: October 16, 2018, 10:02 PM »
Hi. Douglas could you explain how you used your lr32 system to achieve this. I've only seen one method that looks repeatable just using the system, and it was running 2 rows of holes parallel down the outside of the top and using the edge guide pins to locate and move the rail down those holes while plunging the 20 mm holes across the top. (hope that makes sense)...the edge guide pins appear to be 6mm so the standard bit that comes with system would not work...would need a 6mm router bit which is available from festool..it seems you would be limited in how long the top could be as I only have the shorter rail...unless there was a way to reset the system accurately. The jig to me seemed to be a simpler solution at the time...had I known about the router/bushing issues I think I would have tried the lr32 idea first..will need to break out the lr32 and do some more investigating...but still hoping for a fix to the jig as it seems faster and easier....that is if it can be made to work..and yes I find the 20mm festool bit makes fine holes for the qwas dogs I have as well....
Thanks, Greg

Offline DynaGlide

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #71 on: October 16, 2018, 10:28 PM »
1. Cut a sheet larger than needed for final top perfectly square.

2. Reference your lr32 off one end with the longitudinal stop, bore 20mm holes 96mm on center (every 3 on the rail).

3. Now reference off the same end with the lr32 but on the opposite side and repeat. You now have two rows of holes perfectly parallel 96mm on center. Using some rail dogs you can attach the guide rail to these parallel holes and bore 20mm holes every 3 for 96mm centers. Lift the rail and rail dogs and move down and repeat. This creates a grid of holes for your top. When you're done cut off the two rows created in steps 1 and 2.

Hope this helps. I'll look for pictures from when I did it.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 10:34 PM by DynaGlide »

Online Svar

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #72 on: October 16, 2018, 10:39 PM »
1. Cut a sheet larger than needed for final top perfectly square.
Here is your challenge #1.
BTW, this is how I did it, but without LR32. Equal spacing is easy and can be done with a simple jig. Perpendicular alignment is tricky.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 10:48 PM by Svar »

Offline Sometimewoodworker

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #73 on: October 16, 2018, 11:45 PM »
If you already have an MFT then here's another way to skin the cat
Jerome
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Online Svar

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #74 on: October 16, 2018, 11:50 PM »
If you already have an MFT then here's another way to skin the cat
If you have MFT than just copy it with a pattern bit.

Offline Sometimewoodworker

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #75 on: October 17, 2018, 01:06 AM »
If you already have an MFT then here's another way to skin the cat
If you have MFT than just copy it with a pattern bit.

I don't know of any MFT owner who has decided to do that, though it certainly could work.

You would have to drill clearance holes first so it seems that it is the slowest method and most error prone method, just look at the woodpecker jig reviews with each hole needing about 5 passes, I don't see any reason that a pattern bit would be any better or faster.
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, HL 850, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
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Offline Cheese

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #76 on: October 17, 2018, 01:53 AM »
You would have to drill clearance holes first so it seems that it is the slowest method and most error prone method, just look at the woodpecker jig reviews with each hole needing about 5 passes, I don't see any reason that a pattern bit would be any better or faster.

I’m with you on this one. Somethings work well and somethings just barely work at all. That’s where the copy bit for this application comes in. It’s a painfull experience if you’ve tried it and I’ll never go back there again.

If it’s only one or two holes, you will persevere, more than that and it’s just becomes some exercise in self flagellation. Just chuck a 20mm bit of your choice in the router and go forth.


Online Svar

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #77 on: October 17, 2018, 03:18 AM »
You would have to drill clearance holes first so it seems that it is the slowest method and most error prone method, just look at the woodpecker jig reviews with each hole needing about 5 passes, I don't see any reason that a pattern bit would be any better or faster.

I’m with you on this one. Somethings work well and somethings just barely work at all. That’s where the copy bit for this application comes in. It’s a painfull experience if you’ve tried it and I’ll never go back there again.

If it’s only one or two holes, you will persevere, more than that and it’s just becomes some exercise in self flagellation. Just chuck a 20mm bit of your choice in the router and go forth.
I disagree. I've done it both ways. I replicated existing top with pattern bit and a number of people on this forum have done the same. It is fast. Clearance holes for MFT size plate 5 min time. Yes, final routing requires steady hand. Worked perfectly for me. Advantage: 1) no error propagation due to multiple template repositioning, 2) no need to center bushing and bit (royal PITA with festool routers), 3) no blowout at the bottom.
Ideally, I would prefer phenolic template with 42 (6 x 7) 20 mm holes at 100 mm step (don't care for 96 mm).
« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 03:28 AM by Svar »

Offline Sometimewoodworker

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #78 on: October 17, 2018, 04:37 AM »
Clearly you are very much better at using a pattern bit and many times faster than I am, as this is a job I would never describe as fast or easy. As to blowout a sacrificial backing stops that.

You mentioned 5 minutes. Is that for all the holes (incredibly, unbelievably, amazingly fast under 4 seconds each) or for each hole (painfully slow at over 6 hours for the standard 77 )

Ideally, I would prefer phenolic template with 42 (6 x 7) 20 mm holes at 100 mm step (don't care for 96 mm).
So why not get one? CNC shops are very common now so it shouldn't cost more than a few hundred US$
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, HL 850, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
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Offline Cheese

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #79 on: October 17, 2018, 10:43 AM »
Well Svar you're better with that router than I am. [smile] 

I MFT'd some 18mm thick Baltic birch, maybe that makes a difference?  I've never tried any MDF so I don't know how smoothly that goes.

The Baltic birch went incredibly slow, the first 19 holes took 2.5 hours and the next 21 holes took just over 2 hours. For the final 20 holes, I swapped the 1/2" router bit for a Festool 20mm boring bit. The last 20 holes took 30 minutes.

Here's a random shot of 9 of the holes where I used a 1/2" router bit versus 9 of the holes when I switched to the Fetool boring bit.

In the first photo I can see that there are 5 or 6 holes that are wonky.
Proceeding left to right, it appears that there are issues with holes 1, 4, 5, 7, 9 and possibly hole 8. Tough to tell and I certainly can't remember as this was done 4-5 months ago.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2018, 10:15 AM by Cheese »

Offline dlu@canishe.com

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #80 on: October 17, 2018, 10:50 AM »
1. Cut a sheet larger than needed for final top perfectly square.
Here is your challenge #1.
BTW, this is how I did it, but without LR32. Equal spacing is easy and can be done with a simple jig. Perpendicular alignment is tricky.

Actually, you only need one corner to be perfect. Then you work off of the two edges with the perfect 90° angle between them.

Offline gnlman

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #81 on: October 17, 2018, 03:22 PM »
Thanks Dynaglide....funny I'd seen another video where the fellow used a wooden spacer....never thought about the rail being a spacer ..lots of good comments and ideas here on this subject, thanks everyone for chiming in.
Greg
« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 03:28 PM by gnlman »

Offline Sometimewoodworker

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #82 on: October 17, 2018, 09:02 PM »
Thanks Dynaglide....funny I'd seen another video where the fellow used a wooden spacer....never thought about the rail being a spacer ..lots of good comments and ideas here on this subject, thanks everyone for chiming in.
Greg

Given that svar's time of 5 minutes per hole is accurate, and Cheese's times of 6 to 8 minutes per hole, more represented the real time, also that you need a level of skill and dedication that is difficult to maintain or achieve for the time needed just for 1 MFT sized top. It is clear that any kind of pattern bit routing is a poor choice needing between 6 and 10 hours for 1 top.

So using a plunge 20mm bit for the holes is the only sensible option.

So having established that there are some options.
1) make your own (say) 30mm hole template full size.
2) make your own (say) 30mm hole template wide but short.
3) buy a 30mm hole template.
4) use the LR 32 directly with no template
5) use the Parf Guide 1 or the new Parf guide 2

Arguments for the above.

1) I did that so am either experienced (or biased you choose). It takes quite a long time to make and needs really close attention to detail. You don't really know if it's perfect or off by a mm or two until after it's made and used (DAMHIKT). If perfect then it is with out question the fastest way to make several (more than 3) tops even if over a long time. It is quite limiting in that smaller tops are not so easy. It avoids any miss alignment of the copy ring problems if you keep the same orientation (not difficult to do)

2) has almost all the advantages above while being more versatile, easier and faster to make, providing fewer opportunities for miss alignment in making. It takes longer than 1) to make a large top and gives its own chances of miss alignment when repositioning.

3) perfect accuracy of holes in the template, small so smaller tops are easily made, if your copy ring is correctly aligned is (without any question at all) the fastest way for larger sized tops if you make less than 4or 5. The problems of copy ring alignment are mentioned in other posts. My jig is in customs now and I have to make a 300 km trip to get it so will report later when I've got it.

4) certainly a reasonable choice if you are only making 1 and you have ( or want an excuse to get) an LR32. There is no alignment (centring of the bit) issue, you have to be really careful as a mistake will make any time saving over a template irrelevant as you will need to remake the complete top

5) (versions 1 & 2 are functionally the same.) Advantages: for any size of top you can decide at any time that you need 20mm holes in any of the grid positions, your only requirement is that you drill the 3mm holes for the complete grid first if you want to position 20mm holes perfectly anywhere anytime. (For example You could make a cutting station for the 5 meter rail in less than 20 minutes. No other system comes close to doing that, if they can do it at all.) The option to just drill the 3mm grid and add 20mm holes later is amazingly versatile and makes using surfaces never designed for the 20mm grid an option you can use after designs and made. You can make 20mm x 96mm grids on different patterns permitting some unusual clamping and cutting options.

Disadvantages: if you need a large size complete grid it is slow, much faster than a pattern bit, much slower than a template. The repositioning of the guide takes more time than you think it will.

The Parf guide IMNSHO shines in making a smaller number of (perfectly aligned to the grid) holes that can be widely separated, adding holes to surfaces you didn't think of originally, making a single row in a narrow board.

My opinion:
I made the big jig and would not have done so if I knew then what I know now, it was good practice and education.

I have the Parf Guide 1 and am finding new uses for it, it is as accurate as suggested, not much skill needed (but certainly imagination). An incidental benefit is 2x1 meter straight edges

I need some complete grid surfaces so have The Dominofix MFT jig on the way in customs now so will update later
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, HL 850, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
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Online Svar

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #83 on: October 17, 2018, 09:59 PM »
Given that svar's time of 5 minutes per hole is accurate
No, it's grossly inaccurate. It is not at all what I wrote.  [big grin]
« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 10:06 PM by Svar »

Offline JD2720

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #84 on: October 17, 2018, 10:25 PM »
What am I missing? I have watched the videos of the different jigs to drill the 20mm grid of holes.
The jig are expensive & it takes a lot of time to drill a large grid of 20mm holes.

Why not buy a replacement MFT top & a 20mm bit. Clamp the top to the the surface that the 20mm hole grid will be drilled in.
Then use the holes in the replacement top as a guide for the new grid. By doing this, a lot of 20mm holes can be drilled without moving the replacement top template.
Or better yet if someone already has a MFT, remove the top & use it as the template. 

Offline Sometimewoodworker

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #85 on: October 17, 2018, 10:29 PM »
Given that svar's time of 5 minutes per hole is accurate
No, it's grossly inaccurate. It is not at all what I wrote.  [big grin]

You said "Clearance holes for MFT size plate 5 min time."

You haven't made clear what that relates to, as total time is impossible and given that Cheese reported 7.14 minutes per hole for his first set and 5.7 for the second set my assumption of your meaning of 5 minutes per hole for you is reasonable.

But please make clear how long it did really take
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, HL 850, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
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Offline Cheese

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #86 on: October 17, 2018, 10:46 PM »
Well just wanting to throw more gas on this fire because that’s the pyro that I am, when it comes to me stating the hole boring machining times, that included unclamping the jig, repositioning the jig, indexing the jig and then reclamping the jig before I moved on to the next hole. So if that averages out to 6 minutes per hole, actual router time was probably 3-4 minutes per hole.

This is the method I used.
Align the jig.
Bias the jig.
Clamp the jig.
Plunge the 1/2" diameter router bit.
Clean up the hole diameter.
Remove the router and inspect the hole for out of roundness conditions. See previous photos.
Reinsert the router and clean up the anomalies.
Remove the router and inspect the hole for out of roundness conditions once again.
Move onto the next hole.

That’s a tedious process...as they say in the hotel business, “bada book, bada boom”.

Translated into woodworker language that would be, chuck up a Festool 20mm boring bit and be done with it. We all have bigger fish to fry.  [big grin]



« Last Edit: October 18, 2018, 09:57 AM by Cheese »

Online Svar

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #87 on: October 17, 2018, 10:49 PM »
Given that svar's time of 5 minutes per hole is accurate
No, it's grossly inaccurate. It is not at all what I wrote.  [big grin]

You said "Clearance holes for MFT size plate 5 min time."

You haven't made clear what that relates to, as total time is impossible and given that Cheese reported 7.14 minutes per hole for his first set and 5.7 for the second set my assumption of your meaning of 5 minutes per hole for you is reasonable.

But please make clear how long it did really take
I was talking about 13 mm pilot holes only (for the pattern bit to go through). I clamp existing mft plate over a piece of mdf and just punch holes using a drill. It is fast, perhaps not 5 but 10 min per plate, but fast. I use a short piece of plastic pipe as a bushing to roughly center the 13 mm drill bit inside MFT's 20 mm hole. Drop the bushing, drill, repeat. No need for accuracy or any layout at this stage.
Then flip the entire thing and widen the holes from 13 mm to 20 mm with a top (end) bearing pattern bit. How long could it take to plunge and do couple circles with router to shave 3 mm of mdf?
The entire fabrication of a new MFT size top takes an hour conservatively. (Just holes, no trimming to size etc.)

Sorry for the confusion.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 11:07 PM by Svar »

Offline Sometimewoodworker

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #88 on: October 17, 2018, 10:52 PM »
What am I missing? I have watched the videos of the different jigs to drill the 20mm grid of holes.

That there are many more used for the 20mm x 96mm pattern of holes than an MFT top, that using an MFT top doesn't work for many patterns of holes, that the MFT top template doesn't work for an offset grid, that an MFT top is not significantly less expensive than any other jig and is only possibly better value if you have or want an MFT though using the top that you will use as a jig (for anything other than pattern routing) is quite likely to enlarge its holes so not being a good option.

There are probably more but that's a quick selection
« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 11:06 PM by Sometimewoodworker »
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, HL 850, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
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Offline Sometimewoodworker

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Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #89 on: October 17, 2018, 11:05 PM »
Well just wanting to throw more gas on this fire because that’s the pyro that I am, when it comes to me stating the hole boring machining times, that included unclamping the jig, repositioning the jig, indexing the jig and then reclamping the jig before I moved on to the next hole. So if that averages out to 6 minutes per hole, actual router time was probably 3-4 minutes per hole.
 [big grin]

Well a nicely fire is useful to dispose of badly made tops [eek]

All of that is essential to making the holes so the 3-4 minutes would not be a real time quote & even if it's a gross overstatement you would still be looking at a long time
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, HL 850, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/