Author Topic: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad  (Read 40003 times)

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Offline pdlandgang

  • Posts: 56
Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« on: February 27, 2014, 06:35 PM »
I know the topic has come up before here (don't want to re-hash it) but saw this commerical last night.  Have never seen it before.


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Offline copcarcollector

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2014, 06:42 PM »
Pathetic.  >:( [censored]

How much did it cost Saw Stop to make this BS ad?

Offline NYC Tiny Shop

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2014, 07:49 PM »
Wow. [sad]
 If Sawstop really wanted to make a better world for woodworkers, then they would license their technology, at a reasonable rate, to all saw makers.  Avarice is not appealing.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 08:23 AM by NYC Tiny Shop »

Offline rjwz28

  • Posts: 190
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2014, 08:23 PM »
So SawStop is behind this add?  I thought it was an add for a law firm.

Rob

Offline Sparktrician

  • Posts: 3674
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2014, 08:25 PM »
Wow. [sad]
I no longer want a Sawstop, because it would mean supporting this despicable company.  If they really wanted to make a better world for woodworkers, then they would license their technology at a reasonable rate to all saw makers.  Avarice is not appealing.


+1!!!  Steve Gass impresses me as nothing but a greedy ambulance-chaser, and I'll not be one supporting him. 

- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Offline Don T

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2014, 08:27 PM »
No Sawstop for me.  They can kiss my_ _ _.
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Offline jacko9

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2014, 08:28 PM »
Freaking ambulance chasers! 

Jack

Offline RKA

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2014, 08:36 PM »
The same account has a number of similar ads on youtube on other unrelated topics.  Same individual too.  I wouldn't rush to judgement.
-Raj

Offline Sparktrician

  • Posts: 3674
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2014, 08:46 PM »
It wouldn't surprise me if Steve Gass was behind the ads.  May the fleas of a thousand camels infest his armpits and crotch, and may he never have sufficient fingers to scratch where it itches!!! 

 [mad]

- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Offline pdlandgang

  • Posts: 56
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2014, 09:02 PM »
The ad on TV last night was soliciting people to call the lawyers place and was a paid legal advertisement, but did seem to "endorse" a certain product.   It did catch my attention!

Offline Bhend18

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2014, 09:27 PM »
Use a Festool Track Saw. Table saws are dangerous.  [big grin]
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Offline jacko9

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2014, 09:37 PM »
Use a Festool Track Saw. Table saws are dangerous.  [big grin]

This topic has been covered many times and for solid wood furniture builders that is not a viable option in my humble opinion.  [wink]

Jack

Offline NYC Tiny Shop

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2014, 10:19 PM »
Use a Festool Track Saw. Table saws are dangerous.  [big grin]

This topic has been covered many times and for solid wood furniture builders that is not a viable option in my humble opinion.  [wink]

Jack

+1

Offline Festool USA

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2014, 10:35 PM »
Guys, we all have our (probably very strong) opinions of this type of thing and the implications of lawsuits in our industry. This sort of thing threatens the livelihoods of people like me.

But, this is from a company, CAMG or Consumer Attorney Marketing Group, that help lawyers market their services by putting together these types of ads. There's no phone number or contact information because this is a generic template. Their YouTube channel is riddled with examples of all sorts of lawsuit ads and the like.

It's doubtful that any company other than them was behind the creation of the video.

Shane

Offline Motown

  • Posts: 198
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2014, 11:46 PM »
I suspect that there a few SawStop employees on this site and probably even reading this very thread and so I respectfully say this to them: You just lost me! I've been thinking and started to plan a table saw upgrade. I narrowed it down to a Hammer and a SawStop and I am now going with the Hammer because I simply don't like spending thousands of dollars with bullsh*ters. Especially when I don't have too. If safety where your true concern you would figure out a way to go 'down market' and make more cost effective table saws for the betterment of mankind. But that isn't really your goal. Your strategy is seriously misguided because if you can't go 'down market' than you should know that your target market audience (like members of FOG) will make decisions and pay a premium based on the merits (quality, safety, value) of your product. Just like we do w/ Festool.  So go on, continue to use fear as a sales tactic, enlist ambulance chasers and devalue the merits of your own product because, SawStop, you are fired!

As a FOG member, I love coming to this site and I try to stay out of conversations that are confrontational but this reaches new levels of low. I did a quick Google search and this add does tie back to an actual firm http://www.lawyerworks.com/personal-injury/table-saw-injury-lawyer.php

As previously discussed, its well known that SawStop tried to force other manufacturers to use their patent and, to me, the SawStop plug in the middle of the video makes it obvious that they are involved. Anyone own a Hammer Table Saw and have some feedback?

Offline Motown

  • Posts: 198
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2014, 12:03 AM »
It wouldn't surprise me if Steve Gass was behind the ads.  May the fleas of a thousand camels infest his armpits and crotch, and may he never have sufficient fingers to scratch where it itches!!!  

 [mad]



If there where a FOG hall of fame of amazing posts this one would have to be in the mix!  [tongue]

Offline Upscale

  • Posts: 754
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2014, 12:39 AM »
Loath me, hate me, indemnify me for saying it, but the SawStop is an extremely well built, functional machine with top notch safety features. To just dismiss it because you don't approve of their marketing method is tantamount to saying your fingers just aren't worth the money.

Fact is, the US is one of the most avaristic countries this world has ever seen. Yet, it's a wonder to see how many people whining about Gass wanting too much profit. Original licensing request by Gass was 8% I believe. Even on a $3000 tablesaw, that means a paltry licensing charge of $240. Even smokers usually pay much more than that per year on a completely wasteful, deadly product.

Gass is not breaking any laws, he's adhering to the right to charge what he wants and he has what I'd call a fairly priced product that can save many, many people from injuries that are often catastrophic.

Moderators, if you feel this message is antagonistic, then go ahead and delete it. But, take into fact that it's the truth as many including me see it.

Offline Upscale

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2014, 12:44 AM »
If safety where your true concern you would figure out a way to go 'down market' and make more cost effective table saws for the betterment of mankind. But that isn't really your goal.

US drug companies sell their products for higher rates than many other drug companies worldwide. Yet, I see very few complaining about them. They're in the business of making money wherever they can. Why aren't you complaining about companies making BILLIONS on the backs of people who need their products to survive?

Offline Upscale

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2014, 12:49 AM »
Guys, we all have our (probably very strong) opinions of this type of thing and the implications of lawsuits in our industry. This sort of thing threatens the livelihoods of people like me.

But, this is from a company, CAMG or Consumer Attorney Marketing Group, that help lawyers market their services by putting together these types of ads. There's no phone number or contact information because this is a generic template. Their YouTube channel is riddled with examples of all sorts of lawsuit ads and the like.

It's doubtful that any company other than them was behind the creation of the video.

Bravo! Despite dislike of SawStop and Gass, you have the integrity to voice what could be considered a logical, honest opinion even though it might deter a few people.

Offline wow

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2014, 01:15 AM »
Guys, we all have our (probably very strong) opinions of this type of thing and the implications of lawsuits in our industry. This sort of thing threatens the livelihoods of people like me.

But, this is from a company, CAMG or Consumer Attorney Marketing Group, that help lawyers market their services by putting together these types of ads. There's no phone number or contact information because this is a generic template. Their YouTube channel is riddled with examples of all sorts of lawsuit ads and the like.

It's doubtful that any company other than them was behind the creation of the video.

Shane

These types of ads are sometimes called 'slugs' - going back to the days of lead type slugs, but perhaps equally apropos in this case!

They are produced on spec and are offered to TV stations to sell to local clients. The station just drops in the phone number and other information and it looks like the ad was produced for the local attorney. I, too, have my doubst that SawStop paid to be a part of that. They were just cited as a company that has a much safer product that makes everybody else look bad by comparison.

If the attorney's who run the spots don't get any takers, they (the spots, not the attorneys) will disappear just as quickly as they appeared. Unfortunately the 'slugs' that are the attorneys seem to stay around forever...
Trying to be one of the most helpful members on the FOG.

Offline Motown

  • Posts: 198
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2014, 01:17 AM »
Upscale, you are entitled to your opinion but what is your point?  I am not complaining about US drug companies because this thread is not about US drug companies......its about SawStop. I am making an observation and ultimately a decision as a consumer where to spend my money.

If what you and others have said is true about the quality of their product isn't it easier to take the high road and grow your market share with a great product instead of enlisting a bunch of ambulance chasers to go after the revenue of your competitors? Their tactics suggest they don't think the merits of their product are enough to win. Does this type of judgement factor in to their engineering, manufacturing or customer service?

I am not saying Gass is breaking any laws, I am saying that if this is his strategy he is not smart enough to accomplish his goal.......and I'm going elsewhere.

« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 01:44 AM by Motown »

Offline rjwz28

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2014, 02:11 AM »
Upscale, you are entitled to your opinion but what is your point?  I am not complaining about US drug companies because this thread is not about US drug companies......its about SawStop. I am making an observation and ultimately a decision as a consumer where to spend my money.

If what you and others have said is true about the quality of their product isn't it easier to take the high road and grow your market share with a great product instead of enlisting a bunch of ambulance chasers to go after the revenue of your competitors? Their tactics suggest they don't think the merits of their product are enough to win. Does this type of judgement factor in to their engineering, manufacturing or customer service?

I am not saying Gass is breaking any laws, I am saying that if this is his strategy he is not smart enough to accomplish his goal.......and I'm going elsewhere.



Motown, this thread didn't start about Sawstop.  Look at the title.  It's about lawyers.  It became one after Sawstop haters started making comments.   And no one really knows if they are behind the add in the first place.

I own one and like Uptown, I really like mine.  If you don't want one, fine, don't buy one.  But you don't have to bash the product because you don't like the owner.  Everyone has their own preferences.  Also, I think they do take the high road as you suggest with great engineering, manufacturing and service.  I remember when I got mine, it had the best assembly plans of anything I ever bought.  It came with a book and all the parts were neatly sealed an labeled.

Rob

Offline Upscale

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2014, 02:15 AM »
If what you and others have said is true about the quality of their product isn't it easier to take the high road and grow your market share with a great product instead of enlisting a bunch of ambulance chasers to go after the revenue of your competitors?

I guess I didn't get my point across. Even if SawStop did enlist a legal group to get their point across (and that is not a given), I don't fault Saw for any part of their actions early on or the present. A small, beginning company has to fight tremendous obstacles to succeed. Many express their extreme outrage at SawStops marketing actions. Yet, many other real crimes and actions a thousand times worse, are carried out on a regular basis by people and companies. They appear to go by the wayside. Where's the outrage by the masses. Little SawStop gets this torrent of woodworker outrage while real travesties go by the wayside. How do you explain that?

While I can't really condone some of the stuff they've done, there's far many more prevalent things in my view of the world that I believe should be addressed (and really aren't) long before some blip on radar like SawStop. Anyway, that's my opinion and how I feel about it. I apologize of that offends you.  :)

Offline Upscale

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2014, 02:24 AM »
Motown, this thread didn't start about Sawstop.  Look at the title.  It's about lawyers.  It became one after Sawstop haters started making comments.   And no one really knows if they are behind the add in the first place.

I think you have to admit though, when anything about tablesaw safety is mentioned, SawStop comes immediately to mind. It's almost impossible to do otherwise. And of course, then comes the inevitable backlash.

Offline Kev

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2014, 02:56 AM »
That woman made me extremely angry.

People cut their fingers with knives all the time - let's dig up the poor caveman that invented it and sue the mammoth skin off his back!

I really despise people that profit from other people's pain and prey on the weak (is that the real definition of a lawyer?).

Personally I'd like to see Saw Stop suffer a serious negative backlash from this material as it's obvious their video was used in a promotional manner. I for one will NEVER touch, speak positively or recommend their tools.

SHAME, SHAME, SHAME [mad]


Offline Alex

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2014, 03:48 AM »
I too doubt SawStop has anything to do with this video. This is about lawyers trying to make a buck, and they simply use the SawStop device as a means. The woman said there happen 30.000 table saw related accidents per year in the US and for lawyers this means 30.000 possible jobs and 30.000 possible settlements. It is American culture that endorses this behaviour, not SawStop on its own.

I don't know about what Steve Gass does for tricks in the US, we're not privy to that information over here, but I do know that when I ever get a stationary table saw I will lean heavily towards getting the SawStop because I highly value my digits and am willing to pay a premium price for their well being. Just like I'm willing to pay a premium price for Festool products, even though I think lot's of their premium value is only perceived.

What I find amazing though is that they can twist reality into what they want. They talk about "defectively designed" if a saw doesn't have SawStop technology. So suddenly all saws that have been used before SawStop was around are defective. Pretty bold statement. What I find even more amazing is that a judge might actually go along with them.

Offline Reiska

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2014, 04:06 AM »
I watched the commercial and some others from the same channel and they seem to follow a unified format of showing products in their spots in exactly the same place so I wouldn't go accusing Saw Stop of product placement just because its mentioned as an example of the only device that wouldn't be 'defectively designed' by their legaleze pitch for compensation.
The sky's the limit in my workshop, literally. [big grin]

Offline RKA

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2014, 07:25 AM »
As much as I hate the practice of ambulance chasing, even they may serve a purpose in this little ecosystem.  Other table saw manufacturers don't want to be the first guy to pay the licensing and see their production cost increase.  They don't think they will be able to sell product at a price disadvantage.  Just like car manufacturers, it's a calculated risk.  How much do we lose in sales or profits (or both) by adding this technology vs. how much do we lose in law suits if we don't.  If the ambulance chasers can help them see they didn't make the right decision, maybe that opens some doors and gives the consumer a choice? 

Of course it's also possible the ambulance chasers hurt the equation.  Maybe the other saw manufacturers believe it's commonly accepted that saws inherently dangerous if you don't follow appropriate safety practices, so the payout for injuries is low, but with this technology, it might be expected that the saw is as safe as a butter knife.  So any failure of the technology would be a huge liability sitting squarely on the shoulders of the company with the deepest pockets. 

As someone who is considering the purchase of a saw, I have already decided I will not purchase a saw that doesn't have the best safety features available.  My fingers are tools that I use to earn a living, besides the fact that I happen to like them.  Cost is a concern, but the cost of an injury is many multiples of the cost of the saw.  What frustrates me most is lack of choice.  While sawstop does make a very nice saw, other manufacturers have made a decision not to incorporate the technology.  If they wanted to, I'm sure they could find a way to structure an arrangement with sawstop that was mutually beneficial.  The don't want to.  So as the consumer, I'm left to vote with my wallet and I really don't feel like I have a choice. 
-Raj

Offline Tim Raleigh

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2014, 07:34 AM »
That woman made me extremely angry.

She's an actress. I found her attractive but not very convincing.

This discussion got me thinking, are there as many accidents (per user) with sliding table saws compared to others. In other words are sliding table saws safer?
Saw stop is interesting technology. They developed it, and they deserve all the revenue they get from it just as Microsoft and Apple etc. do.
Tim

Offline kcufstoidi

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2014, 07:52 AM »
There are 2 known and documented facts, Gass is a lawyer and he's already tried to buy votes with donations to get legislation past. Yah there's no chance he's involved in this ad. LOL

John

Offline Ben H

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2014, 08:00 AM »
If that 8% number is correct for the others to place the tech in their saws, they are crazy to not offer one model with the brake.  People are strange, and brand loyal.  I know several guys who would pay 10-15% more for a PM saw, with the SS brake, than what a SS of equal power would cost.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2014, 08:14 AM »
I deleted my earlier post which I made based on my ignorance.  Here is a wiki link about legal advertising in the US which is quite legal.  I found it interesting reading in the article the concentration on certain areas of the law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_advertising_in_the_United_States

Peter

Offline Upscale

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2014, 09:02 AM »
If that 8% number is correct for the others to place the tech in their saws, they are crazy to not offer one model with the brake.  People are strange, and brand loyal.  I know several guys who would pay 10-15% more for a PM saw, with the SS brake, than what a SS of equal power would cost.

I'd suggest no one wants to be first to license SawStop technology because then all will inevitably have to capitulate to stay competitive with comparably safe products. What Gass did or didn't do to become profitable isn't really of much concern anymore because the dam is springing leaks like a sieve. It's the insurance companies and the increasingly more frequent law suits that are forcing the issue now and there's not much anybody can do to avoid the universal compliance that's coming.

Offline WarnerConstCo.

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2014, 09:28 AM »
Gass is a patent attorney.  He holds the patent for the brake technology. 

The commercial was goofy. 

Offline RKA

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2014, 09:42 AM »
There are 2 known and documented facts, Gass is a lawyer and he's already tried to buy votes with donations to get legislation past. Yah there's no chance he's involved in this ad. LOL

John

Here's another way to look at legislation.  When nobody wants to pony up to offer technology because it increases costs and potentially makes them less competitive, it levels the playing field when everyone has to offer something that adds value and safety.  Generally I don't care of the govt deciding what's best for me, but in this case, that may the impetus to move things along.  History is littered with examples of this, the auto industry is a perfect example.  It's not all good, but from a safety standpoint, I would say it's more good than bad.

As for the donations, it's hard not to spiral into a political debate, but thats how the system works.  You want your voice heard, make a donation and you get someone's ear for 15 mins.  If you make a convincing case to the right person, maybe that propels change.  All I know is sawstop doesn't have the muscle capacity of pharma, gun and other lobbies, so I doubt he's "buying" anything.  I suspect all he's doing is increasing his odds of being heard.  And he recognizes that government and customers are two ways to bring about change.  Yes, he stands to benefit from the change, but that doesn't automatically invalidate anything he pitches to the powers that be.  I will say it's a stretch to connect that activity with this silly ad, but that's up to the reader/viewer to decide for himself/herself.
-Raj

Offline Kev

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2014, 09:57 AM »
Even here on the FOG you'll see people posting workshop pictures with unsafe setups, bare blades, crap all over the floors ... need I even mention the love of the dado blade set [scared]

I can see the future - people tripping over cats in the workshop and going neck first into the running table saw with no guard ... don't worry, all you have to do is sue the manufacturer.

Where does this stop?

Ever cut yourself sharpening a chisel ? Get a lawyer
Ever stub your toe on a workbench? Get a lawyer
Ever fall out of a window? Get a lawyer

Just another little thing - a lot of table saw injuries relate to material flying through the air - taking out eyes, etc. The saw stop doesn't leap up and grab projectiles, it'll blind you just like any other table saw used incorrectly and unsafely.

At some point we need to let Darwin back into the game and clean up the gene pool [blink]

So I vote for a device the blows a driver's head off if he drives stupidly close to a bicycle [wink] that's real safety!

Offline Motown

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2014, 10:02 AM »
Upscale, fair enough and no offense taken. I think your comments about their branding are true.....when you think of table saw safety, you think of Sawstop. They should just stick to that and to building great products. It can be that simple. If you look at the number of negative reactions (mine being the loudest this time) and easily conclude that fear mongering is not effective.


Offline Kev

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2014, 10:04 AM »
That woman made me extremely angry.

She's an actress. I found her attractive but not very convincing.

This discussion got me thinking, are there as many accidents (per user) with sliding table saws compared to others. In other words are sliding table saws safer?
Saw stop is interesting technology. They developed it, and they deserve all the revenue they get from it just as Microsoft and Apple etc. do.
Tim

Of course she's an actress, lawyers have horns and half eaten rabbits hanging out of their mouths.

I swear the last things left alive on the planet will be lawyers and cockroaches ... and I'll feel sorry for the cockroaches.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 10:31 AM by Kev »

Offline dpeagles

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2014, 10:17 AM »
Wow. [sad]
 If Sawstop really wanted to make a better world for woodworkers, then they would license their technology, at a reasonable rate, to all saw makers.  Avarice is not appealing.

What has happened to America that Profit is a dirty word?  Sawstop has built a better mouse trap.  Development of the technology was most likely very risky financially.  Why should they just give away their technology?  If you want a safer tablesaw...buy a sawstop.


The fact is, their design is safer and has placed other saws at a disadvantage that can now be seen as defective or unsafe as compared to the newer safer design.  Kind of like a car that still has lapbelts.

Offline Upscale

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I swear the last things left alive on the planet will be lawyers and cockroaches ... and I'll feel sorry for the cockroaches.

Sure, you'll be sorry until one of the mutated cockroaches hires a lawyer to sue you for your last radiation suit just because you stepped on one of its relatives.

 [laughing]

Offline Kev

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2014, 10:26 AM »
Wow. [sad]
 If Sawstop really wanted to make a better world for woodworkers, then they would license their technology, at a reasonable rate, to all saw makers.  Avarice is not appealing.

What has happened to America that Profit is a dirty word?  Sawstop has built a better mouse trap.  Development of the technology was most likely very risky financially.  Why should they just give away their technology?  If you want a safer tablesaw...buy a sawstop.


The fact is, their design is safer and has placed other saws at a disadvantage that can now be seen as defective or unsafe as compared to the newer safer design.  Kind of like a car that still has lapbelts.

OK, here we have it - any table saw that can't avoid damaging a sausage as it is intentionally pushed through the blade is defective. You should be a lawyer.


Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7651
I swear the last things left alive on the planet will be lawyers and cockroaches ... and I'll feel sorry for the cockroaches.

Sure, you'll be sorry until one of the mutated cockroaches hires a lawyer to sue you for your last radiation suit just because you stepped on one of its relatives.

 [laughing]

Nah, I will probably have died long before from a highly dangerous origami folding accident in which I received a paper cut, but was too lazy to sue the paper manufacturer for hospital care ... dying horribly from an infection.

 [wink]

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1288
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2014, 10:44 AM »
OK, here we have it - any table saw that can't avoid damaging a sausage as it is intentionally pushed through the blade is defective. You should be a lawyer.

Making fun of his statement doesn't make it any less valid.  If a manufacturer chooses not to offer an available safety device that could have prevented an accident, the question is how much responsibility do they share for the end result.  Hint:  the answer is not none and it's not all. 
-Raj

Offline Tom Bellemare

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2014, 10:58 AM »
Hippocrates said that Medicine is the highest profession.

He also said that Law was second because Lawyers were required to protect us from Physicians.

He solved issues in any human orifice with a red-hot poker. Medicine has come a long way. So has technology...

The SS safety technology isn't the only way to make a saw safer.


Tom
Tom Bellemare
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512-428-9140

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1920
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2014, 11:01 AM »
Once the patent runs out then most saws will offer a sawstop type feature. As for the video, she forgot to mention the deffective opperators. I completely agree that a truly defective tool is a manufacturers responsibility, but I'm so tired of people trying to profit from their own negligence and stupidity and expecting the world to be free of danger for the careless.
+1

Offline Jalvis

  • Posts: 348
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2014, 11:45 AM »
So all the guys who have employees in a professional shop thinking what I'm thinking?

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1288
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #46 on: February 28, 2014, 12:36 PM »
Paul,
I honestly don't believe that to be the case.  While there are a few law suits that get through rewarding people even when personal responsibility was needlessly thrown out the window, I do think when a jury hears the facts and weighs them, they factor this in.  I was in the jury box in one such case (loss of fingers), and while the defendant had some responsibility, the primary responsibility was determined to lay with the plaintiff since they had ample opportunity to avoid the disaster.  There was plenty of sympathy to go around, but nothing was awarded that you could take to the bank.  Listening to how others felt about the situation and how we came to agreement restored my faith, even if there are flaws.  There was no belief among us that the world should be free of dangers.  Not everybody profits so easily.
-Raj

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1920
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2014, 01:02 PM »
Paul,
I honestly don't believe that to be the case.  While there are a few law suits that get through rewarding people even when personal responsibility was needlessly thrown out the window, I do think when a jury hears the facts and weighs them, they factor this in.  I was in the jury box in one such case (loss of fingers), and while the defendant had some responsibility, the primary responsibility was determined to lay with the plaintiff since they had ample opportunity to avoid the disaster.  There was plenty of sympathy to go around, but nothing was awarded that you could take to the bank.  Listening to how others felt about the situation and how we came to agreement restored my faith, even if there are flaws.  There was no belief among us that the world should be free of dangers.  Not everybody profits so easily.

There may have been no award but it is safe to assume the defendant still lost a lot of money defending themselves. It is a shallow victory to be the winner and still be out 5-6 figures on all the costs associated with the frivolous lawsuit. I've heard and read about way too many frivolous lawsuits and absurd awards to have faith in a system so easily abused. It's better than pistols and 20 paces but our system needs some serious fixing.
+1

Offline greg mann

  • Posts: 1842
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #48 on: February 28, 2014, 02:00 PM »
As someone whose life was saved in 1963 by an aftermarket seatbelt, well before their installation was mandated and, as someone who was competently and ethically represented by a lawyer in a very difficult and protracted custody case, I feel very frustrated by many of the comments in this thread. It is so easy to jump to conclusions based on our own biases without true objective analysis of the issues and facts involved. While I don't know this to be absolute fact, I have heard on several occasions the SawStop is the highest selling cabinet saw in the US. It certainly has become a very popular barand at the very least. As has already been stated, there is no direct indication SS has anything to do with this ad. Why, after the seven or so years of constantly rising sales and clear evidence of beating other manufactureres at their own game would SS go the route of a sleazy ad. We all see these ads for all manner of possible claims. Auto injury, asbestos, slip and fall, you name it. Just because Gass is a lawyer there is no reason to assume he should be lumped with the worst of that profession. Upscale's posts are, in my opinion, well reasoned and well articulated. As he says, if we want to just vent we should be comprehensive and consistent about it. There are countless examples of willful negligence that should spark our outrage but seemingly don't.

I have yet to figure out why Gass gets villified when, IMO, it should be all of those manufacturers who turned their back on someone who came to them with technology that would clearly make their equipment safer. I don't buy the resentment over being told what to do by the government either. There  are so many, many safeguards in place that, without them, our life expectancy would probably be about 35 years. Reading some of the posts here makes me think some of us truly resent, without acknowledging its positive impact, the time spent waiting for a light to turn green .
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1288
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #49 on: February 28, 2014, 02:45 PM »
Paul,
I honestly don't believe that to be the case.  While there are a few law suits that get through rewarding people even when personal responsibility was needlessly thrown out the window, I do think when a jury hears the facts and weighs them, they factor this in.  I was in the jury box in one such case (loss of fingers), and while the defendant had some responsibility, the primary responsibility was determined to lay with the plaintiff since they had ample opportunity to avoid the disaster.  There was plenty of sympathy to go around, but nothing was awarded that you could take to the bank.  Listening to how others felt about the situation and how we came to agreement restored my faith, even if there are flaws.  There was no belief among us that the world should be free of dangers.  Not everybody profits so easily.

There may have been no award but it is safe to assume the defendant still lost a lot of money defending themselves. It is a shallow victory to be the winner and still be out 5-6 figures on all the costs associated with the frivolous lawsuit. I've heard and read about way too many frivolous lawsuits and absurd awards to have faith in a system so easily abused. It's better than pistols and 20 paces but our system needs some serious fixing.

Point taken, but it was both parties that were out serious money.  That barrier doesn't just limit the frivolous cases, it is also the reason some don't file cases when there is merit.  The risk of losing is too high.  Of course this favors the party with deeper pockets who can absorb the loss or pass it on. 
-Raj

Offline dpeagles

  • Posts: 39
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #50 on: February 28, 2014, 02:49 PM »
As someone whose life was saved in 1963 by an aftermarket seatbelt, well before their installation was mandated and, as someone who was competently and ethically represented by a lawyer in a very difficult and protracted custody case, I feel very frustrated by many of the comments in this thread. It is so easy to jump to conclusions based on our own biases without true objective analysis of the issues and facts involved. While I don't know this to be absolute fact, I have heard on several occasions the SawStop is the highest selling cabinet saw in the US. It certainly has become a very popular barand at the very least. As has already been stated, there is no direct indication SS has anything to do with this ad. Why, after the seven or so years of constantly rising sales and clear evidence of beating other manufactureres at their own game would SS go the route of a sleazy ad. We all see these ads for all manner of possible claims. Auto injury, asbestos, slip and fall, you name it. Just because Gass is a lawyer there is no reason to assume he should be lumped with the worst of that profession. Upscale's posts are, in my opinion, well reasoned and well articulated. As he says, if we want to just vent we should be comprehensive and consistent about it. There are countless examples of willful negligence that should spark our outrage but seemingly don't.

I have yet to figure out why Gass gets villified when, IMO, it should be all of those manufacturers who turned their back on someone who came to them with technology that would clearly make their equipment safer. I don't buy the resentment over being told what to do by the government either. There  are so many, many safeguards in place that, without them, our life expectancy would probably be about 35 years. Reading some of the posts here makes me think some of us truly resent, without acknowledging its positive impact, the time spent waiting for a light to turn green .
[/quote


Agree totally.  I don't own a sawstop.  Don't plan on buying one.  But I certainly don't see them in a negative light.

Offline jacko9

  • Posts: 2378
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2014, 03:04 PM »
As much as I dislike "ambulance chaser lawyers" I am interested in the Saw Stop Table Saw.  How many users have experienced false positives where they blade goes into safety with wet wood?

Jack

Offline Asterix

  • Posts: 30
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #52 on: February 28, 2014, 03:10 PM »
Sick commercial. Regardless if it's for a lawyer firm of Saw table manufacturer.


Where to apply for a lawsuit when the wind blow some sand into my eyes  [blink] and it might have hurt. ..... [eek]
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Offline bruegf

  • Posts: 794
  • Michigan
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #53 on: February 28, 2014, 04:28 PM »
It sure is amazing the amount rancor Sawstop manages to produce.  Reminds me of the crap everyone spouted (including me) when the govt mandated seatbelts.   Just curious how many of you that love to bash Sawstop and its invertor would prefer to be in an auto accident today w/o seatbelts or airbags.   Think of the hundreds of dollars you could save if you could buy a car w/o either of these safety technologies and the 10's of thousands you'll spend on your medical bills instead.  That's showing them!

I earn my living on a keyboard.   I bought a sawstop for 2 reasons.   One, its a very well made saw that isn't that much more expensive than competitor's products that have the same level of quality.   Two, even though I've been fortunate enough to never have even had a close call (although I nearly shredded a finger on the domino a couple times) in all the years I've used a table saw, if I ever do have something go wrong, I want all the help I can get (same reason I wear my seatbelt).  It's cheap insurance as far as I'm concerned.  I'd buy one even if the saw was trashed after the brake fired.   The cost of the saw is miniscule compared to the cost of medical care for severed digits.  It just boggles my mind how emotional some folks get about the sawstop, nobody's making you buy one, chill.

Jack, I've never had a misfire because of wet wood, although I don't use much wet wood in any case and when I do I elect to give up the brake feature by turning it off and (hopefully) am even more careful than I normally am when using the saw.   I've had the brake fire once when someone else using my saw pushed the aluminum fence of my incra miter gauge into the blade.  You can't even feel where the blade touched the fence unless you do it with the edge of your fingernail.   If it had been my finger I doubt it would have even drawn blood.  In my case it saved a $20 aluminum extrusion and cost my $90 for new brake and $100 for a new saw blade.  An expensive save for a $20 fence, but worth every penny if it had been my fingers.


Fred
Fred

Offline jacko9

  • Posts: 2378
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2014, 04:48 PM »
It sure is amazing the amount rancor Sawstop manages to produce.  Reminds me of the crap everyone spouted (including me) when the govt mandated seatbelts.   Just curious how many of you that love to bash Sawstop and its invertor would prefer to be in an auto accident today w/o seatbelts or airbags.   Think of the hundreds of dollars you could save if you could buy a car w/o either of these safety technologies and the 10's of thousands you'll spend on your medical bills instead.  That's showing them!

I earn my living on a keyboard.   I bought a sawstop for 2 reasons.   One, its a very well made saw that isn't that much more expensive than competitor's products that have the same level of quality.   Two, even though I've been fortunate enough to never have even had a close call (although I nearly shredded a finger on the domino a couple times) in all the years I've used a table saw, if I ever do have something go wrong, I want all the help I can get (same reason I wear my seatbelt).  It's cheap insurance as far as I'm concerned.  I'd buy one even if the saw was trashed after the brake fired.   The cost of the saw is miniscule compared to the cost of medical care for severed digits.  It just boggles my mind how emotional some folks get about the sawstop, nobody's making you buy one, chill.

Jack, I've never had a misfire because of wet wood, although I don't use much wet wood in any case and when I do I elect to give up the brake feature by turning it off and (hopefully) am even more careful than I normally am when using the saw.   I've had the brake fire once when someone else using my saw pushed the aluminum fence of my incra miter gauge into the blade.  You can't even feel where the blade touched the fence unless you do it with the edge of your fingernail.   If it had been my finger I doubt it would have even drawn blood.  In my case it saved a $20 aluminum extrusion and cost my $90 for new brake and $100 for a new saw blade.  An expensive save for a $20 fence, but worth every penny if it had been my fingers.


Fred

Thanks Fred,  I was unaware that you could turn the brake feature to an off position.  I don't cut wet wood either but, some imported plywood has some "interesting features between the plys".

Jack

Offline bruegf

  • Posts: 794
  • Michigan
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #55 on: February 28, 2014, 05:01 PM »
Yeah, there's always a chance you get a bit embedded metal.  They claim something like a staple won't cause the brake to fire, but I guess the only way to be sure would be to go over it with a detector.  You can disable the brake, but it is something you have to do every time you turn the saw on.   Turn it off and back on and the brake is enabled again unless you specifically turn it off each time.

Fred
« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 05:06 PM by bruegf »
Fred

Offline Sparktrician

  • Posts: 3674
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #56 on: February 28, 2014, 08:01 PM »
Once the patent runs out then most saws will offer a sawstop type feature. As for the video, she forgot to mention the deffective opperators. I completely agree that a truly defective tool is a manufacturers responsibility, but I'm so tired of people trying to profit from their own negligence and stupidity and expecting the world to be free of danger for the careless.

That's one of the things that burns me up about the Osario lawsuit.


That and the dummy that put an open cup of hot coffee between her legs while driving.  McDonald's didn't reach into her car and put it there, yet they got roasted as a result of her incredible stupidity and failure to accept personal responsibility for her own injury. 

« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 08:05 PM by Sparktrician »
- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7651
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #57 on: February 28, 2014, 08:05 PM »
OK, here we have it - any table saw that can't avoid damaging a sausage as it is intentionally pushed through the blade is defective. You should be a lawyer.

Making fun of his statement doesn't make it any less valid.  If a manufacturer chooses not to offer an available safety device that could have prevented an accident, the question is how much responsibility do they share for the end result.  Hint:  the answer is not none and it's not all. 

FUN?

I am being deadly serious. The only proof I've seen is that a saw stop can protect a sausage if it is slowly moved towards the blade. I have no solid evidence that it's protect against anything else.

There's nothing to protect manufacturers against uneducated, clumsy, drunk, tired, distracted, negligent, drugged, angry or other operation of a table saw ... or any other tool for that matter - other than counter legal cases. AWESOME!

If people want to buy a saw stop, good for them!

People comparing a saw stop to a seat belt need to think a little broader ... I wear a seat belt because there are so many morons on the road drinking coffee and chatting on the phone that can kill me. I'm not afraid that someone will come into my workspace, take the guard off my saw and push my hand into it. I know NOT TO PUT MY HAND NEAR A FAST SPINNING BLADE.

Anyone that thinks the correct approach to workshop safety is to mandate saw stop or make it viable to sue a table saw manufacturer for not offering saw stop technology should also think it necessary to ban bandsaws, spindle moulders, planers, etc ... they're all dangerous tools if handled incorrectly. Just like guns! (which I personally think should have DNA encoding to the owner to prevent anyone else ever firing them ... and that on every weapon in existence - a minor expense!).

How many of the 30,000 accidents happen without a push stick? without a blade guard? using a dado blade set? inadequate lighting?

Start down this path and the tool world will split as the US legal system has a field day crippling and profiting from the US tool market ... at which point all non US tool manufacturers will probably exit the US market.

I don't really care - I don't live in the US, but can't you see what you're doing here?


Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1288
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #58 on: February 28, 2014, 09:26 PM »
If you don't understand or believe what sawstop claims their device does, I don't know what to say.  The information is out there, they aren't hiding how their device works. There is even a discovery channel video out there with the owner feeding his finger into one of his saws.  I suppose it's possible he paid off discovery channel and rigged the whole thing...maybe.  If you're a conspiracy theorist, then nothing I could say matters.  We'll move along.

What protects the manufacturers?  How about the same thing that helps protect the customers, the safety device!

I can appreciate the fact that you're too smart for an accident to happen to you.  I, however, am human.  And try as I might, I'm not perfect.  If you can add a safety net between me and that exposed blade and it doesn't hinder my ability to use the tool, I see no reason not to have the safety net.  And yes, I wear a seat belt, even when there is nobody else on the road.  It's a safety net just in case.  That was the point being made.  Not that we're so dumb we need tool manufacturers to save us from ourselves.

Those other power tools you mentioned, you're right about one thing.  They aren't far behind.  No they won't be banned, that's just sensationalistic talk.  The table saw is just the test bed and once a precedent is set, the other tools with completely exposed blades will share a similar fate. 

Once again, following your line of thinking, how is it even possible automakers can sell cars in the US?  There is far more liability selling cars than there is selling power tools.  If tool manufacturers wanted to leave the US market, they would have already done so.  Doomsday predictions aren't compelling.
-Raj

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1920
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #59 on: February 28, 2014, 09:38 PM »
Aren't the Festool CMS accessories for track saws and the 2200 being withheld for liability concerns? There's a whole lot of NAINA going on around here.
+1

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7651
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #60 on: February 28, 2014, 10:32 PM »
If you don't understand or believe what sawstop claims their device does, I don't know what to say. 

Maybe that the the correct point to stop your story ...

Be happy with your own opinion and your own amazingly safe leap up and protect you from alien invasion saw stop.

If someone doesn't share your opinion and sees a different future potential you shouldn't feel so threatened - tough luck, honestly.

Let's all hope for the sake of your fellow US citizens that claims against "should have had" safety mechanisms don't spiral out of control and force local only product manufacture and consumption of highly expensive "safety" tools.

As for your little "too smart" comment goes, no - I'm just not so stupid as to EXPECT someone else to provide me with safety, then have the luxury of engaging a lawyer if I still screw up.

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Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7651
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #61 on: March 01, 2014, 12:36 AM »
http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/45040/stephen-colbert-takes-the-sizzle-out-of-sawstop

 ... slightly old and the video isn't available to me - but I found the many comments to the post very interesting.

Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
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  • Posts: 11600
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #62 on: March 01, 2014, 03:07 AM »
Hey,

There are many factors going on in the whole Sawstop / tool safety / product liability/ mandated / my rights / international differences / aspect here that won't be solved thru our posts here and we shouldn't be making any of this personal. 


Offline Upscale

  • Posts: 754
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #63 on: March 01, 2014, 05:21 AM »
As much as I dislike "ambulance chaser lawyers" I am interested in the Saw Stop Table Saw.  How many users have experienced false positives where they blade goes into safety with wet wood?

People keep asking that question and it's a non sequitur as far as I see it. How many woodworkers cut wet wood on their tablesaws? I never have. When I buy my wood at the lumber yard, I buy dry, stable wood that isn't going to significantly warp after I bring it home.

But, just for your information, a friend of my bought a SawStop a number of months back. He's a professional woodworker and has put a number of hours on his saw. He has yet to experience any incident that causes the saw to brake.

In the end, the safety feature on the SawStop can be turned off in the event that you might be cutting something that would cause a false positive. And, I'd be using a moisture meter on any wood that I suspected was wet.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 05:26 AM by Upscale »

Offline bruegf

  • Posts: 794
  • Michigan
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #64 on: March 01, 2014, 06:21 AM »
People comparing a saw stop to a seat belt need to think a little broader ... I wear a seat belt because there are so many morons on the road drinking coffee and chatting on the phone that can kill me. I'm not afraid that someone will come into my workspace, take the guard off my saw and push my hand into it. I know NOT TO PUT MY HAND NEAR A FAST SPINNING BLADE.

Yep, so similar to the arguments about seatbelts, "I'm a safe/better/smarter/you name driver than everyone else on the road and I don't need someone telling how to drive safely" and all the other absurd arguments.   Contrary to your statement the similarities are amazing.   And maybe you are smart enough not to text while driving, but I'm guessing even you will answer your cell while driving, and that alone makes you more accident prone.  Since I don't know if you do or don't EVER answer your cell while driving, good for you if you don't.  In that case you are one in a million.

Anyone that thinks the correct approach to workshop safety is to mandate saw stop or make it viable to sue a table saw manufacturer for not offering saw stop technology should also think it necessary to ban bandsaws, spindle moulders, planers, etc ... they're all dangerous tools if handled incorrectly. Just like guns! (which I personally think should have DNA encoding to the owner to prevent anyone else ever firing them ... and that on every weapon in existence - a minor expense!).
People are always the weakest link in safety, if we weren't, no safety devices would be required for any technology.  Mandating seatbelts did not eliminate or reduce accidents, it just increased the odds of surviving them.   Mandating brake technology (and I'm not a fan of mandating it) will reduce the number of serious accidents, but it won't prevent any.   I don't want it mandated, but I wanted the extra insurance enough to pay for it.   Its no different than buying home owners, auto, life, or medical insurance.  Like the brake technology, none of those prevent bad things, but reduce the impact if they do happen.

I don't really care - I don't live in the US, but can't you see what you're doing here?
Based on the number and intensity of your posts I find it very difficult to believe that you "don't really care".   

Fred

Fred

Offline Motown

  • Posts: 198
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #65 on: March 01, 2014, 07:13 AM »
Hey,

There are many factors going on in the whole Sawstop / tool safety / product liability/ mandated / my rights / international differences / aspect here that won't be solved thru our posts here and we shouldn't be making any of this personal.  



I do think there is value in discussing these types of issues here because, for my part, the FOG has influenced many of my purchase decisions. As a musician/guitar player I think about my fingers when I am hammering a nail, let alone cutting wood and the SawStop was very interesting to me for that reason alone. That said, I am going in a different direction because professionalism and the way a company conducts itself means something to me. By all accounts the SawStop seems like a great saw but there are other options out there.

Now, if I could just think of a company that SawStop could look too as an example: one that innovates amazing tools, conducts itself professionally, works its *ss off to deliver great customer service and as a result is able to ask for and get a premium price..........where would I send them?  [tongue]



« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 07:17 AM by Motown »

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #66 on: March 01, 2014, 08:08 AM »
I agree that posting here can be beneficial.  Hot topic for sure.  I was just trying to say "let's not get personal if someone else's thoughts and opinions vary from our own."

Happy Posting!

Peter

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1920
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #67 on: March 01, 2014, 08:17 AM »
bruegf, seems to me the only way the cellphone while driving analogy applies is if someone is going to use their cellphone while using a table saw. There's probably some moron who would especially with the advent of bluetooth headsets but it is his/her fingers at risk and not my own.

Before this thread I didn't know much about the history of the sawstop introduction to the marketplace.  I admire the innovation and no doubt it has prevented serious injury, in each case though I wonder how on earth did that person get their body on that blade. Only way I know is to ignore the rules of usage. Once the patent runs out on the technology I wonder about the long term viability of the brand. We likely will see comparisons of why xyz brake is better than abc brake, or maybe it will be simply a price war. More fingers of careless people will be saved but the consequence among some consumers will be a sense of security and complacency to good safety practices as people rely on the technology to protect them from themselves. The worst part then is when there is a genuine product failure and the brake fails to engage and the complacent person purposefully has their fingers far too close to the blade thinking it no longer matters since the tool will protect me and loses them. That jury will likely place all or most of the responsibility on the saw manufacturer (and any other wallets the plaintifs lawyer can mine) and stupid behavior is rewarded. Regardless it won't be long after general availability of the technology that it will be on a lot of other tools as well. My friend who was cutting a 2x4 with a circular saw and thought it convenient to rest the wood on his knee (sadly a true story) might just find a sympathetic jury willing to blame Skil for not putting a brake on those tools as well. I guess for me I'm just tired of the courts and legislatures pressing society into the mould of the lowest common denominator.
+1

Offline greg mann

  • Posts: 1842
Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #68 on: March 01, 2014, 08:34 AM »
People comparing a saw stop to a seat belt need to think a little broader ... I wear a seat belt because there are so many morons on the road drinking coffee and chatting on the phone that can kill me. I'm not afraid that someone will come into my workspace, take the guard off my saw and push my hand into it. I know NOT TO PUT MY HAND NEAR A FAST SPINNING BLADE.

Yep, so similar to the arguments about seatbelts, "I'm a safe/better/smarter/you name driver than everyone else on the road and I don't need someone telling how to drive safely" and all the other absurd arguments.   Contrary to your statement the similarities are amazing.   And maybe you are smart enough not to text while driving, but I'm guessing even you will answer your cell while driving, and that alone makes you more accident prone.  Since I don't know if you do or don't EVER answer your cell while driving, good for you if you don't.  In that case you are one in a million.
Fred



Kev, Please don't underestimate your own capacity to make a mistake.
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline Kev

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #69 on: March 01, 2014, 08:36 AM »
People comparing a saw stop to a seat belt need to think a little broader ... I wear a seat belt because there are so many morons on the road drinking coffee and chatting on the phone that can kill me. I'm not afraid that someone will come into my workspace, take the guard off my saw and push my hand into it. I know NOT TO PUT MY HAND NEAR A FAST SPINNING BLADE.

Yep, so similar to the arguments about seatbelts, "I'm a safe/better/smarter/you name driver than everyone else on the road and I don't need someone telling how to drive safely" and all the other absurd arguments.   Contrary to your statement the similarities are amazing.   And maybe you are smart enough not to text while driving, but I'm guessing even you will answer your cell while driving, and that alone makes you more accident prone.  Since I don't know if you do or don't EVER answer your cell while driving, good for you if you don't.  In that case you are one in a million.

Anyone that thinks the correct approach to workshop safety is to mandate saw stop or make it viable to sue a table saw manufacturer for not offering saw stop technology should also think it necessary to ban bandsaws, spindle moulders, planers, etc ... they're all dangerous tools if handled incorrectly. Just like guns! (which I personally think should have DNA encoding to the owner to prevent anyone else ever firing them ... and that on every weapon in existence - a minor expense!).
People are always the weakest link in safety, if we weren't, no safety devices would be required for any technology.  Mandating seatbelts did not eliminate or reduce accidents, it just increased the odds of surviving them.   Mandating brake technology (and I'm not a fan of mandating it) will reduce the number of serious accidents, but it won't prevent any.   I don't want it mandated, but I wanted the extra insurance enough to pay for it.   Its no different than buying home owners, auto, life, or medical insurance.  Like the brake technology, none of those prevent bad things, but reduce the impact if they do happen.

I don't really care - I don't live in the US, but can't you see what you're doing here?
Based on the number and intensity of your posts I find it very difficult to believe that you "don't really care".   

Fred



Well Fred, as difficult as you find it, I really don't care - it honestly has little real impact on me - but I am amused. Blatant exploitation does get me momentarily on edge, but I get on with it and look for ways to entertain myself.

We'll circle back to seat belts ... seat bets are a very small part of a car ... the saw stop mechanism is a major part of a table saw. Don't know if you remember the introduction of seat belts, but they didn't double the price of a car. Just to be clear, wading a seatbelt while answering your phone doesn't protect the child you just ran over or the cyclist that you nudged off the road.

When it comes to texting while driving ... they're the very people I would love to see exit the gene pool (but that is heading off topic somewhat).

Back on saw stop - I have no problem with you wanting it, based on US table saw accidents it could only a matter of time till you have an accident if you use one ... but will it be body part in blade accident or some other form of injury?

I really hope saw stop doesn't bring about complacency when it comes to safety ...

You know, when you drive a car today, everything is automatic - not much to do ... big safe lump of metal, air bags, seat belts, cruise control, so why not pick up the coffee cup take a sip and turn round and look at the kids ... what's the risk?

... maybe because that's when things go wrong - like when a police woman driving a 4WD turned to look at her kids and drove through a red light and wrote off my niece's Toyota Tarago and permanently disfigured 4 of her 5 children. THANK YOU SEAT BELTS, you kept them nicely in place as they were squashed and mangled. But why do you think it happened?

...

Here's a more primal question for you to consider ... should you feel safe when you're doing something that has serious elements of danger? or does the fear keep you alert and focused?

Offline duburban

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #70 on: March 01, 2014, 08:42 AM »
As much as I dislike "ambulance chaser lawyers" I am interested in the Saw Stop Table Saw.  How many users have experienced false positives where they blade goes into safety with wet wood?

People keep asking that question and it's a non sequitur as far as I see it. How many woodworkers cut wet wood on their tablesaws? I never have. When I buy my wood at the lumber yard, I buy dry, stable wood that isn't going to significantly warp after I bring it home.

But, just for your information, a friend of my bought a SawStop a number of months back. He's a professional woodworker and has put a number of hours on his saw. He has yet to experience any incident that causes the saw to brake.

In the end, the safety feature on the SawStop can be turned off in the event that you might be cutting something that would cause a false positive. And, I'd be using a moisture meter on any wood that I suspected was wet.



I have access to a woodshop that has a sawstop. It has tripped by non human flesh 4 times. It happens on dense exotic woods. Blades are destroyed each time…
helper: i used a festool "circular saw" to do something simple and it made it really hard

me: exactly, it makes simple cuts complicated and complicated cuts simple

Offline Sal LiVecchi

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #71 on: March 01, 2014, 08:48 AM »
Here's a more primal question for you to consider ... should you feel safe when you're doing something that has serious elements of danger?    NO
or does the fear keep you alert and focused?   YES

My thinking is that no matter what we do, drive, jog, bike ride, work with our tools we need to be aware of our surroundings and what we are doing at all time. I always believed at the end of a day being with family is the only real thing that counts so...

Be Aware of what you do.  Off track maybe but on track for me
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Offline woodie

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #72 on: March 01, 2014, 08:48 AM »
If you don't understand or believe what sawstop claims their device does, I don't know what to say.  The information is out there, they aren't hiding how their device works. There is even a discovery channel video out there with the owner feeding his finger into one of his saws.  I suppose it's possible he paid off discovery channel and rigged the whole thing...maybe.

If you watched the Discovery video I'm guessing you saw the part where he soaks his hands in water for a few minutes before testing the saw. Not sure when the last time was I did that before using a table saw... Not saying I would want to test it on my own finger, but how is what he did any more real world than a hotdog.
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Offline Steve Rowe

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #73 on: March 01, 2014, 08:50 AM »
I don't own a Sawstop and probably never will although I have used one in a woodworking class and have seen multiple demonstrations of the actuation first hand at both the IWF and AWFS shows.  The actuations I have seen are not slowly pushing a hot dog on top of a board into the blade.  They are feeding it as fast as the wood can be cut.  The results I have witnessed leave barely a mark on the hot dog skin.  I have absolute confidence the technology works as advertised.  Having both used and inspected the Sawstop, it is also a fine and well constructed machine.  I would have no reservations about purchasing one and if I was in the market for an American style cabinet saw, the Sawstop is what I would purchase today.

With respect to the ad, I just don't see much difference between this ad template and the dozens of other ads we see all the time that are actually aired - everything from social security disability denials, to some particular drug or other medical device.  It is just some lawyer or law firm hoping to make a big strike and make a lot of money by suing companies that they perceive as having deep pockets.  I have yet to see any evidence that Sawstop is behind this ad template and until we do, it is unfair to blame them for developing a technology that actually makes saws safer despite how it makes their competitors appear.   What I find most disgusting, is the American legal system that more often than not fails to recognize the role of personal responsibility in these cases.  There is always some level of assumed risk in whatever we choose to do.  If you wish to go bungee jumping and injure/kill yourself, don't expect to be successful in a lawsuit against the retailer who sold you the rope and the manufacturer of the rope because the rope was too long.  I would personally like to see the loser of a lawsuit be responsible for all legal and court fees of the party that prevailed.  That would put an end to a lot of this nonsense.


Offline Kev

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #74 on: March 01, 2014, 08:57 AM »
People comparing a saw stop to a seat belt need to think a little broader ... I wear a seat belt because there are so many morons on the road drinking coffee and chatting on the phone that can kill me. I'm not afraid that someone will come into my workspace, take the guard off my saw and push my hand into it. I know NOT TO PUT MY HAND NEAR A FAST SPINNING BLADE.

Yep, so similar to the arguments about seatbelts, "I'm a safe/better/smarter/you name driver than everyone else on the road and I don't need someone telling how to drive safely" and all the other absurd arguments.   Contrary to your statement the similarities are amazing.   And maybe you are smart enough not to text while driving, but I'm guessing even you will answer your cell while driving, and that alone makes you more accident prone.  Since I don't know if you do or don't EVER answer your cell while driving, good for you if you don't.  In that case you are one in a million.
Fred



Kev, Please don't underestimate your own capacity to make a mistake.

Thanks Greg, I appreciate the thought.

I take massive precautions, i've seen too much in my life not to.

FWIW, I believe there's two kinds (broadly) of accidents ... avoidable and unavoidable. Hit by lightening (technically you could avoid being outside I suppose) would be generally unavoidable. We've probably all cut a finger or something with a sharp blade at some time, but even those, if you think hard about them, were probably avoidable' Lapses in concentration bringing about a slight misjudgement. Some things can go wrong, but safe practices mitigate risks.


Offline leakyroof

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #75 on: March 01, 2014, 02:06 PM »
I think the longer lasting question is how long till another type of technology or assembly that can be built into a woodworking machine is introduced. Saw Stop is one way to do it, there will be others, And more than just installed on Table Saws.
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Offline leakyroof

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #76 on: March 01, 2014, 03:22 PM »
As much as I dislike "ambulance chaser lawyers" I am interested in the Saw Stop Table Saw.  How many users have experienced false positives where they blade goes into safety with wet wood?

People keep asking that question and it's a non sequitur as far as I see it. How many woodworkers cut wet wood on their tablesaws? I never have. When I buy my wood at the lumber yard, I buy dry, stable wood that isn't going to significantly warp after I bring it home.

But, just for your information, a friend of my bought a SawStop a number of months back. He's a professional woodworker and has put a number of hours on his saw. He has yet to experience any incident that causes the saw to brake.

In the end, the safety feature on the SawStop can be turned off in the event that you might be cutting something that would cause a false positive. And, I'd be using a moisture meter on any wood that I suspected was wet.



I have access to a woodshop that has a sawstop. It has tripped by non human flesh 4 times. It happens on dense exotic woods. Blades are destroyed each time…
. Was it different species each time, or the same?
I like working with Purpleheart, Bubinga , Afromosia and others . Would hate to have to disable the safety mechanism each time for any of the tropical woods that I work with .
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline Tom Bellemare

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #77 on: March 01, 2014, 03:27 PM »
I think the longer lasting question is how long till another type of technology or assembly that can be built into a woodworking machine is introduced. Saw Stop is one way to do it, there will be others, And more than just installed on Table Saws.


I think it already exists.


Tom
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Offline leer

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #78 on: March 01, 2014, 06:09 PM »
That woman made me extremely angry.

She's an actress. I found her attractive but not very convincing.

This discussion got me thinking, are there as many accidents (per user) with sliding table saws compared to others. In other words are sliding table saws safer?
Saw stop is interesting technology. They developed it, and they deserve all the revenue they get from it just as Microsoft and Apple etc. do.
Tim

Right on!  I may have to go buy some SawStop stock.  You see, I am one of those greedy capitalistic pigs that loaded his retirement account with stocks from similarly greedy corporations that make obscene profits.

Although I bought a track saw last Fall, and can get by with my contractor-style saw pretty well, I do still plan to upgrade to a SawStop in the future.  I've used one and they are extemely nice.

I'll gladly give them my money.  I had a table saw accident 18 months ago.  I was fortunate and just lost the tip of my thumb.  I've regained feeling and most days do not think about it.  Until I go to my shop and decide I need to cut a piece of wood on the table saw.   
Lee

Offline NYC Tiny Shop

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #79 on: March 01, 2014, 06:25 PM »
 [off topic]

Leer,
 Sorry to hear of your accident.  Would you care to describe how it happened and how you could have prevented it?  ...for all of us table saw users? Thanks.

Offline Runhard

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #80 on: March 01, 2014, 06:31 PM »
Whenever I have the space for a real wood shop, that is not in my basement, I will either be buying a SawStop or European sliding table saw. I don't know how long that will be, it could still be a few years and by then hopefully there will be more options with blade stopping technology. There may even be that type of technology on the other equipment that I want (bandsaw, jointer, planer and so on). When the time comes that I have the space for these machines I will probably ask for advise. I want the best and safest machines that I can afford, but I also know that being safe is ultametly my responsibility. I can sort of see both sides to this debate, but to each his/her own.

Daniel
Daniel

Offline Festool USA

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #81 on: March 01, 2014, 08:12 PM »
I just wanted to interject that this is a hot topic for many. Let's try to keep things cordial despite any difference of opinions. Thanks.

Offline leer

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #82 on: March 01, 2014, 08:57 PM »
[off topic]

Leer,
 Sorry to hear of your accident.  Would you care to describe how it happened and how you could have prevented it?  ...for all of us table saw users? Thanks.

Sure, I am happy to tell the story.  Hopefully this might make a few people stop and think the next time they use their table saw.

I've been doing woodworking for about 45 years.  I always prided myself on being very careful.  That day it happened I even thought I should not work in the shop.  My wife was out of town, and I just had this funny feeling.  I was cutting strips of exotics for glue-ups to make some cutting boards/platters.  I did not have an outfeed table, rather, I was using a roller stand.  One piece of wood got hung up, and I reached over the blade with my left hand to fix it.  The strip of wood touched the blade, kicked back, and dragged my hand back and thru the blade.  

I was lucky.  It cut off about a 1/2" of my thumb, just shy of hitting the bone.  It happened so fast, I did not feel much pain, and did not even cry our or shed a tear.  As I recall, it felt like I'd been stung, that is the best way I can describe it.  I ran to my shop sink and ran the would under cold water, then ran upstairs to grab a towel out of the drawer. I wrapped the thumb, and went down to the basement to look for the tip of my thumb.  It took a couple minutes, but those minutes seemed like hours.  I ran back upstairs and put it in a ziploc bag with ice.  But what next?  I thought about driving myself to the hospital, buit decided that was probably not a good idea.  I called a neighbor that would typically not be home on a Sunday just after noon, but she answered the phone.  I said something reassuring and calming like "Julie -- I'm OK, but could you take me to the emergency room.  I cut off the end of my thumb?.  She had her car backed out of the garage in about 15 seconds!

The ER team cleaned up the cut, and put me on an IV just to be safe, I guess, in case they thought I'd go into shock.  It was really kind of surreal.  I pulled out my iPhone and took a picture.  Then the hand surgeon came in,and he asked if he could take a picture.  I could post the picture but it looked pretty grisly.  The cut ran diagonally from just above the fingernail on the left side, upwards at an angle that cut the opposite side of the fingernail about midway.  The right side of my thumb sort of came to a point.  The doctor said he could try to fold that flap over, but he said I would lose my sense of feeling if he sewed it over with a flap of skin.  I told him to just cut it off and shape it as needed for healing up pretty evenly.  So I had no surgery, per se, they just cleaned the would, and bandaged it, and sent me home.  That simple procedure cost $4000.  Fortunately, it was covered 100% by insurance.

Most people do not notice it.  I was extremely lucky.  I could have easily lost a few fingers, and if I had my wrist go thru the blade, possibly lose my hand. It was completely healed in about 6 weeks, as I recall.  It was a little tender for a few months, but I went to physical therapy a couple times where they showed me exercises to do, and steps to take to toughen up the wound, so I could pick things up and get my feeling back.  After the wound healed, fingerprints grew onto and over the would.  That kind of creeped out my wife!

As I mentioned, I do not think of it most days, or when I go to my shop and use the table saw.  But going into the shop to maybe do other tasks, like using the lathe, I just don't think about it much.

I will buy a SawStop.  I do not want to start an argument with anyone about what the company has done, or has not done.  Once you have an injury like this, it changes you forever.  PERIOD.  

I do treat "Sting" with a healthy dose of respect and caution (I nicknamed the saw Sting because that is what it did to me).  I bought a set of two GRR-Rippers, which are fantastic push blocks.  It is really a whole system.  I also use them on my jointer.  But until I own a SawStop, I will not feel as safe as I want. And that is not something you can appreciate until you've had an accident on a table saw or any saw, for that matter.

I still have moments when I think about the accident.  I actually cringe, but it is not so much what I did to my thumb, rather, what I could have done that might have prevented me from doing woodworking any more, as well as a lot of other physical activities I enjoy. These reactions may fade over time, but I am not sure I want it to.  I am much more safety conscious than before, and I always thought I was pretty safety-oriented.

It can happen to anyone, and it happens in the blink of an eye.

« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 09:01 PM by leer »
Lee

Offline andvari

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #83 on: March 01, 2014, 09:37 PM »
It appears to me lawyers nationwide are latching on to table saw injuries as a source of revenue. A google search turned up several advertisements on the topic.

Here's a link to a couple. The first one mentioned a riving knife case as well.

http://www.schmidtlaw.com/table-saw-injury-lawyer/

http://www.edwardsfirm.com/Defective-Products/Table-Saw-Accidents.shtml
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Offline Runhard

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #84 on: March 01, 2014, 10:13 PM »
Whenever I have the space for a real wood shop, that is not in my basement, I will either be buying a SawStop or European sliding table saw. I don't know how long that will be, it could still be a few years and by then hopefully there will be more options with blade stopping technology. There may even be that type of technology on the other equipment that I want (bandsaw, jointer, planer and so on). When the time comes that I have the space for these machines I will probably ask for advise. I want the best and safest machines that I can afford, but I also know that being safe is ultametly my responsibility. I can sort of see both sides to this debate, but to each his/her own.

Daniel

I don't know if it is okay to show this picture or not (viewer beware!) but this is why I want a sawstop when I'm ready to purchase a TS. If there are other options and technologies available when I make my purchase, I will consider those as well. The below picture is of my brothers left hand, thankfully he is right handed, after his TS accident:



Daniel

Offline Kev

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #85 on: March 01, 2014, 10:43 PM »
Runhard, that's truly gruesome. The poor guy.

Was this another example of what happens when you put your hand near the moving blade? How did it happen?

Kev

Offline leakyroof

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #86 on: March 01, 2014, 10:59 PM »
I think the longer lasting question is how long till another type of technology or assembly that can be built into a woodworking machine is introduced. Saw Stop is one way to do it, there will be others, And more than just installed on Table Saws.


I think it already exists.


Tom
. Looks like he's either stalled or maybe in further development since he has no later update than mid 2012 from what I saw. Had an earlier post somewhere on the web a few years back.
Still interested in his product though.  [cool]
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Offline NYC Tiny Shop

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #87 on: March 01, 2014, 11:00 PM »
Leer,
  Thanks.  Your story is helpful.  I will be more careful and be sure to rethink the use of my rollers as an out-feed for my table saw.

Offline leer

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #88 on: March 01, 2014, 11:29 PM »
"NYC",

Glad to share my story.  I truly hope it maybe is shocking enough to make someone think more about safety, without being too gruesome.

Re: "outfeed rollers":  One thing I did when I bought my track saw was to make myself a "super-sized" MFT.  I covered it here a few months ago, I made it from a full sheet of MDF, but milled it down to 36" x 84" so it fit better in my small shop.  I built it to double as an outfeed table for my table saw.  Because my floor is not perfectly level, I always had issues with roller stand if my saw just happened to be in a slightly different spot.  I never went to the trouble to fine tune the roller stand height.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 11:36 PM by leer »
Lee

Offline Runhard

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #89 on: March 01, 2014, 11:37 PM »
Runhard, that's truly gruesome. The poor guy.

Was this another example of what happens when you put your hand near the moving blade? How did it happen?

Kev

I would have to ask him again to get the exact details, it was probably 10 years ago. I think that he said he was pushing the wood through and had his left hand on the wood and somehow the blade pulled the wood through real fast and he could not pull his hand back fast enough. I know it took him a long time to recover. I feel bad for him because he was also servilely burned on his chest when he was 13 and spent at least 6 months in the hospital!
Daniel

Offline Slappy

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #90 on: March 01, 2014, 11:44 PM »
"NYC",

Glad to share my story.  I truly hope it maybe is shocking enough to make someone think more about safety, without being too gruesome.

Re: "outfeed rollers":  One thing I did when I bought my track saw was to make myself a "super-sized" MFT.  I covered it here a few months ago, I made it from a full sheet of MDF, but milled it down to 36" x 84" so it fit better in my small shop.  I built it to double as an outfeed table for my table saw.  Because my floor is not perfectly level, I always had issues with roller stand if my saw just happened to be in a slightly different spot.  I never went to the trouble to fine tune the roller stand height.
I've read a lot of threads about rollers as out feeds for Table Saws  , many had really bad results
Mike

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Offline Upscale

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #91 on: March 02, 2014, 12:43 AM »
I have access to a woodshop that has a sawstop. It has tripped by non human flesh 4 times. It happens on dense exotic woods. Blades are destroyed each time…

Just out of interest's sake, has that Shop queried the SawStop company when that has happened? I do know that SawStop has frequently provided free replacements of their brake to people that have experienced false positives.

Last question, if this has been happening more than once with this dense exotic wood, why have they not turned off the safety feature when using this wood? SawStop is in the market to sell their products and I've heard that they've been very good with their customer service. It sounds a little questionable to me to be honest.

Offline Kev

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #92 on: March 02, 2014, 03:04 AM »
I have access to a woodshop that has a sawstop. It has tripped by non human flesh 4 times. It happens on dense exotic woods. Blades are destroyed each time…

Just out of interest's sake, has that Shop queried the SawStop company when that has happened? I do know that SawStop has frequently provided free replacements of their brake to people that have experienced false positives.

Last question, if this has been happening more than once with this dense exotic wood, why have they not turned off the safety feature when using this wood? SawStop is in the market to sell their products and I've heard that they've been very good with their customer service. It sounds a little questionable to me to be honest.

I'm going to kick of with an ignorant assumption first, based on only partial knowledge ... I'm assuming having the brake retract the blade isn't a zero cost event. After the first false positive replacement cost I fear there'll be a tendency for people to to turn of the safety feature off.

I hope the saw makes a loud beeping sound or something when the safety is disengaged - ooops, that feature is mine ... it'll cost you Gass ... I think $50M is about right for 10 seconds of thought.

Anyway, it's not much of a safety feature if you can turn it off when dealing with difficult material. The behaviour of a safety feature needs to be consistent. Imagine becoming complacent because you have a safety feature - then forget you've turned it off ... that's like forgetting to pack the parachute!


Offline Upscale

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #93 on: March 02, 2014, 04:54 AM »
I'm going to kick of with an ignorant assumption first, based on only partial knowledge ... I'm assuming having the brake retract the blade isn't a zero cost event. After the first false positive replacement cost I fear there'll be a tendency for people to to turn of the safety feature off.

When the blade retracts, the brake also clamps down and stops the blade spinning almost immediately. The blade is damaged beyond repair. That retraction and the blade stopped spinning together *are* the safety feature.

You're assuming that everybody is going to experience false postives. From what I've read and been told by several SawStop users, the majority of people don't experience them.

Quote
Anyway, it's not much of a safety feature if you can turn it off when dealing with difficult material. The behaviour of a safety feature needs to be consistent. Imagine becoming complacent because you have a safety feature - then forget you've turned it off ... that's like forgetting to pack the parachute!

A small electrical current is supplied to the blade and that current is continuously monitored. If the saw detects a change in the current such as when a hand comes in contact with the blade, the safety feature is activated. There's a number of instances where some materials being cut can affect the monitored voltage, so it's necessary to turn the safety feature off.

Offline bruegf

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #94 on: March 02, 2014, 07:46 AM »
I think the longer lasting question is how long till another type of technology or assembly that can be built into a woodworking machine is introduced. Saw Stop is one way to do it, there will be others, And more than just installed on Table Saws.


I think it already exists.


Tom

Site says it stops the blade in an 1/8 of second.  I think SS stops in .005 seconds.    Not sure what the blade rpm on various saws really is, but for the sake of discussion lets assume 3450 which is 57.5 rotations per second.   With an 80 tooth blade that means that 460 teeth will zip past your finger in one second.

If the blade stops in 1/8 second, you would have approx 57 teeth that would contact your finger if it traveled into the blade's path.   If the blade stops in 5 ms you would have only 2.3 teeth that would contact your finger, assuming the blade does not move.   With the SS, as the brake fires, the blade stops in 5ms and the blade is dropped below the table surface at the same time the brake is stopping the blade, so I'm guessing in reality its likely only one tooth has a shot to cut your finger.

The brake in the link isn't even in the same league as the SS technology, but definitely better than nothing when things go wrong.

Fred

Fred

Offline bruegf

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #95 on: March 02, 2014, 08:07 AM »
I'm going to kick of with an ignorant assumption first, based on only partial knowledge ... I'm assuming having the brake retract the blade isn't a zero cost event. After the first false positive replacement cost I fear there'll be a tendency for people to to turn of the safety feature off.

I hope the saw makes a loud beeping sound or something when the safety is disengaged - ooops, that feature is mine ... it'll cost you Gass ... I think $50M is about right for 10 seconds of thought.

Anyway, it's not much of a safety feature if you can turn it off when dealing with difficult material. The behaviour of a safety feature needs to be consistent. Imagine becoming complacent because you have a safety feature - then forget you've turned it off ... that's like forgetting to pack the parachute!

It is not possible to (as far as I know) to disable the brake on a SS permanently.   The saw will not turn on w/o a functioning brake cartridge installed and if you want the brake disable (e.g. to cut aluminum or wet wood) you have to disable it each time you start the motor (which is a different action from turning on the saw) so your beeping idea is superfluous.   In addition, the brake is just one of several safety related features of the saw.

Might be worth actually taking a careful look at the product before bashing it.   In all honesty your posts on this topic (unlike your posts on other topics) so remind me of the Festool bashing you see on some of the other woodworking sites.   You really should try to separate you obvious dislike of the inventor from the merits of the product and technology.

Fred
Fred

Offline Kev

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #96 on: March 02, 2014, 09:24 AM »
I'm going to kick of with an ignorant assumption first, based on only partial knowledge ... I'm assuming having the brake retract the blade isn't a zero cost event. After the first false positive replacement cost I fear there'll be a tendency for people to to turn of the safety feature off.

I hope the saw makes a loud beeping sound or something when the safety is disengaged - ooops, that feature is mine ... it'll cost you Gass ... I think $50M is about right for 10 seconds of thought.

Anyway, it's not much of a safety feature if you can turn it off when dealing with difficult material. The behaviour of a safety feature needs to be consistent. Imagine becoming complacent because you have a safety feature - then forget you've turned it off ... that's like forgetting to pack the parachute!

It is not possible to (as far as I know) to disable the brake on a SS permanently.   The saw will not turn on w/o a functioning brake cartridge installed and if you want the brake disable (e.g. to cut aluminum or wet wood) you have to disable it each time you start the motor (which is a different action from turning on the saw) so your beeping idea is superfluous.   In addition, the brake is just one of several safety related features of the saw.

Might be worth actually taking a careful look at the product before bashing it.   In all honesty your posts on this topic (unlike your posts on other topics) so remind me of the Festool bashing you see on some of the other woodworking sites.   You really should try to separate you obvious dislike of the inventor from the merits of the product and technology.

Fred

Thanks Fred, I've gone from a smile to a full grin [big grin]

I'm glad there's other safety features ... I still hate it, will never touch it ... think the technology is foolish and will cause more accidents through complacency that it'll avoid.

Glad for you that you like it - be happy with that [wink]

It is interesting that you would preach "taking a careful look", but still have to disclaim you points with "(as far as I know)" ... good research there! [smile]


Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #97 on: March 02, 2014, 09:33 AM »


+1 . What Peter, and Shane posted.

Offline Rob Z

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #98 on: March 02, 2014, 09:48 AM »
bruegf

I talked about this with Tom  Bellemare at length a couple years ago when he first learned about Whirlwind Tools .  We thought the 1/8 second stop time is likely okay because that is triggered long before a body part touches the blade. Assuming one isn't feeding the material through the blade at an unreasonably fast rate, it seems as if the blade will be stopped before the body part makes it to the blade.  An eighth of a second seems like a lot compared to milliseconds for SS, but in this case with the rate of feed vs distance from the blade at the time the technology triggers the stopping mechanism , it seems that it will work.

And with the option to install this on a variety of saws and without the need for a manufacturer to re-engineer their equipment , I think this thing will be a success if it comes to market.  I'd buy one immediately.

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #99 on: March 02, 2014, 10:04 AM »

I'm glad there's other safety features ... I still hate it, will never touch it ... think the technology is foolish and will cause more accidents through complacency that it'll avoid.

Glad for you that you like it - be happy with that [wink]

It is interesting that you would preach "taking a careful look", but still have to disclaim you points with "(as far as I know)" ... good research there! [smile]



Kev, I understand your view point.  My view on this topic is different (and yet I don't own a Saw Stop saw).  Here's my problem with your take on this.  Guys like yourself, hobbyist woodworkers, are at some risk of table saw injuries.  Now consider how much the risk goes up for professionals like me, and I'm only a moderate table saw user.  Guys that work in a cabinet shop that can use table saws all day long, everyday are at far greater risk than I am.  Tradesman and cabinet shop workers would benefit from some extra protection, so would you.  

As for the Saw Stop causing more accidents that it prevents out of complacency, sorry I don't buy it.  I agree it may cause some people to have lees fear of the saw and that might lead to some small number of accidents.  Here's the kicker when it comes to complacency, I and a great number of table saw users become complacent without the Saw Stop safety feature.  When this safety feature become practical for portable table saws I will likely jump on board.              
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline bruegf

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #100 on: March 02, 2014, 10:27 AM »
I'm glad there's other safety features ... I still hate it, will never touch it ... think the technology is foolish and will cause more accidents through complacency that it'll avoid.
That's the great thing about free markets and democracies, you are free to hate it, and just as free to not buy it.   The only point I've been trying to make, is the technology is just another level of insurance.   I have a dislike of car, home, and medical insurance companies, I still buy insurance policies, just because "stuff" happens not matter how careful you are and happens even more often if you not careful.  Hopefully I'll never need any of them again, but its very unlikely so I continue to pay for insurance.  

I'd like to see the statistics that show that because the brake can help minimize the impact of table saw accidents people will have more accidents because the technology makes them more complacent.  I'm still just as afraid of the table saw as I always have been.  One data point doesn't a statistic make, so again, maybe I'm wrong but that sounds like one giant leap of an assumption.  One of the reasons I like my TS55 so much is that my hands are on the saw away from the blade, and not on the work piece near the blade.

It is interesting that you would preach "taking a careful look", but still have to disclaim you points with "(as far as I know)" ... good research there! [smile]

I KNOW that you can't override the brake permanently by removing it or leaving a switch in the wrong position such that brake is disabled the next time you use the saw and don't remember or know it.   The reason I qualified it with an "as far as I know" is that I don't know if there's a mod that can be made to the control module or brake cartridge, or if for some idiotic reason there's someone on ebay or elsewhere selling an override.   I'm smart enough to know that I don't know everything, and that even some of the things I think I know for sure are incorrect, or have become incorrect since I first learned about it.   Sorry that I'm not as all knowing as you are, but there it is.  And FYI, I did research the saw for over a year before I finally convinced myself to spend the money for it, including reading reviews, looking at info on the SS site, using the saw in the store, attending a couple of live "hot dog" demos, and mining info from woodworking forums and opinions from other woodworkers, so I'd be willing to bet that I've taken a much longer and careful look at the saw and technology than you have, but I again since I don't know how carefully you've looked at it, again, maybe I'm wrong.  

Fred

Fred

Offline bruegf

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #101 on: March 02, 2014, 10:31 AM »
bruegf

I talked about this with Tom  Bellemare at length a couple years ago when he first learned about Whirlwind Tools .  We thought the 1/8 second stop time is likely okay because that is triggered long before a body part touches the blade. Assuming one isn't feeding the material through the blade at an unreasonably fast rate, it seems as if the blade will be stopped before the body part makes it to the blade.  An eighth of a second seems like a lot compared to milliseconds for SS, but in this case with the rate of feed vs distance from the blade at the time the technology triggers the stopping mechanism , it seems that it will work.

And with the option to install this on a variety of saws and without the need for a manufacturer to re-engineer their equipment , I think this thing will be a success if it comes to market.  I'd buy one immediately.

Yes, I saw that too, and for normal use where I'm feeding wood into the blade, my guess is that it would work fine.   Where I question how effective it would be is the case like kick back where it happens so quickly that you don't even realize it until after the event is over.   Unlike some of the others involved in this discussion, I'm not knocking the technology, like the SS, I think its far better than nothing, and I do like the fact that unlike SS this can be retofitted to existing saws and other tools.

Fred
Fred

Offline bruegf

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #102 on: March 02, 2014, 10:35 AM »

I'm glad there's other safety features ... I still hate it, will never touch it ... think the technology is foolish and will cause more accidents through complacency that it'll avoid.

Glad for you that you like it - be happy with that [wink]

It is interesting that you would preach "taking a careful look", but still have to disclaim you points with "(as far as I know)" ... good research there! [smile]



Kev, I understand your view point.  My view on this topic is different (and yet I don't own a Saw Stop saw).  Here's my problem with your take on this.  Guys like yourself, hobbyist woodworkers, are at some risk of table saw injuries.  Now consider how much the risk goes up for professionals like me, and I'm only a moderate table saw user.  Guys that work in a cabinet shop that can use table saws all day long, everyday are at far greater risk than I am.  Tradesman and cabinet shop workers would benefit from some extra protection, so would you.  

As for the Saw Stop causing more accidents that it prevents out of complacency, sorry I don't buy it.  I agree it may cause some people to have lees fear of the saw and that might lead to some small number of accidents.  Here's the kicker when it comes to complacency, I and a great number of table saw users become complacent without the Saw Stop safety feature.  When this safety feature become practical for portable table saws I will likely jump on board.              

Well said Brice, I agree!   I think the old saying "familiarity breeds contempt" or in our case "familiarity breeds complacency" is far more likely than having a safety device causing complacency.

Fred
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 10:37 AM by bruegf »
Fred

Offline bruegf

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #103 on: March 02, 2014, 11:04 AM »

I'm glad there's other safety features ... I still hate it, will never touch it ... think the technology is foolish and will cause more accidents through complacency that it'll avoid.

Glad for you that you like it - be happy with that [wink]

It is interesting that you would preach "taking a careful look", but still have to disclaim you points with "(as far as I know)" ... good research there! [smile]



Kev, I understand your view point.  My view on this topic is different (and yet I don't own a Saw Stop saw).  Here's my problem with your take on this.  Guys like yourself, hobbyist woodworkers, are at some risk of table saw injuries.  Now consider how much the risk goes up for professionals like me, and I'm only a moderate table saw user.  Guys that work in a cabinet shop that can use table saws all day long, everyday are at far greater risk than I am.  Tradesman and cabinet shop workers would benefit from some extra protection, so would you.  

As for the Saw Stop causing more accidents that it prevents out of complacency, sorry I don't buy it.  I agree it may cause some people to have lees fear of the saw and that might lead to some small number of accidents.  Here's the kicker when it comes to complacency, I and a great number of table saw users become complacent without the Saw Stop safety feature.  When this safety feature become practical for portable table saws I will likely jump on board.              


Well said Brice, I agree!   I think the old saying "familiarity breeds contempt" or in our case "familiarity breeds complacency" is far more likely than having a safety device causing complacency.

And even if complacency wasn't a factor, the guys that work in a cabinet shop that use table saws all day long, everyday are at far greater risk just because they spend so much more time at the saw than the rest of us.

Fred


<<edited to move response out of quote.  P.Halle>>
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 11:23 AM by Peter Halle »
Fred

Offline leakyroof

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #104 on: March 02, 2014, 12:37 PM »
The ad campaign that Saw Stop used a couple of years ago was very effective with my wife. She STILL wants me to get rid of my Unisaw and its aftermarket over arm blade guard and replace it with the Saw Stop Table Saw. [eek]
 Interesting problem though, the Saw Stop 52" model, like the newer Powermatic and other saws has a wider table foot print than my 2005 Unisaw. So I would have to really rearrange my basement shop to accommodate any of the newer saws since they all seem to be about 10" wider than what I have currently. [mad]
I could opt for a 36" range model since I don't big Cab parts that often , but I'm not thrilled that I'm limiting my cutting ability to fit any newer saw into my space.
This is why I'm waiting to see where the Whirlwind option shakes out at.
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline bruegf

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Re: Re: Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #105 on: March 02, 2014, 01:12 PM »
Unfortunately the only choice we may have in the future is to buy a saw with his technology or not buy a table saw. That's really his endgame. He's been heavily lobbying the CPSC to get his technology,  or 'other technology'  mandated for any new manufactured saw.

There is no other tech I know of that is currently viable. Whirlwind looks great, but as stated previously there has been no real public movement in many months. If sensing technology is mandated, then it's Gass or the manufacturers have to come up with something on their own. Or quit. With Gass being a patent lawyer, and the USPTO being so utterly incompetent (if you follow the tech sector you already know this), how likely is it that a competing technology could be produced in a short enough time frame that doesn't infringe on his patents and satisfies the mandate?

It can be hard to separate the man from the machine with the manner in which he has operated. He is Sawstop. I think it is an absolute fantastic job of innovation. I'm pretty sure when I am at an opportunity to upgrade my saw it will have that technology. I don't require it, but view it as a last gasp of protection beyond my honed fear of that blade.

I don't think there has been a Sawstop thread on the Internet that hasn't devolved into a shouting match, and this is no different.

I'd bet in time, because of the nature of our society and its tendency towards litigation, you may be right about the future.   I don't like this being mandated, but even if it is, I'd bet once it is there will be other innovations out there in a short time that will offer other alternatives and will help keep the price of adding the technology to products down.  If there's money to be made, alternatives will appear, I have no doubt.   I'd actually like to own some Whirlwind stock (bought just before the brake feature is mandated) - I'd be willing to bet the stock would skyrocket in value.

It really is a shame that none of the other companies the technology was offered to was forward thinking enough to use it.   Maybe SS's licensing options were too expensive, or maybe none of them took the technology seriously, I have no idea. but it would have avoided all the nonsense that swirls around this now.

It can be hard to separate the man/company from the engineering and I'm guilty of that myself.   I'm not an Apple fan.  After the experience I had from the one Apple product I bought, I've never even considered buying another.   My motto is "you can buy better but you can't pay more".   No I don't want to getting into an argument about the merits of Apple and their products, and I'm more than willing to agree that Apple has many good products, some impressive innovation, and for some groups of users they may well be the best option.   But I still don't like Apple (or Microsoft for that matter, but that's a different story).

You're right about SS threads, just like some of the other forums when Festool is mentioned.   Its a shame the conversation can't be kept to logical, rational discussion of the merits, but apparently it's difficult for some to separate their emotion from the discussion.

Fred

Fred

Offline Sparktrician

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Re: Re: Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #106 on: March 02, 2014, 03:58 PM »
It can be hard to separate the man/company from the engineering...
 

That's the easy part for me.  I recognize that the Sawstop saws incorporate high quality and advanced technology.  The flip side is that I have no use for someone that makes it so difficult to incorporate the technology without significantly lining his pockets, and when that fails, uses governmental regulation processes to shove the technology and costs up the public's bumper.  If it's THAT good, I'd suggest that it could be a pro bono contribution to the industry.  I'd be far more inclined to be supportive in that case. 

- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Offline Upscale

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Re: Re: Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #107 on: March 02, 2014, 05:32 PM »
If it's THAT good, I'd suggest that it could be a pro bono contribution to the industry.  I'd be far more inclined to be supportive in that case. 

Really??? If you invented the SawStop and put considerable time, effort and money into its creation, would you think about donating it to the industry? If you say "yes", then you're more of of a giving person that I could ever be. And, I consider myself a generous person in a number of instances. The only thoughts I'd be having is how can I market this device and how can it make money for me.

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re:
« Reply #108 on: March 02, 2014, 06:37 PM »
I won't ever begrudge someone for making themselves a good living. The lobbying is what is a bit too much for me, and being an expert witness in trials against the companies that turned him down.

Unfortunately this is what it takes to move the safety standard forward in this industry.  Really, think about that, here's a device that could save an untold number of people from gruesome/debilitating injuries and users and the industry is fighting it because of money.     
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Offline Sparktrician

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Re: Re: Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #109 on: March 02, 2014, 07:22 PM »
If it's THAT good, I'd suggest that it could be a pro bono contribution to the industry.  I'd be far more inclined to be supportive in that case. 

Really??? If you invented the SawStop and put considerable time, effort and money into its creation, would you think about donating it to the industry? If you say "yes", then you're more of of a giving person that I could ever be. And, I consider myself a generous person in a number of instances. The only thoughts I'd be having is how can I market this device and how can it make money for me.


Making a decent return on investment is one thing.  Tying the concept up as tightly in patents as he has and testifying against those that choose to not use his invention is something else entirely.  His actions seem almost Quixotic.  I don't doubt that his invention can save people from significant injuries, but his attitude, frankly, is a major strike against him. 

- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Offline Kev

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #110 on: March 02, 2014, 07:58 PM »
This is probably the nub of it for me - profiting from safety. There should always be generous incentives to make the world a better place - but there should be reasonable upper limits on the level of exploitation possible.
If the US were to specifically mandate saw stop technology to be used in all table saws, they should pay for the technology and provide it free of royalties, etc to manufacturers ...

Call me a hippie - but I see the world differently ... I'd also like to see a world not based on greed and money, but please don't ask me for the overnight solution.

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #111 on: March 02, 2014, 08:29 PM »
I just visited Facebook and guess what;  a posting from a legal firm about table saw injuries.

Lucky me.

Offline Kev

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #112 on: March 03, 2014, 03:52 AM »

I'm glad there's other safety features ... I still hate it, will never touch it ... think the technology is foolish and will cause more accidents through complacency that it'll avoid.

Glad for you that you like it - be happy with that [wink]

It is interesting that you would preach "taking a careful look", but still have to disclaim you points with "(as far as I know)" ... good research there! [smile]



Kev, I understand your view point.  My view on this topic is different (and yet I don't own a Saw Stop saw).  Here's my problem with your take on this.  Guys like yourself, hobbyist woodworkers, are at some risk of table saw injuries.  Now consider how much the risk goes up for professionals like me, and I'm only a moderate table saw user.  Guys that work in a cabinet shop that can use table saws all day long, everyday are at far greater risk than I am.  Tradesman and cabinet shop workers would benefit from some extra protection, so would you.  

As for the Saw Stop causing more accidents that it prevents out of complacency, sorry I don't buy it.  I agree it may cause some people to have lees fear of the saw and that might lead to some small number of accidents.  Here's the kicker when it comes to complacency, I and a great number of table saw users become complacent without the Saw Stop safety feature.  When this safety feature become practical for portable table saws I will likely jump on board.              

Time will tell ... and that'll be the case with many of the saw stop related things (both safety and politics).

To me a real safety mechanism would take away any need for hands to go near the blade for any reason ... maybe remote waldo arms [wink] ... then you could use them with the bandsaw, spindle moulder, planer !!


Offline jonathan-m

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #113 on: March 03, 2014, 04:28 AM »
I really don't "get" all the resentment towards sawstop regardless of how the inventor/CEO or their marketing campaigns portray themselves.

This is a great technology and unless or until there's something better out there right now, every manufacturer that takes health and safety serious, should strive to license this.
How on earth can extra safety measures ever be a bad thing?

I wonder if any of those who are opposing sawstop so vocally think they are the one that'll never slip or have an accident. Will they still be so vocal when they run their hand in a spinning blade in that split second of distraction?
I perfectly respect personal choice. And those who choose to ignore safety measures will always still have that choice. But like others have already said, there's also a responsibility to your fellow woodworker as well. Some have to work many hours a day with the table saw, and have to do it on bad equipment because their boss is too cheap. Holding back general safety measures is just irresponsible. It's simply better for it to be there with the possibility for it to be turned off, than not be there at all. If not for yourself, for someone else who has to work in less than optimal circumstances.

Some things are more important than pride or standing by some or other principal in my humble opinion. General health care is, or at least should be the number one priority for the government, manufacturers and consumers alike.

In short it's my personal opinion that the end user is a clear winner here. This is a great innovation/technology which every woodworker should support to push awareness and the industry in general forward.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 05:31 AM by jonathan-m »
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Offline Kev

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #114 on: March 03, 2014, 05:51 AM »
I really don't "get" all the resentment towards sawstop regardless of how the inventor/CEO or their marketing campaigns portray themselves.

This is a great technology and unless or until there's something better out there right now, every manufacturer that takes health and safety serious, should strive to license this.
How on earth can extra safety measures ever be a bad thing?
I wonder if any of those who are opposing sawstop think they are the one that'll never slip or have an accident. Will they still be so vocal when they run their hand in a spinning blade in that split second of distraction?

Some things are more important than pride or standing by some or other principal in my humble opinion. General health care is, or at least should be the number one priority for both for manufacturers and consumers alike.

Just follow your thinking through to the natural conclusion ... every "potentially" dangerous item will fall into "protect the user at any cost" ... meaning that at some point in the future mr average will never be able to afford woodworking (or any other hobby that involves something sharp, heavy, fast moving, etc). If Gass gets saw stop mandated, planer stop, spindle stop and bandsaw stop will be out within months.

When it comes to solving a problem you deal with the WHY first and the WHAT second. Here we have a solution the deals with the WHAT - someone stuck a body part in a blade ... instead of the WHY - their hands or some other body part were near the blade. Saw stop does not deal with projectiles or anything of that sort. Now here on the FOG most people seem to be reasonably savvy, but there'll be people out there buying saw stops thinking that the can never be injured in any way.

It's very clear to me that a large part of the problem in the US with table saws could be significantly addressed with education.

Woodworking can be a dangerous profession, heck ... getting the trees down in the first place is one of the most dangerous jobs in existence!

Consider ...

I don't expect my bicycle to stop me riding into a bus (yes, obviously on this thread a number of you wish I would ride into a bus), if I was at fault it would be my own stupid fault, if the bus hit me, they're at fault of course. If someone invents a bus avoidance system for a bicycle (not cars, not cliffs, not dogs, etc) that quadruples the prices of a cheap bike and could add thousands to an expensive bike I would be extremely upset if the cost and technology was forced on me. I would expect a better solution to be something that monitored attention and potentially direction of vision ... then you have something that would aid in avoiding many things, but could also be applied to other situations (dealing with the WHY - lack of attention or a distraction, rather that a WHAT ... hitting a bus).

... and before anyone starts back on the seat belt analogy - it solves a WHAT, not a WHY. Seat belts today are still not much more sophisticated than tying yourself to a buggy with a rope (and a set belt in a car has never saved a baby in a pram on a crossing).

Maybe our time on this thread would be better spent constructing a FOG top 20 safety tips for using a table saw! [big grin]




Offline RonWen

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #115 on: March 03, 2014, 08:30 AM »
I just visited Facebook and guess what;  a posting from a legal firm about table saw injuries.

Lucky me.

It was only a matter of time for these ads. Ambulance chasers just can't overlook this "low hanging fruit" when promoting their skills.

 I can't imagine that SawStop would have connection with promoting these types of lawsuits -- they are just simply smarter than that.

Offline dpeagles

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #116 on: March 03, 2014, 10:23 AM »
OK, here we have it - any table saw that can't avoid damaging a sausage as it is intentionally pushed through the blade is defective. You should be a lawyer.

Making fun of his statement doesn't make it any less valid.  If a manufacturer chooses not to offer an available safety device that could have prevented an accident, the question is how much responsibility do they share for the end result.  Hint:  the answer is not none and it's not all. 

FUN?

I am being deadly serious. The only proof I've seen is that a saw stop can protect a sausage if it is slowly moved towards the blade. I have no solid evidence that it's protect against anything else.

There's nothing to protect manufacturers against uneducated, clumsy, drunk, tired, distracted, negligent, drugged, angry or other operation of a table saw ... or any other tool for that matter - other than counter legal cases. AWESOME!

If people want to buy a saw stop, good for them!

People comparing a saw stop to a seat belt need to think a little broader ... I wear a seat belt because there are so many morons on the road drinking coffee and chatting on the phone that can kill me. I'm not afraid that someone will come into my workspace, take the guard off my saw and push my hand into it. I know NOT TO PUT MY HAND NEAR A FAST SPINNING BLADE.

Anyone that thinks the correct approach to workshop safety is to mandate saw stop or make it viable to sue a table saw manufacturer for not offering saw stop technology should also think it necessary to ban bandsaws, spindle moulders, planers, etc ... they're all dangerous tools if handled incorrectly. Just like guns! (which I personally think should have DNA encoding to the owner to prevent anyone else ever firing them ... and that on every weapon in existence - a minor expense!).

How many of the 30,000 accidents happen without a push stick? without a blade guard? using a dado blade set? inadequate lighting?

Start down this path and the tool world will split as the US legal system has a field day crippling and profiting from the US tool market ... at which point all non US tool manufacturers will probably exit the US market.

I don't really care - I don't live in the US, but can't you see what you're doing here?






By this line of thinking, why should steel workers wear safety lines to prevent a fall.  They are too good to fall to their death.  Why should roofers wear safety lines?  They are too good to fall off the roof.   Yet over and over people fall off high objects even with years of experience.

Ever had a motorcycle rider say " I'm not worried, most of those hurt on motorcycles have been drinking so I always ride sober".  Whatever you have to tell yourself to convince yourself it will never happen to you.

Like I said, I don't own sawstop but I certainly see the positive aspects of their design.

Offline Tom Bellemare

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #117 on: March 03, 2014, 10:49 AM »
I have a few friends and a sister-in-law that are lawyers. Two of them are personal injury attorneys (read, ambulance chasers), one has largely specialized in intellectual property protection, one is a big shot corporate attorney in La Jolla, and the other is just getting started.

The Bar requires members to engage in continuing education periodically. The IP protector once told me that prominent among those courses were ones that emphasize the "Pain & Suffering" du jour. One year, it was all about mesothelioma, then all about mutant mold, and on and on...

I point this out because it seems to me that it's sort of part of the way our legal system is structured that there is encouragement for our second highest profession to be dragged into the mud if they aren't careful.

The whole mold scare started a few miles from here in the house of a recently divorced marketing expert. Apparently, she wanted to cash out of the house that she won in the separation of assets. The TX State Bar blew it and those "horribly evil and deadly" spores all over the state and beyond. Soon, the insurance companies followed suit (pun intended).


Tom
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Offline Festool USA

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Re: Lawyer Table Saw TV Ad
« Reply #118 on: March 03, 2014, 10:56 AM »
Everyone, I think this has run its course and opinions have been expressed. I'm going to lock the thread so we can get back to talking tools rather than law.  [wink]

Shane