Author Topic: Traditional Mortise & Tenon Joints: A Treatise  (Read 19976 times)

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Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Traditional Mortise & Tenon Joints: A Treatise
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2015, 02:34 AM »
Hi Rob

I have just arrived here from another thread - many thanks for this.

Excellent.

Peter

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Offline Lbob131

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Re: Traditional Mortise & Tenon Joints: A Treatise
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2015, 07:43 AM »
In Fig 11  in the pdf, what process  is involved   to machine the profiles  and leave a tenon that  length  all in one pass?

I'm thinking Trend  Ovolo  shoulder  Scribe & Profile set   fitted to the spindle moulder.
But  not possible as a single pass  in a spindle moulder?

Apart from the tenon  with  felders  big 250mm  diameter  slotters.

I  did the joinery  on an exterior  door a while  back using the domizilla.


« Last Edit: March 22, 2015, 01:09 PM by Lbob131 »

Offline Rob-GB

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Re: Traditional Mortise & Tenon Joints: A Treatise
« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2015, 02:13 PM »
In Fig 11  in the pdf, what process  is involved   to machine the profiles  and leave a tenon that  length  all in one pass?

I'm thinking Trend  Ovolo  shoulder  Scribe & Profile set   fitted to the spindle moulder.
But  not possible as a single pass  in a spindle moulder?

Apart from the tenon  with  felders  big 250mm  diameter  slotters.

I  did the joinery  on an exterior  door a while  back using the domizilla.

Big old tenoners like those made by Wadkin  that have upper and lower heads and cut off saw with appropriate cutter heads would do the job but asking a spindle moulder or router table to do the job in one go is outside their scope. I showed a way to do it in a previous thread using the CMS here
Using dominoes for doors or windows is fine but take on board some of the concepts covered in the PDF, you will see them used in the above link also.

Peter, thank you for resurrecting this thread, I am pleased so many people found it useful.

Rob.
Problem? No such thing! Only a solution waiting to be found:- RJ

"A $2 guppy swims......" Deke

Offline Lbob131

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Re: Traditional Mortise & Tenon Joints: A Treatise
« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2015, 02:44 PM »
Ok thanks.


Offline Nick C

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Re: Traditional Mortise & Tenon Joints: A Treatise
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2015, 01:30 AM »
Very nice article, but I must suggest a clarification of the fox tenon. A "through tenon", as the term implies, is taken right through the mating workpiece. It can be wedged or not. If it is wedged, then the ends of the wedges are visible. A "stop tenon" does not go all the way through; neither does the mortise. A "fox tenon" is a wedged stop tenon. The tenon is cut to the required depth, and slotted to accept wedges. The mortise is dug to the required depth, and is undercut slightly so as to accommodate the spreading  action of the wedges. On assembly, glue is applied, the wedges are inserted part way into the tenon, which is then inserted under clamping pressure. When the tenon is almost home, the wedges contact the bottom of the mortise, and additional clamping pressure causes the tenon to be spread apart by the wedges as it reaches its full depth. If cut properly, there is a worrisome resistance to the clamp, but finally there is a satisfying "snap" as the wedges seat and the tenon expands. Obviously, some care must be taken when cutting the joint and the wedges, but the result is extremely strong, and highly recommended when a through tenon is not appropriate.

Offline Rob-GB

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Re: Traditional Mortise & Tenon Joints: A Treatise
« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2015, 02:44 PM »
Very nice article, but I must suggest a clarification of the fox tenon. A "through tenon", as the term implies, is taken right through the mating workpiece. It can be wedged or not. If it is wedged, then the ends of the wedges are visible. A "stop tenon" does not go all the way through; neither does the mortise. A "fox tenon" is a wedged stop tenon. The tenon is cut to the required depth, and slotted to accept wedges. The mortise is dug to the required depth, and is undercut slightly so as to accommodate the spreading  action of the wedges. On assembly, glue is applied, the wedges are inserted part way into the tenon, which is then inserted under clamping pressure. When the tenon is almost home, the wedges contact the bottom of the mortise, and additional clamping pressure causes the tenon to be spread apart by the wedges as it reaches its full depth. If cut properly, there is a worrisome resistance to the clamp, but finally there is a satisfying "snap" as the wedges seat and the tenon expands. Obviously, some care must be taken when cutting the joint and the wedges, but the result is extremely strong, and highly recommended when a through tenon is not appropriate.

Firstly, thank you for taking the time to read it and also to comment, I appreciate that. Second, I apologize for my belated response as on the 1st of April we moved house, such fools that we are, that created a long period without internet access and I am trying to play catch up on many fronts. [embarassed]
May I quote from the PDF "This method is often referred to as Fox Wedging, that is a method of wedging stopped mortise and tenon joints."
In the UK this terminology is often used to describe the method of wedging not the actual act of producing a "Fox Wedged Stopped Mortice And Tenon" I think this, rather like the earlier debate on "Muntins and Mullions" is down to differences in language and geography and how our common language but disparate experiences sometimes fails us when trying to get an idea or information across. Unfortunate and oft frustrating but I think I shall let my writing stand, as, it is an honest piece based on my training, experiences and practice.
Regards
Rob.
Problem? No such thing! Only a solution waiting to be found:- RJ

"A $2 guppy swims......" Deke

Offline jacko9

  • Posts: 2378
Re: Traditional Mortise & Tenon Joints: A Treatise
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2015, 08:51 PM »
Good reference Rob, thanks for posting.

Offline Locks14

  • Posts: 291
Re: Traditional Mortise & Tenon Joints: A Treatise
« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2015, 09:02 PM »
Very nice article, but I must suggest a clarification of the fox tenon. A "through tenon", as the term implies, is taken right through the mating workpiece. It can be wedged or not. If it is wedged, then the ends of the wedges are visible. A "stop tenon" does not go all the way through; neither does the mortise. A "fox tenon" is a wedged stop tenon. The tenon is cut to the required depth, and slotted to accept wedges. The mortise is dug to the required depth, and is undercut slightly so as to accommodate the spreading  action of the wedges. On assembly, glue is applied, the wedges are inserted part way into the tenon, which is then inserted under clamping pressure. When the tenon is almost home, the wedges contact the bottom of the mortise, and additional clamping pressure causes the tenon to be spread apart by the wedges as it reaches its full depth. If cut properly, there is a worrisome resistance to the clamp, but finally there is a satisfying "snap" as the wedges seat and the tenon expands. Obviously, some care must be taken when cutting the joint and the wedges, but the result is extremely strong, and highly recommended when a through tenon is not appropriate.

Firstly, thank you for taking the time to read it and also to comment, I appreciate that. Second, I apologize for my belated response as on the 1st of April we moved house, such fools that we are, that created a long period without internet access and I am trying to play catch up on many fronts. [embarassed]
May I quote from the PDF "This method is often referred to as Fox Wedging, that is a method of wedging stopped mortise and tenon joints."
In the UK this terminology is often used to describe the method of wedging not the actual act of producing a "Fox Wedged Stopped Mortice And Tenon" I think this, rather like the earlier debate on "Muntins and Mullions" is down to differences in language and geography and how our common language but disparate experiences sometimes fails us when trying to get an idea or information across. Unfortunate and oft frustrating but I think I shall let my writing stand, as, it is an honest piece based on my training, experiences and practice.
Regards
Rob.

I would concur with Rob-GB's notion of a fox wedged tenon.

What Nick C describes i.e. a stop tenon with wedges I believe is what some might refer to as a "suicide" tenon; as once inserted and clamped to engage the wedges, the expansion of the tenon through the wedges, locks the joint even without adhesive and is very difficult to disassemble if properly implemented.