Author Topic: Face frame question  (Read 4260 times)

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Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3289
Face frame question
« on: April 16, 2017, 12:53 PM »
I got a commission to build an entertainment center, which essentially consists of three base-style cabinets joined together.  The designer has something very particular in mind, however, and originally sketched out a set of plans that involved no face frame, and instead, called for a lot of mitered corners at the front to avoid showing seams.  For the sake of structural integrity, and to make more efficient use of the material (the original plans called for sides that are double-thick ply), I've convinced him to modify the design so we can do a faceframe instead.  But he has a residual concern about the seam between the faceframe and the side of the cabinet showing, and was wondering if I could join the face frame to the sides with a miter joint (the sides are a frame and panel construction, but with the frame overlaying the plywood backing rather than the panel sitting inside a dado in the frame).

I'm worried this is overly complex (I would have to pre-miter the frame of the cabinet side wall before laying it on the plywood panel, and line it up perfectly so it could form a tight joint with the face frame), and instead, I can still do a 90 degree butt joint between the face frame and the sides, but plan the grain in such a way so that both the side grain of the face frame and the face grain of the sides are showing a rift cut at the point where they meet (with the grain direction at approximately 45 degrees) -- also take care to cut from the same board so there's no significant color variation (it will be getting a dark brown stain in any case).  Then it's just a question of a clean cut and proper clamping when I install the face frame so that there's no gaps in the joint.

Or are there options I'm not considering?  I've attached a jpeg of the first page of the plans -- the top view showing what was initially proposed is in the lower left. 
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • DX 93 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

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Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3289
Re: Face frame question
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2017, 12:56 PM »
Sorry - here's a jpeg of the design so you don't have to download a PDF

« Last Edit: April 16, 2017, 01:03 PM by Edward A Reno III »
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • DX 93 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline Twoodman66

  • Posts: 56
Re: Face frame question
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2017, 08:03 PM »
Why not just panel the side as well. This way it's just a miter of the face frame. 

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3289
Re: Face frame question
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2017, 07:29 AM »
At the joint where the side meets the front, the sides will be 1 1/2" thick (3/4" ply plus 3/4" hardwood frame stile), but the face frame 1".  The workaround I thought of -- but this is where the complexity gets introduced -- is to make the hardwood frame members on the cabinet sides 1". 
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • DX 93 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Face frame question
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2017, 09:08 AM »
Will this have a lot of weight on it?  Curious as to why frameless would be bad. Maybe a 3/4" back and top or double top to add stiffness? I know it's not the same as a face frame but it should do the trick.

Finished or painted?

I think joining the frame to the side with a miter is going to be troublesome. 

If frameless, I wonder if that new table saw plywood miter blade would allow you to fold the plywood corners?

Seth
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 09:10 AM by SRSemenza »

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3289
Re: Face frame question
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2017, 08:08 AM »
Thanks @SRSemenza That's an interesting suggestion on the ply saw blade -- probably not for this project, though, as I would want to master the tool before employing it on a build.

The first problem that I saw with frameless was that there would be a thickness imbalance in the sides -- assuming I jettison the original design scheme of creating 2" thick sides with its complicated scheme of mitering.  The left side would be 1 1/2" (3/4 ply + 3/4 hardwood frame member), but the right side only 3/4" ply.  I've been thinking it over more, and I'm going to do a test on the original frameless design, except that I will double up the plywood on the right side so that the sides match.  I will then add a hardwood cap along the edge to both sides, which I'm confident I can glue/clamp sufficiently so that there will not be a visible seam.

It will have a dark stain, so there's some wiggle room.

The other reason I was thinking about doing a face frame was to give the units additional stability.  The individual units themselves will not have a top, but there will be a counter stretching the entire length of the unit that the designer is providing.


Will this have a lot of weight on it?  Curious as to why frameless would be bad. Maybe a 3/4" back and top or double top to add stiffness? I know it's not the same as a face frame but it should do the trick.

Finished or painted?

I think joining the frame to the side with a miter is going to be troublesome. 

If frameless, I wonder if that new table saw plywood miter blade would allow you to fold the plywood corners?

Seth
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • DX 93 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5151
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Face frame question
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2017, 08:31 AM »
Looks like all the thickness are a build up.

Lock miters on the corners. Create the corners with a pocket to accept the panel, slide panel in, install trim.

This 7' tall cabinet has 3/4" solid face frame, plywood sides.

Two things make lock miters a success, the Infinity lock miter jig and a thin layer of glue brushed on.

How I did the 7' route, on the panel, frame piece was easy on the CMS.



Tom


Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Face frame question
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2017, 09:30 AM »
Of course. LOck miters!  [doh]

Also even though there is no top (sub-top) in the design maybe the designer would be willing to allow that if going frameless?

Seth

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5151
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Face frame question
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2017, 11:15 AM »
I don't do sub tops, they're bad for solid surface, quartz and stone. I do stretches front and rear.

Top photo is a face frame T&G'd to the side panel.

Tom

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3289
Re: Face frame question
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2017, 08:20 PM »
I ended up going frameless. I used a 3/4 backing for greater stability.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 05:16 PM by Edward A Reno III »
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • DX 93 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/Long-Life Bag • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3