Author Topic: Church Entrance  (Read 41142 times)

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Offline jmbfestool

  • Posts: 6619
Church Entrance
« on: February 14, 2011, 08:00 AM »
Hello!

I would like some advice please on this job I had a look at 2 day!

The client pointed out the pieces of rotten wood he wanted replacing and asked me to check it over if any where else needs replacing for safety reasons.

He told me another joiner/carpenter used some scaffolding and lifted the entire canopy up then replaced the rotten pieces. I can see on one side he used a loose tenon to allow him to fit the new piece. As you can see it has rotten again over the years and the loose tenon has allowed the main upright beam to rot higher up. 

He was saying he just wanted it structurally sound so just replace the rotten bits. I suggested that it would be better I made the triangle section off site so the up right the bottoms and the diagonal pieces as one. So I could turn up with both sides so less time on site.


He was happy with that!  BUT if it was my own I would replace the entire structure.

I would like some advice to how I should tackle this and if I should convince him to just replace the lot.     This means I would not have to put scaffolding up to lift the roof section up and remove to old to replace the new. I can simply remove the entire thing and turn up with the new in large sections and put it together and reuse the tiles.  As you can see it needs repointing again any way.

The wood will look all the same and should not need replacing for a long time again I hope.


31840-0


You can see this one has been replace and used a loose tenon to fix it.
31842-1
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Offline jonny round boy

  • Posts: 3224
Re: Church Entrance
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2011, 08:13 AM »
JMB,

I've never done anything like that so can't really offer any advice on how to go about it. What I would say though is check that it isn't protected in any way (listing, conservation area etc.) as many churches are, and entrances like this will likely be covered by that too. And don't just take the vicar's word for it, as you'd be liable not him if you fell foul of the planning department!
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Offline jmbfestool

  • Posts: 6619
Re: Church Entrance
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2011, 08:19 AM »
JMB,

I've never done anything like that so can't really offer any advice on how to go about it. What I would say though is check that it isn't protected in any way (listing, conservation area etc.) as many churches are, and entrances like this will likely be covered by that too. And don't just take the vicar's word for it, as you'd be liable not him if you fell foul of the planning department!


umm, Cheers!  Never thought about it really!  He had an old joiner who use to do it and repaired the the rotten pieces but its a bit more than just the bottom pieces now its the uprights going aswell so bit more work and I was recommend for the job [scared] and I have not really do something like this done a few things similar on roofs and stuff but not on a church so never thought about the planning! Ill looked into that!   He said der is no rush do do the job.


JMB
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Offline Craftsman

  • Posts: 38
Re: Church Entrance
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2011, 08:20 AM »
I agree. If I were looking at that job, I would be talking to the customer about replacement not repair. I would take a lot of photos and measurments and replace it exactly as the original.

Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Church Entrance
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2011, 08:24 AM »
31846-0

31848-1

31850-2



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Offline jmbfestool

  • Posts: 6619
Re: Church Entrance
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2011, 08:49 AM »
I agree. If I were looking at that job, I would be talking to the customer about replacement not repair. I would take a lot of photos and measurments and replace it exactly as the original.


Cheers! Thats what I am thinking!   Like jonny said though about planning.  I know planning let you replace damaged and rotten for structural reasons no problem but replacing the entire thing might need planning maybe?  I dont know.  I would prefer to take more photos and take more measurements and make as original as I think it is a much better job.


JMB
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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Church Entrance
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2011, 09:35 AM »
I know its hard to tell but some one might know a bit about history! Maybe you might know what type of oak most churches where made off?

Well the Vicar! Said its made out of Black oak!  Well looking on the internet I can not find anything called black oak!  To me it looks like fresh sawn oak?  I scratched with my keys and it kinda looks a light colour so im assuming its fresh sawn oak.


thank you

JMB
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Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3521
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Church Entrance
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2011, 09:41 AM »
IMHO, I would replace it and redesign (not drastically) it so that those beams that are touching the cement posts are clear of standing water/moisture and more resistant to rot.

Even if you patch it you will never be happy with it, you will still incur the wrath of the local historical preservation board or whom ever has their eye on this structure and the Vicar will go ahead and hire someone else to repair your work.

It's a nice project, I hope you get it.
Tim
« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 09:54 AM by Tim Raleigh »

Offline jonny round boy

  • Posts: 3224
Re: Church Entrance
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2011, 09:59 AM »
I know its hard to tell but some one might know a bit about history! Maybe you might know what type of oak most churches where made off?

Well the Vicar! Said its made out of Black oak!  Well looking on the internet I can not find anything called black oak!  To me it looks like fresh sawn oak?  I scratched with my keys and it kinda looks a light colour so im assuming its fresh sawn oak.


thank you

JMB

I'd guess it's just Engilsh oak.
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Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3521
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Church Entrance
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2011, 10:22 AM »
He may of meant Black Walnut or Black Locust which is supposed to be highly rot resistant. Maybe originally that's what it was made from....I would think that White oak would probably be a safe bet for replacement.
Tim

Offline Holzhacker

  • Posts: 889
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Re: Church Entrance
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2011, 11:22 AM »
I would have two main concerns about a job like this.
- As others have mentioned, Historical preservation (called Landmarks Dept for short by us) may have an issue with full replacement. Often times here they aren't too concerned about repairs as long as the repairs match. Once you talk replacement they tend to freak out and what all kinds of drawings, verifications of countless nonsense and assurances in writing the new will be the same as the old. I would definitely check that out.
- As far as repair versus replace ... In this situation from what I am seeing I would recommend replacement also. Of course the cost tends to be a difficult pill for a client to swallow when they were thinking of only paying for a repair. However, having worked for churches, they often aren't as dumb or ill-informed as they like to pretend. The Vicar may already know that replacement is needed.
I run into a fair amount of jobs that really should be replaced instead of repaired. I run several sets of numbers in my proposal. The replacement cost, the repair cost now and the repair cost over the next several years. You can explain it all you want but once the ongoing numbers are on paper like that, replacement starts looking a lot better to most clients.
It is important to explain that just because they will perform X repairs this year, doesn't mean they are done. BASED ON THE EXTENT OF ROT, there will be ongoing repairs (money) in coming years. If I replace, you (the client) will be done with it for many years. This is one of those jobs where I try very hard to meet the client at the job to present the proposal instead of emailing it. This way I can go through all sets of numbers and explain (sell) the cost effectiveness of replacement. Showing the full extent of rot while going through the proposal really helps. Mr. Client you are asking me to put new wood up against old rotted wood, I can do it, but I'll be back next year and the year after and so on to replace more rotted wood, etc.
On a business note, you repair this, big whoopy do, it won't get you rave reviews. All they'll remember next year is that they paid you last year to fix it and now it needs more work. They won't think about the fact that they should have replaced it in the first place. If you replace it, it super cool advertising for your business. Nail a little Made by: plaque on the side.
Good luck
"The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

Offline windmill man

  • Posts: 671
Re: Church Entrance
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2011, 12:08 PM »
Hi JMB,

It will have been made from Green English Oak.

In my experience , they prefer repairs to replacement, because of cost and looks and you will get no hassle from the planning.

From the pics do i take it that the rot is in the bottom of the upright the horzontal bearer (at the end) and the brace and under the upright?

If so, acro the roof, locked scarf joint with dowels for upright repair, long dowelled scarf under the upright, to repair the bearer, and brace notched into both like a gallows. These are all recognised medieval joints commonly used for construction or repair.  No protective finish but i would drill the structure for boron pellets.


Hope that helps.

John

Offline windmill man

  • Posts: 671
Re: Church Entrance
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2011, 12:15 PM »
Forgot,

Green English Oak as your replacement material. nothing else , not french or european. they dont last as long as english in my experience.
Green Oak Tree nails Offset your dowel drilling.
Select  Heartwood only, NO Sapwood in yor stock

John

Oh and sharp chisels and saws.

Offline Guy Ashley

  • Posts: 662
  • Furniture & Cabinet Maker/Joiner
Re: Church Entrance
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2011, 12:21 PM »
JMB

Awesome job! I have done work for churches in the past and despite the fact that the Church of England is the biggest landowner in the UK and richer than the Monarchy they are as tight as a ducks anus!

My experience is that if the cost is under £1000 the local church has to raise the funds by church bazaars, coffee mornings, etc, but if over that amount the quote has to go off to the local Diocese where the Arch Bishop says yes or no.

As regards the rebuild whilst a total replacement would be preferable that is highly unlikely and you will have to do the rotten sections. Dont try and scarve into a rotten section, replace the lot.

The construction detail that Windmill man has given you is spot on and you could get a book on timber framing from Amazon that can give you some tips on chopping out big joints. A Makita chain morticer will pay for itself very quickly.

You will need some big augur bits, long oak dowels, and a bloody BIG mallet. With Green Oak dont try and glue anything it moves like anything and the dowels hold it together.

Site chippy into Oak mastercrafstman in one job!!  [big grin] [big grin]
DIPLOMACY:

"The art of being able to tell someone to go to Hades in such a way that they positively look forward to the journey"

Offline windmill man

  • Posts: 671
Re: Church Entrance
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2011, 12:45 PM »
Chainsaw [eek], dont go there!!!!!!! If you cut into it with a chain saw you have no idea of the forces tied up in the structure and you could end up binding on the chain and get kick back. DONT GO THERE. Chain saws should be used by trained and certificated users. Seen some terrible injuries.
Sharp Handsaw, Big Sharp Chisels , Bloody Big Maul ,Auger and some wedges should do it. Plus patience. As Guy sugested bit of research will help.
If you are feeling ambitious you cold try an arrow scarf or a double fish tail. both joints used for this type of repair(on upright). ( arrow scarf was used for footing arrow shafts, to get them to the standard cloth yard and help penetrate plate armour)

As Guy says no glue

Must get out more [big grin]

John


Edit, Sorry Guy you said chain mortiser, not chain saw, bit over kill but JMB does like his tools [big grin]
« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 12:47 PM by windmill man »

Offline jmbfestool

  • Posts: 6619
Re: Church Entrance
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2011, 12:54 PM »
Thank you every for your tips n tricks and advice!

 I'll do a little drawing of what I thought of doing and it would be nice if you could let me know if it's a good idea or not. As I was thinking of replacing the entire bottom section the diagonals and the upright up the to cross beam(horizontal) because it is a halving joint which is holding the horizontal in place  the horizontal piece is actually only notched 10mm  15mm and the vertical is notched the entire width minus 10mm15mm of corse.  I don't know if you can see from the pictures but the curved pieces should stop the roof from tipping and maybe der is some way I could cut higher up and still get a 10mm15mm thick face and rowel through the horizontal. 

I am sorry I have typed that quick and don't have time to do the drawing now and check what I just wrote but as you know it will properly b like jmb speak any way! I gotta take my girlfriend out for dinner as it's valentines day of corse!



Jmv
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Offline Guy Ashley

  • Posts: 662
  • Furniture & Cabinet Maker/Joiner
Re: Church Entrance
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2011, 12:55 PM »
John

I suggested a chain morticer as I just had this vision of him sitting astride an 8" x 8" Green oak beam trying to chop out a mortice with a 3/4" chisel. [tongue] [tongue]

Like you wouldnt touch a free chain saw!

Poor boy is only used to butchering CLS!! [big grin] [big grin]
DIPLOMACY:

"The art of being able to tell someone to go to Hades in such a way that they positively look forward to the journey"

Offline windmill man

  • Posts: 671
Re: Church Entrance
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2011, 01:03 PM »
Guy,
Few hours with a big maul an 8x8 in the rain will make a man of him.  [smile]

JMB
If the knee is split replace it(knee = curved piece)

Good man JMB got to keep the girls happy, about to get changed and out to dinner with the loved one myself.

Later John

Offline Craftsman

  • Posts: 38
Re: Church Entrance
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2011, 01:54 PM »
These boring machines also do a good job of removing waste in a large timber mortise, then just square the sides with a framing chisel. They were pretty common before electric tools and a lot of them stll around and used. Although a chain mortiser is faster the cost of renting or buying may be pretty high.

Offline woodguy7

  • Posts: 2727
Re: Church Entrance
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2011, 02:24 PM »
Well, repair or replace or looks like a very cool project, one that i would love to get my teeth into.  Just dont price it too cheap.  Time can run away on you on a job like this.

I think if you listen to what John & Guy tell you then you wont go far wrong.

Hope you got flowers to go with that dinner  ;)

Woodguy.
If its made of wood, i can make it smaller.
Shirt size medium
p.s- ive started reading these too

Offline jmbfestool

  • Posts: 6619
Re: Church Entrance
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2011, 04:32 PM »
IMHO, I would replace it and redesign (not drastically) it so that those beams that are touching the cement posts are clear of standing water/moisture and more resistant to rot.

Even if you patch it you will never be happy with it, you will still incur the wrath of the local historical preservation board or whom ever has their eye on this structure and the Vicar will go ahead and hire someone else to repair your work.

It's a nice project, I hope you get it.
Tim


Yes I agree I did mention it to the vicar.  Their is some sort of water proof membrane between the wood and stone the problem is water will jst run between the two so it wont be doing a very good job any way.    I was thinking of putting a groove all round the bottom like 10 mm up  and then putting lead around to bottom into the groove?  OR maybe covering the entire bottom and 5/10 mm up the side with some sort of tar or tanking kinda paint/fibre glass?  Also I know you dont treat the wood but I was thinking of doing the joints treat the insides of the joints tenons mortises with something as Guy Ashley, John said no glue can be used so water can get inside the joints like it has done and rot the tenons.


JMB
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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Church Entrance
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2011, 04:39 PM »
Chainsaw [eek], dont go there!!!!!!! If you cut into it with a chain saw you have no idea of the forces tied up in the structure and you could end up binding on the chain and get kick back. DONT GO THERE. Chain saws should be used by trained and certificated users. Seen some terrible injuries.
Sharp Handsaw, Big Sharp Chisels , Bloody Big Maul ,Auger and some wedges should do it. Plus patience. As Guy sugested bit of research will help.
If you are feeling ambitious you cold try an arrow scarf or a double fish tail. both joints used for this type of repair(on upright). ( arrow scarf was used for footing arrow shafts, to get them to the standard cloth yard and help penetrate plate armour)

As Guy says no glue

Must get out more [big grin]

John


Edit, Sorry Guy you said chain mortiser, not chain saw, bit over kill but JMB does like his tools [big grin]


Yes! You guys should not mentioned power tools to me!  Sayin I need this type of powertool to do the job makes me wanna buy it! Cant help my self! Dangerous man just mention hand tools ill be okay not a hand tool type of person so no risk of me going out to buy one unless I have no choice! lol

Well I would like to be able to do everything at home and just turn up with two large ready made support which I can simply slide under into position really sounds easy but I know it wont be lol!



JMB
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Offline jmbfestool

  • Posts: 6619
Re: Church Entrance
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2011, 05:39 PM »
Well, repair or replace or looks like a very cool project, one that i would love to get my teeth into.  Just dont price it too cheap.  Time can run away on you on a job like this.

I think if you listen to what John & Guy tell you then you wont go far wrong.

Hope you got flowers to go with that dinner  ;)

Woodguy.


Haahaa! No I aint gotta save money for Festool tools  [tongue]  paid for the Dinner like! lol   I wont price it to cheap!  Its near where I live so I would of liked it to be completely replaced as it will be seen by every one around my area get me know innit!  The guy I think who recommended me told the Vicar to let me know I can use his work shop to make the stuff if I wanted!  So thats sound! going to go round his place to see what he thinks and says about this job and to say thank you for offering me to let me use his work shop!

JMB
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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Church Entrance
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2011, 05:49 PM »
I have time now! I have got rid of my missus now! Shes all full up and tired! lol  So I have just done  a quick drawing on sketch up!

I had a close look and from what I can see I think thats how the vertical is joined to the horizontal piece. 

The lower section which I have done in a different colour greenish is the section I want to replace and told the Vicar and he said thats fine. 

The upper part is what I wanna leave alone and I have done that in the brownish colour.  As you can see the joint is out of proportion the upright has a large notch remove and not much timber left!  I was thinkin/Hoping where I have in the drawing below changed from greenish to brownish I could cut and join my new section! The curve I was hoping would help to support the top section by not allow ing it to tip!  Maybe putting a loose tenon or something between the new vertical and the old horizontal?  I say a loose is cus I dont know how easy it will be to lift the top section to get it over a normal tenon. 

Any opinions advice tips are very welcome! I am only learning! I have worked with oak and done abit of bashing but for a company which always seems to be easier as they do the thinking for ya! lol

31972-0

31974-1

31976-2


This image shows n idea I have to prolong to prevent future rotting.  I was thinking I could fold lead round underneath into the groove then lead mate or do something else lol? dont know!
31978-3

JMB
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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Church Entrance
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2011, 06:00 PM »
Close up of current joint!

31980-0
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Offline jmbfestool

  • Posts: 6619
Re: Church Entrance
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2011, 06:13 PM »
JMB

Awesome job! I have done work for churches in the past and despite the fact that the Church of England is the biggest landowner in the UK and richer than the Monarchy they are as tight as a ducks anus!

My experience is that if the cost is under £1000 the local church has to raise the funds by church bazaars, coffee mornings, etc, but if over that amount the quote has to go off to the local Diocese where the Arch Bishop says yes or no.

As regards the rebuild whilst a total replacement would be preferable that is highly unlikely and you will have to do the rotten sections. Dont try and scarve into a rotten section, replace the lot.

The construction detail that Windmill man has given you is spot on and you could get a book on timber framing from Amazon that can give you some tips on chopping out big joints. A Makita chain morticer will pay for itself very quickly.

You will need some big augur bits, long oak dowels, and a bloody BIG mallet. With Green Oak dont try and glue anything it moves like anything and the dowels hold it together.

Site chippy into Oak mastercrafstman in one job!!  [big grin] [big grin]


 [tongue] Haha! Ill try my best some day some day I hope ill become a workshop butcher!lol

The Vicar never even said n e thing bout price or n e thing just said no rush you can come up as much as you like take measurements and stuff just make sure when you start the job you do it so people can still come and go and if you can do as much as possible in work shop so your spend less time on the job.  props hope I wont charge him haaha Im just taking it he wants a price ill work it out best I can and give it him and see if its a jee or nee!


JMB
JMB
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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Church Entrance
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2011, 07:06 PM »
Another Idea maybe?

Might of noticed im trying to avoid the scarf joint haahaha!! lol

32010-0

32012-1

32014-2

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Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Church Entrance
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2011, 07:55 PM »
I hope that you get this project JMB!

To me this thread is a perfect example of what makes this place so different and so interesting.

What you guys NRINA (Not Residing In North America) do is so different due to the age of the buildings you work with.

Keep Posting, PLEASE!   [thumbs up] [thumbs up] [thumbs up]


Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3521
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Church Entrance
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2011, 10:47 PM »

Might of noticed im trying to avoid the scarf joint haahaha!! lol

Why? It would be great to see you do the scarf joint.

I like the drawings BTW. Explains what you are trying to do quite effectively...although it's scaring me that I am starting to understand the JMB speak.

It looks like if there ever was a stiff wind, that joint you are planning would be the weakest part of the structure.
Here's a link to a Gary Katz document explaining the use of self healing membrane and "home slicker" three dimensional nylon membrane to keep a column wrap trapping water. Here's the link http://www.garymkatz.com/TrimTechniques/column_wrap.html.
Tim
Tim

Offline Ken Nagrod

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Re: Church Entrance
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2011, 11:08 PM »
JMB,

An ice and water shield or even better a door and window flashing like a Vycor product applied to the underside of the beams where they'd touch the base is step one.  The other preventive measure is to reshape the cement the wood structure rests on so that the water sheds away from the wood, pitched all the way around where the wood structure rests on the cement piers.