Author Topic: Substrate for veneer panel  (Read 3006 times)

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Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3594
Substrate for veneer panel
« on: February 22, 2016, 12:10 PM »
I was looking into veneering some panels for a set of small doors on a custom built in cabinet I'm thinking of doing.  This being my first adventure in wood veneering, I just had a question about substrate.  Ideally I wanted to get the panel close to a 1/4" width so I could use a conventional rail and stile bit on the frame.  But if I were to use, say, an 1/8" sheet of Baltic birch (I don't believe they make 3/16"), I think I would come up well short of 1/4" given how thin the veneer is.  Or can you make up the difference using a thicker backing veneer?

In the end I could always use a square frame construction and cut the slot myself to the proper width of the panel, but I just wanted to see what my options were.
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Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5733
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Substrate for veneer panel
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2016, 12:28 PM »
Go to a local supplier with a caliper and a couple pieces of veneer. The 1/4" is most likely undersized, the veneer may get you to 1/4". Seeing as you are veneering, I would also check the medium or high density MDF.

Tom

Offline Jesse Cloud

  • Posts: 1722
  • Festooling at the end of a dirt road in New Mexico
Re: Substrate for veneer panel
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2016, 01:39 PM »
Most veneer these days is about 1/32 thick, though it does vary.  Here in New Mexico, Home Depot carries two varieties of MDF, one is 1/4 inch and the other is undersized.  So getting close to 1/4 inch is very possible.

With a thin substrate, it is essential that you veneer both sides and best to do it at the same time.  With all the moisture from the glue, the mdf really wants to bow if one side is wet and one is dry.

Its also a good idea to buy all the substrate and veneer you need at once.  The next lot of veneer or substrate at the store may vary from the first.

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Substrate for veneer panel
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2016, 03:11 PM »
The boat builder suppliers has fiberglass face sheets over end grain balsa.
The stuff is not cheap, but they do almost any dimesion.

Offline Tayler_mann

  • Posts: 415
Re: Substrate for veneer panel
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2016, 08:29 PM »
If it is just a shaker style door have you ever thought of going thicker? I am a fan of 6/4 and half or 5/4 and 3/8. Than just get a groove set and you can make your grove whatever you want to. It's a little more work to set up the router table, which I am assuming is being used, since you could easily find a door blade for a shaper to accommodate the thicknesses. Look at white side they have some nice younger and groove sets as well.

If you want 1/4 just take to sheets of 1/8 and veneer those and both sides all at the same time. It'll put you at about 5/16 or a little over with the veneer. I've also became a large fan of thicker veneer so maybe you could find some 1/16" flat cut veneer and you would be at 1/4" with that as well. Ive even found some 3/32" veneer out there.

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3594
Re: Substrate for veneer panel
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2016, 11:16 AM »
Thanks.  I don't work with MDF that often, so I didn't realize they made it in nominal sized 1/4" that could be veneered up to an actual 1/4".  That might be the way to go, since the face veneer I have in mind to use is very thin.

Just got these awesome bowclamps, so I'm thinking they should be good enough to apply the veneer on what are relatively small doors, rather than investing in a vacuum press setup.
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS-EC 150/3 • ETS 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/BT module • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3529
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Substrate for veneer panel
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2016, 09:56 PM »
Just got these awesome bowclamps, so I'm thinking they should be good enough to apply the veneer on what are relatively small doors, rather than investing in a vacuum press setup.

Those bow-clamps are probably not going to be that great. You will get bubbles and waves. I would get some hide glue and hammer veneer the veneer to the MDF. Remember you will need to balance the panel with a veneer on both sides.
Tim
Tim

Offline Dovetail65

  • Posts: 4617
    • Rose Farm Floor Medallions and Inlays
Re: Substrate for veneer panel
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2016, 11:07 PM »
A bow clamp won't apply the even pressure like a vacuum press can. Not sure how anyone gets along doing any kind of veneer or laminate work without one. For years I used manual veneer presses and clamps criss crossed every which way with cauls and Ill never go back. I am not sure how I ever did what I did looking back at it.

Get a vacuum press or make one(http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/welcome.htm) and you will wonder how you ever lived without it. It opens up an entirely new part of woodworking. Vacuum is so cheap to get into now I suggest very woodworker put it in their arsenal.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2016, 11:12 PM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5733
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Substrate for veneer panel
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2016, 11:16 PM »
Take a look at the first 11 photos in the linked album. I had to use my split my torsion box table to get an even pressure on the veneer.

I have the culls, you'll need to create pressure plates for them to work against.

https://picasaweb.google.com/tbadernwi/ClevelandRocks

Vacuum press is in the works.

Tom

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 5733
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Substrate for veneer panel
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2016, 11:20 PM »

Offline Dovetail65

  • Posts: 4617
    • Rose Farm Floor Medallions and Inlays
Re: Substrate for veneer panel
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2016, 11:51 PM »
Yeah I remember all that work before I got into vacuum, nice job on those panels.
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline Jesse Cloud

  • Posts: 1722
  • Festooling at the end of a dirt road in New Mexico
Re: Substrate for veneer panel
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2016, 11:58 PM »
A vacuum press is your best best - know anyone around who would let you borrow theirs, or buy some time in their shop.  Second best, and way less expensive, is Tim's suggestion about hide glue and a veneer hammer.   Thats the way it was done for most of history...

With thicker wood, your clamp pressure broadcasts out from the clamp location.  Doesn't happen with thin veneer.  You need pressure everywhere.  Vac press will do that with liquid glue.  Hide glue gets tacky quickly and will bond with pressure and stay that way - the veneer 'hammer' is actually like a metal squeegee that lets you put a lot of pressure on the veneer as you drag it across the panel - all manual, not pricey.  And, with hide glue, if you make a mistake, a hot iron will restore the tackiness to the glue and you can press it again.  This can usually be repeated 4 or 5 times before the glue loses its elasticity.  Google hide glue veneering.

Offline Tayler_mann

  • Posts: 415
Re: Substrate for veneer panel
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2016, 08:52 AM »
veneer press

In my opinion not a bad price and it doubles as a vacuum clamp system for an extra $100. By a cheaper bag at first and you can get out of it for fairly inexpensive. That's my two cents on the subject. I've done the bow clamps and......like everyone else said not cool. I found myself to be 95% successful. If you get to much glue it bubbles if you get a piece of dust in between it leaves a big dent or if you accidently dent your pressure plate it shows through and it takes a long time.

Offline Matthewajones

  • Posts: 206
Re: Substrate for veneer panel
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2016, 09:06 PM »
I have had mixed results with 1/4 mdf and raw veneer. I veneered some older door panels with ash burl on the fronts and 2 ply birch on the backs. They were approximately 13" x 60". Used bow clamps and 2 pieces of 3/4 mdf on both sides as cauls. All went well until cleaning tape residue off the burl. I got a few spots where burl would bubble and had to slice, reglue and clamp, not a disaster but a hassle. The 2 ply went on perfect each and every time. The last 2 panels I used 1/4 baltic birch ply as substrate and with everything being identical had no problem with small bubbles in the burl. Use a conditioner with raw veneer and give it plenty of time to soften.  Lots of good info
at veneersupplies.com.  A veneer press would be great, just can't justify the cost unless I get more clients needing veneering done. Just my 2 cents.