Author Topic: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors  (Read 11016 times)

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Offline Gerald_D

  • Posts: 210
New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« on: November 03, 2016, 05:09 PM »
I realize these are new and maybe not a lot of them in shops yet, but just curious if anyone has one in service, or has seen one at their dealer, or considered purchasing over another vendor (Oneida, ClearView, etc).  They look nice and have nice features, but most importantly- how do they perform?  Any help appreciated.

My potential use would be for 3 machines- table saw, 18" bandsaw, and 15" planer.

Thanks All!

Regards,
Gerald
Gerald
I have Festools- Big and Small and a few other tools

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Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 983
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2016, 05:18 PM »
I bought the new P|Flux:3 HEPA 3hp version while they were on sale for 10% off at Woodcraft, but have not put it together yet.  Just had the garage wired with 220 and 110 outlets this week. 

I chose it because it was HEPA, mobile, and not too tall for my garage.  The HEPA versions have sound insulation (egg crate foam, I think) inside the enclosure.

Some people claim that dust collectors with the shorter cyclones do not separate as well as the longer cyclones.  However, Laguna claims to have tweaked their design to compensate for the shorter cyclone.

That's about all I know so far.
Laguna P|Flux:3
« Last Edit: November 03, 2016, 05:51 PM by RobBob »

Offline Max Fracas

  • Posts: 73
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2016, 05:32 PM »
@RobBob

Please hurry up and get it into operation!  I'm also interested in one of these and would value your thoughts. 

Offline Xoncention

  • Posts: 111
  • Build a bridge and get over it...
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2016, 05:48 PM »
@RobBob

Please hurry up and get it into operation!  I'm also interested in one of these and would value your thoughts. 
The sensors monitoring the status of the filter and the drum is a nice idea.

Offline Gerald_D

  • Posts: 210
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2016, 05:49 PM »
Thanks @RobBob - that's actually the same model I'm looking at.  If you get it together, I would love to hear your feedback.

I talked to my local dealer- he said that he would bring one into stock for me and, if I didn't like it, he would just put it on the showroom floor.  I might have to take him up on that.

Gerald
Gerald
I have Festools- Big and Small and a few other tools

Offline Huxleywood

  • Posts: 106
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2016, 05:58 PM »
The salient issue with these and ones like them is that the short cyclone will have lower seperation percentages than the (correctly designed) taller cyclones.  IF you have the room for a taller cyclone they are a better option.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 622
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2016, 06:37 PM »
Laguna altered the laws of physics ? [eek]

All they altered was their sales pitch I suspect.    [crying]

Offline Xoncention

  • Posts: 111
  • Build a bridge and get over it...
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2016, 06:57 PM »
Laguna altered the laws of physics ? [eek]

The length of the cyclone can be shortened if the diameter is increased.  You can also angle the intake to alter the characteristics of the vortex.  You can also incorporate spiral separators.  Stokes law caters for these elements.

Online RKA

  • Posts: 765
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2016, 07:36 PM »
Add me to the list interested in feedback on these.  I would like to limit to 3hp and have limited vertical space in my basement which rules out the clearvue.
-Raj

Offline kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 698
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2016, 07:53 PM »
I talked to Bill Pentz 2 years ago about the short design, big fail with his testing. They all collect chips its what they miss and the resulting maintenance that are the concern. BS marketing is alive and well.

John

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 983
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2016, 08:40 PM »
I would take Bill Pentz and his website with a grain of salt if I were you.

Here is what Laguna says about their new dust collectors.  Time will tell how good or bad they really are.  Early reports are very positive.

"Airflow has been improved by the exclusive use of a single horizontal chute that allows air to freely flow into the canister.

The shape of the cyclone torso along with the inlet & exit vane placement have all been changed to create superior separation.

The build quality is second to none, high-end components throughout, world class fit & finish that you have come to expect from Laguna."


« Last Edit: November 03, 2016, 09:14 PM by RobBob »

Offline Huxleywood

  • Posts: 106
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2016, 09:55 PM »
Laguna altered the laws of physics ? [eek]

The length of the cyclone can be shortened if the diameter is increased.  You can also angle the intake to alter the characteristics of the vortex.  You can also incorporate spiral separators.  Stokes law caters for these elements.

I think it is the opposite, The optimum efficiency of a seperation (solid/gas) cyclone is found when X is the diameter of the intake barrel and the height of both the intake barrel and height of the cone are both 2X and the air outlet is 1/2X in diameter.  So every inch increase of barrel diameter require a 4 inch increase in overall height to remain the optimum shape. 

Offline Xoncention

  • Posts: 111
  • Build a bridge and get over it...
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2016, 10:16 PM »
Laguna altered the laws of physics ? [eek]

The length of the cyclone can be shortened if the diameter is increased.  You can also angle the intake to alter the characteristics of the vortex.  You can also incorporate spiral separators.  Stokes law caters for these elements.

I think it is the opposite, The optimum efficiency of a seperation (solid/gas) cyclone is found when X is the diameter of the intake barrel and the height of both the intake barrel and height of the cone are both 2X and the air outlet is 1/2X in diameter.  So every inch increase of barrel diameter require a 4 inch increase in overall height to remain the optimum shape. 
I thought the object was to slow the speed of the air down so that the heavier particles lost their inertia and gravity took over?  We are not trying to create thrust from the air flow.  The balance between centripetal and centrifugal is the point where gravity brings about separation.  There are dust collection buckets out there that operate without a cyclone, they are just prone to blockage as the out feed side has a gauze filter that gets blocked quickly.  You can change the shape of a venturi to give the optimal air flow and particle separation.  You can also use gate valves to vary the air flow and change the separation point in the system, depending on the mass of the particles being processed.

Offline Huxleywood

  • Posts: 106
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2016, 10:46 PM »
Laguna altered the laws of physics ? [eek]

The length of the cyclone can be shortened if the diameter is increased.  You can also angle the intake to alter the characteristics of the vortex.  You can also incorporate spiral separators.  Stokes law caters for these elements.

I think it is the opposite, The optimum efficiency of a seperation (solid/gas) cyclone is found when X is the diameter of the intake barrel and the height of both the intake barrel and height of the cone are both 2X and the air outlet is 1/2X in diameter.  So every inch increase of barrel diameter require a 4 inch increase in overall height to remain the optimum shape. 
I thought the object was to slow the speed of the air down so that the heavier particles lost their inertia and gravity took over?  We are not trying to create thrust from the air flow.  The balance between centripetal and centrifugal is the point where gravity brings about separation.  There are dust collection buckets out there that operate without a cyclone, they are just prone to blockage as the out feed side has a gauze filter that gets blocked quickly.  You can change the shape of a venturi to give the optimal air flow and particle separation.  You can also use gate valves to vary the air flow and change the separation point in the system, depending on the mass of the particles being processed.

I'll leave the fluid dynamics explanation to those that know more than show to spell it.  My experience is based on the textbook version of dust seperation design, that you see carried out in industrial and smaller commercial scale cyclones like Torit.  If your interpretation of the raltionship between height and diameter were correct you would see at least some short fat cyclones in industry.  Dust seperation cyclones, despite being realtively new to hobby/small shop woodworker is a very mature industry with over 100 years of refinement so there is likely little room for eficiency increase with the R&D budget of companies like Laguna, save some world changing light bulb moment that would be worth a fortune in the industrial world.  I am not saying Laguna has not increased their seperation efficiency, they indeed may have, but it is hard to imagine they have a short cyclone with seperation as high as the well designed taller cyclones.  Now, it should be noted that all the decent cyclones we have for our shops are fighting for the last few percent of seperation which depending on the machines you are collecting from may only make a small difference in filter packing if it is mainly chips or a huge difference in material past the cyclone if one does a lot of sanding. 

This is simply and area where all other things equal taller is almost always better.  However, many people do not have the vertical space to house a taller cyclone or they need it to be easily mobile, in those cases the squat cyclones makes sense. 

While not a complete explanation and deviod of engineering speak one has to remember the most dangerous particles do not fall out of suspension even in zero flow air so even if you drop the effective rate of air travel to near zero they will stay in suspension, of course this is part of the reason that when particle size gets small enough seperation is near zero even with the best designed cyclones.

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 983
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2016, 10:54 PM »
Lol.  I am sure the amount of separation will be just fine for my hobby workshop.

Offline Huxleywood

  • Posts: 106
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2016, 11:23 PM »
Lol.  I am sure the amount of separation will be just fine for my hobby workshop.

I know the seperation stuff sounds like some Shakespeare Macbeth sound and fury but it is just as important in a small shop as in industry.  Lower seperation means higher filter loading, higher filter loading means more frequent filter replacement to keep good air volume.  While cleaning apparatus will help with this the smaller fines nest deep in the filter and are not stripped with the mechnical cleaners.  In the end we all must live with budget and space requirements, if one of both preclude a better cyclone so be it, but if space and budget allow, one will be better off in the long run, on several accounts (including likely cost), if they choose one of the better hobby level cyclones like Oneida or Clearvue. 

Offline kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 698
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2016, 06:13 AM »
I would take Bill Pentz and his website with a grain of salt if I were you.

Here is what Laguna says about their new dust collectors.  Time will tell how good or bad they really are.  Early reports are very positive.

"Airflow has been improved by the exclusive use of a single horizontal chute that allows air to freely flow into the canister.

The shape of the cyclone torso along with the inlet & exit vane placement have all been changed to create superior separation.

The build quality is second to none, high-end components throughout, world class fit & finish that you have come to expect from Laguna."


Your their perfect customer, you believe their marketing and not proper design and mechanics of airflow to get optimum separation. But you are right it will work in your hobby workshop just not in any real world applications. Your also right about Bill and his team, all the thousands of hours testing in real world situations isn't very practical or important. Marketing BS really does baffle brains.

John
« Last Edit: November 04, 2016, 07:36 AM by kcufstoidi »

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 201
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2016, 06:51 AM »
[...]one has to remember the most dangerous particles do not fall out of suspension even in zero flow air so even if you drop the effective rate of air travel to near zero they will stay in suspension, of course this is part of the reason that when particle size gets small enough seperation is near zero even with the best designed cyclones.
Combine this with filters that let the ultra fine particles pass and you're ready to have a health problem...

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 3393
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2016, 07:40 AM »
...
I thought the object was to slow the speed of the air down so that the heavier particles lost their inertia and gravity took over? 
...

Or it works like a centrifuge in a blood lab(??)
The blood never seperates from gravity, but in a centrifuge it seems to hpgo to plasma and solids pretty quick.

As long as the Laguna is not prone to a student attack, then one should be ok.
I ain't no mathematician but i have some negative and positive screwdrivers
I ain't no pilot but i have some planes.
I ain't no sucker but i have a vacuum.
And I has me some saws, and some sandpapers.

Online RKA

  • Posts: 765
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2016, 07:43 AM »
Aside from the cyclone design, laguna's 3hp hepa cyclone is advertised as being within 10% if the airflow of the 5hp clearvue (both have impellers almost equal in size), however the hepa filter surface area is 1/3 of the clearvue.  To me (the layman) that suggests either the laguna doesn't move as much air as they claim or the filter will require much more frequent replacement (or both).
-Raj

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 983
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2016, 10:02 AM »

I would take Bill Pentz and his website with a grain of salt if I were you.

Here is what Laguna says about their new dust collectors.  Time will tell how good or bad they really are.  Early reports are very positive.

"Airflow has been improved by the exclusive use of a single horizontal chute that allows air to freely flow into the canister.

The shape of the cyclone torso along with the inlet & exit vane placement have all been changed to create superior separation.

The build quality is second to none, high-end components throughout, world class fit & finish that you have come to expect from Laguna."


Your their perfect customer, you believe their marketing and not proper design and mechanics of airflow to get optimum separation. But you are right it will work in your hobby workshop just not in any real world applications. Your also right about Bill and his team, all the thousands of hours testing in real world situations isn't very practical or important. Marketing BS really does baffle brains.

John

@kcufstoidi And you are Clear Vue's perfect customer.  You drank the "Bill and his team" Kool-Aid.  Any dust collector not designed by Bill Pentz will cause heath problems and kill you.

Sorry my post ruffled your feathers. 

Did you read what I wrote above in reply #1?  I have not said that I believe anything.  Have not even put it together yet.

The Laguna P-flux is the only dust collector that had all the features I was looking for.  Simple as that.

My only point in quoting Laguna was to show that they have tried to tweak their design to compensate for the short cyclone.  They have not claimed that it is the equal to an optimized longer cyclone or anything else.  Their only claim is that it is an improvement from their old model.

Many people have been perfectly happy and healthy for years with the $200 Harbor Freight dust collectors, not to mention all the other dust collectors, including single stage units with non-HEPA filters that have been in use for years. 

« Last Edit: November 04, 2016, 12:09 PM by RobBob »

Offline Xoncention

  • Posts: 111
  • Build a bridge and get over it...
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2016, 10:22 AM »
...
I thought the object was to slow the speed of the air down so that the heavier particles lost their inertia and gravity took over? 
...

Or it works like a centrifuge in a blood lab(??)
The blood never seperates from gravity, but in a centrifuge it seems to hpgo to plasma and solids pretty quick.

As long as the Laguna is not prone to a student attack, then one should be ok.
::) I guess the size of the screens in the centrifuge governs the separation that occurs in the plasma.  You are forcing a liquid made up of different constitutional elements with the goal of separation and reintegration after the filtering process has occurred.  Gravity has a limited affect in a closed compressed loop.  Unless there is an ionization there is no effective reactive to permit separation.

Offline kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 698
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2016, 01:18 PM »

I would take Bill Pentz and his website with a grain of salt if I were you.

Here is what Laguna says about their new dust collectors.  Time will tell how good or bad they really are.  Early reports are very positive.

"Airflow has been improved by the exclusive use of a single horizontal chute that allows air to freely flow into the canister.

The shape of the cyclone torso along with the inlet & exit vane placement have all been changed to create superior separation.

The build quality is second to none, high-end components throughout, world class fit & finish that you have come to expect from Laguna."


Your their perfect customer, you believe their marketing and not proper design and mechanics of airflow to get optimum separation. But you are right it will work in your hobby workshop just not in any real world applications. Your also right about Bill and his team, all the thousands of hours testing in real world situations isn't very practical or important. Marketing BS really does baffle brains.

John

@kcufstoidi And you are Clear Vue's perfect customer.  You drank the "Bill and his team" Kool-Aid.  Any dust collector not designed by Bill Pentz will cause heath problems and kill you.

Sorry my post ruffled your feathers. 

Did you read what I wrote above in reply #1?  I have not said that I believe anything.  Have not even put it together yet.

The Laguna P-flux is the only dust collector that had all the features I was looking for.  Simple as that.

My only point in quoting Laguna was to show that they have tried to tweak their design to compensate for the short cyclone.  They have not claimed that it is the equal to an optimized longer cyclone or anything else.  Their only claim is that it is an improvement from their old model.

Many people have been perfectly happy and healthy for years with the $200 Harbor Freight dust collectors, not to mention all the other dust collectors, including single stage units with non-HEPA filters that have been in use for years.

Yeah people still smoke heavily and drink to excess also say it doesn't cause health problems. That also why there are industry solutions to dust control and regulations that have to be followed, why because there is a problem. So what actual part of the research do you want me to take with a grain of salt? I have read a lot of Bill's research and discussed it with him personally, also have some friends that have health issues related to wood dust so yeh I take it seriously unlike others. If you have taken any time to do the research you would find that there are many DC's that Bill tested and worked great not just his own. If thats drinking the Pentz coolaid so be it. That doesn't take away the fact that the short cone seperators are a mediocre design no matter what sunshine they blow up your butt. Just for the record I did own a Clearvue CV1800 years ago, but now run a Felder RL160 which isn't based on any cyclone design. Enjoy your woodworking.

John

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1576
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2016, 01:50 PM »
I'm not sure most of this helps the guy who originally posted the question. I know that I don't understand completely the relationships between cyclone height, CFM, static pressure, etc. I do know that, by experience, if I have the space, I would always choose a standard cyclone for the best possible efficiency of collection.

Will the Lagun work for a non-production shop. Probably. The Oneida Dust Gorilla will most likely work also in the same scenario. Given that the machines from which dust will be collected are heavy duty dust/chip producers, I'd go for a more standard, stationary type cyclone. If space and electrical connections are issues, then the roll-around is a good option as long as only 1 machine is connected and being collected from at a time.

I would compare the stated HEPA filtration between the various collectors and manufacturers. I might be mistaken, but Oneida's HEPA filters filter a step above the standard HEPA specs. This might not seem like much, but it's that fine dust which is the real problem for health and the more of it that can be collected at the source, the better. Compare all the possibilities and some will drop out immediately as too expensive, won't fit in the shop, or aren't meant for exactly how you want to use it.

As I said, if you're only collecting from one machine at a time, like most of us who are part-time woodworkers, then the range of acceptable HEPA cyclone collectors increases significantly these days. I know some people appear to have had bad experiences with Oneida but I never have and I have found their equipment to be the best. I bought one of their first cyclones with an internal filter a couple of years after they started in business and it was amazing for its time. I recently upgraded to a V1500 and it is also amazing with much better filtration than my old one.

I do like the Laguna concept and the portability if that is what you are looking for.
Randy

Offline Gerald_D

  • Posts: 210
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2016, 04:53 PM »
Thanks @grbmds - Yeah, some of the replies are a little more in depth than I was looking for but appreciate the help.

I'm not necessarily looking for portability- in fact, if I got the Laguna I would possibly attempt to use without the casters.  I have a dedicated spot and circuit for the dust collector in my new shop and planned on running duct work to the three machines.  Height is not a concern either as my ceiling is 10+ feet (almost 11').  My dealer carries both Oneida and Laguna- I had been looking at a V3000 and he mentioned that he saw the Laguna units at IWF in Atlanta and thought that might be a good option since they are free freight and Oneida is not.  Both are HEPA and both somewhat quiet at around 76dB.  I like the 'handle' lift mechanism on the Laguna for the chip barrel but I will not sacrifice convenience for air quality.  Laguna makes some strong claims in this area and I was just curious if anyone had evidence of that themselves.  I'm naturally skeptical and that's why I don't buy much online or what a company claims.

I'd welcome any experience folks have had with the V3000 Oneida as well.

Regards,
Gerald
Gerald
I have Festools- Big and Small and a few other tools

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 983
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2016, 05:43 PM »
I just had a bad experience with Oneida involving a Deluxe Dust Deputy.  The gray hose that came in the kit does not fit the cyclone.  Their hose does not fit their cyclone without adapters.

It took me a week with six calls and ten emails to finally get them to send me the adapters needed to use their hose on their cyclone.  They even made me send pictures and take measurements.


Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1576
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2016, 06:07 PM »
Thanks @grbmds - Yeah, some of the replies are a little more in depth than I was looking for but appreciate the help.

I'm not necessarily looking for portability- in fact, if I got the Laguna I would possibly attempt to use without the casters.  I have a dedicated spot and circuit for the dust collector in my new shop and planned on running duct work to the three machines.  Height is not a concern either as my ceiling is 10+ feet (almost 11').  My dealer carries both Oneida and Laguna- I had been looking at a V3000 and he mentioned that he saw the Laguna units at IWF in Atlanta and thought that might be a good option since they are free freight and Oneida is not.  Both are HEPA and both somewhat quiet at around 76dB.  I like the 'handle' lift mechanism on the Laguna for the chip barrel but I will not sacrifice convenience for air quality.  Laguna makes some strong claims in this area and I was just curious if anyone had evidence of that themselves.  I'm naturally skeptical and that's why I don't buy much online or what a company claims.

I'd welcome any experience folks have had with the V3000 Oneida as well.

Regards,
Gerald

Despite the last comment concerning the Dust Deputy, Oneida has produced very solid cyclone dust collectors for close to 25 years (maybe longer than that). I think the Dust Deputy was a venture into a product line that they shouldn't have ventured into. Not sure why they did it; profit motive I suppose. I never thought that product was worth much. Their regular cyclones, on the other hand, are top notch. If you have the room and can wire (or are wired for 220V), the 3000 would be something you would never regret buying. I would tell you that their V series cyclones do give new meaning to the words "some assembly required". While the instructions are very good, the task is a little time-consuming and, while not really complicated, generated a little uncertainty for me while doing it. I only have the 1500, but it is extremely quiet, generating only an air movement noise from the flywheel rather than any motor noise. It is very effective and keeps the air clean. I use it for my jobsite saw, router table, 8" jointer, 13" planer, and my bandsaw. In all cases, the collection improved over the first one I bought 20 years ago. I didn't think that was possible.
Randy

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1576
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2016, 06:13 PM »
I just had a bad experience with Oneida involving a Deluxe Dust Deputy.  The gray hose that came in the kit does not fit the cyclone.  Their hose does not fit their cyclone without adapters.

It took me a week with six calls and ten emails to finally get them to send me the adapters needed to use their hose on their cyclone.  They even made me send pictures and take measurements.
@RobBob Just so you don't t think I ignored your comments. I think I have seen the most negative feedback about Oneida on the Dust Deputy products, especially the Deluxe. I actually bought one of those for my Fein vac. While I didn't have problems with it, it was just a pain as an add-on; in my way and, since I now don't use my Fein for too much except cleanup, I just stopped using the Deluxe. It was an innovative concept but seemed to cause them a lot of problems. They should support all their products equally and don't understand the lack of response. They've always been very responsive to e with both my dust collectors, even over the 20 years I owned the first one.
Randy

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 983
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2016, 06:57 PM »
Believe me, I looked at them all.  Clear Vue, Oneida, Penn State, Jet, Bailey and Laguna.  Even had a spreadsheet to make it easier to compare.  You know what?  I still think the Laguna is by far the best of the lot given the parameters I have to work with. 

I am not much of a believer in magazine tests, (Advertisers pay their salary) but...
Clear Vue was tested in Wood Magazine March 2014 page 74.
It pretty much failed their tests.  After they tested it, they stated it returned 20 times more dust than the Oneida tested the year before.

Read the whole thread from Sawmill Creek.  I think they fairly covered all the bases.  Note the mention of the Woodwhisperers review of the Clue Vue.  He preferred the Oneida.
Sawmill Creek - Clear Vue thread
« Last Edit: November 04, 2016, 08:29 PM by RobBob »

Offline clark_fork

  • Posts: 213
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2016, 07:51 PM »
Believe me, I looked at them all.  Clear Vue, Oneida, Penn State, Jet, Bailey and Laguna.  Even had a spreadsheet to make it easier to compare.  You know what?  I still think the Laguna is by far the best of the lot given the parameters I have to work with. 

I am not much of a believer in magazine tests, (Advertisers pay their salary) but...
Clear Vue was tested in Wood Magazine March 2014 page 74.
It pretty much failed their tests.  After they tested it, they stated it returned 20 times more dust than the Oneida tested the year before.

Read the whole thread.  I think they fairly covered all the bases.  Note the mention of the Woodwhisperers review of the Clue Vue.  He preferred the Oneida.
Sawmill Creek - Clear Vue thread

Regarding price points,  why not consider those under $2,000, specifically  Jet ?:

http://www.woodcraft.com/product/421814/jet-cyclone-dust-collector-2hp.aspx

Are there any specific issues with these imports? They claim pleated bags down to 1mm etc.

On a practical side, why do they all claim to require two person assembly?
Clark Fork

"straight, smooth and square" Mr. Russell, first day high school shop class-1954

" What's the good of it?" My Sainted Grandmother

"You can't be too rich, too thin or have too many clamps." After my introduction to pocket joinery and now the MFT work process

"Don't make something unless it is both made necessary and useful;
but if it is both necessary and useful,
don't hesitate to make it beautiful." -- Shaker dictum

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 983
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2016, 08:28 PM »
The reason they recommend two people is because the motors are very heavy and you have to lift them up to a fairly high point.

Paid about $2,000 for my Laguna 3hp HEPA, the newest model, too.  I hit an introductory 10% off sale.

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Offline blaszcsj

  • Posts: 254
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2016, 10:59 PM »
@RobBob so how do you like the Laguna and what do you have it hooked up to.
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Offline Huxleywood

  • Posts: 106
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2016, 11:18 PM »
Now the OP has established he has the height and lack of portability needs that allow most any of the hobby oriented cyclones it now comes to to a budget vs features vs efficacy vs fan curve vs ease of installation balance, the key here being this equation will be different for everyone. 

Quality 3rd party tests of all the available cyclones are near non-existent, the Wood magazine test of the CV is almost certainly based on a leaky system, it is too much of an outlier especially when it uses a known quality filter. 

I personally have owned a Oneida DGP, CV Max and a Chicago Blower/Torit all with 15 MERV or better filters and my particle meter tells me they were all very effective, the only machines/tools I wasn't/am not happy with were/are my 50" drum sander and miter saw but these were issues with capture more a result on the tool end. 

I get the short cyclones like the Laguna are a compelling solution, it is a one stop shop DC in a box.  All the bells and whistles are built in and you don't have to moonlight as an electrician to get them up and running with a remote and bin sensors.  Assuming no leaks (the best way to test is a Dylos) ALL the various flavors of DC will return air to the work space that is directly correlated with the quality of the filters.  These filters will last longer and allow acceptable flow longer with more surface area. 

There is nothing magic about DC it is simply impeller size/shape, hp to match the impeller, efficacy of seperation and post seperation filtration efficacy along with proper ducting and optimized capture at the machine.  The biggest place one can screw up picking a cyclone is poor filters, someone mentioned the Jet, the filters on the Jet are not HEPA. 

I know the Laguna is a neat package deal, some would call it stylish and if you follow Torben's lead even sexy but I subscribe to the idea that a cyclone is like a creepy uncle, best not seen or heard, build the cylone in, put your bin alarm on the outside and life in the shop is better, if you need sexy paint the cyclone "box" in grey and green and put framed pictures of a Domino in slinky dress on the walls. 

Someone mentioned sound pressure levels from the manufacturers.  Forget these, except MAYBE when comparing across one companies units.  Without a distance, the weighting and the environment they are measured in (2 pi, 4pi space etc) these numbers are useless.  In Europe they have standards by which machine SPL must be measured to meet certain regulations, the cyclones we have aren't regulated in that way so the manufacturer's numbers should not be given any weight.  Honestly fan curves from the manufacturers need to be taken with the same grain of salt, save comparing across a single manufacturers range.

The short cyclones will work, they just have higher filter loading which means more maintenance and more frequent filter replacement and if they are going to be permanently piped in and you plan to pipe across the ceiling given that they are short you are either going to increase static pressure or have a long gradual rise to the main run both of which are not ideal. 

DC is about the most contentious subject on wwing forums, it ain't sexy, it ain't cheap (unless you run your shop open and move a lot of air through it) but it poses the most danger of anything in the shop.  Many people work in a wood shop 40 hours a week for their entire working life and never have a serious flesh and bone injury but every person that works any significant time in a woodshop will have their respiratory system negatively impacted to some degree whether they realize it or not.  My opinion is build the best DC system you can afford and if budget/space/power allow then get one of the tall cyclones, preferably 5hp, optimize the capture at the machine and run ambient HEPA filters during and after you leave the shop.  As an alternative one could wear a respirator all the time, for me if I had to do this I would probably shift to my other hobbies since I hate them and will only wear them when spraying. 


Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 668
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2016, 12:04 AM »

The short cyclones will work, they just have higher filter loading which means more maintenance and more frequent filter replacement ....

Totally agree. For the same air flow the final filter is what contols the quality of extraction, unless there is a leak.

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 983
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2016, 09:44 AM »
@RobBob so how do you like the Laguna and what do you have it hooked up to.

Filters can be safely cleaned with an air compressor set to no more than ~60 lbs of pressure.  Blow it from the outside in.  I have an acquaintance who does this with his Clear Vue and a friend that does it to his Oneida.

Also, my shop is shared with two cars in my garage.  Routine daily use opening and closing the garage doors a few times a day will help to keep the air refreshed.

@blaszcsj
Just finished wiring the garage for 220v this week.  The Laguna is still in it's box although I did have the electrician put a 220v 30amp twist lock plug on it.
Here is what it will be hooked up to:
1. jointer/planer combo
2. bandsaw
3. jobsite table saw

Other possibilities:
1. drill press
2. miter saw (was planning to use my Crapsman shop vac plus Deluxe Dust Deputy)

I have a Festool CT26 for my Festool and other brands of handheld power tools.

All this is a work in process.  I am sure that machines and tools will be moved around and reorganized many times.  Everything must be on wheels.  I've got a long way to go.

First project since moving from the basement to the garage will be a mobile sheet goods storage rack.

« Last Edit: November 05, 2016, 10:20 PM by RobBob »

Offline RussellS

  • Posts: 159
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2016, 12:12 AM »
I asked one of the lung specialist if wood dust cause lung disease. He answered "No" with no hesitation or reservation.

True.  But wood dust is not a reactive element.  It is inert.  There are no chemicals inside of wood that react with human cells and cause mutations.  Cancer.  Lung disease.  It would be similar to someone who operates a grinder or sharpening wheel.  The stone particles that break off do not cause any change in the humans who get them into their lungs.  But enough of the inert particles would likely kill someone.  Breathe enough wood dust and you will choke and gasp for breath.  Enough of the particles in your lungs and you will die.  Your question to the lung specialist is trying to make wood dust seem like cigarette smoke.  Cigarette smoke reacts with human cells and changes them.  Causes cancer.  Wood dust is not the same as cigarette smoke.

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1576
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2016, 12:47 AM »
Whether or not dust causes lung disease isn't really relevant to the original question, is it? The original post asked about experience with the Laguna dust collectors, not whether you believe a dust collector saves you from lung disease. How about getting back to the original question? Plus, a guy who spends paragraphs discussing the dangers of wood dust and how to take fine dust out of the air in your shop (Bill Pentz) allegedly feels that wood dust doesn't contribute to lung disease? That's a little hard to believe but, you know, everyone can do what they feel is best for them.
Randy

Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 668
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2016, 01:31 AM »
The disease is called silicosis and is caused by exposure to crystalline silica - the type that is present to various degrees in wood dust.

Offline blaszcsj

  • Posts: 254
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2016, 09:16 AM »
@RobBob hurry up  ;) I'm interested to see how this thing performs from a real user so I can get one.

Cheers!
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Offline ndrew

  • Posts: 3
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2016, 01:40 AM »
This is a bit of a late reply and those interested in the Laguna P|Flux and C|Flux may have already seen this: an in-depth review of the Laguna C|FLUX and P|FLUX. It's at least got some objectivity about performance, as it compares the amount of MDF dust caught by the filters in both the new models and the previous generation machine. Spoiler: whatever they've done with the new design seems to have improved efficiency markedly.

CT36E, CTL-SYS, TS55 REBQ-Plus, RO150 FEQ-Plus, OF1400 EBQ-Plus

Offline Dan-

  • Posts: 25
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2016, 08:47 PM »
Going to pull the trigger on the p-flux 3 the next time Laguna has a 10% off sale (which they do currently). Already have the gift card, but it is restricted.

The main thing that turned me off a Clearvue is the noise level. I cannot have a jet engine in my garage.

I won't spend the money (nor give up the space) for a Felder RL 150/200. Sure it'd be nice, but the footprint is tough, not to mention the additional cost.

If Toolmetrix' specs are legit, then this looks like a good buy.

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 983
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2016, 08:59 PM »
Yes, I live in a Townhouse and so noise levels are important to me too.  FWIW, the HEPA version has egg crate insulation in the cabinet.

My 92 y.o. mother has been in the hospital for the last couple of weeks, so I have not been able to put mine together yet.  She is home now; however, there are lots of things to put in place for her before I will have some free time. 

The 220v wiring is complete.  So everything is ready to go once I get 'er put together.

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 983
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2016, 02:32 PM »
Finally got some time to begin unpacking my P-Flux 3hp dust collector.  There are a surprising number of small parts.  I have seen some scratches on a few parts, but nothing down to bare metal.

(Edited to add: What I originally thought were scratches, rubbed right off with a damp rag.)

Saw this new video posted today from Laguna, just in time to help me put it together.  The fact that Laguna takes the time to produce these detailed videos about their products says a lot about the company.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 07:56 PM by RobBob »

Online RKA

  • Posts: 765
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2016, 08:04 PM »
@RobBob Are you putting this on a 30A circuit?  Other 3hp motors are generally fine on a 20A circuit, but I was just looking at the specs and it looks like the amp draw is higher on this motor.  This throws a wrench into my shop plan...or I drop to 2hp.
-Raj

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 983
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2016, 08:14 PM »
@RobBob Are you putting this on a 30A circuit?  Other 3hp motors are generally fine on a 20A circuit, but I was just looking at the specs and it looks like the amp draw is higher on this motor.  This throws a wrench into my shop plan...or I drop to 2hp.

Yes, I had my electrician wire my garage with two 30amp outlets.  I was not sure which location would work best so I wanted options just in case.  He put a twist lock plug on the cord for the dust collector.  All of the other 240v circuits have 20amp breakers and use standard 240v/20amp plugs.  The Hammer J/P and the Laguna 2 1/2 hp bandsaw will use those.

Should have it finished tomorrow.  So far it has been very smooth putting it together.  (Knock on wood.)

Can you just change out the breaker to a 30amp since it won't actually run that high?  I believe the 30amps is just for start up.  Check with an electrician. 
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 01:43 PM by RobBob »

Online RKA

  • Posts: 765
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #45 on: December 31, 2016, 08:37 PM »
Thanks!  I haven't had the subpanel or circuits run yet.  I was planning on scattering multiple outlets across the basement all on 2 20A circuits, this way I could move things around now or in the future.  I'll chew on it.  It's possible 2hp is fine.  Meanwhile I'm waiting for your review.  That video looks promising. Everything seems reasonably well built.
-Raj

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 983
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #46 on: January 31, 2017, 01:30 PM »
Here's an update on the Laguna PFlux 3.  It went together without incident.  The video helped a lot.

I have been using it for a couple of weeks now and so far, I am really impressed.  Most of it's use has been with my Hammer A3 31.  Separation of fine particles from chips seems to be excellent.  It is very quiet, as advertised.  The remote works great.  It uses a radio frequency so you do not have to point the transmitter at the dust collector.  I have it on the same lanyard as the RTS Engineering Maxsys remote for the CT26.   [big grin]

My plan is to run a 6" Nordfab main line down one wall in the garage and use it as a manifold system (using an 8" to 6" reducer on the DC inlet).  Each machine will have its own drop with a flex hose connected from the drop to the machine. Drill press, band saw, table saw, and jointer/planer will be lined up along the same wall.  When needed, I will back the car out and pull the machine or machines I need to use out from the wall.

I also have the other side of the two car garage to use when needed for assembly or whatever.  Not as good as having a dedicated shop, but I think it will work out fine. 
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 01:38 PM by RobBob »

Offline Gerald_D

  • Posts: 210
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #47 on: January 31, 2017, 04:31 PM »
Thanks @RobBob - appreciate the followup on your assembly and first impressions.  I have decided to get this same unit and told my dealer to get one ordered.  I found out that my dealer can also supply the NordFab product which I will eventually use once I decide how to layout my machines.  The beauty of the PFlux is I can use it as a mobile unit until I get this figured out. 

Once I get mine, I'll take some pics of my initial layout to share.

Thanks again to all of you for your input- much appreciated!

Regards,
Gerald
Gerald
I have Festools- Big and Small and a few other tools

Online RKA

  • Posts: 765
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #48 on: January 31, 2017, 04:51 PM »
Thank you, glad it's working out well for you!
-Raj

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 983
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #49 on: January 31, 2017, 05:03 PM »
Sounds good, Gerald.

Yes, being able to roll it around really helps.  Fortunately, even the PFlux 3hp version is short enough to fit under the garage door tracks.

I ordered a 5 foot, 6" diameter Nordfab duct with 8" to 6" reducer, flex hose coupler, and some clamps.  Maybe I should use an 8" pipe for the first 5 feet?  From what I have read, it is good to have a 5 foot straight run directly into the dust collector's inlet before making any turns or elbows.  I believe this helps it gain velocity.  For now, a 10 foot flex hose will be connected to the 5 foot pipe.  I am going use it this way for awhile before buying anymore duct.  The Nordfab is not cheap and I want to make sure I am satisfied with my planed setup before buying more.

Oneida shipping is very expensive.  I ended up ordering this limited amount of Nordfab from Grizzly.  Very easy to order online and the shipping charge was reasonable.

Note: the video says that the machine comes with an 8" to 6" reducer.  It does not.  I called Laguna to make sure that it was not left out by mistake.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 11:02 PM by RobBob »

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1576
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #50 on: January 31, 2017, 08:20 PM »
@RobBob      Don't know where you plan to put the gates. . . Are you going to put them close to the main? From my experience and from information from Oneida when I put my ductwork in, putting the gates near the main increases the amount of air flow from the open gate to the collector since I assume you will generally be using only 1 machine at a time. Might already be your plan. The less ductwork the air must flow through the more air will flow.
Randy

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 983
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #51 on: January 31, 2017, 08:51 PM »
@RobBob      Don't know where you plan to put the gates. . . Are you going to put them close to the main? From my experience and from information from Oneida when I put my ductwork in, putting the gates near the main increases the amount of air flow from the open gate to the collector since I assume you will generally be using only 1 machine at a time. Might already be your plan. The less ductwork the air must flow through the more air will flow.

Thanks for the tip.  Makes sense.  I am open to any and all ideas.  Initially, I was planing to use a 7" or 8" main, but after talking to a Nordfab rep, he suggested that air volume and air velocity are both important.  Air velocity helps keep the system from getting plugged up.  Reducing the main down from 8" to 6" was his idea.

Anyone have any opinions about reducing down from 8" to 7" or 6"?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2017, 10:14 PM by RobBob »

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1576
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #52 on: February 01, 2017, 01:23 AM »
The best would be if Nordfab provided a design based on your particular shop. When I ran my ducting Oneida designed the system based on my needs, such as drops, length of the run, etc. Mine is reduced from 7" to 6" right at the collector; then stays at 6" until there is a need to reduce it farther, like at a drop to a tool.

Randy

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 983
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #53 on: February 01, 2017, 08:50 AM »
The best would be if Nordfab provided a design based on your particular shop. When I ran my ducting Oneida designed the system based on my needs, such as drops, length of the run, etc. Mine is reduced from 7" to 6" right at the collector; then stays at 6" until there is a need to reduce it farther, like at a drop to a tool.

Hmm, interesting.  That reinforces what the Nordfab rep recommended to me.  He said to reduce from 8" to 6" at the collector, use 6" drops, and reduce again at the tool, if needed.  Guess I should stick with what the experts suggest.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2017, 07:46 PM by RobBob »

Offline CarlK10

  • Posts: 3
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2017, 02:30 PM »
@RobBob I am glad you like your Pflux, I like the fact that it has good separation for a short cyclone.  I too am interested in it.  I was wondering if you could provide some measurements for me.  I am interested in :
- diameter (or circumference) of the cyclone body
-height of the body
-height of the cone
-diameter (or circumference) of the bottom of the cone.

I would like to do a little mock up.
Thanks in andvance

Carl

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 983
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2017, 07:01 PM »
@RobBob I am glad you like your Pflux, I like the fact that it has good separation for a short cyclone.  I too am interested in it.  I was wondering if you could provide some measurements for me.  I am interested in :
- diameter (or circumference) of the cyclone body
-height of the body
-height of the cone
-diameter (or circumference) of the bottom of the cone.

I would like to do a little mock up.
Thanks in andvance

Carl
@CarlK10,

Define "height of the body" for me, please.

I should be able to get the rest of those for you tomorrow.


Offline CarlK10

  • Posts: 3
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2017, 07:54 PM »
@RobBob,

Sorry for the vague description. I was referring to only the cylindrical part as the 'body' (between the blower and the cone section). Also to clarify the diameter of the bottom of the cone or the diameter of the discharge opening.

Thanks again.

Carl

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 983
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #57 on: February 21, 2017, 12:28 PM »
@CarlK10

Here you go...

- Circumference of the cyclone body = ~60 inches  This measurement is close, but accuracy was impacted by the tape measure not being long enough.
- Height of the body = 12.5 inches
- Height of the cone = 18 inches
- Circumference of the bottom of the cone. = 30 inches

If you are trying to plug the measurements into some kind of "golden ratio" calculation, don't bother.  There is one little part that Laguna includes that none of the FOG experts on short cyclones seem to be aware of.  As other owners have demonstrated online, I have tested the PFlux 3hp with and without this one part.  It makes all the difference in the world in the short cyclone's ability to separate fine dust from larger particles.  Maybe it is not as good as a longer cyclone with the ideal ratio of length to diameter, but it is certainly good enough if you use it together with a dust mask/respirator and air cleaner.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 04:32 PM by RobBob »

Offline CarlK10

  • Posts: 3
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #58 on: February 21, 2017, 01:39 PM »
TY.  Appreciate the information.

Offline estley

  • Posts: 66
Re: New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors
« Reply #59 on: March 07, 2017, 12:18 PM »
I'm looking at the 1.5, or maybe the 2hp version of this. For the foreseeable future I wouldn't duct them, just move hoses back and forth. Anyone have an idea of how much difference 1.5 vs 2 makes in collector-hose-tool situation?