Author Topic: MFT Hole Jigs  (Read 11694 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TrackTubesGuy

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 89
    • TrackTubes.com
MFT Hole Jigs
« on: September 27, 2018, 08:44 AM »
Thinking of purchasing one of the dog hole drilling/routing  systems to make my own MFT style tables for a project I'm working on.  Looking for feedback from anyone who's used the Woodpecker, Dominofix, or the UJK Parf system.  I've watched all the videos available online ... just looking for actual users input.  Thanks.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline HarveyWildes

  • Posts: 806
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2018, 09:54 AM »
Thinking of purchasing one of the dog hole drilling/routing  systems to make my own MFT style tables for a project I'm working on.  Looking for feedback from anyone who's used the Woodpecker, Dominofix, or the UJK Parf system.  I've watched all the videos available online ... just looking for actual users input.  Thanks.

I've used the Parf guide system to drill MFT holes in a 1.5" thick bench top.  The hole pattern is very accurate, the system was easy to use.  I did get more blowout drilling through wood than I would have liked, so I started backing up the wood when drilling, but that would have been an issue with any jig that I used.  In addition to the hole pattern on the top, I also drilled a set of holes along the front that have been quite useful.


Offline neilc

  • Posts: 2524
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2018, 10:26 AM »
I have used the Parf guide on several tops.  It's very accurate and works well.  Agree with Harvey on using a backer board on any drilling for cleaner holes.

I've drilled in baltic birch and lightweight MDF and both have worked very well with the Parf guide.

One thing I liked about the Parf guide is the rulers allowing for large layout with a highly accurate and consistent hole grid across a longer distance than I felt I could get from a smaller guide like the Woodpecker or DominoFix guide.

Offline clark_fork

  • Posts: 272
Clark Fork

"A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths."  Stephen Wright

"straight, smooth and square" Mr. Russell, first day high school shop class-1954

" What's the good of it?" My Sainted Grandmother

"You can't be too rich, too thin or have too many clamps." After my introduction to pocket joinery and now the MFT work process

"Don't make something unless it is both made necessary and useful; but if it is both necessary and useful,
don't hesitate to make it beautiful." -- Shaker dictum

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1554
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2018, 11:58 AM »
I did get more blowout drilling through wood than I would have liked, so I started backing up the wood when drilling, but that would have been an issue with any jig that I used. 
That (blowout) does not happen if you use a template (such as actual MFT top) and a router with pattern bit.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5155
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2018, 01:04 PM »
I purchased and have used the Woodpeckers item. Here's a previous thread.

http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-sales-dealer-area/last-day-to-order-woodpeckers-onetime-diy-mft-jig-(us)/msg549308/#msg549308

Long story short, hole-to-hole spacing with the Woodpeckers fixture is very, very accurate and repeatable. The real issue is the lack of a consistent hole diameter. That's because of the need to plunge an undersized router bit through the material and then try to clean up the hole. If my arms had the strength and worked in a similar fashion as a CNC tool, the clean up would not be an issue.

So my solution was to machine an aluminum adapter ring, fit it to the Woodpeckers jig and then use a Festool 20mm bit to directly route each hole to size. That worked well.

Offline TrackTubesGuy

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 89
    • TrackTubes.com
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2018, 05:23 PM »

So my solution was to machine an aluminum adapter ring, fit it to the Woodpeckers jig and then use a Festool 20mm bit to directly route each hole to size. That worked well.

So essentially you're using the same method as the Dominofix MFT jig?  Thanks for the replies .. I do appreciate it.

Offline TealaG

  • Posts: 97
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2018, 10:00 PM »
Did you consider the Woodrave jig?  It's probably not as dead accurate as some of the more sophisticated options, but it's simple and more affordable for "the rest of us".  :)

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 744
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2018, 01:44 PM »
I use the Dominofix. I have used it to cut tons of tops and it is perfect. Fast and accurate.

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 744
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2018, 01:49 PM »
here are pics of the last set of tables i did. That is green phenolic, 3/4 inch

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5155
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2018, 02:30 PM »
So essentially you're using the same method as the Dominofix MFT jig?  Thanks for the replies .. I do appreciate it.

Correct.  If l had known about the hole size issues with the Woodpecker setup, I’d have purchased a different jig system.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5155
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2018, 02:36 PM »
here are pics of the last set of tables i did. That is green phenolic, 3/4 inch

I like the phenolic, is it slippery when you place items on it?

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 2382
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2018, 06:06 PM »
I’ve used the Woodpecker guide for a small MFT surface. It works as advertised. Holes are good tight fit for my bench dogs. Holes are accurate.

I would not try it for a large surface. It would be a tiresome piece of work.

Birdhunter

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1554
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2018, 06:19 PM »
I would not try it for a large surface. It would be a tiresome piece of work.
Why? Template is the fastest way of all, other than CNC.

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 2382
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2018, 07:25 PM »
I’d buy a top from Festool rather than spent the time drilling out all those holes. The alternative would be to hire a CNC shop to make a top.
Birdhunter

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5155
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2018, 07:36 PM »
Why? Template is the fastest way of all, other than CNC.

The issue with the Woodpeckers setup is clearing the last bit of material from the hole. The initial plunge is simple but after the plunge you need to move the router around the hole at least 3-4 times. If you aren’t extremely careful you can get some odd shaped holes that then need more attention. I was working with 18mm Baltic birch. It may have been an easier if I was using MDF.

I’d never attempt a 1 1/2” -2” maple top with the Woodpeckers setup.


Offline TrackTubesGuy

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 89
    • TrackTubes.com
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2018, 07:50 PM »
Thanks for the input .. I ended up buying the Dominofix template from The Tool Nut today.  It just seemed like the quickest method ... I'll let you know how it works out.

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 744
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2018, 07:51 PM »
I have CNC. It is not always the fasted way. Dropping the Dominofix where I want it and running the patter is as fast as it gets. I love my CNC machines, however there is a reason I still have "manual machines" In my shop. One of the nice parts of the Dominofix is that it is self validating by by rotating it 90 and seeing if everything lines up. Like anything one tool is not perfect for everything.

As far as slippery, I clamp to the table. I also use RUWI components for cutting and their stand offs are non slip and sacrificial. You should look into them. There is great synergy between RUWI and the MFT..  If you look at the pics I think you can see saw lines . This allows me to lift out sections as I see fit. Also when moving them I just lift out the panels. Making moving the MFTs much easier. Because the tops are in 3 pieces I also have drop in panels for routers, jig saw...ect. Living in the USA NAINA is a pain and this is my work around. Which I love by the way.

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 744
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2018, 07:54 PM »
you will like it. I use the 1400 with the festool copy ring. fit the ring to the jig not the other way around. it should be a slip fit.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1554
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2018, 08:07 PM »
If you look at the pics I think you can see saw lines . This allows me to lift out sections as I see fit.
I assume the sections would be hard to precisely aligned with each other (within fraction of mm) and hence can not be used for accurate positioning of material using dogs. Unless you place all your dogs into one section.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3603
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2018, 08:36 PM »
@tallgrass   “RUWI components”. Which ones and where do you get them?

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 744
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2018, 09:22 PM »
They maintain their accuracy. I cut the entire sheet indexed to the lower right. You could choose differently.As long as you choose. I then cut the panels. If I need to verify I use the jig to lock it down. That is the benefit of this jig.

These are a sample of the RUWI things I use.The rail has a sacrificial friction surface. So you use them to cut on saving the table top. I use four of them and place my cut so that both sides of the cut are supported. These also provide friction for things like sanding. They work beautifully.

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 744
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2018, 09:25 PM »
I import them from Germany. They deduct the VAT and the shipping is extremely reasonable. I love these components. I also use their products on the metal side of my shop.

Offline TrackTubesGuy

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 89
    • TrackTubes.com
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2018, 09:53 PM »
I import them from Germany. They deduct the VAT and the shipping is extremely reasonable. I love these components. I also use their products on the metal side of my shop.

I'm familiar with the RUWI products and actually emailed them several months ago, trying to find a source for the rail connectors.  I was informed to contact a Felder Rep.  I actually was about to purchase a FAT300, so asked my Rep. about them and never did get an answer.  If you (@tallgrass) have a source for them and don't mind sharing it .. I would appreciate it.  Can PM if you want. Thanks.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1554
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2018, 10:48 PM »
Those RUWI parts are not proprietary.
Brackets are 80/20
https://www.ebay.com/itm/80-20-Inc-T-Slot-Zinc-Economy-Angle-Clamp-Block-40-Series-14117-N/371952381973
Veriatas bench anchors:
http://www.leevalley.com/us/Wood/page.aspx?p=59754&cat=1,41637
Then standard extrusions and bike cam locks.
I like o-rings on Veritas anchors.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 11:03 PM by Svar »

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 744
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2018, 01:07 AM »
not sure they have the adjustable cam locks. The split dog is a regular solution. It is the adjustable cam lock and slat table that I believe is proprietary. I will check the 80/20 catalog to see if they are lurking in there.

I can give you my contact. He and his company are top drawer and were very helpful.

Tobias Bort
shop@bort-herkert.de

Tell him Todd Cumberland from S. California sent you. He was fantastic. Shop their web page at your wallets own risk.




Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 744
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2018, 01:28 AM »
https://ruwi.de/products/      [big grin] just if you want to peruse. :)

Offline rvieceli

  • Posts: 864
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2018, 08:23 AM »

Offline gunnyr

  • Posts: 152
    • https://www.instagram.com/compassfinecarpentry/
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2018, 09:07 AM »
I'm a little late to this thread.  I also have the UJK Parf Guide.  Very simple to use and VERY accurate.  IMHO is a much more trustworthy method than others as it relies on simple, basic geometry to achieve its accuracy.  It is also very flexible. 

I missed @clark_fork comments earlier but urge you to read his review.  Very well done!  If his thoughts and experience aren't sufficiently convincing of the merits of the UJK Parf Guide I can only urge you watch Peter's excellent YouTube videos again.  I have a Paulk Compact Bench and @Timtool MFTC both made with the UJK Parf Guide.  I have produce excellent trim and furniture projects using both of them as cut stations.  I also have 2 MFT's.  After reading Clark's comments I will soon be making a simple cut top to use when I don't want/need to set up my any of the other tables.


My take:

http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/mft3-mdf-dimensions/msg548309/#msg548309
Semper Fi,
Jeff

TS 55 REQ|HKC 55|PSB 420|DF 500|PRO 5 LTD|ETS 150/3|RO 90|RO 150|OF 1400|MFK 700|LR 32|MFS 400/700|CXS (2)|PDC 18|DWC 18-4500|CT MIDI|CT 26|CT 48|MFT/3 (2)|VAC SYS-SET|DUO-SET|SYSLITE KAL II
US Marines - UK Wildcats - Cincinnati Reds

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5155
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2018, 09:59 AM »
FWIW...here are a couple shots of the results of the Woodpeckers jig.

Here's what a hole can look like if you don't carefully evaluate every hole before you move the jig to move on. There's a small blip at 9:00 and also at 1:00. That tells me that there's still extra material within that area. Maybe only .005"-.007" but that's enough to prevent a dog from entering the hole. This hole has already been "cleaned up" by me running the router around the jig/guide 3-4 times.



These photos are indicators of how accurately the Woodpeckers jig can place the holes:
The first photo is the center of the furthest LH hole. The center is 110mm.
The second photo is the furthest RH hole.  The center is 1167mm, although that may be tough to see.
That means the center to center distance is only off by 1mm over that distance. For imperial users, the hole to hole distance was off  by .039" over a distance of 41.5".  That's pretty impressive.  [big grin]



« Last Edit: September 29, 2018, 10:12 AM by Cheese »

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 744
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2018, 01:27 PM »
looks good. If you want to measure holes try putting dowels in them or use pins. Makes it easier than trying to catch the edge with a ruler. Good job by the way.

Those are not the same as the adjustable cam locks that RUWI uses. They are not bad but are different. I do not think those are hardened steel and work in the same way. I have those for my 80/20 fixtures and work wonderful for that. The RUWI ones come from the world of metal working. Different beasts. They survive on my cnc milling machines. The other ones for my 80/20 would not.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 744
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2018, 01:35 PM »
Nothing against the Parf idea. Looks well thought out.  I would just say nothing is faster than dropping a jig down and making holes. I have found the festool 20mm cutter to be quite good and has held up to a ton of drilling. the pics of the green tables are not the half of it.

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 2382
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2018, 05:21 PM »
I found out routing the holes did require being careful to “round the bases” a few times to be sure the holes were perfect. I got perfect holes every time once I figured this out. The holes are a very snug fit for Parf dogs and Qwas dogs.

The jig uses pins around two sides to use to locate it for the first set of holes. I asked Woodpeckers to send me two additional pins. The additional pins gave the jig a more secure positioning.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2018, 05:56 PM by Birdhunter »
Birdhunter

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 744
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2018, 01:30 AM »
wait are you routing the hole with a bit that is less than 20mm? I am not familiar with this. I use the dominofix, which uses a copy ring and plunge of a 20mm bit. 

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5155
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2018, 09:50 AM »
wait are you routing the hole with a bit that is less than 20mm? I am not familiar with this. I use the dominofix, which uses a copy ring and plunge of a 20mm bit.

Yes, the Woodpeckers jig uses a 1/2" diameter spiral upcut router bit to make either 20mm or 3/4" holes. After the initial plunge, you then have to move the router in a circular motion around the jig hole 3-4 times to remove the extra material.  For 20mm holes that would be 3.6mm or .143" per side.

I agree with you about the Festool 20mm hinge boring bit. I was pleasantly surprised.  [smile]  I assumed I'd get some amount of hole burning because of spinning what is essentially a modified Forstner bit at 10,000 RPM. However, there was NO burning what so ever. Who ever designed that bit got the tool geometries right.

Just a side note, for the first 30 holes I used a brand new Whiteside spiral upcut bit. For the remaining 30 holes, I used the Festool 20mm bit.  The 2nd set of holes were rounder, were more consistent in size, required 75% LESS effort on my part and took 50% LESS time to produce.

Offline TrackTubesGuy

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 89
    • TrackTubes.com
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2018, 10:20 AM »


Just a side note, for the first 30 holes I used a brand new Whiteside spiral upcut bit. For the remaining 30 holes, I used the Festool 20mm bit.  The 2nd set of holes were rounder, were more consistent in size, required 75% LESS effort on my part and took 50% LESS time to produce.

@tallgrass .. Even though I have a couple new 20 mm bits laying around, from your comments, glad I purchased the Festool bit (491072).  Just to be safe, I also ordered the Festool 30 mm guide ring and centering mandrel.  Looking forward to receiving it and trying it out.

Offline ctvader

  • Posts: 29
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2018, 11:03 AM »
While I’m ‘most likely’ going with the UJK method, I thought about the woodpecker or dominofix.  My question is if either of those jigs can be used with a Bosch 1617 plunge router (can’t afford the festool right now, even with the ‘promo’)?

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 744
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2018, 02:02 PM »
The dominofix. is independent of router. You attach a 30mm copy ring to your router. You insert a 20mm bit. I use the festool one. You can see from my pics how many holes I have cut. IT take about 10-15 mins per table. The copy ring locates the router. you then plunge cut. I have not had burn out problems. Since cutter never touches the jig it is wear resistant. 

Offline DynaGlide

  • Posts: 248
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2018, 02:16 PM »
I make my tops with the LR32 jig. Saw one on Amazon Warehouse for $300 and it isn't a one trick pony.

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 744
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2018, 06:06 PM »
I love the LR32. I made off set blocks that allow the 96mm hole spacing. I use that on things like the Paulk benches. Many ways to skin a cat.:) Getting it done to the spec you want is the goal.

Offline TrackTubesGuy

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 89
    • TrackTubes.com
Re: MFT Hole Jigs (Update)
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2018, 01:30 PM »
So I received the Dominofix from the Toolnut a couple days ago and finally put it to use this morning.  I was very impressed with the quality and fit of the Festool 30mm guide bushing (purchased) and template dogs that came with it .. all fit tight and lined up perfectly to my Festool Kapex top I used for reference.  Then a problem .. I had purchased the centering Mandrel to make sure the guide bushing was perfectly centered and soon realized there is no way to adjust the snap-in guide bushing on the OF1400.  My oversight, but I haven't used the router much and never had a guide bushing on it.  I checked here on the FOG and realized this has been a subject in the past.  I went ahead and punched 6 rows of holes and then turned the template to punch some holes across the top ... no bueno!  The template dogs wouldn't lock in to the existing holes so I checked alignment with my Woodpeckers MFT square and Kapex Top and realized holes were off slightly.  I'm fairly certain the guide bushing is off center ever so slightly, but "ever so slightly" is quite a bit when requiring accurately spaced holes.  I'm not ready to give up yet as I was impressed with the speed I could punch out a top and everything else about the system, but needs to be accurate.  My old Bosch plunge router is at my son's house in another State, so kind of dead in the water right now unless I want to buy another router .. one I can adjust/center the guide bushing.  Looking for suggestions if I'm missing something here?

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5155
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2018, 02:46 PM »
The Dominofix doesn't require the router to be moved because it bores a 20mm hole straight away. So just position the 1400 in the same position for every hole and don't turn the template. That way if there is a problem with the boring bit and template concentricity, the small amount of offset will always be in the same direction.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1554
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2018, 02:53 PM »
TrackTubesGuy is correct. If your bit is not perfectly centered with the bushing the setup won't work. The jig will be offset with each re-positioning.

Offline TrackTubesGuy

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 89
    • TrackTubes.com
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2018, 03:22 PM »


The Dominofix doesn't require the router to be moved because it bores a 20mm hole straight away. So just position the 1400 in the same position for every hole and don't turn the template. That way if there is a problem with the boring bit and template concentricity, the small amount of offset will always be in the same direction.

I realize what you're saying .. I just plunged the router straight down and held it in the same orientation for every hole, however, if you want more than a 4 hole pattern across your sheet,  it is necessary to pivot the Dominofix 90 degrees and begin plunging at a right angle to the initial grid.  That's where the problem is ... the 2 Dominofix retaining dogs would not insert into the holes I just routed because they were off slightly.  Should be able to place the template in any direction on the grid pattern and have the 20 mm dog holes line up ... which it did on my Kapex MFT.   Bottom line, to use this system and get the accuracy of 96mm grid pattern, you need to be able to adjust your routers baseplate/guide bushing with a centering mandrel ... can't do it with the OF 1400.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 03:25 PM by TrackTubesGuy »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5155
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2018, 03:36 PM »
I don't have a Dominofix so maybe there's something I'm not understanding.

If you place the entire first row of holes across the bottom of the material, always moving the jig from left to right and never rotating it, why can't you do the same with the 2nd row and the remaining rows?

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3603
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2018, 03:45 PM »
@Cheese the plan is that you rotate the jig 90* to space the next row correctly. Punch 2 holes then rotate back to continue the row.

It seems like maayybbee if the router/offset bushing is also rotated the right way to compensate it might work. But I’m sure TTG already tried that...

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5155
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2018, 03:51 PM »
@Cheese the plan is that you rotate the jig 90* to space the next row correctly. Punch 2 holes then rotate back to continue the row.

It seems like maayybbee if the router/offset bushing is also rotated the right way to compensate it might work. But I’m sure TTG already tried that...

Thanks Michael...well that's kind of goofy, that just adds tolerancing stacking issues to the equation. So rather than rotating 180º, why not try flipping the jig upside down. That way the left-to-right geometry stays the same and the only potential issue is any slight differences between the rows.

Offline gnlman

  • Posts: 163
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2018, 04:05 PM »
Hmm I've only taken my base plate off once to use it as a template for a circle jig...it seems to me that there are some screws under the fiber baseplate....I'll check when I get home I thought that was how you adjusted the template bushing.....

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3603
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #48 on: October 11, 2018, 04:09 PM »
@Cheese this is getting beyond my understanding of the jig (not having one) but it seems like you’d need a pair of 30x20 dogs to align a flipped over jig with...

Could be totally wrong.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3603
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #49 on: October 11, 2018, 04:10 PM »
Hmm I've only taken my base plate off once to use it as a template for a circle jig...it seems to me that there are some screws under the fiber baseplate....I'll check when I get home I thought that was how you adjusted the template bushing.....

I hope you’re right! Offset shown in the photos is unacceptable. I don’t have a 1400 router but I can’t believe it has to be that bad.

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1288
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2018, 04:32 PM »
@TrackTubesGuy I recall someone posting recently that there are two screws holding the metal piece on the base plate (that the template clips into).  This person drilled two access holes through the template to access those screws so they could be loosened and retightened while the centering mandrel is installed.  That allowed him to get the template centered properly. 
-Raj

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5155
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2018, 05:13 PM »
@Cheese this is getting beyond my understanding of the jig (not having one) but it seems like you’d need a pair of 30x20 dogs to align a flipped over jig with...

Could be totally wrong.

Hey Michael, for the “second” row of holes, the jig would be clamped to the material, the newly drilled holes would be 20 mm in diameter.

For the “first” row of holes, the jig would be flipped over and the 20 mm dogs would align with the new drilled holes and also align in the Dominofix.

I used some of the same methods on the Woodpeckers jig. Always moving the jig only left to right and always pushing the jig in the same direction before clamping it down. Once the jig was moved and the dogs installed, it was pushed up and to the left before reclamping.

This really minimized any tolerance stacking. I drilled 12 holes and the theoretical center to center distance between the first and the last was 1056 mm. When I  measured mine the distance was 1057 mm.

Offline rvieceli

  • Posts: 864
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2018, 05:55 PM »
@Cheese check my logic here please. It would seem that even not centered perfectly, if you keep the router in the same orientation throughout the process the holes should be accurate.

The problem seems it might be keeping the router aligned to the jig when the jig is flipped 180. So if you were keeping the handle on the 1400 pointed right and parallel to the long edge. When you rotated the jig 180 to bore the second row, you would rotate the router handle to the left so that it would keep the orientation consistent.

Ron

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5155
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #53 on: October 11, 2018, 05:57 PM »
@TrackTubesGuy I recall someone posting recently that there are two screws holding the metal piece on the base plate (that the template clips into).  This person drilled two access holes through the template to access those screws so they could be loosened and retightened while the centering mandrel is installed.  That allowed him to get the template centered properly.

Hey Raj, along with the 2 screws under the copy ring, there are also 2 alignment dowels. Those dowel alignment holes would also have to be enlarged. Or the alignment dowels removed.

Worse yet though, because the copy ring isn’t actually fastened to anything and only snugged down by a couple of quick release clamps, the copy ring can be moved .010-.015” perpendicular to the axis created by the 2 quick release clamps.  [sad]

I learned something...use the 1010 when you need precise placement.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5155
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #54 on: October 11, 2018, 06:09 PM »
Hey Ron, you’ve got the logic down pat.  [big grin]

Even if the concentricity was off by .030” keeping everything aligned and always keeping the tolerance difference in the same direction essentially mitigates the issue if you’re careful. That’s also where Michael was going.  [smile]

A problem though is having to turn the jig 90 or 180 degrees. If always sliding one direction, all the tolerance is in one axis. Turning the jig now now puts two axis of tolerances into play.

Offline TrackTubesGuy

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 89
    • TrackTubes.com
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2018, 06:14 PM »
@TrackTubesGuy
Hey Raj, along with the 2 screws under the copy ring, there are also 2 alignment dowels. Those dowel alignment holes would also have to be enlarged. Or the alignment dowels removed.

Worse yet though, because the copy ring isn’t actually fastened to anything and only snugged down by a couple of quick release clamps, the copy ring can be moved .010-.015” perpendicular to the axis created by the 2 quick release clamps.  [sad]

I learned something...use the 1010 when you need precise placement.

You're absolutely right ... would need to drill out the screw holes in the removable part, drill out the alignment pin holes, and even then probably would not move much because of how tight it fits in the cast base.  Not going there .. might have to check out the 1010 ... or a Bosch.

Offline gnlman

  • Posts: 163
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #56 on: October 11, 2018, 08:39 PM »
Hmmmm I have this dominofix coming as well....was going to pick up the 30mm guide bushing and a mandrel...guess there is not much point getting a mandrel for my OF1400.....I took my base of when I got home...same results...no adjustment. My guide bushing that came with the router however is very snug...like many, I've only used a guide bushing in a circle jig I built, and then used a porter cable style bushing with the adapter bushing that came with the router....not a very expensive set, but circles turned out fine...I guess we'll see how accurate it is when I drill the holes...and hope....very disappointing. I'll try and pick up the 30mm guide bushing tomorrow if my local store has one and I'll give it a look and post what I find.....
I really like this router..have bought lots of accessories for it....what other router can you buy that will accept metric guide bushings, that can be centered....bosch??
Greg

Offline waho6o9

  • Posts: 1404
    • Garage Door Handyman.com
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #57 on: October 11, 2018, 09:03 PM »
Maybe this might help in centering the mandrel and router bit:


Offline TrackTubesGuy

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 89
    • TrackTubes.com
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #58 on: October 11, 2018, 09:49 PM »
Maybe this might help in centering the mandrel and router bit:



Thanks for this ... I fiddled with the base again this evening and realized you can pull the indexing pins out with a pair of needle nose pliers ... gives the guide bushing adapter plate a little more play/adjustment, but not much.  I punched another 4 grid pattern and was better, but still off a little.  You would have to notch the plate as shown in the video to tighten the screws when centered.  At this point I'm thinking of working on a custom base for the 1400 that would accept Porter Cable style guide bushings (like the one Jasper Tools sells) ... I'm not giving up on this yet.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5155
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #59 on: October 11, 2018, 10:07 PM »

Thanks for this ... I fiddled with the base again this evening and realized you can pull the indexing pins out with a pair of needle nose pliers ...

Truth be told...this is not a good alternative. While I have been vitriolic in some of the Festool generated solutions, this is not a good path to follow. Festool went to the extra effort to install those indexing pins at a substantial effort to index the ring correctly. It doesn’t make any sense to me but there must be some justification to their rationale. These are truly the times where Festool customer service would weigh in and right the ship. @TylerC ...any info would be good info.

Offline TrackTubesGuy

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 89
    • TrackTubes.com
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #60 on: October 12, 2018, 09:36 AM »
I've seen this video before .. shows exactly how you have to turn the jig to expand the 4-hole pattern across your surface. This is where you'll have problems if the clip-in, non-adjustable guide bushing is not centered exactly.   He was lucky, his 1400 guide bushing is obviously centered correctly .. mine, not so much. 


Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5155
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #61 on: October 12, 2018, 09:58 AM »
At this point I'm thinking of working on a custom base for the 1400 that would accept Porter Cable style guide bushings (like the one Jasper Tools sells) ... I'm not giving up on this yet.

Festool sells a plain guide bushing plate that will accept PC style bushings, 493566. There isn't a lot of movement but it could be bored out say .030" to give you a little more wiggle room.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2018, 10:09 AM by Cheese »

Offline TrackTubesGuy

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 89
    • TrackTubes.com
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #62 on: October 12, 2018, 10:22 AM »
Festool sells a plain guide bushing plate that will accept PC style bushings, 493566. There isn't a lot of movement but it could be bored out say .030" to give you a little more wiggle room.

Thanks Cheese ... might be a solution worth trying before I have my machinist figure something out.  From reading other threads on the FOG, this seems like a common issue and worth getting a price on a custom insert/guide bushing that others might want also.

Offline gnlman

  • Posts: 163
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #63 on: October 14, 2018, 12:51 PM »
Hi. I checked my OF1400 as well, it's off to....not by much but I can see where I will probably have the same issue when my dominofix template arrives.....

Cheese...so am I understanding this correctly..you are suggesting to enlarge the opening in the guide bushing adapter that comes with the router so there is some play to allow the use of a mandrel? If so it appears both the top and bottom of the adapter bushing would have to be enlarged...also after doing so, can you buy metric sized guide bushings in NA?
thanks...patiently waiting and hoping for a resolve from Festool.....

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5155
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #64 on: October 14, 2018, 04:03 PM »
Cheese...so am I understanding this correctly..you are suggesting to enlarge the opening in the guide bushing adapter that comes with the router so there is some play to allow the use of a mandrel? If so it appears both the top and bottom of the adapter bushing would have to be enlarged...also after doing so, can you buy metric sized guide bushings in NA?

What I'm saying is that my Festool guide bushing adapter, 493566, has an ID that measures 1.180/1.182", while the OD of my Porter Cable bushings measure 1.170-1.175" diameter. So best case using the parts I have is .005-.006" per side movement. If I needed more movement then I'd have to bore out the Festool adapter, or turn down the diameter of the Porter Cable bushings or both.

Everything is predicated on how much your 1400 is off center and the dimensional size of the parts you have. Just saying that it can be done if you have the patience & time.

As far as metric guide bushings go, the only ones I'm familiar with is UJK that Axminister sells and they do offer a 30 mm diameter brass bushing.
 

Offline gnlman

  • Posts: 163
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #65 on: October 14, 2018, 04:26 PM »
thanks Cheese I thought that is what you meant...my PC (generic) guide bushings are tight on both steps of the festool guide adapter so I don't have any play....but understand what you are talking about....seems like a fairly easy work around..Also thinking ordering the 20mm base plate or making one with same idea drill it out to allow some play. Not too familiar using guide bushings, so thanks for the great ideas.
Greg

Offline TrackTubesGuy

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 89
    • TrackTubes.com
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #66 on: October 14, 2018, 04:36 PM »
As far as metric guide bushings go, the only ones I'm familiar with is UJK that Axminister sells and they do offer a 30 mm diameter brass bushing.

I actually ordered this bushing last week .. should have it in the next couple days.  I have a couple ideas to make it work and will let you know what I come up with.
https://www.amazon.com/Trend-US-30-Screw-style/dp/B00382UOGM/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_469_img_0?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=TSXZR5GS1RN9CQ22ZQK3

Offline gnlman

  • Posts: 163
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #67 on: October 14, 2018, 04:42 PM »
Thanks TTG...I see they ship to canada as well...that is good...they want over 80 dollars for it in canada....3rd party pirates we have here on amazon.ca....lol
I'll keep an eye open for any help....
thanks, Greg

Offline dlu@canishe.com

  • Posts: 101
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #68 on: October 16, 2018, 06:53 PM »
Thinking of purchasing one of the dog hole drilling/routing  systems to make my own MFT style tables for a project I'm working on.  Looking for feedback from anyone who's used the Woodpecker, Dominofix, or the UJK Parf system.  I've watched all the videos available online ... just looking for actual users input.  Thanks.

My take would be to avoid all of them and use a "holy rail" and the LR-32 router attachment and 20 mm bit. In my experience the results are dead on and you're using tools you already have or getting tools that have broader use than just making MFT holes. The method that I use is an adaption of Timothy Wilmot's (of MF-TC fame) method, it is easy and reliable and if you thing you'll need to do it more than once the first pass has you well on your way to making a jig.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5155
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #69 on: October 16, 2018, 09:41 PM »
My take would be to avoid all of them and use a "holy rail" and the LR-32 router attachment and 20 mm bit. In my experience the results are dead on and you're using tools you already have or getting tools that have broader use than just making MFT holes. The method that I use is an adaption of Timothy Wilmot's (of MF-TC fame) method, it is easy and reliable and if you thing you'll need to do it more than once the first pass has you well on your way to making a jig.

I’m siding with you...the Festool bit cuts a nice hole with no burning and the holey rail makes it impossible to fail. If I were to do it all again, I’d go with the LR-32 system or hire a CNC router.

Offline gnlman

  • Posts: 163
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #70 on: October 16, 2018, 10:02 PM »
Hi. Douglas could you explain how you used your lr32 system to achieve this. I've only seen one method that looks repeatable just using the system, and it was running 2 rows of holes parallel down the outside of the top and using the edge guide pins to locate and move the rail down those holes while plunging the 20 mm holes across the top. (hope that makes sense)...the edge guide pins appear to be 6mm so the standard bit that comes with system would not work...would need a 6mm router bit which is available from festool..it seems you would be limited in how long the top could be as I only have the shorter rail...unless there was a way to reset the system accurately. The jig to me seemed to be a simpler solution at the time...had I known about the router/bushing issues I think I would have tried the lr32 idea first..will need to break out the lr32 and do some more investigating...but still hoping for a fix to the jig as it seems faster and easier....that is if it can be made to work..and yes I find the 20mm festool bit makes fine holes for the qwas dogs I have as well....
Thanks, Greg

Offline DynaGlide

  • Posts: 248
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #71 on: October 16, 2018, 10:28 PM »
1. Cut a sheet larger than needed for final top perfectly square.

2. Reference your lr32 off one end with the longitudinal stop, bore 20mm holes 96mm on center (every 3 on the rail).

3. Now reference off the same end with the lr32 but on the opposite side and repeat. You now have two rows of holes perfectly parallel 96mm on center. Using some rail dogs you can attach the guide rail to these parallel holes and bore 20mm holes every 3 for 96mm centers. Lift the rail and rail dogs and move down and repeat. This creates a grid of holes for your top. When you're done cut off the two rows created in steps 1 and 2.

Hope this helps. I'll look for pictures from when I did it.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 10:34 PM by DynaGlide »

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1554
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #72 on: October 16, 2018, 10:39 PM »
1. Cut a sheet larger than needed for final top perfectly square.
Here is your challenge #1.
BTW, this is how I did it, but without LR32. Equal spacing is easy and can be done with a simple jig. Perpendicular alignment is tricky.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 10:48 PM by Svar »

Offline Sometimewoodworker

  • Posts: 746
    • Jerome's  Other work
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #73 on: October 16, 2018, 11:45 PM »
If you already have an MFT then here's another way to skin the cat
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, HL 850, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1554
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #74 on: October 16, 2018, 11:50 PM »
If you already have an MFT then here's another way to skin the cat
If you have MFT than just copy it with a pattern bit.

Offline Sometimewoodworker

  • Posts: 746
    • Jerome's  Other work
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #75 on: October 17, 2018, 01:06 AM »
If you already have an MFT then here's another way to skin the cat
If you have MFT than just copy it with a pattern bit.

I don't know of any MFT owner who has decided to do that, though it certainly could work.

You would have to drill clearance holes first so it seems that it is the slowest method and most error prone method, just look at the woodpecker jig reviews with each hole needing about 5 passes, I don't see any reason that a pattern bit would be any better or faster.
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, HL 850, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5155
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #76 on: October 17, 2018, 01:53 AM »
You would have to drill clearance holes first so it seems that it is the slowest method and most error prone method, just look at the woodpecker jig reviews with each hole needing about 5 passes, I don't see any reason that a pattern bit would be any better or faster.

I’m with you on this one. Somethings work well and somethings just barely work at all. That’s where the copy bit for this application comes in. It’s a painfull experience if you’ve tried it and I’ll never go back there again.

If it’s only one or two holes, you will persevere, more than that and it’s just becomes some exercise in self flagellation. Just chuck a 20mm bit of your choice in the router and go forth.


Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1554
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #77 on: October 17, 2018, 03:18 AM »
You would have to drill clearance holes first so it seems that it is the slowest method and most error prone method, just look at the woodpecker jig reviews with each hole needing about 5 passes, I don't see any reason that a pattern bit would be any better or faster.

I’m with you on this one. Somethings work well and somethings just barely work at all. That’s where the copy bit for this application comes in. It’s a painfull experience if you’ve tried it and I’ll never go back there again.

If it’s only one or two holes, you will persevere, more than that and it’s just becomes some exercise in self flagellation. Just chuck a 20mm bit of your choice in the router and go forth.
I disagree. I've done it both ways. I replicated existing top with pattern bit and a number of people on this forum have done the same. It is fast. Clearance holes for MFT size plate 5 min time. Yes, final routing requires steady hand. Worked perfectly for me. Advantage: 1) no error propagation due to multiple template repositioning, 2) no need to center bushing and bit (royal PITA with festool routers), 3) no blowout at the bottom.
Ideally, I would prefer phenolic template with 42 (6 x 7) 20 mm holes at 100 mm step (don't care for 96 mm).
« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 03:28 AM by Svar »

Offline Sometimewoodworker

  • Posts: 746
    • Jerome's  Other work
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #78 on: October 17, 2018, 04:37 AM »
Clearly you are very much better at using a pattern bit and many times faster than I am, as this is a job I would never describe as fast or easy. As to blowout a sacrificial backing stops that.

You mentioned 5 minutes. Is that for all the holes (incredibly, unbelievably, amazingly fast under 4 seconds each) or for each hole (painfully slow at over 6 hours for the standard 77 )

Ideally, I would prefer phenolic template with 42 (6 x 7) 20 mm holes at 100 mm step (don't care for 96 mm).
So why not get one? CNC shops are very common now so it shouldn't cost more than a few hundred US$
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, HL 850, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5155
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #79 on: October 17, 2018, 10:43 AM »
Well Svar you're better with that router than I am. [smile] 

I MFT'd some 18mm thick Baltic birch, maybe that makes a difference?  I've never tried any MDF so I don't know how smoothly that goes.

The Baltic birch went incredibly slow, the first 19 holes took 2.5 hours and the next 21 holes took just over 2 hours. For the final 20 holes, I swapped the 1/2" router bit for a Festool 20mm boring bit. The last 20 holes took 30 minutes.

Here's a random shot of 9 of the holes where I used a 1/2" router bit versus 9 of the holes when I switched to the Fetool boring bit.

In the first photo I can see that there are 5 or 6 holes that are wonky.
Proceeding left to right, it appears that there are issues with holes 1, 4, 5, 7, 9 and possibly hole 8. Tough to tell and I certainly can't remember as this was done 4-5 months ago.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2018, 10:15 AM by Cheese »

Offline dlu@canishe.com

  • Posts: 101
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #80 on: October 17, 2018, 10:50 AM »
1. Cut a sheet larger than needed for final top perfectly square.
Here is your challenge #1.
BTW, this is how I did it, but without LR32. Equal spacing is easy and can be done with a simple jig. Perpendicular alignment is tricky.

Actually, you only need one corner to be perfect. Then you work off of the two edges with the perfect 90° angle between them.

Offline gnlman

  • Posts: 163
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #81 on: October 17, 2018, 03:22 PM »
Thanks Dynaglide....funny I'd seen another video where the fellow used a wooden spacer....never thought about the rail being a spacer ..lots of good comments and ideas here on this subject, thanks everyone for chiming in.
Greg
« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 03:28 PM by gnlman »

Offline Sometimewoodworker

  • Posts: 746
    • Jerome's  Other work
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #82 on: October 17, 2018, 09:02 PM »
Thanks Dynaglide....funny I'd seen another video where the fellow used a wooden spacer....never thought about the rail being a spacer ..lots of good comments and ideas here on this subject, thanks everyone for chiming in.
Greg

Given that svar's time of 5 minutes per hole is accurate, and Cheese's times of 6 to 8 minutes per hole, more represented the real time, also that you need a level of skill and dedication that is difficult to maintain or achieve for the time needed just for 1 MFT sized top. It is clear that any kind of pattern bit routing is a poor choice needing between 6 and 10 hours for 1 top.

So using a plunge 20mm bit for the holes is the only sensible option.

So having established that there are some options.
1) make your own (say) 30mm hole template full size.
2) make your own (say) 30mm hole template wide but short.
3) buy a 30mm hole template.
4) use the LR 32 directly with no template
5) use the Parf Guide 1 or the new Parf guide 2

Arguments for the above.

1) I did that so am either experienced (or biased you choose). It takes quite a long time to make and needs really close attention to detail. You don't really know if it's perfect or off by a mm or two until after it's made and used (DAMHIKT). If perfect then it is with out question the fastest way to make several (more than 3) tops even if over a long time. It is quite limiting in that smaller tops are not so easy. It avoids any miss alignment of the copy ring problems if you keep the same orientation (not difficult to do)

2) has almost all the advantages above while being more versatile, easier and faster to make, providing fewer opportunities for miss alignment in making. It takes longer than 1) to make a large top and gives its own chances of miss alignment when repositioning.

3) perfect accuracy of holes in the template, small so smaller tops are easily made, if your copy ring is correctly aligned is (without any question at all) the fastest way for larger sized tops if you make less than 4or 5. The problems of copy ring alignment are mentioned in other posts. My jig is in customs now and I have to make a 300 km trip to get it so will report later when I've got it.

4) certainly a reasonable choice if you are only making 1 and you have ( or want an excuse to get) an LR32. There is no alignment (centring of the bit) issue, you have to be really careful as a mistake will make any time saving over a template irrelevant as you will need to remake the complete top

5) (versions 1 & 2 are functionally the same.) Advantages: for any size of top you can decide at any time that you need 20mm holes in any of the grid positions, your only requirement is that you drill the 3mm holes for the complete grid first if you want to position 20mm holes perfectly anywhere anytime. (For example You could make a cutting station for the 5 meter rail in less than 20 minutes. No other system comes close to doing that, if they can do it at all.) The option to just drill the 3mm grid and add 20mm holes later is amazingly versatile and makes using surfaces never designed for the 20mm grid an option you can use after designs and made. You can make 20mm x 96mm grids on different patterns permitting some unusual clamping and cutting options.

Disadvantages: if you need a large size complete grid it is slow, much faster than a pattern bit, much slower than a template. The repositioning of the guide takes more time than you think it will.

The Parf guide IMNSHO shines in making a smaller number of (perfectly aligned to the grid) holes that can be widely separated, adding holes to surfaces you didn't think of originally, making a single row in a narrow board.

My opinion:
I made the big jig and would not have done so if I knew then what I know now, it was good practice and education.

I have the Parf Guide 1 and am finding new uses for it, it is as accurate as suggested, not much skill needed (but certainly imagination). An incidental benefit is 2x1 meter straight edges

I need some complete grid surfaces so have The Dominofix MFT jig on the way in customs now so will update later
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, HL 850, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1554
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #83 on: October 17, 2018, 09:59 PM »
Given that svar's time of 5 minutes per hole is accurate
No, it's grossly inaccurate. It is not at all what I wrote.  [big grin]
« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 10:06 PM by Svar »

Offline JD2720

  • Posts: 1029
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #84 on: October 17, 2018, 10:25 PM »
What am I missing? I have watched the videos of the different jigs to drill the 20mm grid of holes.
The jig are expensive & it takes a lot of time to drill a large grid of 20mm holes.

Why not buy a replacement MFT top & a 20mm bit. Clamp the top to the the surface that the 20mm hole grid will be drilled in.
Then use the holes in the replacement top as a guide for the new grid. By doing this, a lot of 20mm holes can be drilled without moving the replacement top template.
Or better yet if someone already has a MFT, remove the top & use it as the template. 

Offline Sometimewoodworker

  • Posts: 746
    • Jerome's  Other work
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #85 on: October 17, 2018, 10:29 PM »
Given that svar's time of 5 minutes per hole is accurate
No, it's grossly inaccurate. It is not at all what I wrote.  [big grin]

You said "Clearance holes for MFT size plate 5 min time."

You haven't made clear what that relates to, as total time is impossible and given that Cheese reported 7.14 minutes per hole for his first set and 5.7 for the second set my assumption of your meaning of 5 minutes per hole for you is reasonable.

But please make clear how long it did really take
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, HL 850, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5155
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #86 on: October 17, 2018, 10:46 PM »
Well just wanting to throw more gas on this fire because that’s the pyro that I am, when it comes to me stating the hole boring machining times, that included unclamping the jig, repositioning the jig, indexing the jig and then reclamping the jig before I moved on to the next hole. So if that averages out to 6 minutes per hole, actual router time was probably 3-4 minutes per hole.

This is the method I used.
Align the jig.
Bias the jig.
Clamp the jig.
Plunge the 1/2" diameter router bit.
Clean up the hole diameter.
Remove the router and inspect the hole for out of roundness conditions. See previous photos.
Reinsert the router and clean up the anomalies.
Remove the router and inspect the hole for out of roundness conditions once again.
Move onto the next hole.

That’s a tedious process...as they say in the hotel business, “bada book, bada boom”.

Translated into woodworker language that would be, chuck up a Festool 20mm boring bit and be done with it. We all have bigger fish to fry.  [big grin]



« Last Edit: October 18, 2018, 09:57 AM by Cheese »

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1554
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #87 on: October 17, 2018, 10:49 PM »
Given that svar's time of 5 minutes per hole is accurate
No, it's grossly inaccurate. It is not at all what I wrote.  [big grin]

You said "Clearance holes for MFT size plate 5 min time."

You haven't made clear what that relates to, as total time is impossible and given that Cheese reported 7.14 minutes per hole for his first set and 5.7 for the second set my assumption of your meaning of 5 minutes per hole for you is reasonable.

But please make clear how long it did really take
I was talking about 13 mm pilot holes only (for the pattern bit to go through). I clamp existing mft plate over a piece of mdf and just punch holes using a drill. It is fast, perhaps not 5 but 10 min per plate, but fast. I use a short piece of plastic pipe as a bushing to roughly center the 13 mm drill bit inside MFT's 20 mm hole. Drop the bushing, drill, repeat. No need for accuracy or any layout at this stage.
Then flip the entire thing and widen the holes from 13 mm to 20 mm with a top (end) bearing pattern bit. How long could it take to plunge and do couple circles with router to shave 3 mm of mdf?
The entire fabrication of a new MFT size top takes an hour conservatively. (Just holes, no trimming to size etc.)

Sorry for the confusion.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 11:07 PM by Svar »

Offline Sometimewoodworker

  • Posts: 746
    • Jerome's  Other work
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #88 on: October 17, 2018, 10:52 PM »
What am I missing? I have watched the videos of the different jigs to drill the 20mm grid of holes.

That there are many more used for the 20mm x 96mm pattern of holes than an MFT top, that using an MFT top doesn't work for many patterns of holes, that the MFT top template doesn't work for an offset grid, that an MFT top is not significantly less expensive than any other jig and is only possibly better value if you have or want an MFT though using the top that you will use as a jig (for anything other than pattern routing) is quite likely to enlarge its holes so not being a good option.

There are probably more but that's a quick selection
« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 11:06 PM by Sometimewoodworker »
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, HL 850, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/

Offline Sometimewoodworker

  • Posts: 746
    • Jerome's  Other work
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #89 on: October 17, 2018, 11:05 PM »
Well just wanting to throw more gas on this fire because that’s the pyro that I am, when it comes to me stating the hole boring machining times, that included unclamping the jig, repositioning the jig, indexing the jig and then reclamping the jig before I moved on to the next hole. So if that averages out to 6 minutes per hole, actual router time was probably 3-4 minutes per hole.
 [big grin]

Well a nicely fire is useful to dispose of badly made tops [eek]

All of that is essential to making the holes so the 3-4 minutes would not be a real time quote & even if it's a gross overstatement you would still be looking at a long time
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, HL 850, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5155
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #90 on: October 17, 2018, 11:14 PM »
All of that is essential to making the holes so the 3-4 minutes would not be a real time quote & even if it's a gross overstatement you would still be looking at a long time

Yes, a very long time. That’s while I’ll never go there again.  [big grin]

The older you become, the more time becomes precious. This may sound stupid but it is the truth. We will all identify with that statement at some time.  [smile]

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Sometimewoodworker

  • Posts: 746
    • Jerome's  Other work
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #91 on: October 17, 2018, 11:19 PM »

The entire fabrication of a new MFT size top takes an hour conservatively. (Just holes, no trimming to size etc.)

At under 47 seconds per perfect hole your skills are clearly way beyond anything I could ever aspire to.

The system you use is certainly a really good one if you use patten bits and it is a great idea to use 20 mm pipe as a protective guide
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, HL 850, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/

Offline Sometimewoodworker

  • Posts: 746
    • Jerome's  Other work
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #92 on: October 17, 2018, 11:58 PM »
A couple of examples of Parf system holes and a top that will get at least 4 location holes

286430-0

286432-1

286434-2
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, HL 850, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/

Offline dlu@canishe.com

  • Posts: 101
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #93 on: October 18, 2018, 09:49 AM »
The outer two rows of holes (your x-axis) are also made with the 20 mm bit, if you've got enough extra material it doesn't matter a lot where you put them relative to the final grid pattern on the top (you can trim when you are done to get the edge spacing that you want).

The way that Timothy Wilmot does it is to use a pair of rail dogs to index in the outer holes so that the rail becomes the y-axis when you are cutting the "real" holes. The key to the accuracy of the pattern is keeping the rail dog solidly locked down. I found the rail dogs were tedious to get in and out of their holes. The next time I do it, I'm going to think about using the LR-32 indexing stop to register the rail and use conventional dogs as rail stops. I'll have to be more careful about ensuring that the rail is against the dogs if I do that.

Hi. Douglas could you explain how you used your lr32 system to achieve this. I've only seen one method that looks repeatable just using the system, and it was running 2 rows of holes parallel down the outside of the top and using the edge guide pins to locate and move the rail down those holes while plunging the 20 mm holes across the top. (hope that makes sense)...the edge guide pins appear to be 6mm so the standard bit that comes with system would not work...would need a 6mm router bit which is available from festool..it seems you would be limited in how long the top could be as I only have the shorter rail...unless there was a way to reset the system accurately. The jig to me seemed to be a simpler solution at the time...had I known about the router/bushing issues I think I would have tried the lr32 idea first..will need to break out the lr32 and do some more investigating...but still hoping for a fix to the jig as it seems faster and easier....that is if it can be made to work..and yes I find the 20mm festool bit makes fine holes for the qwas dogs I have as well....
Thanks, Greg

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5155
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #94 on: October 18, 2018, 10:08 AM »
A couple of examples of Parf system holes and a top that will get at least 4 location holes

Is that mahogany ply?

Offline ctvader

  • Posts: 29
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #95 on: October 18, 2018, 03:03 PM »
I was given the LR32 rail in error when I bought my TS55.  :-)  However, I have a bosch 1617 EVS and can't afford OF1010 (and don't need) router.  Here are my thoughts: (1) I will buy the UJK Parf Guide when I get the funds.  Seems so simple to use (2) I wish I could use my Bosch router with the LR32 rail.  Why can't festool make adapters to use with other tools... Oh well. 

Offline DynaGlide

  • Posts: 248
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #96 on: October 18, 2018, 03:49 PM »
Just drill mounting holes to use your current router

Offline dlu@canishe.com

  • Posts: 101
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #97 on: October 18, 2018, 06:19 PM »
I was given the LR32 rail in error when I bought my TS55.  :-)  However, I have a bosch 1617 EVS and can't afford OF1010 (and don't need) router. 

The clamp screws on the LR32 plate that hold the router might be able to catch your router - or if not maybe you could drill some hole in the plate to pick up the baseplate holes in your router. That's the way the OF1400 attaches.

Offline ctvader

  • Posts: 29
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #98 on: October 18, 2018, 06:39 PM »
Thanks guys... I’ll try that.

Offline Dick Mahany

  • Posts: 396
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #99 on: October 18, 2018, 07:16 PM »
I was given the LR32 rail in error when I bought my TS55.  :-)  However, I have a bosch 1617 EVS and can't afford OF1010 (and don't need) router. 

The clamp screws on the LR32 plate that hold the router might be able to catch your router - or if not maybe you could drill some hole in the plate to pick up the baseplate holes in your router. That's the way the OF1400 attaches.

The 1617 EVS fits the LR32 with a simple mod.  A search should turn up several older topics on this.




Offline Sometimewoodworker

  • Posts: 746
    • Jerome's  Other work
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #100 on: October 18, 2018, 09:12 PM »
A couple of examples of Parf system holes and a top that will get at least 4 location holes

Is that mahogany ply?
No it's a cheap local 20mm ply about ฿600 per sheet, I do have some really nice hardwood ply with a good thickness top ply but that cost ฿4,600 per 20mm sheet I can't tell you the species but maybe there is someone who can translate

286459-0
« Last Edit: October 18, 2018, 09:18 PM by Sometimewoodworker »
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, HL 850, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 1065
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #101 on: October 19, 2018, 12:24 PM »
1. Cut a sheet larger than needed for final top perfectly square.

2. Reference your lr32 off one end with the longitudinal stop, bore 20mm holes 96mm on center (every 3 on the rail).

3. Now reference off the same end with the lr32 but on the opposite side and repeat. You now have two rows of holes perfectly parallel 96mm on center. Using some rail dogs you can attach the guide rail to these parallel holes and bore 20mm holes every 3 for 96mm centers. Lift the rail and rail dogs and move down and repeat. This creates a grid of holes for your top. When you're done cut off the two rows created in steps 1 and 2.

Hope this helps. I'll look for pictures from when I did it.
The holes for the two alignment rows (step two) could also be made with the 5mm bit included in the LR32 set, then shelve pins will do the job of the dogs (but with less play). Less space (for alignment holes) to cut away later and less work for the 20mm cutter (you can plunge way faster with the 5mm one).

I agree with going for LR32 instead a MFT hole jig, especially should the one-trick-pony jig be a reasonable fraction of the cost to get a LR32 set (and holey rail, if needed) as the LR32 has way more use cases (and likely a higher resell value).

Offline gnlman

  • Posts: 163
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #102 on: October 19, 2018, 02:14 PM »
Another good idea...I've been looking at the lr32 method some more....I have the shorter holy rail (1400 I believe) so it seems to me you would be limited length wise (I want to make a 42x72 inch top) on a top unless there is a reliable and accurate method to move the rail along the 2 parallel edges. I know if your top is cut perfect in 32mm increments you can flip the rail and register from the other end, but getting it dead perfect might be a bit challenging....I suppose you could use a spacer, but then again it would have to be perfect...anyone have a fix?...lol
Also, my dominofix jig arrived today...don't have a festool 30mm guide bushing yet for my OF1400 as my local supplier doesn't have any..might have to order one. I did order the trend guide bushing as discussed in this thread, but it's still in transit from the US.
thanks, Greg

Offline Corwin

  • Posts: 2640
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #103 on: October 19, 2018, 02:31 PM »
Incra's Incremental Track can play nicely with the LR32 system.
Looks like your rabbit joint is a hare off! ;)

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 3603
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #104 on: October 19, 2018, 03:02 PM »
Incra's Incremental Track can play nicely with the LR32 system.

Do they have a metric version?

Offline Corwin

  • Posts: 2640
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #105 on: October 19, 2018, 04:31 PM »
Incra's Incremental Track can play nicely with the LR32 system.

Do they have a metric version?

I'm not sure if they offer the track with the metric tracks or not, but they do offer conversion kits that include both the metric racks and the metric scales -- used to cost $6 for the kit 12 years ago, now it is about $10. And, it looks like their metric racks are now orange rather than light green like the metric racks I purchased years ago.

While I haven't used these Incremental Tracks to make MFT-type tops, I have used them when making my fence setup for my MFT which has 20mm holes spaced 96mm apart so it will attach to my MFT using my cam-lock dogs that fit through the holes in my fence base and into the MFT's system holes such that it both locates the fence and locks it in place. With two lengths of Incremental Track, and the conversion kits, you should be able to align a LR32 guide rail to make system holes in a table top.
Looks like your rabbit joint is a hare off! ;)

Offline TrackTubesGuy

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 89
    • TrackTubes.com
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #106 on: October 19, 2018, 05:20 PM »
Also, my dominofix jig arrived today...don't have a festool 30mm guide bushing yet for my OF1400 as my local supplier doesn't have any..might have to order one. I did order the trend guide bushing as discussed in this thread, but it's still in transit from the US.
thanks, Greg

I just received my Trend 30mm guide bushing and it fits the Dominofix and Festool adapter perfectly.  I spoke with Festool service a couple days ago and was told I could send my OF1400 in for a look, but I'm not to that point yet.  Service guy said sometimes they can flip the removable mounting plate 180 degrees, and/or can bend the clip-in tabs slightly to make it center better.  It didn't sound too encouraging ... I'm hoping this new setup will be centered better .. will let you know tomorrow. 

Offline gnlman

  • Posts: 163
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #107 on: October 19, 2018, 05:41 PM »
TTG. Good to hear the trend guide bushing fits perfectly!! I ordered one as well, just waiting for it to arrive....I thought in case the OF1400 can't be made to work, I'd be able to use the trend bushing in another router if I had to buy one. My dominofix jig arrived today. I tested it out on my mft, and it does have slight movement on some of the front holes on my mft top...rotate it 90 degrees, and it's rock solid...my top is about 8 years old, and wondering if I have used the front holes moreso than others also my shop is not always heated, which I'm fixing this year...lol
Let me know how it goes...I thought of bending the guide bushing tabs as well, but my guide bushing adapter does not move at all....
I really like the of1400 so if I have to, I'll buy a non festool router (with dust collection) that can be centered using a mandrel to use with guide bushings.
thanks, Greg

Offline Sometimewoodworker

  • Posts: 746
    • Jerome's  Other work
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #108 on: October 19, 2018, 07:16 PM »
Another good idea...I've been looking at the lr32 method some more....I have the shorter holy rail (1400 I believe) so it seems to me you would be limited length wise (I want to make a 42x72 inch top) on a top unless there is a reliable and accurate method to move the rail along the 2 parallel edges. I know if your top is cut perfect in 32mm increments you can flip the rail and register from the other end, but getting it dead perfect might be a bit challenging....I suppose you could use a spacer, but then again it would have to be perfect...anyone have a fix?...lol
I also only have the old short LR32 rail and had to extend it to do some of the last locating holes. I just joined a non holy rail after making as many location holes as I could. Re positioning was easy as the exact distance from the side of the board was simple to maintain and I used the already drilled holes to ensure longitudinal position (with the router off). You only need the router to fit into about 3 previously bored holes to be confident of the rail location then clamp.
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, HL 850, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/

Offline TrackTubesGuy

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 89
    • TrackTubes.com
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #109 on: October 19, 2018, 07:30 PM »
@gnlman  .. There's a problem with using the Trend bushing.  When using the Dominofix and plunging through 19 mm MDF, the depth of the plunge is such that you can only insert the router bit shaft into the collet approx. 1/4", otherwise, the collet nut hits the top of the brass guide bushing.  It can be adjusted to work .. I did it .. but there's not much room to play with and I really want more of the bit shank inserted into the collet.  One good thing, it did solve my problem.  Although tight, I was able to quickly plunge 4 rows of holes and turn the jig 90 degrees and two retaining dogs lined up with the holes I had just plunged.  That tells me my original problem is the Festool 30 mm clip-in guide bushing is off .. most likely tabs need tweaking.  Think I'll tackle that tomorrow. 

Offline gnlman

  • Posts: 163
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #110 on: October 19, 2018, 08:15 PM »
Hmmm that is not much for the bit to be in the collet....but glad it worked...I have a dimar 20m bit with a longer shaft and it's half inch...but it's not a plunge bit. I used it with a jig I made to enlarge 3/4 inch dog holes on a table I bought....I'll check it out tomorrow to make sure shaft is longer..might be a fix but you'd have to plunge a larger hole first...not sure about that....
Thanks, Greg
« Last Edit: October 19, 2018, 08:17 PM by gnlman »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5155
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #111 on: October 20, 2018, 01:48 AM »
Service guy said sometimes they...........can bend the clip-in tabs slightly to make it center better.  It didn't sound too encouraging ...

Hmmm, that’s not the right answer...

How confident would you be if you brought your car in to be aligned and they suggested that the tie rods or A-arms could be bent slightly to adjust toe-in? I’d bring it to a different shop  [eek]

Remember that the insert will not move laterally along the horizontal axis created by the 2 push in tabs. The insert however does move at 90 degrees to that axis to the tune of approximately .010-.015”. So the bottom line is, you can mitigate insert movement but you have to be keenly aware of the direction of your router movements versus the axis created by the 2 push tabs.

Any router movement along the axis created by the 2 push tabs will not move the insert, while router movement at 90 degrees to that axis will produce the maximum amount of insert movement. Movement at +_ 45 degrees to that axis will also produce approx 70% of the maximum potential insert movement.

I will still use my 1010 over the 1400 if absolute router bit concentricity is a must.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2018, 02:01 AM by Cheese »

Offline TrackTubesGuy

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 89
    • TrackTubes.com
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #112 on: October 20, 2018, 06:53 AM »
I will still use my 1010 over the 1400 if absolute router bit concentricity is a must.

Going to Festool Connect next week .. guessing I might be adding to my Festool collection?

Offline Claimdude

  • Posts: 338
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #113 on: October 20, 2018, 09:37 AM »
Has anyone here used the Shaper Origin to make an MFT style top?

Jack

Offline TrackTubesGuy

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 89
    • TrackTubes.com
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #114 on: October 20, 2018, 10:26 AM »
Has anyone here used the Shaper Origin to make an MFT style top?

Jack

Was on their website and saw this.  I'm going, so will be a good opportunity to see them make one?

Shaper Origin @ Festool Connect
« Last Edit: October 20, 2018, 10:30 AM by TrackTubesGuy »

Offline rst

  • Posts: 2036
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #115 on: October 20, 2018, 05:21 PM »
I did not mine to make more tops...I have six or seven now.  I did however Use the grid function to test for the Festool grid and it works great.  I've made all mine with the LR-32 and my 1400 using Festool's router bit.  One thing the Shaper would be great for would be making hand cutouts and other specialized openings not to mention patterns.  The biggest thing I've used it for was a 49" diameter, .250 acrylic round.  The circle function as well as the other stock functions makes it easier for a computer drawing program 
illiterate Like me to make it useful.

Offline Sometimewoodworker

  • Posts: 746
    • Jerome's  Other work
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #116 on: October 21, 2018, 02:47 AM »
Here is an example of using the Parf system as a location and fixing, I was reminded that it was something that I had intended to do but forgot about. The 20mm holes are not all the way through but about 15mm deep.
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, HL 850, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/

Offline dlu@canishe.com

  • Posts: 101
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #117 on: October 21, 2018, 02:55 PM »

The holes for the two alignment rows (step two) could also be made with the 5mm bit included in the LR32 set, then shelve pins will do the job of the dogs (but with less play). Less space (for alignment holes) to cut away later and less work for the 20mm cutter (you can plunge way faster with the 5mm one).


I like that idea - both the savings in time and waste material are both attractive. Would you use the 5mm shelf pins to register against the back of the rail? Or do you have an idea about how to make 5mm "rail dogs?"

Offline TrackTubesGuy

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 89
    • TrackTubes.com
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #118 on: October 21, 2018, 04:22 PM »
So after spending an hour or so yesterday trying every conceivable combination of mounting plate, guide bushing, and router handle direction when plunging with the Dominofix, I finally got everything to line up perfectly.  I had to plunge the holes with the handle facing in the orientation shown in the photo .. don't ask me why, but it works and I'm going with it.  I'm fairly certain the problem is the Festool guide bushing being out ever so slightly so I will be picking up another one, just to make sure.  Once I figured this out, I was able to plunge a 7 x 8 pattern in only 11 minute .. and taking my time.  Easily could do an MFT3 sized top in 15 min. or less .. very impressive.  Only issue now is Festool 20mm bit makes the holes just a tad looser than I would like, which others have mentioned before.  Not a big deal for the wings I'm making for my sliding table system, but would like them tighter if I was using them for tracksaw rail alignment. 

Offline gnlman

  • Posts: 163
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #119 on: October 21, 2018, 05:35 PM »
Hey TTG. Good to hear it worked out. I take it by the pictures you didn't use the trend bushing. Was the trend bushing worse, or just too scary because you couldn't chuck it up very far? I still have not rec'd my trend bushing, nor the festool one, so have dominofix jig sitting there waiting to try. Hmmm not sure what dogs you are using, I use Qwas dogs, and the festool holes seem to fit OK...I have another bit made by dimar that is very slightly smaller it is pretty snug, but it's not a plunge bit...having said that, I did try plunging the dimar bit, and although slow it did work...I also just discovered that the ujk system is coming out with an upgraded version for dog holes called the Mark 2. The rulers have larger holes, and the drill guide bushings fit in the holes so over time you don't wear the holes out on the ruler causing some issues...although for just home use the original system sounds like it lasts a long time before that issue arises.
Thanks for posting your results!
Greg

PS scored a slightly used metric of1010 online this morning being shipped tomorrow...wondering if collets are same size as of1400...I suspect they are so I'll have to buy the festool guide bushing for the 1010 as well...these holes are costing me a lot of money....lol

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5155
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #120 on: October 21, 2018, 05:59 PM »
...wondering if collets are same size as of1400...I suspect they are so I'll have to buy the festool guide bushing for the 1010 as well...these holes are costing me a lot of money....lol

Sorry... [sad]

The same collets are used in the 700 & 1010, while the 1400 & 2200 use the same collets.

You got the “costing me a lot of money” thing right.  [big grin]

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline gnlman

  • Posts: 163
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #121 on: October 21, 2018, 06:22 PM »
Nope I'm sorry....I should have been clearer. I meant physical size like the OD of the collet not what size bits they take...TTG had indicated in one of his posts that the 30mm Trend bushing he purchased was stopping his 0f1400 collet from plunging thru 19mm top unless he only chucked the festool 20mm bit in a bout a quarter inch....I was being hopeful that the OD of the 8mm collet on the 1010 might be a smaller OD...but thinking they are probably the same OD for all the sizes...I'll have to wait til the 1010 arrives or someone chimes in.lol
Greg

Offline Sometimewoodworker

  • Posts: 746
    • Jerome's  Other work
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #122 on: October 21, 2018, 06:34 PM »
I also just discovered that the ujk system is coming out with an upgraded version for dog holes called the Mark 2.
Greg

Humm,  that be the the one I mentioned in my post 4 days ago? ;)

Only issue now is Festool 20mm bit makes the holes just a tad looser than I would like, which others have mentioned before. 

A bit that is slightly large is quite easy to fix with extremely cautious use of diamond stones, having said that my Festool 20mm bit is precise. So either the later bits are larger or you may be using a different bit to the one I do. I can check the part number later.

There is the chance that the items you are using in the holes are slightly undersized
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 06:41 PM by Sometimewoodworker »
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, HL 850, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 5155
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #123 on: October 21, 2018, 07:33 PM »
Here’s a shot of the 8mm collet for the 1400 & 1010.

Offline gnlman

  • Posts: 163
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #124 on: October 22, 2018, 12:25 AM »
Thanks Cheese. That is good news for me and my dominofix/trend bushing combo I was hoping would work....lol
Greg

Offline TSO_Products

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 45
    • TSO Products LLC
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #125 on: October 23, 2018, 09:02 PM »
For those of you using the Parf Guide System, the new Parf Dust Port is a truly useful, time saving and relatively inexpensive accessory.
In stock now at tsoproducts.com

enjoy!
Hans

PS: Mark 2 Parf Guide System shipment on order for TSO stock

Offline Sometimewoodworker

  • Posts: 746
    • Jerome's  Other work
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #126 on: October 23, 2018, 10:38 PM »
PS scored a slightly used metric of1010 online this morning being shipped tomorrow...wondering if collets are same size as of1400...I suspect they are so I'll have to buy the festool guide bushing for the 1010 as well...these holes are costing me a lot of money....lol

But you have a really good reason to buy new (to you) toys.

I've just picked up my DominoFix jig from customs. The OF1400 bushing is an exact fit in the jig, I don't have time to test the hole drilling yet as SWMBO just bought a new/used car and I have to fly down to Bangkok to pick it up and drive the 600km back.
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, HL 850, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/

Offline dlu@canishe.com

  • Posts: 101
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #127 on: October 23, 2018, 11:03 PM »
PS scored a slightly used metric of1010 online this morning being shipped tomorrow...wondering if collets are same size as of1400...I suspect they are so I'll have to buy the festool guide bushing for the 1010 as well...these holes are costing me a lot of money....lol

They are not. The OF1010 collets are quite a bit smaller than the OF1400. That gives you a reason to buy the 2200 and the 700...

Offline gnlman

  • Posts: 163
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #128 on: October 24, 2018, 12:19 AM »
lol already have the 700 and a older PC 7518 keeps the of2200 away....mind you it's been in the router table for years..lol
hoping the 1010 and bushing arrive tomorrow.

Offline dlu@canishe.com

  • Posts: 101
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #129 on: October 24, 2018, 12:31 PM »
lol already have the 700 and a older PC 7518 keeps the of2200 away....mind you it's been in the router table for years..lol
hoping the 1010 and bushing arrive tomorrow.

The 700 collets will fit the 1010 - and vice versa - you have spares. Love my 7518.

Offline ctvader

  • Posts: 29
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #130 on: November 03, 2018, 09:40 AM »
Hi all - I used the UJK Parf Guide to drill my holes this morning.  Setup tp finish was ~60mins for a 3x5 top made of 1/2” plywood. 

I ordered from Axminster on Wednesday morning and rec’d it yesterday (I’m in CT).  The parf guide and two UJK 50MM super dogs (I think that’s the name) was $201, including shipping. 

The tool is flawless and super simple to use.  If you go this route, I would use a 1/4” chuck in the drill.  I used a Milwaukee drill/driver with a dewalt chuck - without this, the drill would get old in a hurry.  I used a wexley digital protractor, which measured dead on @ 90 degrees.  I used the Anderson plywood square against the rail and their was zero play.  I’ll try the 5 cut test tomorrow.

The videos by Dave Stanton, Peter and Matt Estlea () do a great job of explaining what to do. 

I tried other methods, which led to frustration and inaccurate hole pattern. 

Well worth the money.  I plan on making another top, made of MDF, this weekend.  Will update if needed.   

Offline Claimdude

  • Posts: 338
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #131 on: November 03, 2018, 09:50 AM »
ctvader,

Thanks for the info. I am trying to picture what you are referring to regarding the 1/4" chuck and drill quoted below. Would you mind clarifying for me? Also, did you get the MK II or the original jig?

" I would use a 1/4” chuck in the drill.  I used a Milwaukee drill/driver with a dewalt chuck - without this, the drill would get old in a hurry. "

Thanks
Jack

Offline ctvader

  • Posts: 29
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #132 on: November 03, 2018, 10:41 AM »
Jack,

The dewalt chuck is the Dewalt Rapid Load Holder (https://hardwareonlinestore.com/images/stories/virtuemart/product/304209.jpg), which seems similar to the Centrotec Chuck for Festool drills.  The UJK Guide i used was the original- I can’t see a reason, for my needs, to need the MKii. 

The Milwaukee drill was 18v and was just the right amount of power.

Jeff
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 12:58 PM by ctvader »

Offline gnlman

  • Posts: 163
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #133 on: November 03, 2018, 05:03 PM »
SUCCESS!!! Well I managed to get all the items I needed to give the dominofix mft jig a try....had to buy a of1010, trend guide bushing, festool mandrel and a leigh guide bushing jig so I could center the festool 20mm bit in the guide bushing....whew...as others have said holes are slightly larger with the festool bit, but qwas dogs seem to sit in those holes quite nicely...I did find the holes I drilled where ever so much larger than the dogs that came with the jig...I just kept forward pressure on the jig as I drilled the north/south holes, and didn't have to do a thing for the east/west holes....I don't think I would have had room to use the enclosed tape to pick up the slack. I'll try and post pictures, but never have much luck doing that here......
Thanks for all the help, especially TTG!!!
Greg

Well I've been trying for almost an hour to post pics..resized them..still no go...yeeesh...keep getting a message in preview about fakepath....I have managed to post pics before.....
Seems I got one...lol...didn't show in preview just noticed it when I went to edit...I'll keep trying...and yes I did read the tutorials..lol


287158-0


287160-1


287160-2
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 05:22 PM by gnlman »

Offline Dominofix

  • Retailer
  • *
  • Posts: 66
    • Dominofix
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #134 on: November 04, 2018, 08:06 AM »
Awesome to see it worked out!

SUCCESS!!! Well I managed to get all the items I needed to give the dominofix mft jig a try....had to buy a of1010, trend guide bushing, festool mandrel and a leigh guide bushing jig so I could center the festool 20mm bit in the guide bushing....whew...as others have said holes are slightly larger with the festool bit, but qwas dogs seem to sit in those holes quite nicely...I did find the holes I drilled where ever so much larger than the dogs that came with the jig...I just kept forward pressure on the jig as I drilled the north/south holes, and didn't have to do a thing for the east/west holes....I don't think I would have had room to use the enclosed tape to pick up the slack. I'll try and post pictures, but never have much luck doing that here......
Thanks for all the help, especially TTG!!!
Greg

Well I've been trying for almost an hour to post pics..resized them..still no go...yeeesh...keep getting a message in preview about fakepath....I have managed to post pics before.....
Seems I got one...lol...didn't show in preview just noticed it when I went to edit...I'll keep trying...and yes I did read the tutorials..lol


(Attachment Link)


(Attachment Link)


(Attachment Link)

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 744
Re: MFT Hole Jigs
« Reply #135 on: November 04, 2018, 07:13 PM »
glad you got it all worked out. For me it was strait forward. 1400, copy ring and the festool 20mm. I can see that dealing with the tolerance stack can be a problem with all the different manufactures that can be involved.