Author Topic: Health and Safety Dust collection  (Read 3557 times)

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Offline #3H

  • Posts: 34
Health and Safety Dust collection
« on: March 14, 2015, 06:19 AM »
I had this article sent to me by a co worker of my wife is always asking about my projects. I was looking at the Supermax 19/39 drum sander and the topic went to dust collection.
This link,     http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/introduction.cfm#history  really  open my eyes what I though I had covered in my shop.  Yes without a doubt the combination of Festool CT and their tools are the best in getting the dust at its source, but what about every thing else that is not . Table saw, sharper, planer, jointer ..... list goes on. I'm  currently using a 3hp Dustboy connected  to two 55gal barrels with an overhead filter bag to the second drum, as well as a Jet overhead room air filtration for my shop (35'x25'x9') . The dustboy is within the shop partial tucked under the stairs.

So what I'm looking to do, shy from moving the DC outside which I really don't want to do, is to add pleated filter elements to the setup. If any is using a DC system that is or has been modified to meet the 1/2 (my goal) micron filtration setup, would be more than helpful if their setup.
a fair line always supersedes a given measurement.

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Offline Greg M

  • Posts: 285
Re: Health and Safety Dust collection
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2015, 09:23 AM »
I recently made some modifications to my dust collection after reading Bill's site.  Keep in mind that he's in really bad health so his information is from a worst case scenario.  I'm not saying that getting down to .5 micron or exhausting outside shouldn't be a goal but it's impractical for a small shop.  I can't exhaust outside because my shop is conditioned, both for comfort and for humidity control.

I started looking for a middle of the road solution that would take into consideration what Bill says but not to the extent that he suggests.  I then found this site.

Between the 2 site I came up with a solution for me.

Increase airflow to my table saw and router
I was using a can lid separator to filter out the large pieces before going into my Harbor Freight 2hp dust collector.  My HF already had a 1 micron filter on it from Wynn.  My duct was 4" metal to both my table saw and router.  I had gates to isolate them but my airflow was always lower then what I thought I should have.
1  I removed the 5" flex from the blower on the HF to the collector and installed 5" metal pipe.  I sealed every joint.  That greatly increased airflow.
2  Separated the piping to the table saw and the router and ran them separately to my HF.  I ran 4" for the router and 5" for the table saw.
3  My can lid separator has only 4" connectors and I didn't want to run the table saw straight into the HF (5") so I bought a super dust deputy.  I reduced the output of the SDD to 5" and hard piped it into the HF sealing every joint.  I put a 20 gal metal trash can under the SDD.  On the input side of the SDD (5" input) I've got adapters to connect the 4" pipe for the router, 5" pipe for the table saw or the 4" pipe that goes to the can lid separator that I still use for the jointer and plainer.  The jointer and plainer go through the separator, SDD and then the HF.  Sure I loose airflow like that but the run is very short.

I now have a lot of airflow at both the router and table saw.  On the table saw (SawStop) I have the overarm dust collection but it's not connected to the 5" pipe that goes to the HF dust collector.  I found it doesn't provide enough suction the way that SawStop says to hook it up.  So I put one of my Festool CT's under the table saw and hooked it to the overarm.  I now get hardly any chips and no dust when using the table saw.

On the router I took a wye and reduced the 4" to two 2.5" hoses.  One for under the table and one for over the table.  I still get chips and dust from the router but considerably less then before.

I've got 2 Rikon 1 micron air filters running and most of the rest of the tools I use are Festool connected to CT's.  The bandsaw is connected to a dust vac with a Hepa filter.

Sure my filters are 1 micron but once they've been seasoned they filter smaller particles.  My next step is to buy a particle meter so I can see how close I am to keeping the particle count down.  If I find I need to filter even more then my next step might be to get a .5 micron filter from Wynn and duct the exhaust from my 2 air cleaners trough that filter.

Offline jmarkflesher

  • Posts: 248
  • Scoot
Re: Health and Safety Dust collection
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2015, 06:24 PM »
Overboard on sealing all joints but you do it once.   MARK
DEC 21st, 2012 TIC TIC TIC   WAS A DUD

Offline rst

  • Posts: 1833
Re: Health and Safety Dust collection
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2015, 06:29 PM »
I second what Greg M did for over saw blade collection, I too use a separate vac for that and get virtually no dust.  I also have 4" brush on the four sides of my self made guard to help contain the pressure.

Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 196
Re: Health and Safety Dust collection
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2015, 12:43 AM »
The shop I work in has a large grizzly two bag system for the jointer, planer, and thickness sander. Only wood goes through them, but my understanding is that the filtration on them isn't to high? I'm worried about my intake of the dust. My boogers are nasty like everyday! I hate that my nose is always plugged. Despite that everytime we mill out a kitchen's worth of drawers and some parts, we have to empty like 150-180gallons of collection from that, and another 20-50gallons from the smaller table saw, we've got PLENTY of dust around the shop. The chopsaw has no collection. Perhaps tighter seals, less flex tubing, gentle bends, etc, would help a lot, but I'm worried about the small dust. Should I be? I'm not sure how we could vent outside, at all, given the building is all block built.

Offline Greg M

  • Posts: 285
Re: Health and Safety Dust collection
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2015, 08:16 AM »
The shop I work in has a large grizzly two bag system for the jointer, planer, and thickness sander. Only wood goes through them, but my understanding is that the filtration on them isn't to high? I'm worried about my intake of the dust. My boogers are nasty like everyday! I hate that my nose is always plugged. Despite that everytime we mill out a kitchen's worth of drawers and some parts, we have to empty like 150-180gallons of collection from that, and another 20-50gallons from the smaller table saw, we've got PLENTY of dust around the shop. The chopsaw has no collection. Perhaps tighter seals, less flex tubing, gentle bends, etc, would help a lot, but I'm worried about the small dust. Should I be? I'm not sure how we could vent outside, at all, given the building is all block built.

I'm not an expert, you really need to read through Bill Pentz's site.  It'll be a long read but this is about your health later in life.

Dust collectors that use those 5 micron bags catch the chips and large dust but only help to circulate the harmful dust.  The harmful dust isn't the stuff that clogs up your nose as much as the smaller dust that your nose can't filter out of the air.  It's those sub-micron particles that get caught in your lungs that your body has a real hard time getting rid of.

If you read Bill's site you'll understand that the shop you work in is a real health hazard.

What I've done in my shop still falls short of what needs to be done.  Hopefully later this year I'm going to get a particle meter so that I can know how unhealthy my shop air still is.  There is less dust in my shop but I'm not worried about the large dust that's easy to see.  I'm concerned about the small dust that is difficult to see or that I can't see.  I've got a feeling that I'm going to have to install a HEPA system for cleaning the air.

As good as Festool's dust collection system is it still creates dust that enters the air.  However, their system is probably the best there is at catching as much dust as possible at the tool.  I use my modified SawStop and Festool tools as much as possible because they all have excellent dust collection.

Speaking for myself, after reading through Bill's site, if I was working in your shop I'd start wearing a respirator all the time at work while looking for another job.

I'm told that the RZ Mask is a comfortable mask to wear for prolonged periods and filters very well although I'm not sure how it would stand up under your working conditions.

Venting outside is easy (even through a block wall) but it's only useful if the dust collection at the machine is greatly improved.  Venting outside is only a part of the solution.

Offline Hunter

  • Posts: 27
Re: Health and Safety Dust collection
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2015, 09:24 AM »
As others have pointed out: If you can see, feel, or even smell dust in the shop then that means that (in this case wood) particles are going into your lungs and it takes years (if ever) to expel them. So basically: If you can smell the "lovely wood smell" of the workshop, then it's hurting you to some degree... And when you spend all day every day in it then that effect is massively amplified.  Mr Pentz has done a _lot_ of research on it and also is living proof of the damage that can be done.

Wear a good mask and you won't have worry about lung problems later. I used to be a paramedic and I can tell you that you really don't want to deal with that stuff down the road. You can avoid it all with a (good) simple mask.  The Wood Whisperer has a couple videos/blog entries about choosing and fitting a good one.  I went with the one he recommended and it's really comfortable.  I also use it for spreading lime in the yard, mowing, and blowing the gravel driveway... dust is dust and it's all bad.

Another note: the fitting is really important.  I learned how to do it right through fire/rescue training, but you should at least watch his video (or maybe there are better ones) on fitting.  Short version, if you can cover in inlets and breath in successfully then the mask isn't helping.  The air would rather come in the easiest way possible and you need a snug fit all the way around to ensure that the only way in is through the filter.  This is no joke and precludes most beards for a good reason unless you are using a large powered ventilation hood.

Good luck =)
TS-55R, D-500, OF-1400, LR-32, CSX, MFT/3, CT-36, 3000 rail

Offline rst

  • Posts: 1833
Re: Health and Safety Dust collection
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2015, 10:31 AM »
I have used the Trend Air Pro since my eyes became sensitive to wood dust, it combines a powered filtering system with a full face shield.

Offline Dane

  • Posts: 337
Re: Health and Safety Dust collection
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2015, 03:24 PM »
Just a heads up on the RZ Mask- those don't appear to be rated and there is not info on the website as to the level of filtration on the .pdf that you can download on the site it says:

"The RZ Mask is not NIOSH approved and will not protect from hazardous toxins. The Active Carbon Filter will only provide protection if a full seal can be formed with
the face. This mask should only be used for limited air ltering needs including o road sports, farming, light construction involving sweeping, cleaning, and mowing."

So, I'm not sure I trust it for woodworking...

Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 196
Re: Health and Safety Dust collection
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2015, 07:57 PM »
The Trend Air Pro looks great...ly out of my budget! I know my health is important but I don't make much! The Wood Whisper's 3M 7500 is reasonable (for me, I'd love the Trend unit). I'm not looking forward to wearing it 8 hours most days though...

RZ mask filter is "n99" I dunno if that's any good?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 08:13 PM by JeremyH. »

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1786
Re: Health and Safety Dust collection
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2015, 10:34 PM »
The Trend Air Pro looks great...ly out of my budget! I know my health is important but I don't make much! The Wood Whisper's 3M 7500 is reasonable (for me, I'd love the Trend unit). I'm not looking forward to wearing it 8 hours most days though...

RZ mask filter is "n99" I dunno if that's any good?

The Trend Airshield Pro is good except I'm now going to be on my third inside headband. They have replaced them free, but, for me, they haven't lasted very long. They seem to be made from very cheap and weak plastic. I have asked to see if there is something i can do to avoid breaking them, but have not gotten an answer. Otherwise it does a great job and, while it seems like it would be hard to wear for longer periods, you really don't feel it while you're working.
Randy

Offline Brent Taylor

  • Posts: 471
Re: Health and Safety Dust collection
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2015, 08:44 AM »
I build super insulated homes where I need to bring condition air into the building through an air to air exchanger. These units take outside air into the unit and exchange the btu's of the internal air to bring in fresh air in the home without losing energy.  This system maybe away to help with shops that are inside homes  like Greg M's.

Offline SittingElf

  • Posts: 1374
  • 66 Systainers and rising! YIKES!
Re: Health and Safety Dust collection
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2015, 08:50 AM »
I wear my Trend religiously whenever I'm working with walnut.  That dust is NASTY!

There are some other exotics that I will use the Trend for, but wearing it for long periods is tiring....and very uncomfortable in high heat/humidity.

Cheers,

Frank
Woodworking is 3% talent and 97% paying attention to the FOG! 

hammerfelderowners.com

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1786
Re: Health and Safety Dust collection
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2015, 06:59 PM »
I wear my Trend religiously whenever I'm working with walnut.  That dust is NASTY!

There are some other exotics that I will use the Trend for, but wearing it for long periods is tiring....and very uncomfortable in high heat/humidity.

Cheers,

Frank

I guess you haven't had the same problems I have had with the head band breaking. I like the Airshielf Pro but it's a problem that mine has broken twice in less than a year.
Randy

Offline jacko9

  • Posts: 2349
Re: Health and Safety Dust collection
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2015, 09:40 PM »
I installed the Oneida V-3000 Cyclone system to my Planer, Jointer, and Table Saw and the nasty clouds of dust have evaporated into the HEPA filter.  The only nagging concern I have is the Table saw where I need to come up with an overhead dust port.  The zero clearance blade insert and cabinet collection takes care of a lot of dust but the overhead collection is definetly going to have to be installed.  My CT22 handles my Festool Power tools and just the sanding alone is worth every penny I spent on Festool. I agree with the dust irritation of walnut, oak, and many other woods that almost had me quit woodworking until I saved enough money to get the Oneida system.

Jack