Author Topic: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine  (Read 15363 times)

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Offline Mkholdings

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Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« on: September 11, 2016, 10:20 AM »


I know this product is not made by Festool but I wish it was.  At the Festool connect event. This company was invited to show us this awesome product
My friend Toolaholic and myself made this video. This is just a small project but this machine can make a lot. 
The video is in English with Spanish subtitles. I hope this video helps somebody

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline #Tee

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2016, 10:24 AM »
cool tool, its a manual cnc.
When youre feeling depressed just treat yourself to a systainer even if its a mini systainer its ok.

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Offline GhostFist

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2016, 07:33 AM »
 The tech is interesting but I'm not really seeing a lot of practical application and I assume it's not going to be cheap. Well certainly cheaper than a full sized cbc but only a tiny fraction of the capability.

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2016, 07:46 AM »
The tech is interesting but I'm not really seeing a lot of practical application and I assume it's not going to be cheap. Well certainly cheaper than a full sized cbc but only a tiny fraction of the capability.

I too find this concept interesting, I'll hold off my judgements about practicality until we see where it goes.  I believe pricing is $1500 for pre-order, around at $2000 full retail.
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline clark_fork

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2016, 12:05 PM »
This is the beginning of the CNC product revolution. There are companies all over the world working to bring the CNC concept into the shop and onto construction sites. In less than two years, you will be able to buy one for less than $1,000 and pricing will be headed downward from there.

I would sit tight and wait for tech to catch up. In some garage, there is someone working on a build your own kit that may work or a design that may be adopted by some company.

It doesn't make sense that the answer lies in the overhead mechanical contraptions that are the feature of most CNC machines. The answer seems to be a router/computer combination that is computer guided. This new Origin seems to be the direction of promise.  It does make you think about the future and likelihood of a CNC type of wood lathe where you dial in the chair leg or bowl dimensions and the CNC rides along producing the chair leg or bowl. 

I had a CNC MFT top made and obtained it from a local furniture manufacturer. If I had another project I would hire it out. I now have the Parfitt MFT kit and it will serve my needs at a fraction of the cost.

I intend to stand by the side of the road for now.



Clark Fork

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Offline bkharman

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2016, 01:43 PM »
Not only seeing this thing, but actually trying with my own hands, I will say it is very slick. Shaper having 3 working prototypes at Connect was boss!  It does have a lot of potential and room to grow and I think at the 1500 price point it has a lot of promise.

I am still on the fence about ordering one but for myself (and a few others in attendance) thought it would be great to cut some MFT templates for use with patten bits for larger production runs.

One of the main developers that was there had indicated a few software updates around the time of release next year. We shall see but this type of "CNC" does have a lot of potential.

My .02...

Cheers. Bryan.


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People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2016, 02:06 PM »
After seeing it in person, I can see how cool it could be, especially for prototyping, creating designs from drawings, etc. Really neat tool.
Weekly how-to videos about woodworking, metalworking, and more. http://youtube.com/craftedmagazine

Offline Svar

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2016, 02:28 PM »
he tech is interesting but I'm not really seeing a lot of practical application and I assume it's not going to be cheap. Well certainly cheaper than a full sized cbc but only a tiny fraction of the capability.
?
Definitely not a tiny fraction of the capability.
Sign making, engraving, or any 2D shapes from sheets, wood or metal (aluminum) without size restrictions. Inlay into existing piece of furniture or floor (try that with traditional CNC), on-site work.
I've seen this used to cut aluminum mounting plates for some machinery. Quite impressive.
I doubt its accuracy matches traditional CNC, but good enough for most carpentry type jobs.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2016, 01:29 AM by Svar »

Offline bkharman

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2016, 02:31 PM »
The tech is interesting but I'm not really seeing a lot of practical application ...
?
Sign making or any 2D shapes from sheets, wood or metal (aluminum) without size restrictions. Even on-site work.
I've seen this used to cut aluminum mounting plates for some machinery. Quite impressive.
I doubt its accuracy matches traditional CNC, but good enough for most carpentry type jobs.

Just like a table CNC, you can adjust the "level of accuracy". You can pick an offset to do near 1 mm and the do the last mm (or fraction) as a cleanup pass.

In person I was very impressed... Especially since the full release is due in September 2017.

Cheers. Bryan.


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Offline Svar

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2016, 02:53 PM »
Just like a table CNC, you can adjust the "level of accuracy". You can pick an offset to do near 1 mm and the do the last mm (or fraction) as a cleanup pass.

I was thinking in terms of overall rigidity. But then it does not have that large gantry span, so perhaps no need for massive mechanisms.

Offline GhostFist

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2016, 09:20 PM »
I work in a production based environment.  We use cnc for mass production. Load in sheet goods, out come parts. This frees up the man hours on repeat processes and makes identical multiples. Layout is done once. For me, I  don't see this as useful. To others it might be great, but I'm not seeing it for what I do

Offline CarolinaNomad

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2016, 12:21 AM »
I don't see the shaper as a mass production cnc machine.  I see the shaper as a big cnc machine for a one man shop in the garage or basement, that can produce small wooden or aluminum pieces to large kitchen panels.  Of course, producing a kitchen in the basement becomes a little bit more profitable for a one or two man shop.  For a cnc machine to cut 5'x10' sheet of goods, a shop needs a dedicated room to house the cnc machine and a 5'x10' sheet.  The Shaper allows someone to cut a 5'x10' sheet or 2'x24' Facial board anywhere that can support the size and produce anything that can be drawn.  Limitations are depth of cut, manually moved around (which means one can't start the program and walk away).  Or the slower you go the higher percentage of accuracy, but for a tedious cnc project with numerous cuts or having the shaper sculpt an ornate crown molding.  Doable, but time consuming to the one man shop.

I saw the shaper in action at the Connect.  The gentleman routed out a circle for a 2" pipe.  The first cut, he specified the hole to be slightly smaller than the pipe.  He then cut the hole and of course the pipe didn't fit.  He then increased the hole size slightly up on the computer screen (he said some computer jargon stuff, ya da ya da), recut the hole and the pipe fit snugly all around the pipe.  That convinced me that the machine is accurate even though it was moved around by a human.

I'm on the fence regarding purchasing one because I have a small need/big want for a cnc machine in my 2 man portable shop.  I sure could use it to produce my variation to the Ron Paulk work bench, MFTC (Wilmots bench),  or Hornbergers cnc clamps.  Or butterflys for a wood slab at a week point in the wood slab.
Jeff
resides in NAINA

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2016, 01:19 AM »
To me the best feature of Shaper is it's portability. Like the Festool track saws, you take Shaper to the work.

Imagine a big three sided bar, already installed. With Shaper you could add intricate inlays and even come back later and inlay into the inlay.

Offline Svar

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2016, 01:52 AM »
Will this work on a vertical surface? For example, make cutout in a wall.

Offline Cheese

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2016, 02:25 AM »
Will this work on a vertical surface? For example, make cutout in a wall.

Why not? Just lay down some tape, map the area and cut away.

I wanted to pre-purchase when the entry fee was $1400, but I missed the cut-off point. Now that they're at the $1600 level and will still not ship for another year, I'll just wait. I think they showed their cards prematurely and have possibly opened the door for others. Time will tell.

Offline rst

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2016, 07:25 AM »
I've been tire kicking CNC for a few years now and decided that for that amount of money I am going to give it a shot...gave them a deposit yesterday.  I make a lot of pattern work and although I have been hesitant to pull the trigger on a standard CNC because of space considerations and having to learn a drawing program...I'm a sketch and try guy, never really do scale drawing.  Plus I'm 63...old dogs and new tricks.

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 1911
Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2016, 07:30 AM »
Will this work on a vertical surface? For example, make cutout in a wall.

The guys there had a jig they made to do end grain vertical type stuff. It had a large area to take the domino dots.

Cheers. Bryan.


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Offline Svar

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2016, 09:22 AM »
Will this work on a vertical surface? For example, make cutout in a wall.

The guys there had a jig they made to do end grain vertical type stuff. It had a large area to take the domino dots.

Cheers. Bryan.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This could potentially be 3D. Add another set of targets on a vertical surface, place the machine on a route sled and carve reliefs.

Offline Cheese

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2016, 09:55 AM »
...although I have been hesitant to pull the trigger on a standard CNC because of space considerations and having to learn a drawing program...I'm a sketch and try guy, never really do scale drawing.  Plus I'm 63...old dogs and new tricks.

I'm with you on this one @rst, I've also failed to pull the pin because the foot print of a CNC that will handle decent sized parts, can get pretty large. Throw in the manipulation of vectors and different drawing software and now attach another computer to this mess and things just got rather cumbersome and unwieldy.

I do everything in QuickCAD 8, but started to learn Fusion 360 this weekend because that is the software that Shaper uses.  [cool]

Offline Michael Kellough

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Offline GhostFist

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2016, 12:28 PM »
Film

Offline zapdafish

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2016, 12:31 PM »
I'm learning sketchup cuz it's free for the same reason. I asked how to access ShaperHub and its pretty lame that it wont be available until close to release. As someone who has never worked with CNC I want at least a basic example of what an actual template is like.

Quote from: shaperFAQ
You can send 2-D, vector designs (SVG files) to Origin from your iOS, Mac, Windows, Android, or Linux device. The tool supports a variety of files created from software like Inkscape, Illustrator, Sketchup, Solidworks, and AutoCAD. Additionally, ShaperHub provides a collection of projects, designs, and templates that are ready to be made.






I do everything in QuickCAD 8, but started to learn Fusion 360 this weekend because that is the software that Shaper uses.  [cool]
CT22, TS55, Kapex, RO150, Domino, RS 2 E

Offline rst

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2016, 12:50 PM »
The nicest thing for me about Shaper is that it will scan and load existing patterns and although full sized CNCs have this capabiltiy also, they cost a whole lot more than $1500.00.

Offline Mike B

  • Posts: 73
Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2016, 01:29 AM »
I can definitely see promise, though the seemingly close Festool partnership has me worried that it may turn green one day and add another zero to the price.  [smile]
I'm more than happy to sit on the fence with this one though. First generations of any CNC device are always left in the dust pretty quickly. Whatever I end up with with definitely be a version 2 or 3...
My heartfelt thanks and respect for all the early adopters out there troubleshooting my future hand-held CNC device.  [wink]

Offline piethout

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2016, 05:14 AM »
Just got one on pre order today.  Will be great for template cutting and then take the real 2" walnut piece to a bigger router table with the template taped on.  Great for custom work in a solid work furniture shop I think!  This seems to be the future and a pretty good approach.  My feeling is, I can wait 4 years for it to mature or just start using it today (aka a year from now) and speed up a bunch of workflows! 

Also!  If anyone gets one - use this link and you'll get an extra $100 off after you checkout!

https://preorder.shapertools.com/ref/3HN2HQ5FT

They have a great referral program, both the referrer and the referee get 100 bucks off and you can keep referring until your tool is free!  Im sure we can get some free tools with everyone in these forums!  Hop on, see you in the future!

Offline Kev

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2016, 07:12 AM »
With a better alternative for guidance than the calibrated tape, this sort of thing could evolve into some clever 3D robotic sculpting over time. I would have thought coded clamp on rails with laser readers or someting could be a future path.

Offline ali

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2016, 08:44 AM »
If I had the chance to buy one today (I'm in the UK) I would certainly do so and give it a shot.

It is still an entry level router but opens up new markets for newbies. Whilst I congratulate the guys behind it for getting this far, I hope they don't leave it too long before it finally starts shipping. What is the hold up?

Also, what part did festool play in this? Is the generic router anything to do with them?

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2016, 09:24 AM »

...Also, what part did festool play in this? Is the generic router anything to do with them?

I asked Christian O. from Festool the same questions.  Festool is very interested in the concept whereas it continues their philosophy of bringing the tool to the work.  They have offered technical assistance if needed, but that is all.  They are not investors nor have they supplied anything used in the manufacturing.

Peter

Offline teocaf

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2016, 09:34 AM »
Also, what part did festool play in this? Is the generic router anything to do with them?

That would have been a great question to ask the festool execs at connect.  Not that you would have gotten an answer, mind you.
I was at the shaper booth there and someone asked the demonstrator where it was being made.  Just by the way he hesitated and stammered a bit before saying something vague like they're looking for production facilities, made me think that he did not want to reveal something he knew.  PURE speculation on my part. I can't help but think that the design of the thing would not look out of place in the Festool lineup (the Conturo comes to mind).  Also Festo which is a separate company (but perhaps still linked in some ways?) is pioneering all kinds of automation projects, some of which have shown up on here.  Again, pure speculation if any of this is related.  Just wondering why Festool would invite somebody else to their new tool rollout and take attention from their own brand...

It's obvious that a lot of the new makers and diy-ers are combining a renewed love for hand tools with all the new stuff.  The other day I saw that even Powermatic was getting into the cnc game.

I'm not going to prepay for the shaper that far ahead, but I am looking at this Handibot:



(as a funny aside, I kept rewatching the first few seconds of the video where he's introducing himself while trying to follow his printed name below the video and I just could not connect how he says his last name to the way it's written--maybe even he can't pronounce his own name!)

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2016, 09:41 AM »
@teocaf

Christian was the executive I asked at the Connect Event.  I suspect that our posts might have crossed in typing.

Peter

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Cochese

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2016, 10:02 AM »
I dismissed this at first, but I'm really interested. But not at the way it is being funded. I'm not someone who has that sort of cash to blow at once, and I don't want it sitting on a card for a couple months.

Guess I will have to pass.

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2016, 12:05 PM »
I wrote Shaper to ask about the spindle a few weeks ago;

"Regarding the spindle, we are sourcing a high-quality router, but have not announced the vendor. "

Offline teocaf

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2016, 12:08 PM »
@teocaf

Christian was the executive I asked at the Connect Event.  I suspect that our posts might have crossed in typing.

Peter

@Peter Halle
Yeah, it said someone else had posted on the thread but I did not pause to read your entry before hitting Post.  If you could not get any more details out of them about this Shaper thing, then I certainly would not have been able to do it.
Btw, it was good to meet you at Connect on our way out.  My kids really like the goodies they got, especially the mini systainers and hats.  Sorry I could not meet all the Fogsters at the mexican restaurant that evening.  My kids were such good troopers getting up before 6am so we could get on the road that I decided to stop at Millenium Park in Chicago on the way back so they could have their own fun for a few hours before getting back to Wisconsin.

Offline jimbo51

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2016, 02:06 PM »
This tool would be great for cutting custom inserts for Systainers out of various types of foam. It would even be capable of cutting an insert for a Maxi-tainer which would otherwise require a rather large CNC machine. With the proper software, you could lay tools on top of the foam, take a few pictures for 3D modeling and have the router cut out the foam for a nice tight fit for any tool.

If you have 50 custom insets to make and figured that they were worth $50 each, then this would pay for itself just on that project!!!

Offline Gregor

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2016, 05:10 PM »
I would buy such a device when it is available ready to ship, performs as advertised in unbiased reviews, has a warranty policy and repair guarantees that isn't a joke (I'm from Germany, 1 year warranty is a joke) - but I won't preorder potential vaporware a year in advance (way after I can revert a CC payment for fraud).

About running costs:

Quote
Can I print my own ShaperTape?
No. The dimensional accuracy of the fiducial marker is critical to Origin's performance. ShaperTape is printed using specialized production equipment designed to ensure extremely high dimensional accuracy. This level of accuracy cannot be replicated on a standard printer.
Which is blantantly false, given how printers operate these days.

Quote
How long is a roll of ShaperTape?
Each roll is 150ft in length. This is enough to cover approximately one and a half standard 4' x 8' sheets of plywood.
Boils down to: they bigger your workpiece, the more expensive it gets to work on it.

Quote
How much will ShaperTape cost?
Our intention is to provide ShaperTape at near-cost. Based on current production costs, we anticipate being able to offer ShaperTape directly to consumers for between $10 and $15 per 150-foot roll.
Given the prices I have access to their anticipation (using the lower mark) isn't anywhere near-cost but has at least 300% markup inside it (and that is when you make low volume orders, through a middleman, like <100 25mm x 50m rolls, one color matte printing black on matte white film, adhesive of your choice - high volume production will be way cheaper).

The idea is nice, the way they want shear you with consumeables isn't, as are the payment terms. IMHO.

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2016, 05:23 PM »
Quote
How much will ShaperTape cost?
Our intention is to provide ShaperTape at near-cost. Based on current production costs, we anticipate being able to offer ShaperTape directly to consumers for between $10 and $15 per 150-foot roll.
Given the prices I have access to their anticipation (using the lower mark) isn't anywhere near-cost but has at least 300% markup inside it (and that is when you make low volume orders, through a middleman, like <100 25mm x 50m rolls, one color matte printing black on matte white film, adhesive of your choice - high volume production will be way cheaper).

The idea is nice, the way they want shear you with consumeables isn't, as are the payment terms. IMHO.

I too would be concerned about the cost of the tape.  I don't know if it is marked up 300% or not.  I believe it is a high fidelity print of a 150 foot long non-repeating pattern.  I'd guess that isn't going to be cheap to produce.   
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Svar

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2016, 05:37 PM »
Given the prices I have access to their anticipation (using the lower mark) isn't anywhere near-cost but has at least 300% markup inside it (and that is when you make low volume orders, through a middleman, like <100 25mm x 50m rolls, one color matte printing black on matte white film, adhesive of your choice - high volume production will be way cheaper).

I'm looking at regular adhesive tapes on Amazon and can hardly see any under $10/50m. Regular duct tape retails at this price. Manufacturers must be all getting rich raking money at 300% margin.
You don't even know what tape is required. It probably shouldn't stretch even 0.05%.
Besides, you claim it can by printed on a regular printer, could be a business opportunity for you.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 05:47 PM by Svar »

Offline Cheese

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2016, 05:47 PM »
I believe it is a high fidelity print of a 150 foot long non-repeating pattern.  I'd guess that isn't going to be cheap to produce.   

That's interesting...if 150' will be needed for 1 1/2 sheets of ply, then that would also be the largest surface to work at one time, or the non-repeating pattern would have to have to be run for longer than 150' increments.

Offline Svar

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2016, 05:56 PM »
That's interesting...if 150' will be needed for 1 1/2 sheets of ply, then that would also be the largest surface to work at one time, or the non-repeating pattern would have to have to be run for longer than 150' increments.

They've got 18 dots (positions) per black rectangle. That's 2^18 = 262144 unique combinations. Good for some 10 miles of tape.

Offline Cheese

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2016, 05:59 PM »
They've got 18 dots (positions) per black rectangle. That's 2^18 = 262144 unique combinations. Good for some 10 miles of tape.

 Now that makes more sense...thanks [smile]

Offline Svar

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2016, 06:02 PM »
I too would be concerned about the cost of the tape. 

I wonder if you could tape a flat panel and clamp it in the field of view of the machine, then reuse it on another project. I imagine you don't need to have it right where you are cutting as long as the machine sees enough of the pattern at all times.

Offline Svar

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2016, 06:14 PM »
I believe it is a high fidelity print of a 150 foot long non-repeating pattern.  I'd guess that isn't going to be cheap to produce.

Good point. Not an expert, but I think regular machines will only do short repetitive pattern. Non repetitive would be much slower process.

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2016, 06:15 PM »
I too would be concerned about the cost of the tape. 

I wonder if you could tape a flat panel and clamp it in the field of view of the machine, then reuse it on another project. I imagine you don't need to have it right where you are cutting as long as the machine sees enough of the pattern at all times.

It would probably have to be in/on the same plane too.

Is it true that the dot pattern is/must be non-repeating? I haven't read that before.

If the same pattern (from a panel with pre-applied tape as above) somehow conflicts with a pre-existing project stored in memory maybe that panel could be divided into strips that could be rearranged.

Offline Svar

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #44 on: September 21, 2016, 06:18 PM »
It would probably have to be in/on the same plane too.

I think so. Program in an offset?

Is it true that the dot pattern is/must be non-repeating? I haven't read that before.

No clue, but they are all different in the videos I've seen.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 06:20 PM by Svar »

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 2866
Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #45 on: September 21, 2016, 06:22 PM »
An off-set is a very good thought. Could be a big benefit if it works.

Offline neilc

  • Posts: 2129
Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2016, 06:31 PM »
It reads the proximity of the tape and dot pattern to other tape as well. 


So I'm not sure it has to be a completely different set of dot patterns.  It's taking a photo of the landscape and then using the dots to re-orient. 


But I think those dots are in relation to the other patterns in the stitched-together photo.  I only suggest this because it is reading x and y and distance. 

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5073
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2016, 07:35 PM »
@teocaf

Christian was the executive I asked at the Connect Event.  I suspect that our posts might have crossed in typing.

Peter

@Peter Halle
Yeah, it said someone else had posted on the thread but I did not pause to read your entry before hitting Post.  If you could not get any more details out of them about this Shaper thing, then I certainly would not have been able to do it.
Btw, it was good to meet you at Connect on our way out.  My kids really like the goodies they got, especially the mini systainers and hats.  Sorry I could not meet all the Fogsters at the mexican restaurant that evening.  My kids were such good troopers getting up before 6am so we could get on the road that I decided to stop at Millenium Park in Chicago on the way back so they could have their own fun for a few hours before getting back to Wisconsin.

Very nice park to stop at.

Tom

Offline antss

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2016, 10:43 PM »
Cool innovation , but I cannot see how this tool will allow one to make a profit in a commercial setting if it needs to be operated by a human that is paid an hourly wage.

Think there's a lot of call for curved bar inlay work and that it is best done on site ?  ::) Or much money in making templates?  And $50 foam systainer inserts will prob bankrupt the person making them unless they're retired and only need to break even on hard costs.

I admire the dreamers though.

Offline Cheese

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2016, 11:11 PM »
Cool innovation , but I cannot see how this tool will allow one to make a profit in a commercial setting if it needs to be operated by a human that is paid an hourly wage

I think the target audience for this item is the DIY crowd. In a commercial setting, the purchase of a CNC would be the obvious choice to supplant the need for this item. This item needs a tether and that would be anathema to how the industrialized workforce functions.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1032
Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #50 on: September 28, 2016, 11:39 PM »
Cool innovation , but I cannot see how this tool will allow one to make a profit in a commercial setting if it needs to be operated by a human that is paid an hourly wage

I think the target audience for this item is the DIY crowd. In a commercial setting, the purchase of a CNC would be the obvious choice to supplant the need for this item. This item needs a tether and that would be anathema to how the industrialized workforce functions.
Who knows what will come out of this, but professionals drop $500 on MFS template that can only do rectangles and consider it a good investment. Origin can do at least that and 10 times more. I think it can fit in a one man shop operation well.
Comparing the Origin to industrial CNC is like comparing a jigsaw to a sawmill. Both have their pace in professional environment.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 12:46 AM by Svar »

Offline clark_fork

  • Posts: 244
Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2016, 12:00 AM »
I think the CNC inventors have it backwards. What they need is what came to be known as a "Killer App." in the early days of personal computing. When long forgotten programs called VisiCalc and WordStar came along, the value of personal computers finally became evident.  These programs sold a lot of computers. These program evolved into Lotus and WordPerfect and finally Microsoft came along and put them out of their misery with Word and Excel.

When drawing software comes out that Mr. and Mrs. America can easily use, the software will sell CNC machines.

As far a commercial use, think how easy the Origin can make sink or appliance inserts or cut curves in counter tops or make electrical outlet holes in drywall. Think about intricate floor inlays. Commercial use will drive the CNC development.  It has to because the initial costs will remain high for some time. Then as the price goes down the arts and crafts farmer's market birdhouse gang will take over. But not much will happen until the software leads the way....

« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 12:06 AM by clark_fork »
Clark Fork

"A lot of people are afraid of heights. Not me, I'm afraid of widths."  Stephen Wright

"straight, smooth and square" Mr. Russell, first day high school shop class-1954

" What's the good of it?" My Sainted Grandmother

"You can't be too rich, too thin or have too many clamps." After my introduction to pocket joinery and now the MFT work process

"Don't make something unless it is both made necessary and useful; but if it is both necessary and useful,
don't hesitate to make it beautiful." -- Shaker dictum

Offline Cheese

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2016, 12:38 AM »
I think the CNC inventors have it backwards. What they need is what came to be known as a "Killer App." in the early days of personal computing.
When drawing software comes out that Mr. and Mrs. America can easily use, the software will sell CNC machines.

Bingo...when you no longer need to design the part in a software program and can just dial it in on an ad hoc basis, the job becomes a lot easier, and the hardware will be perceived to be a lot more affordable because the software will seem to be more approachable.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1188
Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2016, 09:35 PM »
I think the target audience for this item is the DIY crowd. In a commercial setting, the purchase of a CNC would be the obvious choice to supplant the need for this item. This item needs a tether and that would be anathema to how the industrialized workforce functions.
[/quote]

Think there's a big hobbyist crowd looking to drop $2000 + $10-$20 a project for the tape just to putts around ?  Additionally - who's going to get the sale ?  Seems like there are several routers being shopped - is there to be a tie in with someone like Festool  or will sales be direct ???  How many can be produced and delivered in a quarter ?  How big is the call center that'll field the "how do I" questions ?

My opinion is this is not quite ready for prime time.  It's not vaporware, but I just don't see it becoming a tool that a significant number add to their arsenal.

Svar - a lot less pros than you think bought a MFS !  So many in fact that Festool has decided to stop carrying it in the U.S.   One doesn't drop a big seller from it's offering list.  A jigsaw is used by many carpenters to do  various tasks that earn them money and help productivity.  Trimming to length, scribe work, coping crown and base, sink and outlet box cutouts,  cutting metal, scroll work, framing notches, window cutouts, roof sheathing ellipses, cabinetry work, ect.......

All I've seen this thing do is a nifty map of the USA and someone though it might be good for inlay work on site.  Intricate inlay work is best done is a controlled shop environment, and I doubt those with that skill are gonna run out and buy an Origin that's unproven with that.  The time and materials invested in with most inlay commissions means you can take a chance with a new unproven tool.  And lets not forget you or another paid worker are going to have to code that inlay design before you start making sawdust.  CAD techs don't come cheap either.

So what on a jobsite will I or any of you going to ACTUALLY use this thing on to produce revenue ???  Or even in a one man shop ?  Sure , it'd be cool to use to whip out some templates, but not $2000 cool  + the programming time.   Any of you that pre-ordered wanna clue me in on what you're going to make with this thing ?

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3300
Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2016, 11:58 PM »
I think the target audience for this item is the DIY crowd. In a commercial setting, the purchase of a CNC would be the obvious choice to supplant the need for this item. This item needs a tether and that would be anathema to how the industrialized workforce functions.

1. Think there's a big hobbyist crowd looking to drop $2000 + $10-$20 a project for the tape just to putts around ? 
2. Additionally - who's going to get the sale ? 
3. Seems like there are several routers being shopped - is there to be a tie in with someone like Festool  or will sales be direct ???
4. How many can be produced and delivered in a quarter ? 
5. How big is the call center that'll field the "how do I" questions ?

1. As a matter of fact I do, this forum is a perfect example. Festool's own numbers stated that in the early years they estimated that 60%-70% of their products purchased in the US, were purchased by hobbyists/DIY'ers and not professionals. Look at the majority of the posters on this forum, most are not professionals but yet they own multiple Festool track saws, multiple Festool routers, multiple Festool sanders...well you get the idea. Interestingly enough, being a long time photography enthusiast, I read a column today (no it was not Ken Rockwell [huh] [huh] [huh]) ... that stated that enthusiast/amateur photographers would be willing to spend $10K on a medium format camera, (no lenses), and they presupposed that was the entry level for many other enthusiasts that pursued other interests. [eek] So, $2K is not an impediment for the serious enthusiast and $10 in tape is nothing compared to the $$$ we've spent on Festool sanding discs.

2. The sale of what...you lost me on this one.

3. At this juncture, it seems like Festool probably has the inside track as far as supplying router bodies to Shaper. Why was Shaper at Festool Connect, and why does Shaper promote dust collection? I think it's a given...they're just hammering out the pricing as we speak.

4. Who knows...who cares, that's a Shaper issue, something they need to manage to make their share holders happy.

5. Again, another Shaper issue and we're all on the sidelines making our calls when the reality is, this game won't be played until September 2017...a year from now. And in that time frame, the rules may change.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1188
Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #55 on: September 30, 2016, 06:55 PM »
1. Fair enough, and I agree that Festools foothold here was with that group. Early on most pros were just too reluctant (or just unable) to spend that kind $$$ on these tools. I was really responding to the comment that pros would scoop this thing up. They are more sensitive to acquisition costs and consumables - especially if a tool isn't being used regularly.

2.&3. Kinda go together.  Is Festool going to be the motor supplier ?  What if theyre not?  What if the final product is like a router lift and fits multiple motors and has a couple of dstribution partners?

4. Again, I think it's a bigger picture than that.  Say Festool is the dist. winner, they are going to need a sizable number of units to fill their worldwide distribution channel.  Something a startup cottage industry doesn't necessarily worry about at the outset.  A healthy / manageable order backlog is often an advantage for a small business. Order backlog for a multinational isn't as attractive. 

If your hobbyist take is correct , that crowd isn't always patient. 

5. Of course they'll change. I was only pointing out that something this new and complex looking to create a new market is going to produce the need for a lot of handholding.  Those hobbyist are going to be miffed if they can't operate their mapmaker and can't talk to customer service in a timely manner and with satisfactory results.

I think this is geared more to the well heeled hobbyist than the professional. I also don't think the sell is as easy as an expensive router, sander, drill, or saw that people can easily wrap their head around using for multiple tasks around their home or shop. So, I again ask..........what are y'all going to make with one of these ??? [scratch chin]

« Last Edit: October 01, 2016, 07:38 AM by antss »

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1032
Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #56 on: September 30, 2016, 07:44 PM »
How big is the call center that'll field the "how do I" questions ?

What does this have to do with anything? I recently dealt with a startup that makes linear motion systems for photography, just few guys. Their support, manuals, online instructions, videos, apps, feedback were some of the best I've ever seen. You don't need a call center to provide a good service.

Online SRSemenza

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #57 on: September 30, 2016, 08:07 PM »
As far as pro use goes........ If I had a Shaper four weeks ago I could have done the CNC for part of a job I was doing for a customer of mine and made the $300 for the CNC myself instead of sending it to a CNC shop. It doesn't take too many of those to pay for a Shaper.

Seth

Offline neilc

  • Posts: 2129
Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #58 on: September 30, 2016, 10:19 PM »
For those interested, Shaper has a pretty good selection of videos on their youtube channel - www.youtube.com/shapertools and they are adding more every week.  They have plans for a community similar to FOG that will be part of their website for sharing designs, tips, etc.  I think it could be a really rich experience.  Imagine downloading a plan for an MFT into the tool and cutting it out.   Opendesk.com is one of their partners and I could see lots of examples available for download for cabinets, knock down furniture, jigs, etc.  The tool is programmable and you'll see downloadable templates that you can add or change over time based on my conversations with the team at Connect.

Sure you could learn and import G-code, or you can draw with the tool, download to the tool from various sources or draw your work using tools like Fusion 360 from Autodesk which is excellent.

One of their videos shows it cutting finger joints.  Enter the width of the piece, the number of fingers and  the depth and it automatically takes it from there to produce evenly spaced finger joints. Yes you guide it, and you make a template to hold the pieces vertically.  But I can imagine that template being a download that you can cut with the shaper.  Self-creating tools and jigs are around the corner!

Beyond finger joints, no reason it can't do the same with dovetails.  That's one use case.  By comparison, a Leigh D4R dovetail jig in their 24" version is $650.   Then you need a router.  Based on what I can see, the Shaper should do what that jig does and a more.  And it's not limited to 24" in width.  You're approaching 50-75% of the price of the Shaper with a high end dovetail jig.  I think it will give you more creativity and flexibility for dovetails and a lot more. 

Want to do unique inlays in an installed floor, tabletop or counter?  Tough to do with a  conventional CNC machine.  You can do it with templates, but you have to cut the templates with something.  I'd say Shaper could be a game changer for applications like that.  The template is in the tool.  Butterfly inlays in a live edge split piece?  Easy to do in 5 minutes.   Take the tool to the work, just like Festool.

Yes, I ordered one after using it, spending a lot of time at Connect with their team, and watching their videos.  I've debated a table-based unit, but did not want to commit the shop space.  I'm a serious hobby user, but I think it will have applications for professionals.   

The downside of the Shaper for production shops is that it requires you to guide it.   But I think there are plenty of applications for small runs or special applications where it will prove to be very capable.


« Last Edit: September 30, 2016, 10:54 PM by neilc »

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1032
Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #59 on: September 30, 2016, 10:37 PM »
Aside from what was mentioned I can see this tool in a small designer/artist studio used for prototyping and making quick design changes on the go instead of running to a pro shop every time.

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 390
Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #60 on: October 01, 2016, 06:59 AM »
Will it fit in the back of an Elio?


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Offline antss

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #61 on: October 01, 2016, 07:56 AM »
Seth, was that $300 the profit you you would have made keeping the cnc job in house or just the subbed fee you paid the jobber?

Did that include the hour of your time you would have spent running the Origin ? Did it include the opportunity cost of you're not being able to utilize that hour doing another task that produced revenue for your company? 

That sublet job should have included margin for you when you billed it back to the client, so there should be $90-$100 dollars going into your business on that $300 sub out so that you can have resources to do things like buy new Festools.     :)

On the surface , it seems you've just laid out an easy payment plan or self rationalization for getting a new toy. Nothing wrong with that, I'll wager just about all the members of this board have done that at some point.

Offline Bohdan

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #62 on: October 01, 2016, 09:43 AM »
What about the time spent subbing the job out, getting the material to the subby, explaining what was required, getting the finished job back, and the waiting hoping that you get what you actually want.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1032
Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #63 on: October 01, 2016, 10:22 AM »
What about the time spent subbing the job out, getting the material to the subby, explaining what was required, getting the finished job back, and the waiting hoping that you get what you actually want.
Excellent point. ... and possibly delaying the next phases of you project due to lack of this critical part.

Online SRSemenza

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Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #64 on: October 01, 2016, 11:20 AM »
   These things can be very situational and anecdotal. Yes the full $300 would have had some offset. In this case I had time to run the shaper, and create the pattern. Granted some of that time I could have been doing something else. However I would not have needed to take time to make two trips to the CNC shop, etc.

  And I could have had the parts same day or next instead of a week later. In this case it was not a production item either. I needed two not ten or twenty. So there was no "mass" production time or money savings by having outsourced it. 

  Realistically It would have made a $200 difference on my end. But the general point I was making is that the Shaper, even at a fairly high cost, has a profit generating place.

  And, Svar and Bohdan pointed out, additional non-monetary advantages.

  Not saying the Shaper is right for everyone in every situation, just pointing out that it has place in the professional world. Having one wouldn't mean that I would use  it in place of a CNC shop every time but it would be a good tool in the arsenal for me.

Seth

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 2866
Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #65 on: October 01, 2016, 11:56 AM »
I have a Cutawl K-11.

It's an early 20th Century tool that is still used in industry, primarily for cutting slots for die stock.

The Cutawl is basically a sewing machine liberated from the table. The reciprocating shaft is offset in swivel bearings so the blade follows the lead of the operator. It is the ultimate scroll saw and acn cut acute inside corners that the Shaper could approach only with the tiniest end mill (and commensurate slower stock removal).

The Shaper is in many ways the 21st Century replacement of the Cutawl (except for the above example which is a piece of cake for a laser cutter or high pressure water jet). Although generally similar in size shape and function, the Cutawl requires supreme focus from the operator while the Shaper only needs casual attention. And the Cutawl requires a full scale template secured to the work beforehand.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 2866
Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #66 on: October 01, 2016, 11:15 PM »
Just found an official price sheet for the Cutawl K11 from 1958.
The price at that time was $195. Probably pretty close to the 2016 price of the Shaper.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3300
Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #67 on: October 02, 2016, 10:52 AM »
...the Cutawl requires supreme focus from the operator while the Shaper only needs casual attention.

That's an understatement...I think after an hour of use you'd need to just walk away from it for a day or two.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 2866
Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #68 on: October 02, 2016, 12:07 PM »
...the Cutawl requires supreme focus from the operator while the Shaper only needs casual attention.

That's an understatement...I think after an hour of use you'd need to just walk away from it for a day or two.

Some designs require less focus.

Back in the day workers in store display shops ran the things all day long, with no visible hearing protection. Maybe cotton balls? It's pretty much like freehand routing but the noise is much less annoying.

 

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 3300
Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #69 on: September 07, 2017, 02:39 PM »
Just got this in my e-mail...interesting.

The Shaper Origin will now be packaged in its own Systainer.

https://gallery.mailchimp.com/f20cb62a537070d95b62a38db/images/e6e9a86f-6dc2-4af6-a6b6-29430b522a3b.gif

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1032
Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #70 on: September 07, 2017, 02:52 PM »
I think it will be a success. One way to improve it is to use reusable markers/beacons or just surrounding stationary objects instead of the tape for positioning and orientation. With all the current development of Structure From Motion technology it's a logical direction.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 04:54 PM by Svar »

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 725
Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #71 on: September 07, 2017, 10:19 PM »
Ha! Thats funny they chose to put it in a Systainer.
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline rst

  • Posts: 1509
Re: Shaper Origin the first handheld Cnc machine
« Reply #72 on: September 08, 2017, 07:04 AM »
Not so funny when you consider Festool is making the router motor... ties right in there.   [big grin]  Mine will get shipped in the second release.