Author Topic: I need expert advice for small a project.  (Read 18545 times)

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Offline Sometimewoodworker

  • Posts: 688
    • Jerome's  Other work
Re: I need expert advice for small a project.
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2014, 05:20 AM »

~
In a french cleat system there are two parts. one that is point down and the second that is point up.
The one that is point up is screwed into the wall. let's say this is 4" long made out of a bar that was originally 4"x1"x1.25". this one is easily made on a table saw.
The second half of this french cleat I want to make is a groove cut out of the middle of a bar that is 30"x1"x1.25". So 5" of the middle of this bar will have a 45 degree groove cut out of it to engage with the 4" cleat that is on the wall. Making this part of the cleat system is difficult because the groove is in the middle of the bar, not along the entire bar and it is not starting at either end of the bar.


I think that you are trying to overthink this.
1. your wall cleat is shorter than the cleat in the hanging item by about an inch.
2. The 45 degree groove cut out of the hanging item bar will be hidden.
3. There is no significant benefit to having square ends on the hanging item cleat.

Thus using a router table with a 45degree chamfering bit that will leave a rounded end (unless you clean it up for which there is no need) will be the neatest and fastest and has a professional look to it IMHO. You would of course start and stop the cuts in the centre of the bar.
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, HL 850, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/

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Offline MichaelW2014

  • Posts: 276
Re: I need expert advice for small a project.
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2014, 08:52 AM »

~
In a french cleat system there are two parts. one that is point down and the second that is point up.
The one that is point up is screwed into the wall. let's say this is 4" long made out of a bar that was originally 4"x1"x1.25". this one is easily made on a table saw.
The second half of this french cleat I want to make is a groove cut out of the middle of a bar that is 30"x1"x1.25". So 5" of the middle of this bar will have a 45 degree groove cut out of it to engage with the 4" cleat that is on the wall. Making this part of the cleat system is difficult because the groove is in the middle of the bar, not along the entire bar and it is not starting at either end of the bar.


I think that you are trying to overthink this.
1. your wall cleat is shorter than the cleat in the hanging item by about an inch.
2. The 45 degree groove cut out of the hanging item bar will be hidden.
3. There is no significant benefit to having square ends on the hanging item cleat.

Thus using a router table with a 45degree chamfering bit that will leave a rounded end (unless you clean it up for which there is no need) will be the neatest and fastest and has a professional look to it IMHO. You would of course start and stop the cuts in the centre of the bar.

yeah, that would be ideal, but i don't have a routing table. the festool router table looks awesome, but i can't afford it. so i think i am going to do this with hand tools. a nobex manual miter saw and auriou rasps to make the area flat. probably, this will not result in as good of a notch as i would get with a router table, but it should suffice.

i would get a router table by another company if i knew i was buying something that was built to perfection. i don't like buying, nor using, nor knowing i own, poorly made things; it bothers me.

"These saws can chew up lumber like a beaver recovering from a hunger strike."

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 1983
Re: I need expert advice for small a project.
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2014, 11:51 AM »
If you want to "dress up" the wall cleat side, you could add a decretive edge on it with a router.  You can just route that edge and be happy.  I don't know that I would try and make the cleats with hand tools.  If you don't have a nice smooth surface area, you are going to not have a level hang when you are done.  You don't need much and if you don't have any access to even a track saw, I would head to a lumber yard or find a friend (or FOG member) close by that would let you use a track saw to rip a board with a 45 in the middle for the cleat.  Literally would take less than a minute.

Google french cleat if you haven't already and look for examples that you like and post them up here, there is alway more than one way to get this stuff done.

Good luck!
People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Offline ART at WORK

  • Posts: 206
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Re: I need expert advice for small a project.
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2014, 05:45 PM »
I would go with JMB's suggestion as well.
A 45 degree router head is not expensive and standard in most box sets.
The domino is a great joiner for frames. Though a little preicy with the domino box. A great tool to work with.
You would have a hidden cleat on the frame and strong overlaping joints at the corners and in the middle.
Try one and let us know how it turns out.

Ü
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Offline Sometimewoodworker

  • Posts: 688
    • Jerome's  Other work
Re: I need expert advice for small a project.
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2014, 06:51 PM »

~
In a french cleat system there are two parts. one that is point down and the second that is point up.
The one that is point up is screwed into the wall. let's say this is 4" long made out of a bar that was originally 4"x1"x1.25". this one is easily made on a table saw.
The second half of this french cleat I want to make is a groove cut out of the middle of a bar that is 30"x1"x1.25". So 5" of the middle of this bar will have a 45 degree groove cut out of it to engage with the 4" cleat that is on the wall. Making this part of the cleat system is difficult because the groove is in the middle of the bar, not along the entire bar and it is not starting at either end of the bar.


I think that you are trying to overthink this.
1. your wall cleat is shorter than the cleat in the hanging item by about an inch.
2. The 45 degree groove cut out of the hanging item bar will be hidden.
3. There is no significant benefit to having square ends on the hanging item cleat.

Thus using a router table with a 45degree chamfering bit that will leave a rounded end (unless you clean it up for which there is no need) will be the neatest and fastest and has a professional look to it IMHO. You would of course start and stop the cuts in the centre of the bar.

yeah, that would be ideal, but i don't have a routing table. the festool router table looks awesome, but i can't afford it. so i think i am going to do this with hand tools. a nobex manual miter saw and auriou rasps to make the area flat. probably, this will not result in as good of a notch as i would get with a router table, but it should suffice.

i would get a router table by another company if i knew i was buying something that was built to perfection. i don't like buying, nor using, nor knowing i own, poorly made things; it bothers me.


There is no need to buy a router table for this use. It is a simple task to mount a router on a piece of plywood and make a fence.

The simple table will be much more restricted in its usage capabilities than a more complex one, but then your need is simple.

Makers of router tables would have you believe that you need their product, but in many cases you don't. If you frequent any of the router forums you will find that the most frequent advice given is to make your own table. My first one is here http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/sets/72157624105291152/

I am not saying that the router table you buy don't have a place nor am I saying that they aren't useful however for many uses they are over engendered.

For me I have to be more careful with money than time  so I can take the time to make something for less than a 10% of the cost that does 90% of the jobs the good table will do and is much better than a cheap table.
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, HL 850, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/

Offline MichaelW2014

  • Posts: 276
Re: I need expert advice for small a project.
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2014, 09:04 AM »
If you want to "dress up" the wall cleat side, you could add a decretive edge on it with a router.  You can just route that edge and be happy.  I don't know that I would try and make the cleats with hand tools.  If you don't have a nice smooth surface area, you are going to not have a level hang when you are done.  You don't need much and if you don't have any access to even a track saw, I would head to a lumber yard or find a friend (or FOG member) close by that would let you use a track saw to rip a board with a 45 in the middle for the cleat.  Literally would take less than a minute.

Google french cleat if you haven't already and look for examples that you like and post them up here, there is alway more than one way to get this stuff done.

Good luck!

good job, you just planted a big old seed of doubt in my happy conclusion to make the cleats with hand tools. your point is good. french cleats are something that probably should be done with a machine or jig of some sort. dang. i'm not sure what to do. i would go the router table route but i don't know what's good, as far as precision, integration with my festool router, and it must also have excellent dust collection. plus i live in athens greece, so, it's not i can just order something from amazon. i have to order stuff from amazon greece. and the price i pay for festool tools is about 50% more or twice what you guys pay. so it is funny to me when people talk about festool tools being expensive...yes, they really are.

thanks for the advice
"These saws can chew up lumber like a beaver recovering from a hunger strike."

Offline MichaelW2014

  • Posts: 276
Re: I need expert advice for small a project.
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2014, 09:15 AM »
Now I know what the job is I would recommend doing......!


Using a router with a 45degree cutter is the best way to go. You don't need a router table just a router which you said you have festool 1010.  

I would production run a few lengths.  I would run the cutter right through I wouldn't bother doing how you wanted to do them having them set in.

Then to make up the frames you can simply cut mitres and then go buy a domino for the joints.

For your cross members you can just stick a 45dregee angle on them then use domino or screws to fix them to the pre routered bevel.


Doing it this way you can set your router up just run as many lengths of timber you think you need with a 45 angle on and then as and when needed just chop saw them to length for your variable size picture frames.





sounds good. but i don't understand how to use the router without a track or a table. are you saying i just need a router track to do the 45degree angle cut?

the domino would probably be great for the mitered corners. when i screw them together the screws make the wood shift. this is a considerable problem that keeps me from achieving perfection. in pro frame shops they have big old machines just for this process of connecting the corners. check this thing out--i want one!
http://www.lionpic.co.uk/product/Hoffmann-MU-2P-Semi-Auto-Corner-Routing---Joining-System,35333,0.aspx

the domino things are kind of big though. i wonder if they would be too big for the small piece of wood i am connecting. remember the thickness of the wood bars is only 1"x1.25". Do you still recommend the domino given this situation? I have bessey corner clamps for putting together the bars. would i be able to use the domino while the bars are set in the clamps?
These ones:


I do have a local wood supplier who has a table saw. I could ask him to cut the notches for me. But that would be bit of a hassle, especially on the larger beams I will be using for larger, paintings, all the way up to 11feet.

thanks for taking the time!
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 09:19 AM by MichaelW2014 »
"These saws can chew up lumber like a beaver recovering from a hunger strike."

Offline MichaelW2014

  • Posts: 276
Re: I need expert advice for small a project.
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2014, 09:18 AM »

~
In a french cleat system there are two parts. one that is point down and the second that is point up.
The one that is point up is screwed into the wall. let's say this is 4" long made out of a bar that was originally 4"x1"x1.25". this one is easily made on a table saw.
The second half of this french cleat I want to make is a groove cut out of the middle of a bar that is 30"x1"x1.25". So 5" of the middle of this bar will have a 45 degree groove cut out of it to engage with the 4" cleat that is on the wall. Making this part of the cleat system is difficult because the groove is in the middle of the bar, not along the entire bar and it is not starting at either end of the bar.



I think that you are trying to overthink this.
1. your wall cleat is shorter than the cleat in the hanging item by about an inch.
2. The 45 degree groove cut out of the hanging item bar will be hidden.
3. There is no significant benefit to having square ends on the hanging item cleat.

Thus using a router table with a 45degree chamfering bit that will leave a rounded end (unless you clean it up for which there is no need) will be the neatest and fastest and has a professional look to it IMHO. You would of course start and stop the cuts in the centre of the bar.

yeah, that would be ideal, but i don't have a routing table. the festool router table looks awesome, but i can't afford it. so i think i am going to do this with hand tools. a nobex manual miter saw and auriou rasps to make the area flat. probably, this will not result in as good of a notch as i would get with a router table, but it should suffice.

i would get a router table by another company if i knew i was buying something that was built to perfection. i don't like buying, nor using, nor knowing i own, poorly made things; it bothers me.


There is no need to buy a router table for this use. It is a simple task to mount a router on a piece of plywood and make a fence.

The simple table will be much more restricted in its usage capabilities than a more complex one, but then your need is simple.

Makers of router tables would have you believe that you need their product, but in many cases you don't. If you frequent any of the router forums you will find that the most frequent advice given is to make your own table. My first one is here http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/sets/72157624105291152/

I am not saying that the router table you buy don't have a place nor am I saying that they aren't useful however for many uses they are over engendered.

For me I have to be more careful with money than time  so I can take the time to make something for less than a 10% of the cost that does 90% of the jobs the good table will do and is much better than a cheap table.

hmm, i can't really imagine how I would attach the router to a piece of plywood and make a fence. please do explain this. I am eager to figure this out! thanks
"These saws can chew up lumber like a beaver recovering from a hunger strike."

Offline neilc

  • Posts: 2470
Re: I need expert advice for small a project.
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2014, 09:32 AM »
Have you considered just using dominoes instead of the French cleat?  Make your horizontal bar with a couple of oversized domino mortises.  Use two smaller dominoes in the wall attacked piece to make it easy to attach and remove the painting.

All right angles with no need for the routed angles, and the Domino can be used for frame assembly as well.

Neil

Offline MichaelW2014

  • Posts: 276
Re: I need expert advice for small a project.
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2014, 10:26 AM »
Have you considered just using dominoes instead of the French cleat?  Make your horizontal bar with a couple of oversized domino mortises.  Use two smaller dominoes in the wall attacked piece to make it easy to attach and remove the painting.

All right angles with no need for the routed angles, and the Domino can be used for frame assembly as well.

Neil
i like the idea, but it is problematic. the dominos in the wall would have to perfectly lined up, which is not easy to do. plus they would leave huge holes in the wall. often my paintings are in exhibitions that last one month. so there would be more repair work after each show. also, sometimes even the best installer hangs a painting crooked, this would add to the time it takes to install again. also, many walls are made using sheetrock, which would not support the domino.
"These saws can chew up lumber like a beaver recovering from a hunger strike."

Offline MichaelW2014

  • Posts: 276
Re: I need expert advice for small a project.
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2014, 10:34 AM »

~
In a french cleat system there are two parts. one that is point down and the second that is point up.
The one that is point up is screwed into the wall. let's say this is 4" long made out of a bar that was originally 4"x1"x1.25". this one is easily made on a table saw.
The second half of this french cleat I want to make is a groove cut out of the middle of a bar that is 30"x1"x1.25". So 5" of the middle of this bar will have a 45 degree groove cut out of it to engage with the 4" cleat that is on the wall. Making this part of the cleat system is difficult because the groove is in the middle of the bar, not along the entire bar and it is not starting at either end of the bar.


I think that you are trying to overthink this.
1. your wall cleat is shorter than the cleat in the hanging item by about an inch.
2. The 45 degree groove cut out of the hanging item bar will be hidden.
3. There is no significant benefit to having square ends on the hanging item cleat.

Thus using a router table with a 45degree chamfering bit that will leave a rounded end (unless you clean it up for which there is no need) will be the neatest and fastest and has a professional look to it IMHO. You would of course start and stop the cuts in the centre of the bar.

yeah, that would be ideal, but i don't have a routing table. the festool router table looks awesome, but i can't afford it. so i think i am going to do this with hand tools. a nobex manual miter saw and auriou rasps to make the area flat. probably, this will not result in as good of a notch as i would get with a router table, but it should suffice.

i would get a router table by another company if i knew i was buying something that was built to perfection. i don't like buying, nor using, nor knowing i own, poorly made things; it bothers me.


There is no need to buy a router table for this use. It is a simple task to mount a router on a piece of plywood and make a fence.

The simple table will be much more restricted in its usage capabilities than a more complex one, but then your need is simple.

Makers of router tables would have you believe that you need their product, but in many cases you don't. If you frequent any of the router forums you will find that the most frequent advice given is to make your own table. My first one is here http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/sets/72157624105291152/

I am not saying that the router table you buy don't have a place nor am I saying that they aren't useful however for many uses they are over engendered.

For me I have to be more careful with money than time  so I can take the time to make something for less than a 10% of the cost that does 90% of the jobs the good table will do and is much better than a cheap table.

btw, that looks live a very nice router table. i like the finish too.

isn't there a router track that i can clamp to my table and hook my 1010 into in order to do this job?  attached here is a picture of the router bit i am interested in (it looks sweet).

http://www.bairdbrothers.com/Whiteside-Machine-b2305b-45176-Chamfer-Router-Bit-12-Shank-P4943.aspx
"These saws can chew up lumber like a beaver recovering from a hunger strike."

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 1983
Re: I need expert advice for small a project.
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2014, 11:12 AM »
Can't go wrong with Whiteside... I have a good amount of their bits... top shelf!

You can absolutely get a rail, rail clamps and other components for guided routing.  If you get any bit with a bearing, you won't need it though.  You will have enough guidance with the bearing for the application you are mentioning.

By the way, the bit you sent was a .5" collet.  Your 1010 doesn't have that size, so you would need a 8mm or ¼"...

cheers
People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Offline festoolviking

  • Posts: 361
Re: I need expert advice for small a project.
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2014, 12:35 PM »
Hi Michael

To make things simple without too many words I took the time to make a jig for your need. Feel free to use and improve my idea:

The jig:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7dw9selq6ai58zj/Photo%202014-01-05%2018%2021%2023.jpg

Setup:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gfwxuis8vbz8p2l/Photo%202014-01-05%2018%2023%2040.jpg

Router 1010 with copy-ring and straight bit:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nyz2h4ch4b2se3o/Photo%202014-01-05%2018%2024%2014.jpg

Piece still in jig after routing:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mvxw4luv3ej7x6d/Photo%202014-01-05%2018%2026%2014.jpg

Result and jig from below:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6okpmwsjqtawsb3/Photo%202014-01-05%2018%2026%2036.jpg

Festoolviking
Festoolviking

Offline neilc

  • Posts: 2470
Re: I need expert advice for small a project.
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2014, 01:02 PM »
Have you considered just using dominoes instead of the French cleat?  Make your horizontal bar with a couple of oversized domino mortises.  Use two smaller dominoes in the wall attacked piece to make it easy to attach and remove the painting.

All right angles with no need for the routed angles, and the Domino can be used for frame assembly as well.

Neil
i like the idea, but it is problematic. the dominos in the wall would have to perfectly lined up, which is not easy to do. plus they would leave huge holes in the wall. often my paintings are in exhibitions that last one month. so there would be more repair work after each show. also, sometimes even the best installer hangs a painting crooked, this would add to the time it takes to install again. also, many walls are made using sheetrock, which would not support the domino.

Let me be a little clearer.  The dominos would not go into the wall, but into the cleat that attaches to the wall and stick up from that piece.  The frame of the art piece would have domino holes slightly larger to receive the dominos when hanging the piece.  It accomplishes the same thing as a french cleat with two pieces connected by dominos rather than 45 degree angles.

Alternatively and more simply, you could just do a tongue and groove with a slot cutter on your router.  Clamp the piece and route a groove of 4 or 6 or 12 inches long midway in the 1" side of the 1 x 1.25 piece.  Do multiple if needed depending on the size of your painting.  Then create blocks that have a tongue across them that attaches to the wall.  These could be the female side of the piece and you could mill them and cut to size depending on how many you need to hang a particular size painting.  Simple and relatively elegant and you can use the router you already own to make the entire piece.

neil
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 01:04 PM by neilc »

Offline Sometimewoodworker

  • Posts: 688
    • Jerome's  Other work
Re: I need expert advice for small a project.
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2014, 07:31 PM »

~
In a french cleat system there are two parts. one that is point down and the second that is point up.
The one that is point up is screwed into the wall. let's say this is 4" long made out of a bar that was originally 4"x1"x1.25". this one is easily made on a table saw.
The second half of this french cleat I want to make is a groove cut out of the middle of a bar that is 30"x1"x1.25". So 5" of the middle of this bar will have a 45 degree groove cut out of it to engage with the 4" cleat that is on the wall. Making this part of the cleat system is difficult because the groove is in the middle of the bar, not along the entire bar and it is not starting at either end of the bar.



I think that you are trying to overthink this.
1. your wall cleat is shorter than the cleat in the hanging item by about an inch.
2. The 45 degree groove cut out of the hanging item bar will be hidden.
3. There is no significant benefit to having square ends on the hanging item cleat.

Thus using a router table with a 45degree chamfering bit that will leave a rounded end (unless you clean it up for which there is no need) will be the neatest and fastest and has a professional look to it IMHO. You would of course start and stop the cuts in the centre of the bar.

yeah, that would be ideal, but i don't have a routing table. the festool router table looks awesome, but i can't afford it. so i think i am going to do this with hand tools. a nobex manual miter saw and auriou rasps to make the area flat. probably, this will not result in as good of a notch as i would get with a router table, but it should suffice.

i would get a router table by another company if i knew i was buying something that was built to perfection. i don't like buying, nor using, nor knowing i own, poorly made things; it bothers me.


There is no need to buy a router table for this use. It is a simple task to mount a router on a piece of plywood and make a fence.

The simple table will be much more restricted in its usage capabilities than a more complex one, but then your need is simple.

Makers of router tables would have you believe that you need their product, but in many cases you don't. If you frequent any of the router forums you will find that the most frequent advice given is to make your own table. My first one is here http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/sets/72157624105291152/

I am not saying that the router table you buy don't have a place nor am I saying that they aren't useful however for many uses they are over engendered.

For me I have to be more careful with money than time  so I can take the time to make something for less than a 10% of the cost that does 90% of the jobs the good table will do and is much better than a cheap table.

hmm, i can't really imagine how I would attach the router to a piece of plywood and make a fence. please do explain this. I am eager to figure this out! thanks

I think that the jig that has been posted may well do what you want.

The way to attach the router to the plywood is to unscrew the base plate, use the plate for a template to mark out the screw holes, then get some machine screws that are longer and use those mounting holes.

Here are a couple of examples made by a master of improvisation (regrettably deceased now) they may have more features than you need 
http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10671&highlight=

http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17337&highlight=

Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, HL 850, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/

Offline MichaelW2014

  • Posts: 276
Re: I need expert advice for small a project.
« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2014, 08:45 AM »
Can't go wrong with Whiteside... I have a good amount of their bits... top shelf!

You can absolutely get a rail, rail clamps and other components for guided routing.  If you get any bit with a bearing, you won't need it though.  You will have enough guidance with the bearing for the application you are mentioning.

By the way, the bit you sent was a .5" collet.  Your 1010 doesn't have that size, so you would need a 8mm or ¼"...

cheers



i thought the router is 1/4th. i just got it a few days ago; it was shipped to my place in athens, greece from amazon germany. the router has a strange collet size. it is slightly large than 1/4". it's some funky european size. so now i have to track down a true 1/4" collet. festool sells different collet sizes here in europe so i can switch it out for the 1/4". whiteside router bits are ridiculously expensive in europe. see here: http://www.amazon.co.uk/ROUTER-BIT-CHAMFER-45-SHANK/dp/B00FS4GXUE/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1389015693&sr=8-2&keywords=whiteside+chamfer+bit

that is three times as much as I would pay in the US via amazon, including shipping fee. like i said, prices in europe for quality tools are disturbing. festool is generally 50% to 100% higher than the prices in the US.

yeah, so, the answer is simple. i will just get some chamfering bits to do the job. hopefully the 1/4" shank bits will do the trick. if not, i might have to get another router, which is something i really don't want to do.

thanks again
"These saws can chew up lumber like a beaver recovering from a hunger strike."

Offline MichaelW2014

  • Posts: 276
Re: I need expert advice for small a project.
« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2014, 08:49 AM »
Hi Michael

To make things simple without too many words I took the time to make a jig for your need. Feel free to use and improve my idea:

The jig:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7dw9selq6ai58zj/Photo%202014-01-05%2018%2021%2023.jpg

Setup:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gfwxuis8vbz8p2l/Photo%202014-01-05%2018%2023%2040.jpg

Router 1010 with copy-ring and straight bit:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nyz2h4ch4b2se3o/Photo%202014-01-05%2018%2024%2014.jpg

Piece still in jig after routing:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mvxw4luv3ej7x6d/Photo%202014-01-05%2018%2026%2014.jpg

Result and jig from below:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6okpmwsjqtawsb3/Photo%202014-01-05%2018%2026%2036.jpg

Festoolviking

woah, that's excellent. thank you so much. would you mind demonstrating it on a bar of wood that is 1"x1.5" or 1"x2.5"? or just any bar you have lying around that is in this neighborhood. i would greatly appreciate it. i'm embarrassed for being such a slow learner here.
"These saws can chew up lumber like a beaver recovering from a hunger strike."

Offline MichaelW2014

  • Posts: 276
Re: I need expert advice for small a project.
« Reply #47 on: January 06, 2014, 08:53 AM »
Have you considered just using dominoes instead of the French cleat?  Make your horizontal bar with a couple of oversized domino mortises.  Use two smaller dominoes in the wall attacked piece to make it easy to attach and remove the painting.

All right angles with no need for the routed angles, and the Domino can be used for frame assembly as well.

Neil
i like the idea, but it is problematic. the dominos in the wall would have to perfectly lined up, which is not easy to do. plus they would leave huge holes in the wall. often my paintings are in exhibitions that last one month. so there would be more repair work after each show. also, sometimes even the best installer hangs a painting crooked, this would add to the time it takes to install again. also, many walls are made using sheetrock, which would not support the domino.

Let me be a little clearer.  The dominos would not go into the wall, but into the cleat that attaches to the wall and stick up from that piece.  The frame of the art piece would have domino holes slightly larger to receive the dominos when hanging the piece.  It accomplishes the same thing as a french cleat with two pieces connected by dominos rather than 45 degree angles.

Alternatively and more simply, you could just do a tongue and groove with a slot cutter on your router.  Clamp the piece and route a groove of 4 or 6 or 12 inches long midway in the 1" side of the 1 x 1.25 piece.  Do multiple if needed depending on the size of your painting.  Then create blocks that have a tongue across them that attaches to the wall.  These could be the female side of the piece and you could mill them and cut to size depending on how many you need to hang a particular size painting.  Simple and relatively elegant and you can use the router you already own to make the entire piece.

neil

oh, i see. yeah, that would be a good system.

yeah, i thought about just doing a tongue and groove instead of a 45^ but the french cleat system is widely used in the art world, so really i am only worried about putting my half of the system into my painting. the person who hangs it is responsible for the second half, generally.

i was going to just do a tongue and groove type of system, and i have seen it one an artwork before. it looks great.

thanks
"These saws can chew up lumber like a beaver recovering from a hunger strike."

Offline MichaelW2014

  • Posts: 276
Re: I need expert advice for small a project.
« Reply #48 on: January 06, 2014, 09:00 AM »

~
In a french cleat system there are two parts. one that is point down and the second that is point up.
The one that is point up is screwed into the wall. let's say this is 4" long made out of a bar that was originally 4"x1"x1.25". this one is easily made on a table saw.
The second half of this french cleat I want to make is a groove cut out of the middle of a bar that is 30"x1"x1.25". So 5" of the middle of this bar will have a 45 degree groove cut out of it to engage with the 4" cleat that is on the wall. Making this part of the cleat system is difficult because the groove is in the middle of the bar, not along the entire bar and it is not starting at either end of the bar.



I think that you are trying to overthink this.
1. your wall cleat is shorter than the cleat in the hanging item by about an inch.
2. The 45 degree groove cut out of the hanging item bar will be hidden.
3. There is no significant benefit to having square ends on the hanging item cleat.

Thus using a router table with a 45degree chamfering bit that will leave a rounded end (unless you clean it up for which there is no need) will be the neatest and fastest and has a professional look to it IMHO. You would of course start and stop the cuts in the centre of the bar.

yeah, that would be ideal, but i don't have a routing table. the festool router table looks awesome, but i can't afford it. so i think i am going to do this with hand tools. a nobex manual miter saw and auriou rasps to make the area flat. probably, this will not result in as good of a notch as i would get with a router table, but it should suffice.

i would get a router table by another company if i knew i was buying something that was built to perfection. i don't like buying, nor using, nor knowing i own, poorly made things; it bothers me.


There is no need to buy a router table for this use. It is a simple task to mount a router on a piece of plywood and make a fence.

The simple table will be much more restricted in its usage capabilities than a more complex one, but then your need is simple.

Makers of router tables would have you believe that you need their product, but in many cases you don't. If you frequent any of the router forums you will find that the most frequent advice given is to make your own table. My first one is here http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/sets/72157624105291152/

I am not saying that the router table you buy don't have a place nor am I saying that they aren't useful however for many uses they are over engendered.

For me I have to be more careful with money than time  so I can take the time to make something for less than a 10% of the cost that does 90% of the jobs the good table will do and is much better than a cheap table.

hmm, i can't really imagine how I would attach the router to a piece of plywood and make a fence. please do explain this. I am eager to figure this out! thanks

I think that the jig that has been posted may well do what you want.

The way to attach the router to the plywood is to unscrew the base plate, use the plate for a template to mark out the screw holes, then get some machine screws that are longer and use those mounting holes.

Here are a couple of examples made by a master of improvisation (regrettably deceased now) they may have more features than you need 
http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10671&highlight=

http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17337&highlight=



yeah, that jig is sweet. it looks like the answer.

i just bought chamfering bits from amazon. i am thinking about cancelling my purchase and making a jig. which would you say is easier and offers better control more options?
chamfering bit or viking jig?

what kind of router bit would i use? one of the tricky parts of that jig is not cutting up the jig when you route out the angle. also, i would have to make a perfect size jig to fit the bars i use. no problem doing that, but there is a correct size and an incorrect size. i mean, one size doesn't fit all, i don't think.

thanks
"These saws can chew up lumber like a beaver recovering from a hunger strike."

Offline MichaelW2014

  • Posts: 276
Re: I need expert advice for small a project.
« Reply #49 on: January 06, 2014, 09:02 AM »
Hi Michael

To make things simple without too many words I took the time to make a jig for your need. Feel free to use and improve my idea:

The jig:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7dw9selq6ai58zj/Photo%202014-01-05%2018%2021%2023.jpg

Setup:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gfwxuis8vbz8p2l/Photo%202014-01-05%2018%2023%2040.jpg

Router 1010 with copy-ring and straight bit:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nyz2h4ch4b2se3o/Photo%202014-01-05%2018%2024%2014.jpg

Piece still in jig after routing:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mvxw4luv3ej7x6d/Photo%202014-01-05%2018%2026%2014.jpg

Result and jig from below:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6okpmwsjqtawsb3/Photo%202014-01-05%2018%2026%2036.jpg

Festoolviking

this jig is great man. do you recommend a certain type of straight bit? your cut is so clean. I want to get the same result. thanks!
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 10:02 AM by MichaelW2014 »
"These saws can chew up lumber like a beaver recovering from a hunger strike."

Offline festoolviking

  • Posts: 361
Re: I need expert advice for small a project.
« Reply #50 on: January 06, 2014, 10:11 AM »
Hi

Glad you liked my jig.  [smile]

The bar in my example is 2"x2". If you want to use a 1,5"x2,5" you might have to make some kind of support/jig to put your piece in before you clamp the jig on to it,  otherwise the "balance" will be offset. Here is an example of clamping it to a 2"x3".

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vlwcxnfvv00feg4/Photo%202014-01-06%2016%2007%2018.jpg

This way you have to work with your router on an angle so maybe the best is to make a support-jig for your specific application.

Festoolviking
Festoolviking

Offline MichaelW2014

  • Posts: 276
Re: I need expert advice for small a project.
« Reply #51 on: January 06, 2014, 12:48 PM »
it's really great. i think your jig is the best answer. i will mostly be using the same size bar so i can make a jig specifically for that size. i haven't fully figured out how to make a jig for a specific size, but i will once i have the actually wood in front of me in a couple of weeks.

i would still like to know what type of bit you used. Is it just a regular straight bit, 1.24" cutting length? whiteside makes them at that size for 1/4" shank collets. i've never used a straight bit before.  

have a good one.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 12:51 PM by MichaelW2014 »
"These saws can chew up lumber like a beaver recovering from a hunger strike."

Offline festoolviking

  • Posts: 361
Re: I need expert advice for small a project.
« Reply #52 on: January 06, 2014, 02:21 PM »
 [smile]

The bit I'm using is a Festool 8mm, 20mm long, 8mm shank (no. 490957). The copy-ring is a 10mm. The jig can be used on pretty much any size wood as long as it's on a 45 degree angle and to a certain width How much material you want to get rid of is controlled by the depth of your plunge. If you want the bevel longer just slide the jig along the piece of wood, or make one to what you need.

Festoolviking
Festoolviking

Offline ART at WORK

  • Posts: 206
  • Buy less Recycle more
Re: I need expert advice for small a project.
« Reply #53 on: January 06, 2014, 03:19 PM »
Great idea festoolviking. A really sweat solution, very repeatable.
Kapex 120 + UG Set, ETS 150/3, DF 500, RO 90, MFT/3, CTL 36 AC, RO 150, 0F 900, OF 2200, T15+3,  CDD 12, TS 55, A5 Router table, First Aid kit, LR 32 SYS, FS 800, FS 1400/2, FS 1400/2 LR32 FS2 3000, CTL Midi + Cleaning Set, Clamps, Parallel Guides, Centrotec drills, Zobo Forstner set and countersinks, Routers, Systainers, Sortainers, Sys Cart, Syslite

Offline MichaelW2014

  • Posts: 276
Re: I need expert advice for small a project.
« Reply #54 on: January 06, 2014, 03:53 PM »
[smile]

The bit I'm using is a Festool 8mm, 20mm long, 8mm shank (no. 490957). The copy-ring is a 10mm. The jig can be used on pretty much any size wood as long as it's on a 45 degree angle and to a certain width How much material you want to get rid of is controlled by the depth of your plunge. If you want the bevel longer just slide the jig along the piece of wood, or make one to what you need.

Festoolviking

yes, i understand. thanks again
"These saws can chew up lumber like a beaver recovering from a hunger strike."

Offline GarryMartin

  • Posts: 1657
Re: I need expert advice for small a project.
« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2014, 05:18 PM »
This seems to be going round in a circle and although the solution posed achieved what Michael originally said he wanted, and then didn't, and then did again, it isn't a French cleat, and I don't think it's what he actually wants. Maybe it's me that is misunderstanding all of the different posts from Michael and his enthusiasm for the jig Festoolviking presented, but how would it work?

[My emphasis in bold, red text]


In a french cleat system there are two parts. one that is point down and the second that is point up.
The one that is point up is screwed into the wall. let's say this is 4" long made out of a bar that was originally 4"x1"x1.25". this one is easily made on a table saw.
The second half of this french cleat I want to make is a groove cut out of the middle of a bar that is 30"x1"x1.25". So 5" of the middle of this bar will have a 45 degree groove cut out of it to engage with the 4" cleat that is on the wall. Making this part of the cleat system is difficult because the groove is in the middle of the bar, not along the entire bar and it is not starting at either end of the bar.


So how would the machined wood presented in Festoolviking's photos connect with the "point up" cleat screwed to the wall?  [scratch chin]

Offline festoolviking

  • Posts: 361
Re: I need expert advice for small a project.
« Reply #56 on: January 06, 2014, 05:48 PM »
This seems to be going round in a circle and although the solution posed achieved what Michael originally said he wanted, and then didn't, and then did again, it isn't a French cleat, and I don't think it's what he actually wants. Maybe it's me that is misunderstanding all of the different posts from Michael and his enthusiasm for the jig Festoolviking presented, but how would it work?

[My emphasis in bold, red text]


In a french cleat system there are two parts. one that is point down and the second that is point up.
The one that is point up is screwed into the wall. let's say this is 4" long made out of a bar that was originally 4"x1"x1.25". this one is easily made on a table saw.
The second half of this french cleat I want to make is a groove cut out of the middle of a bar that is 30"x1"x1.25". So 5" of the middle of this bar will have a 45 degree groove cut out of it to engage with the 4" cleat that is on the wall. Making this part of the cleat system is difficult because the groove is in the middle of the bar, not along the entire bar and it is not starting at either end of the bar.


So how would the machined wood presented in Festoolviking's photos connect with the "point up" cleat screwed to the wall?  [scratch chin]


I think this is what you are referring to achieve as a "french cleat", see pic. There is two ways to do this, either you cut the piece at the table-saw at my pencil-line or you plunge the router deeper to get to the edge of the piece. The face of the piece facing to the left side is the "wall-side". Hope this make sense?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/z217073hv6xdfdw/Photo%202014-01-06%2023%2041%2013.jpg

Festoolviking
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 05:50 PM by festoolviking »
Festoolviking

Offline MichaelW2014

  • Posts: 276
Re: I need expert advice for small a project.
« Reply #57 on: January 07, 2014, 02:44 AM »
This seems to be going round in a circle and although the solution posed achieved what Michael originally said he wanted, and then didn't, and then did again, it isn't a French cleat, and I don't think it's what he actually wants. Maybe it's me that is misunderstanding all of the different posts from Michael and his enthusiasm for the jig Festoolviking presented, but how would it work?

[My emphasis in bold, red text]


In a french cleat system there are two parts. one that is point down and the second that is point up.
The one that is point up is screwed into the wall. let's say this is 4" long made out of a bar that was originally 4"x1"x1.25". this one is easily made on a table saw.
The second half of this french cleat I want to make is a groove cut out of the middle of a bar that is 30"x1"x1.25". So 5" of the middle of this bar will have a 45 degree groove cut out of it to engage with the 4" cleat that is on the wall. Making this part of the cleat system is difficult because the groove is in the middle of the bar, not along the entire bar and it is not starting at either end of the bar.


So how would the machined wood presented in Festoolviking's photos connect with the "point up" cleat screwed to the wall?  [scratch chin]


I think this is what you are referring to achieve as a "french cleat", see pic. There is two ways to do this, either you cut the piece at the table-saw at my pencil-line or you plunge the router deeper to get to the edge of the piece. The face of the piece facing to the left side is the "wall-side". Hope this make sense?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/z217073hv6xdfdw/Photo%202014-01-06%2023%2041%2013.jpg

Festoolviking

Hey, how much space is between your copyring and the bit when installed in the copy ring? should i get a copyring that is as tight around the blade as possible or do i need a gap for dust removal? thanks again
"These saws can chew up lumber like a beaver recovering from a hunger strike."

Offline MichaelW2014

  • Posts: 276
Re: I need expert advice for small a project.
« Reply #58 on: January 07, 2014, 05:45 AM »
This seems to be going round in a circle and although the solution posed achieved what Michael originally said he wanted, and then didn't, and then did again, it isn't a French cleat, and I don't think it's what he actually wants. Maybe it's me that is misunderstanding all of the different posts from Michael and his enthusiasm for the jig Festoolviking presented, but how would it work?

[My emphasis in bold, red text]


In a french cleat system there are two parts. one that is point down and the second that is point up.
The one that is point up is screwed into the wall. let's say this is 4" long made out of a bar that was originally 4"x1"x1.25". this one is easily made on a table saw.
The second half of this french cleat I want to make is a groove cut out of the middle of a bar that is 30"x1"x1.25". So 5" of the middle of this bar will have a 45 degree groove cut out of it to engage with the 4" cleat that is on the wall. Making this part of the cleat system is difficult because the groove is in the middle of the bar, not along the entire bar and it is not starting at either end of the bar.


So how would the machined wood presented in Festoolviking's photos connect with the "point up" cleat screwed to the wall?  [scratch chin]


The machined wood looks different from the french cleats you have probably seen because there is no sharp point. but the machined wood by viking would function as french cleat.
"These saws can chew up lumber like a beaver recovering from a hunger strike."

Offline festoolviking

  • Posts: 361
Re: I need expert advice for small a project.
« Reply #59 on: January 07, 2014, 12:24 PM »
This seems to be going round in a circle and although the solution posed achieved what Michael originally said he wanted, and then didn't, and then did again, it isn't a French cleat, and I don't think it's what he actually wants. Maybe it's me that is misunderstanding all of the different posts from Michael and his enthusiasm for the jig Festoolviking presented, but how would it work?

[My emphasis in bold, red text]


In a french cleat system there are two parts. one that is point down and the second that is point up.
The one that is point up is screwed into the wall. let's say this is 4" long made out of a bar that was originally 4"x1"x1.25". this one is easily made on a table saw.
The second half of this french cleat I want to make is a groove cut out of the middle of a bar that is 30"x1"x1.25". So 5" of the middle of this bar will have a 45 degree groove cut out of it to engage with the 4" cleat that is on the wall. Making this part of the cleat system is difficult because the groove is in the middle of the bar, not along the entire bar and it is not starting at either end of the bar.


So how would the machined wood presented in Festoolviking's photos connect with the "point up" cleat screwed to the wall?  [scratch chin]


I think this is what you are referring to achieve as a "french cleat", see pic. There is two ways to do this, either you cut the piece at the table-saw at my pencil-line or you plunge the router deeper to get to the edge of the piece. The face of the piece facing to the left side is the "wall-side". Hope this make sense?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/z217073hv6xdfdw/Photo%202014-01-06%2023%2041%2013.jpg

Festoolviking

Hey, how much space is between your copyring and the bit when installed in the copy ring? should i get a copyring that is as tight around the blade as possible or do i need a gap for dust removal? thanks again

The copy ring and bit i use got about 1mm (1/24") clearance. As for dust removal it doesn't matter how big gap you got since the Festool copy rings got holes that helps dust removal. If you want better dust removal I would reccomend getting a spiral bit (eg. 490946). I suggest getting a copy ring that suits your bits that you got. The rest is just maths to work out the distance from your jig to where you want the edge of the cleat. In my case it's pretty easy to eyeball the distance since it's only 1mm from my mark. Worth noting is that a smaller bit is easier to plunge and move around in your jig but takes more moving around to get all material off.

Festoolviking
Festoolviking