Author Topic: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors  (Read 16367 times)

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Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1165
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2016, 08:28 PM »
The reason they recommend two people is because the motors are very heavy and you have to lift them up to a fairly high point.

Paid about $2,000 for my Laguna 3hp HEPA, the newest model, too.  I hit an introductory 10% off sale.

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Offline blaszcsj

  • Posts: 293
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2016, 10:59 PM »
@RobBob so how do you like the Laguna and what do you have it hooked up to.
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Offline Huxleywood

  • Posts: 123
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2016, 11:18 PM »
Now the OP has established he has the height and lack of portability needs that allow most any of the hobby oriented cyclones it now comes to to a budget vs features vs efficacy vs fan curve vs ease of installation balance, the key here being this equation will be different for everyone. 

Quality 3rd party tests of all the available cyclones are near non-existent, the Wood magazine test of the CV is almost certainly based on a leaky system, it is too much of an outlier especially when it uses a known quality filter. 

I personally have owned a Oneida DGP, CV Max and a Chicago Blower/Torit all with 15 MERV or better filters and my particle meter tells me they were all very effective, the only machines/tools I wasn't/am not happy with were/are my 50" drum sander and miter saw but these were issues with capture more a result on the tool end. 

I get the short cyclones like the Laguna are a compelling solution, it is a one stop shop DC in a box.  All the bells and whistles are built in and you don't have to moonlight as an electrician to get them up and running with a remote and bin sensors.  Assuming no leaks (the best way to test is a Dylos) ALL the various flavors of DC will return air to the work space that is directly correlated with the quality of the filters.  These filters will last longer and allow acceptable flow longer with more surface area. 

There is nothing magic about DC it is simply impeller size/shape, hp to match the impeller, efficacy of seperation and post seperation filtration efficacy along with proper ducting and optimized capture at the machine.  The biggest place one can screw up picking a cyclone is poor filters, someone mentioned the Jet, the filters on the Jet are not HEPA. 

I know the Laguna is a neat package deal, some would call it stylish and if you follow Torben's lead even sexy but I subscribe to the idea that a cyclone is like a creepy uncle, best not seen or heard, build the cylone in, put your bin alarm on the outside and life in the shop is better, if you need sexy paint the cyclone "box" in grey and green and put framed pictures of a Domino in slinky dress on the walls. 

Someone mentioned sound pressure levels from the manufacturers.  Forget these, except MAYBE when comparing across one companies units.  Without a distance, the weighting and the environment they are measured in (2 pi, 4pi space etc) these numbers are useless.  In Europe they have standards by which machine SPL must be measured to meet certain regulations, the cyclones we have aren't regulated in that way so the manufacturer's numbers should not be given any weight.  Honestly fan curves from the manufacturers need to be taken with the same grain of salt, save comparing across a single manufacturers range.

The short cyclones will work, they just have higher filter loading which means more maintenance and more frequent filter replacement and if they are going to be permanently piped in and you plan to pipe across the ceiling given that they are short you are either going to increase static pressure or have a long gradual rise to the main run both of which are not ideal. 

DC is about the most contentious subject on wwing forums, it ain't sexy, it ain't cheap (unless you run your shop open and move a lot of air through it) but it poses the most danger of anything in the shop.  Many people work in a wood shop 40 hours a week for their entire working life and never have a serious flesh and bone injury but every person that works any significant time in a woodshop will have their respiratory system negatively impacted to some degree whether they realize it or not.  My opinion is build the best DC system you can afford and if budget/space/power allow then get one of the tall cyclones, preferably 5hp, optimize the capture at the machine and run ambient HEPA filters during and after you leave the shop.  As an alternative one could wear a respirator all the time, for me if I had to do this I would probably shift to my other hobbies since I hate them and will only wear them when spraying. 


Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 791
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2016, 12:04 AM »

The short cyclones will work, they just have higher filter loading which means more maintenance and more frequent filter replacement ....

Totally agree. For the same air flow the final filter is what contols the quality of extraction, unless there is a leak.

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1165
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2016, 09:44 AM »
@RobBob so how do you like the Laguna and what do you have it hooked up to.

Filters can be safely cleaned with an air compressor set to no more than ~60 lbs of pressure.  Blow it from the outside in.  I have an acquaintance who does this with his Clear Vue and a friend that does it to his Oneida.

Also, my shop is shared with two cars in my garage.  Routine daily use opening and closing the garage doors a few times a day will help to keep the air refreshed.

@blaszcsj
Just finished wiring the garage for 220v this week.  The Laguna is still in it's box although I did have the electrician put a 220v 30amp twist lock plug on it.
Here is what it will be hooked up to:
1. jointer/planer combo
2. bandsaw
3. jobsite table saw

Other possibilities:
1. drill press
2. miter saw (was planning to use my Crapsman shop vac plus Deluxe Dust Deputy)

I have a Festool CT26 for my Festool and other brands of handheld power tools.

All this is a work in process.  I am sure that machines and tools will be moved around and reorganized many times.  Everything must be on wheels.  I've got a long way to go.

First project since moving from the basement to the garage will be a mobile sheet goods storage rack.

« Last Edit: November 05, 2016, 10:20 PM by RobBob »

Offline RussellS

  • Posts: 183
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2016, 12:12 AM »
I asked one of the lung specialist if wood dust cause lung disease. He answered "No" with no hesitation or reservation.

True.  But wood dust is not a reactive element.  It is inert.  There are no chemicals inside of wood that react with human cells and cause mutations.  Cancer.  Lung disease.  It would be similar to someone who operates a grinder or sharpening wheel.  The stone particles that break off do not cause any change in the humans who get them into their lungs.  But enough of the inert particles would likely kill someone.  Breathe enough wood dust and you will choke and gasp for breath.  Enough of the particles in your lungs and you will die.  Your question to the lung specialist is trying to make wood dust seem like cigarette smoke.  Cigarette smoke reacts with human cells and changes them.  Causes cancer.  Wood dust is not the same as cigarette smoke.

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1728
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2016, 12:47 AM »
Whether or not dust causes lung disease isn't really relevant to the original question, is it? The original post asked about experience with the Laguna dust collectors, not whether you believe a dust collector saves you from lung disease. How about getting back to the original question? Plus, a guy who spends paragraphs discussing the dangers of wood dust and how to take fine dust out of the air in your shop (Bill Pentz) allegedly feels that wood dust doesn't contribute to lung disease? That's a little hard to believe but, you know, everyone can do what they feel is best for them.
Randy

Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 791
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2016, 01:31 AM »
The disease is called silicosis and is caused by exposure to crystalline silica - the type that is present to various degrees in wood dust.

Offline blaszcsj

  • Posts: 293
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2016, 09:16 AM »
@RobBob hurry up  ;) I'm interested to see how this thing performs from a real user so I can get one.

Cheers!
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Offline ndrew

  • Posts: 3
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2016, 01:40 AM »
This is a bit of a late reply and those interested in the Laguna P|Flux and C|Flux may have already seen this: an in-depth review of the Laguna C|FLUX and P|FLUX. It's at least got some objectivity about performance, as it compares the amount of MDF dust caught by the filters in both the new models and the previous generation machine. Spoiler: whatever they've done with the new design seems to have improved efficiency markedly.

CT36E, CTL-SYS, TS55 REBQ-Plus, RO150 FEQ-Plus, OF1400 EBQ-Plus

Offline Dan-

  • Posts: 30
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2016, 08:47 PM »
Going to pull the trigger on the p-flux 3 the next time Laguna has a 10% off sale (which they do currently). Already have the gift card, but it is restricted.

The main thing that turned me off a Clearvue is the noise level. I cannot have a jet engine in my garage.

I won't spend the money (nor give up the space) for a Felder RL 150/200. Sure it'd be nice, but the footprint is tough, not to mention the additional cost.

If Toolmetrix' specs are legit, then this looks like a good buy.

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1165
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2016, 08:59 PM »
Yes, I live in a Townhouse and so noise levels are important to me too.  FWIW, the HEPA version has egg crate insulation in the cabinet.

My 92 y.o. mother has been in the hospital for the last couple of weeks, so I have not been able to put mine together yet.  She is home now; however, there are lots of things to put in place for her before I will have some free time. 

The 220v wiring is complete.  So everything is ready to go once I get 'er put together.

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1165
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2016, 02:32 PM »
Finally got some time to begin unpacking my P-Flux 3hp dust collector.  There are a surprising number of small parts.  I have seen some scratches on a few parts, but nothing down to bare metal.

(Edited to add: What I originally thought were scratches, rubbed right off with a damp rag.)

Saw this new video posted today from Laguna, just in time to help me put it together.  The fact that Laguna takes the time to produce these detailed videos about their products says a lot about the company.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 07:56 PM by RobBob »

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 916
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2016, 08:04 PM »
@RobBob Are you putting this on a 30A circuit?  Other 3hp motors are generally fine on a 20A circuit, but I was just looking at the specs and it looks like the amp draw is higher on this motor.  This throws a wrench into my shop plan...or I drop to 2hp.
-Raj

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1165
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2016, 08:14 PM »
@RobBob Are you putting this on a 30A circuit?  Other 3hp motors are generally fine on a 20A circuit, but I was just looking at the specs and it looks like the amp draw is higher on this motor.  This throws a wrench into my shop plan...or I drop to 2hp.

Yes, I had my electrician wire my garage with two 30amp outlets.  I was not sure which location would work best so I wanted options just in case.  He put a twist lock plug on the cord for the dust collector.  All of the other 240v circuits have 20amp breakers and use standard 240v/20amp plugs.  The Hammer J/P and the Laguna 2 1/2 hp bandsaw will use those.

Should have it finished tomorrow.  So far it has been very smooth putting it together.  (Knock on wood.)

Can you just change out the breaker to a 30amp since it won't actually run that high?  I believe the 30amps is just for start up.  Check with an electrician. 
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 01:43 PM by RobBob »

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 916
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #45 on: December 31, 2016, 08:37 PM »
Thanks!  I haven't had the subpanel or circuits run yet.  I was planning on scattering multiple outlets across the basement all on 2 20A circuits, this way I could move things around now or in the future.  I'll chew on it.  It's possible 2hp is fine.  Meanwhile I'm waiting for your review.  That video looks promising. Everything seems reasonably well built.
-Raj

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1165
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #46 on: January 31, 2017, 01:30 PM »
Here's an update on the Laguna PFlux 3.  It went together without incident.  The video helped a lot.

I have been using it for a couple of weeks now and so far, I am really impressed.  Most of it's use has been with my Hammer A3 31.  Separation of fine particles from chips seems to be excellent.  It is very quiet, as advertised.  The remote works great.  It uses a radio frequency so you do not have to point the transmitter at the dust collector.  I have it on the same lanyard as the RTS Engineering Maxsys remote for the CT26.   [big grin]

My plan is to run a 6" Nordfab main line down one wall in the garage and use it as a manifold system (using an 8" to 6" reducer on the DC inlet).  Each machine will have its own drop with a flex hose connected from the drop to the machine. Drill press, band saw, table saw, and jointer/planer will be lined up along the same wall.  When needed, I will back the car out and pull the machine or machines I need to use out from the wall.

I also have the other side of the two car garage to use when needed for assembly or whatever.  Not as good as having a dedicated shop, but I think it will work out fine. 
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 01:38 PM by RobBob »

Online Gerald_D

  • Posts: 261
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #47 on: January 31, 2017, 04:31 PM »
Thanks @RobBob - appreciate the followup on your assembly and first impressions.  I have decided to get this same unit and told my dealer to get one ordered.  I found out that my dealer can also supply the NordFab product which I will eventually use once I decide how to layout my machines.  The beauty of the PFlux is I can use it as a mobile unit until I get this figured out. 

Once I get mine, I'll take some pics of my initial layout to share.

Thanks again to all of you for your input- much appreciated!

Regards,
Gerald
Gerald
I have Festools- Big and Small and a few other tools

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 916
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #48 on: January 31, 2017, 04:51 PM »
Thank you, glad it's working out well for you!
-Raj

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1165
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #49 on: January 31, 2017, 05:03 PM »
Sounds good, Gerald.

Yes, being able to roll it around really helps.  Fortunately, even the PFlux 3hp version is short enough to fit under the garage door tracks.

I ordered a 5 foot, 6" diameter Nordfab duct with 8" to 6" reducer, flex hose coupler, and some clamps.  Maybe I should use an 8" pipe for the first 5 feet?  From what I have read, it is good to have a 5 foot straight run directly into the dust collector's inlet before making any turns or elbows.  I believe this helps it gain velocity.  For now, a 10 foot flex hose will be connected to the 5 foot pipe.  I am going use it this way for awhile before buying anymore duct.  The Nordfab is not cheap and I want to make sure I am satisfied with my planed setup before buying more.

Oneida shipping is very expensive.  I ended up ordering this limited amount of Nordfab from Grizzly.  Very easy to order online and the shipping charge was reasonable.

Note: the video says that the machine comes with an 8" to 6" reducer.  It does not.  I called Laguna to make sure that it was not left out by mistake.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 11:02 PM by RobBob »

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1728
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #50 on: January 31, 2017, 08:20 PM »
@RobBob      Don't know where you plan to put the gates. . . Are you going to put them close to the main? From my experience and from information from Oneida when I put my ductwork in, putting the gates near the main increases the amount of air flow from the open gate to the collector since I assume you will generally be using only 1 machine at a time. Might already be your plan. The less ductwork the air must flow through the more air will flow.
Randy

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1165
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #51 on: January 31, 2017, 08:51 PM »
@RobBob      Don't know where you plan to put the gates. . . Are you going to put them close to the main? From my experience and from information from Oneida when I put my ductwork in, putting the gates near the main increases the amount of air flow from the open gate to the collector since I assume you will generally be using only 1 machine at a time. Might already be your plan. The less ductwork the air must flow through the more air will flow.

Thanks for the tip.  Makes sense.  I am open to any and all ideas.  Initially, I was planing to use a 7" or 8" main, but after talking to a Nordfab rep, he suggested that air volume and air velocity are both important.  Air velocity helps keep the system from getting plugged up.  Reducing the main down from 8" to 6" was his idea.

Anyone have any opinions about reducing down from 8" to 7" or 6"?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 10:14 PM by RobBob »

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1728
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #52 on: February 01, 2017, 01:23 AM »
The best would be if Nordfab provided a design based on your particular shop. When I ran my ducting Oneida designed the system based on my needs, such as drops, length of the run, etc. Mine is reduced from 7" to 6" right at the collector; then stays at 6" until there is a need to reduce it farther, like at a drop to a tool.

Randy

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1165
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #53 on: February 01, 2017, 08:50 AM »
The best would be if Nordfab provided a design based on your particular shop. When I ran my ducting Oneida designed the system based on my needs, such as drops, length of the run, etc. Mine is reduced from 7" to 6" right at the collector; then stays at 6" until there is a need to reduce it farther, like at a drop to a tool.

Hmm, interesting.  That reinforces what the Nordfab rep recommended to me.  He said to reduce from 8" to 6" at the collector, use 6" drops, and reduce again at the tool, if needed.  Guess I should stick with what the experts suggest.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 07:46 PM by RobBob »

Offline CarlK10

  • Posts: 3
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2017, 02:30 PM »
@RobBob I am glad you like your Pflux, I like the fact that it has good separation for a short cyclone.  I too am interested in it.  I was wondering if you could provide some measurements for me.  I am interested in :
- diameter (or circumference) of the cyclone body
-height of the body
-height of the cone
-diameter (or circumference) of the bottom of the cone.

I would like to do a little mock up.
Thanks in andvance

Carl

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1165
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2017, 07:01 PM »
@RobBob I am glad you like your Pflux, I like the fact that it has good separation for a short cyclone.  I too am interested in it.  I was wondering if you could provide some measurements for me.  I am interested in :
- diameter (or circumference) of the cyclone body
-height of the body
-height of the cone
-diameter (or circumference) of the bottom of the cone.

I would like to do a little mock up.
Thanks in andvance

Carl
@CarlK10,

Define "height of the body" for me, please.

I should be able to get the rest of those for you tomorrow.


Offline CarlK10

  • Posts: 3
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2017, 07:54 PM »
@RobBob,

Sorry for the vague description. I was referring to only the cylindrical part as the 'body' (between the blower and the cone section). Also to clarify the diameter of the bottom of the cone or the diameter of the discharge opening.

Thanks again.

Carl

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1165
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #57 on: February 21, 2017, 12:28 PM »
@CarlK10

Here you go...

- Circumference of the cyclone body = ~60 inches  This measurement is close, but accuracy was impacted by the tape measure not being long enough.
- Height of the body = 12.5 inches
- Height of the cone = 18 inches
- Circumference of the bottom of the cone. = 30 inches

If you are trying to plug the measurements into some kind of "golden ratio" calculation, don't bother.  There is one little part that Laguna includes that none of the FOG experts on short cyclones seem to be aware of.  As other owners have demonstrated online, I have tested the PFlux 3hp with and without this one part.  It makes all the difference in the world in the short cyclone's ability to separate fine dust from larger particles.  Maybe it is not as good as a longer cyclone with the ideal ratio of length to diameter, but it is certainly good enough if you use it together with a dust mask/respirator and air cleaner.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 04:32 PM by RobBob »

Offline CarlK10

  • Posts: 3
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #58 on: February 21, 2017, 01:39 PM »
TY.  Appreciate the information.

Offline estley

  • Posts: 96
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #59 on: March 07, 2017, 12:18 PM »
I'm looking at the 1.5, or maybe the 2hp version of this. For the foreseeable future I wouldn't duct them, just move hoses back and forth. Anyone have an idea of how much difference 1.5 vs 2 makes in collector-hose-tool situation?