Author Topic: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine  (Read 15361 times)

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Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2016, 09:41 AM »
@teocaf

Christian was the executive I asked at the Connect Event.  I suspect that our posts might have crossed in typing.

Peter

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Offline Cochese

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2016, 10:02 AM »
I dismissed this at first, but I'm really interested. But not at the way it is being funded. I'm not someone who has that sort of cash to blow at once, and I don't want it sitting on a card for a couple months.

Guess I will have to pass.

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2016, 12:05 PM »
I wrote Shaper to ask about the spindle a few weeks ago;

"Regarding the spindle, we are sourcing a high-quality router, but have not announced the vendor. "

Offline teocaf

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2016, 12:08 PM »
@teocaf

Christian was the executive I asked at the Connect Event.  I suspect that our posts might have crossed in typing.

Peter

@Peter Halle
Yeah, it said someone else had posted on the thread but I did not pause to read your entry before hitting Post.  If you could not get any more details out of them about this Shaper thing, then I certainly would not have been able to do it.
Btw, it was good to meet you at Connect on our way out.  My kids really like the goodies they got, especially the mini systainers and hats.  Sorry I could not meet all the Fogsters at the mexican restaurant that evening.  My kids were such good troopers getting up before 6am so we could get on the road that I decided to stop at Millenium Park in Chicago on the way back so they could have their own fun for a few hours before getting back to Wisconsin.

Offline jimbo51

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2016, 02:06 PM »
This tool would be great for cutting custom inserts for Systainers out of various types of foam. It would even be capable of cutting an insert for a Maxi-tainer which would otherwise require a rather large CNC machine. With the proper software, you could lay tools on top of the foam, take a few pictures for 3D modeling and have the router cut out the foam for a nice tight fit for any tool.

If you have 50 custom insets to make and figured that they were worth $50 each, then this would pay for itself just on that project!!!

Offline Gregor

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2016, 05:10 PM »
I would buy such a device when it is available ready to ship, performs as advertised in unbiased reviews, has a warranty policy and repair guarantees that isn't a joke (I'm from Germany, 1 year warranty is a joke) - but I won't preorder potential vaporware a year in advance (way after I can revert a CC payment for fraud).

About running costs:

Quote
Can I print my own ShaperTape?
No. The dimensional accuracy of the fiducial marker is critical to Origin's performance. ShaperTape is printed using specialized production equipment designed to ensure extremely high dimensional accuracy. This level of accuracy cannot be replicated on a standard printer.
Which is blantantly false, given how printers operate these days.

Quote
How long is a roll of ShaperTape?
Each roll is 150ft in length. This is enough to cover approximately one and a half standard 4' x 8' sheets of plywood.
Boils down to: they bigger your workpiece, the more expensive it gets to work on it.

Quote
How much will ShaperTape cost?
Our intention is to provide ShaperTape at near-cost. Based on current production costs, we anticipate being able to offer ShaperTape directly to consumers for between $10 and $15 per 150-foot roll.
Given the prices I have access to their anticipation (using the lower mark) isn't anywhere near-cost but has at least 300% markup inside it (and that is when you make low volume orders, through a middleman, like <100 25mm x 50m rolls, one color matte printing black on matte white film, adhesive of your choice - high volume production will be way cheaper).

The idea is nice, the way they want shear you with consumeables isn't, as are the payment terms. IMHO.

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2016, 05:23 PM »
Quote
How much will ShaperTape cost?
Our intention is to provide ShaperTape at near-cost. Based on current production costs, we anticipate being able to offer ShaperTape directly to consumers for between $10 and $15 per 150-foot roll.
Given the prices I have access to their anticipation (using the lower mark) isn't anywhere near-cost but has at least 300% markup inside it (and that is when you make low volume orders, through a middleman, like <100 25mm x 50m rolls, one color matte printing black on matte white film, adhesive of your choice - high volume production will be way cheaper).

The idea is nice, the way they want shear you with consumeables isn't, as are the payment terms. IMHO.

I too would be concerned about the cost of the tape.  I don't know if it is marked up 300% or not.  I believe it is a high fidelity print of a 150 foot long non-repeating pattern.  I'd guess that isn't going to be cheap to produce.   
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Svar

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2016, 05:37 PM »
Given the prices I have access to their anticipation (using the lower mark) isn't anywhere near-cost but has at least 300% markup inside it (and that is when you make low volume orders, through a middleman, like <100 25mm x 50m rolls, one color matte printing black on matte white film, adhesive of your choice - high volume production will be way cheaper).

I'm looking at regular adhesive tapes on Amazon and can hardly see any under $10/50m. Regular duct tape retails at this price. Manufacturers must be all getting rich raking money at 300% margin.
You don't even know what tape is required. It probably shouldn't stretch even 0.05%.
Besides, you claim it can by printed on a regular printer, could be a business opportunity for you.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 05:47 PM by Svar »

Offline Cheese

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2016, 05:47 PM »
I believe it is a high fidelity print of a 150 foot long non-repeating pattern.  I'd guess that isn't going to be cheap to produce.   

That's interesting...if 150' will be needed for 1 1/2 sheets of ply, then that would also be the largest surface to work at one time, or the non-repeating pattern would have to have to be run for longer than 150' increments.

Offline Svar

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2016, 05:56 PM »
That's interesting...if 150' will be needed for 1 1/2 sheets of ply, then that would also be the largest surface to work at one time, or the non-repeating pattern would have to have to be run for longer than 150' increments.

They've got 18 dots (positions) per black rectangle. That's 2^18 = 262144 unique combinations. Good for some 10 miles of tape.

Offline Cheese

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2016, 05:59 PM »
They've got 18 dots (positions) per black rectangle. That's 2^18 = 262144 unique combinations. Good for some 10 miles of tape.

 Now that makes more sense...thanks [smile]

Offline Svar

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2016, 06:02 PM »
I too would be concerned about the cost of the tape. 

I wonder if you could tape a flat panel and clamp it in the field of view of the machine, then reuse it on another project. I imagine you don't need to have it right where you are cutting as long as the machine sees enough of the pattern at all times.

Offline Svar

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2016, 06:14 PM »
I believe it is a high fidelity print of a 150 foot long non-repeating pattern.  I'd guess that isn't going to be cheap to produce.

Good point. Not an expert, but I think regular machines will only do short repetitive pattern. Non repetitive would be much slower process.

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2016, 06:15 PM »
I too would be concerned about the cost of the tape. 

I wonder if you could tape a flat panel and clamp it in the field of view of the machine, then reuse it on another project. I imagine you don't need to have it right where you are cutting as long as the machine sees enough of the pattern at all times.

It would probably have to be in/on the same plane too.

Is it true that the dot pattern is/must be non-repeating? I haven't read that before.

If the same pattern (from a panel with pre-applied tape as above) somehow conflicts with a pre-existing project stored in memory maybe that panel could be divided into strips that could be rearranged.

Offline Svar

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #44 on: September 21, 2016, 06:18 PM »
It would probably have to be in/on the same plane too.

I think so. Program in an offset?

Is it true that the dot pattern is/must be non-repeating? I haven't read that before.

No clue, but they are all different in the videos I've seen.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 06:20 PM by Svar »

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #45 on: September 21, 2016, 06:22 PM »
An off-set is a very good thought. Could be a big benefit if it works.

Offline neilc

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2016, 06:31 PM »
It reads the proximity of the tape and dot pattern to other tape as well. 


So I'm not sure it has to be a completely different set of dot patterns.  It's taking a photo of the landscape and then using the dots to re-orient. 


But I think those dots are in relation to the other patterns in the stitched-together photo.  I only suggest this because it is reading x and y and distance. 

Offline tjbnwi

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2016, 07:35 PM »
@teocaf

Christian was the executive I asked at the Connect Event.  I suspect that our posts might have crossed in typing.

Peter

@Peter Halle
Yeah, it said someone else had posted on the thread but I did not pause to read your entry before hitting Post.  If you could not get any more details out of them about this Shaper thing, then I certainly would not have been able to do it.
Btw, it was good to meet you at Connect on our way out.  My kids really like the goodies they got, especially the mini systainers and hats.  Sorry I could not meet all the Fogsters at the mexican restaurant that evening.  My kids were such good troopers getting up before 6am so we could get on the road that I decided to stop at Millenium Park in Chicago on the way back so they could have their own fun for a few hours before getting back to Wisconsin.

Very nice park to stop at.

Tom

Offline antss

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2016, 10:43 PM »
Cool innovation , but I cannot see how this tool will allow one to make a profit in a commercial setting if it needs to be operated by a human that is paid an hourly wage.

Think there's a lot of call for curved bar inlay work and that it is best done on site ?  ::) Or much money in making templates?  And $50 foam systainer inserts will prob bankrupt the person making them unless they're retired and only need to break even on hard costs.

I admire the dreamers though.

Offline Cheese

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2016, 11:11 PM »
Cool innovation , but I cannot see how this tool will allow one to make a profit in a commercial setting if it needs to be operated by a human that is paid an hourly wage

I think the target audience for this item is the DIY crowd. In a commercial setting, the purchase of a CNC would be the obvious choice to supplant the need for this item. This item needs a tether and that would be anathema to how the industrialized workforce functions.

Offline Svar

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #50 on: September 28, 2016, 11:39 PM »
Cool innovation , but I cannot see how this tool will allow one to make a profit in a commercial setting if it needs to be operated by a human that is paid an hourly wage

I think the target audience for this item is the DIY crowd. In a commercial setting, the purchase of a CNC would be the obvious choice to supplant the need for this item. This item needs a tether and that would be anathema to how the industrialized workforce functions.
Who knows what will come out of this, but professionals drop $500 on MFS template that can only do rectangles and consider it a good investment. Origin can do at least that and 10 times more. I think it can fit in a one man shop operation well.
Comparing the Origin to industrial CNC is like comparing a jigsaw to a sawmill. Both have their pace in professional environment.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 12:46 AM by Svar »

Offline clark_fork

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2016, 12:00 AM »
I think the CNC inventors have it backwards. What they need is what came to be known as a "Killer App." in the early days of personal computing. When long forgotten programs called VisiCalc and WordStar came along, the value of personal computers finally became evident.  These programs sold a lot of computers. These program evolved into Lotus and WordPerfect and finally Microsoft came along and put them out of their misery with Word and Excel.

When drawing software comes out that Mr. and Mrs. America can easily use, the software will sell CNC machines.

As far a commercial use, think how easy the Origin can make sink or appliance inserts or cut curves in counter tops or make electrical outlet holes in drywall. Think about intricate floor inlays. Commercial use will drive the CNC development.  It has to because the initial costs will remain high for some time. Then as the price goes down the arts and crafts farmer's market birdhouse gang will take over. But not much will happen until the software leads the way....

« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 12:06 AM by clark_fork »
Clark Fork

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Offline Cheese

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2016, 12:38 AM »
I think the CNC inventors have it backwards. What they need is what came to be known as a "Killer App." in the early days of personal computing.
When drawing software comes out that Mr. and Mrs. America can easily use, the software will sell CNC machines.

Bingo...when you no longer need to design the part in a software program and can just dial it in on an ad hoc basis, the job becomes a lot easier, and the hardware will be perceived to be a lot more affordable because the software will seem to be more approachable.

Offline antss

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2016, 09:35 PM »
I think the target audience for this item is the DIY crowd. In a commercial setting, the purchase of a CNC would be the obvious choice to supplant the need for this item. This item needs a tether and that would be anathema to how the industrialized workforce functions.
[/quote]

Think there's a big hobbyist crowd looking to drop $2000 + $10-$20 a project for the tape just to putts around ?  Additionally - who's going to get the sale ?  Seems like there are several routers being shopped - is there to be a tie in with someone like Festool  or will sales be direct ???  How many can be produced and delivered in a quarter ?  How big is the call center that'll field the "how do I" questions ?

My opinion is this is not quite ready for prime time.  It's not vaporware, but I just don't see it becoming a tool that a significant number add to their arsenal.

Svar - a lot less pros than you think bought a MFS !  So many in fact that Festool has decided to stop carrying it in the U.S.   One doesn't drop a big seller from it's offering list.  A jigsaw is used by many carpenters to do  various tasks that earn them money and help productivity.  Trimming to length, scribe work, coping crown and base, sink and outlet box cutouts,  cutting metal, scroll work, framing notches, window cutouts, roof sheathing ellipses, cabinetry work, ect.......

All I've seen this thing do is a nifty map of the USA and someone though it might be good for inlay work on site.  Intricate inlay work is best done is a controlled shop environment, and I doubt those with that skill are gonna run out and buy an Origin that's unproven with that.  The time and materials invested in with most inlay commissions means you can take a chance with a new unproven tool.  And lets not forget you or another paid worker are going to have to code that inlay design before you start making sawdust.  CAD techs don't come cheap either.

So what on a jobsite will I or any of you going to ACTUALLY use this thing on to produce revenue ???  Or even in a one man shop ?  Sure , it'd be cool to use to whip out some templates, but not $2000 cool  + the programming time.   Any of you that pre-ordered wanna clue me in on what you're going to make with this thing ?

Offline Cheese

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2016, 11:58 PM »
I think the target audience for this item is the DIY crowd. In a commercial setting, the purchase of a CNC would be the obvious choice to supplant the need for this item. This item needs a tether and that would be anathema to how the industrialized workforce functions.

1. Think there's a big hobbyist crowd looking to drop $2000 + $10-$20 a project for the tape just to putts around ? 
2. Additionally - who's going to get the sale ? 
3. Seems like there are several routers being shopped - is there to be a tie in with someone like Festool  or will sales be direct ???
4. How many can be produced and delivered in a quarter ? 
5. How big is the call center that'll field the "how do I" questions ?

1. As a matter of fact I do, this forum is a perfect example. Festool's own numbers stated that in the early years they estimated that 60%-70% of their products purchased in the US, were purchased by hobbyists/DIY'ers and not professionals. Look at the majority of the posters on this forum, most are not professionals but yet they own multiple Festool track saws, multiple Festool routers, multiple Festool sanders...well you get the idea. Interestingly enough, being a long time photography enthusiast, I read a column today (no it was not Ken Rockwell [huh] [huh] [huh]) ... that stated that enthusiast/amateur photographers would be willing to spend $10K on a medium format camera, (no lenses), and they presupposed that was the entry level for many other enthusiasts that pursued other interests. [eek] So, $2K is not an impediment for the serious enthusiast and $10 in tape is nothing compared to the $$$ we've spent on Festool sanding discs.

2. The sale of what...you lost me on this one.

3. At this juncture, it seems like Festool probably has the inside track as far as supplying router bodies to Shaper. Why was Shaper at Festool Connect, and why does Shaper promote dust collection? I think it's a given...they're just hammering out the pricing as we speak.

4. Who knows...who cares, that's a Shaper issue, something they need to manage to make their share holders happy.

5. Again, another Shaper issue and we're all on the sidelines making our calls when the reality is, this game won't be played until September 2017...a year from now. And in that time frame, the rules may change.

Offline antss

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #55 on: September 30, 2016, 06:55 PM »
1. Fair enough, and I agree that Festools foothold here was with that group. Early on most pros were just too reluctant (or just unable) to spend that kind $$$ on these tools. I was really responding to the comment that pros would scoop this thing up. They are more sensitive to acquisition costs and consumables - especially if a tool isn't being used regularly.

2.&3. Kinda go together.  Is Festool going to be the motor supplier ?  What if theyre not?  What if the final product is like a router lift and fits multiple motors and has a couple of dstribution partners?

4. Again, I think it's a bigger picture than that.  Say Festool is the dist. winner, they are going to need a sizable number of units to fill their worldwide distribution channel.  Something a startup cottage industry doesn't necessarily worry about at the outset.  A healthy / manageable order backlog is often an advantage for a small business. Order backlog for a multinational isn't as attractive. 

If your hobbyist take is correct , that crowd isn't always patient. 

5. Of course they'll change. I was only pointing out that something this new and complex looking to create a new market is going to produce the need for a lot of handholding.  Those hobbyist are going to be miffed if they can't operate their mapmaker and can't talk to customer service in a timely manner and with satisfactory results.

I think this is geared more to the well heeled hobbyist than the professional. I also don't think the sell is as easy as an expensive router, sander, drill, or saw that people can easily wrap their head around using for multiple tasks around their home or shop. So, I again ask..........what are y'all going to make with one of these ??? [scratch chin]

« Last Edit: October 01, 2016, 07:38 AM by antss »

Offline Svar

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #56 on: September 30, 2016, 07:44 PM »
How big is the call center that'll field the "how do I" questions ?

What does this have to do with anything? I recently dealt with a startup that makes linear motion systems for photography, just few guys. Their support, manuals, online instructions, videos, apps, feedback were some of the best I've ever seen. You don't need a call center to provide a good service.

Online SRSemenza

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #57 on: September 30, 2016, 08:07 PM »
As far as pro use goes........ If I had a Shaper four weeks ago I could have done the CNC for part of a job I was doing for a customer of mine and made the $300 for the CNC myself instead of sending it to a CNC shop. It doesn't take too many of those to pay for a Shaper.

Seth

Offline neilc

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #58 on: September 30, 2016, 10:19 PM »
For those interested, Shaper has a pretty good selection of videos on their youtube channel - www.youtube.com/shapertools and they are adding more every week.  They have plans for a community similar to FOG that will be part of their website for sharing designs, tips, etc.  I think it could be a really rich experience.  Imagine downloading a plan for an MFT into the tool and cutting it out.   Opendesk.com is one of their partners and I could see lots of examples available for download for cabinets, knock down furniture, jigs, etc.  The tool is programmable and you'll see downloadable templates that you can add or change over time based on my conversations with the team at Connect.

Sure you could learn and import G-code, or you can draw with the tool, download to the tool from various sources or draw your work using tools like Fusion 360 from Autodesk which is excellent.

One of their videos shows it cutting finger joints.  Enter the width of the piece, the number of fingers and  the depth and it automatically takes it from there to produce evenly spaced finger joints. Yes you guide it, and you make a template to hold the pieces vertically.  But I can imagine that template being a download that you can cut with the shaper.  Self-creating tools and jigs are around the corner!

Beyond finger joints, no reason it can't do the same with dovetails.  That's one use case.  By comparison, a Leigh D4R dovetail jig in their 24" version is $650.   Then you need a router.  Based on what I can see, the Shaper should do what that jig does and a more.  And it's not limited to 24" in width.  You're approaching 50-75% of the price of the Shaper with a high end dovetail jig.  I think it will give you more creativity and flexibility for dovetails and a lot more. 

Want to do unique inlays in an installed floor, tabletop or counter?  Tough to do with a  conventional CNC machine.  You can do it with templates, but you have to cut the templates with something.  I'd say Shaper could be a game changer for applications like that.  The template is in the tool.  Butterfly inlays in a live edge split piece?  Easy to do in 5 minutes.   Take the tool to the work, just like Festool.

Yes, I ordered one after using it, spending a lot of time at Connect with their team, and watching their videos.  I've debated a table-based unit, but did not want to commit the shop space.  I'm a serious hobby user, but I think it will have applications for professionals.   

The downside of the Shaper for production shops is that it requires you to guide it.   But I think there are plenty of applications for small runs or special applications where it will prove to be very capable.


« Last Edit: September 30, 2016, 10:54 PM by neilc »

Offline Svar

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #59 on: September 30, 2016, 10:37 PM »
Aside from what was mentioned I can see this tool in a small designer/artist studio used for prototyping and making quick design changes on the go instead of running to a pro shop every time.