Author Topic: 220V in your shop?  (Read 16900 times)

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Offline Dan Clark

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220V in your shop?
« on: April 01, 2007, 04:01 PM »
Hi.  The electrical in our house is being redone a bit.   This morning I thought, "Hmmm...  Why not add 220V to the shop/garage while we're at it?"  So...

Do you have 220V in your shop?   
Where do you have the outlets?  Walls?  Ceiling?
How big is the circuit?  20 amp?  30 amp?  40amp?   bigger?
How did you run the wires?  Through the studs?   Surface mount conduit?  Other?
Anything to watch out for?  Gotchas?  Tips and tricks?

And finally, if you did it over again, what would you do?   The same?  Different?

Thanks for any feedback,

Dan.

Offline Lou Miller

  • Posts: 482
  • North Wales, PA
    • Some of my work
Re: 220V in your shop?
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2007, 04:30 PM »
I have a 100 amp sub-panel in my shop. All of my stationary tools (TS, dust collector, planer, jointer and BS) have 220v. 30 amp to the TS, 20 amp for the planer, jointer and dust collector, and 15 amps for the bandsaw. I also have an electric heater than runs on a 30 amp 220v circuit as well.

I ran everything myself and its all surface mounted cable. That gives me the flexibility to change it as needed.


Offline Daviddubya

  • Posts: 704
  • Arizona, USA
Re: 220V in your shop?
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2007, 04:32 PM »
I added one 220 circuit to my garage shop when I decided to buy a cabinet saw.  I was lucky in that the electrical box for the house is on the outside wall of the garage.  I had an electrician do the work so it would be up to code.  He punched a hole in the wall into the box and ran surface mounted conduit to the outlet locations.  I also added two 20 amp, 110 circuits at the same time, as all of the power to the garage shop was 15 amp.  My 220 outlet is located on a wall, directly behind the cabinet saw.  The 220 circuit has a double 20 amp breaker, which is plenty for what I need.  The number and size of the 220 circuits you need depends on what you intend to run on them.
David W. Falkenstein
in Cave Creek, AZ, USA

Offline Overtime

  • Posts: 265
  • Eastern Iowa USA
Re: 220V in your shop?
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2007, 09:00 PM »
 We have a 100 amp sub panel in the basement (1400 sf ) shop. And along the cement block walls we have surface mount conduit running 50" above the floor.  220 outlets at stationary ( all on mobile bases) machine locations , DC , and one ceiling mounted 220 outlet box (twist lock) at corner right of cabinet saw where DC comes down. A dedicated 20 amp for the 22-44 sander and a bunch of 110s.
  The basement had a couple of 110s 50" above the floor in conduit before our upgrade. So we had the new conduit placed at the same level. This turned out to be a good choice as the height is just right - easy to locate and up off the floor. The locations of the 220 outlets were well thought out (on paper) and it has worked very well with no changes needed or wanted.     
Patrick

Offline Ted Miller

  • Posts: 234
Re: 220V in your shop?
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2007, 11:23 PM »
Dan, Try to get the largest gear you can get. If you want to stay in that home and have eonugh power for down the road, 300 amp service with 100 amp for the shop. My condo as most resi has 125 amp panel. I had a double pull 30 amp breaker that was for the dryer. I tapped into the panel form the backside then ran 3/4" conduit to my shop down in my garage. #10 wire and I ran 4 each 30 amp 220v outlets for my TS, RAS, Jointer and one extra. I also added 2 each 20 amp breakers to the panel and ran #12 wire to 14 more 110v outlets in my shop. I have a total of 70 amps not including lighting. I used exitsting single light switch in my shop and now I have 7 each 8' and 4 each 4' double flourescents on one switch. If I ever find the space for my clear vue cyclone then I will go up to a 100 amp sub panel since the cyclone will be 220v and will be running along with the TS, RAS or jointer. Right now being a small one man shop 70 amps is perfect. Good luck and I find electricity is like tools, can never have enough...
Miller's Wood Works

Offline Dan Clark

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Re: 220V in your shop?
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2007, 04:01 PM »
Thanks for the great feedback.   As usual, it's caused me to rethink my plans a bit.  (Actually MORE than bit.)   Here's a summary of what I heard - although adding a 220 circuit may be a good idea:

- It's VERY important to define my electrical needs pretty specifically and then draw up a plan.

- It may be more important to add two to three 20Amp 110V circuits too because most of my tools are 110V. 

- Running surface-mounted conduit is a very good idea for maximum flexibility. 

- Having a 220V circuit available for an electric heater would be a great idea.

- Since I'll never be more than a one man shop, having 70-80 amps available to the shop (not inluding lighting) should be about right.

One last question - We have a 220V 30 or 40 amp circuit that is still running to the electric dryer plug.  Since we converted to gas several years ago, it's no longer needed.  Other than the difficulty of removing the circuit, can anyone think of a reason to keep the circuit?

Thanks and regards,

Dan.

p.s., over ther weekend I pulled out the old wire that went to our electric heat-pump.   It was connected to a 60 amp circuit breaker.   The old wire was 2G (yes "two") aluminum wire.   It took about 90 minutes to get it all out of there, but I feel much better now.  I had to buy a big cable cutter to get the stuff out of there (you don't cut that stuff with wire cutters).

Offline mxlars

  • Posts: 25
Re: 220V in your shop?
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2007, 08:20 PM »
As an electrician, and not just a Festool addict.. please keep in mind 80Amps 110volts equals 8800 Watts, and 17600 Watts when your run 220..  ;)
..and take regard to simultaneous use, 125Amps seems outrageous to me for a 1-2man shop - even if you're running all 110volt equipment and a 4Kw heater on full blow alll the time, you'd still have 9750watts available for powertools, chargers and fluorescents  ;D
(For all 220v the math is 27500Watts total on a 125Amp main.. this is TWICE the normal main breaker size for a std. HOUSE here in Norway - all 240volts..)
Be sure to use 'motor'/reactive/high startcurrent fuses when you do a new install(should be same price), otherwise a 20Amp TS may trip a 30Amp fuse when spinning up..

*PS*
For a nice install and some protection a PVC trunk is nice instead of 'loose', unprotected and dust collecting surface mounted conduits.
Like this type fi. http://special.sut.leon.se/viewpages2.asp?Product=1&ArticleID=563&tree=R21

Also nice for airoutlets btw. - just use a std. reinforced airhose and T's for panelmounting  :)
Integrated DC may be stretching it, but a 2" hose could be strapped to the bottom, below the trunk..
« Last Edit: April 02, 2007, 08:34 PM by mxlars »

Offline brandon.nickel

  • Posts: 241
  • Currently Peoria, IL - Eventually back to CO
Re: 220V in your shop?
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2007, 10:28 PM »
Dan,

One thing I've done in both of my garage/workshops is to distribute a pair of 120V circuits in 2-gang boxes around the room.  I just call them the A and B circuits.  That way, anywhere you are, you've got 40A, 120V to plug into.  If you need to tools to run simultaneously, just make sure one's in the left and one's in the right side of the box (whichever box in the room they're at).  It's worked very well for me.  I can't imagine needing more than 40A of 120V simultaneously.  Also, each 120V circuit you run must be GFCI (if it's in the garage).  As for 240V, you are allowed to string it around the room just like 120V, but it's better to plan out the likely 240V tool locations and put dedicated lines to them.  In my shop, the air compressor may kick on at any time (I know, I should find those last leaks), the dust collector is probably running, and then you've got the tool-of-the-moment running as well (joiner, TS, sander).  So, for me, 3 x 240V-20/30A circuits is a must.  Then you can add in climate control (non-GFCI 120V dedicated for gas-heater and 240V-20A for a/c), and lighting (non-GFCI, switched 20A circuit).  You definitely want to run the lighting off a different breaker than the outlets as it sucks to have that breaker pop leaving you in the dark with a coasting power tool.

My 60A subpanel has:
4 x GFCI 120V-20A breakers
2 x 120V-20A breakers
4 x 240V-20A breakers

My $0.02.

-Brandon
TS55, MFT1080, Domino, OF1400, LR32, RO150E, DTS400, Trion, CT33

Offline Dan Clark

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Re: 220V in your shop?
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2007, 10:54 PM »
Wow!  More great feedback!   

mxlars, I've never even seen PVC trunking.  I'll have to take a look at that.

Brandon, there are two circuits that power the garage/shop now.  I'm leaving these in place and will be adding at least two additional circuits.   I very much like your idea of having double gang boxes around the room - two sockets in each box for circuit A and two for circuit B.  That would give me lots of flexibility and plenty of juice.   

Given that it will be much more difficult to add circuits later, I'll go with this - to the two current 120V circuits, I'll add:

- Four 120V GFCI circuits.  Two of the circuits will be run through conduits around the room.   The other two circuits will be stubbed out to a surface mount box for future expansion.

- Two 240V circuits for expansion.   Stub out the circuits in surface mount boxes.

My issue is that I don't have a defined 240V need now, but if I don't plan for expansion, it will be much more difficult in the future.

Regarding your 2 gang boxes, do you run 6 individual wires through conduit?  Romex through walls? 

Thanks,

Dan.

Offline brandon.nickel

  • Posts: 241
  • Currently Peoria, IL - Eventually back to CO
Re: 220V in your shop?
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2007, 08:13 AM »
I ran a 1.5" conduit from the panel through the wall into the attic.  Inside the attic I put junction boxes so that I could "T" the circuits and go left and right.  I just screwed those to a handy rafter and labeled the covers appropriately.  The rest is Romex through the walls/attic.  My garage/workshop is drywalled (at some point I'll tape/mud/paint) it.  I did the drywall, so I was able to put things where I wanted them before insulating/covering it up.

It's a little difficult to pack 4 12/2 Romex into a box when you're using pigtails.  Keep in mind that the ground wires have to all be connected in each box.  For me that meant tying 4 wires together twice.  Ain/Aout/pigtail/jumper, Bin/Bout/pigtail/jumper.  You could put Ain/Aout/Bin/Bout/pigtail/pigtail in one wire nut, but for me it was easier to bundle them into 2 wire nuts and connect the wire nuts together with a jumper.
TS55, MFT1080, Domino, OF1400, LR32, RO150E, DTS400, Trion, CT33

Offline ccmviking

  • Posts: 411
    • Blue River Cabinetry Kitchen and Bath
Re: 220V in your shop?
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2007, 09:04 AM »

In my Garage/Shop I installed (2) 220 Volt outlets (One on each of the walls 90 degree's from the roll up doors, I run a 60 gallon compressor and Miller 175 Mig Welder with them).  Most of the other outlets are 15 amp service and I added a couple of 20 amp services.  I haven't had a problem with tripping any of my 15's since they are dedicated garage circuits.  The best spot to put the outlets (mine are not this way) is in a covered floor box for tools such as a table saw.  If you ceiling or wall mount the cords become tripping hazards or you'll always be knocking them with your lumber.  When I use my dust collector and saw at some customers homes I have issues with a breaker tripping now and then.  It's because they have so much stuff running off a single circuit in some older homes.  I usually just turn the vac speed down about 1/2 way and can get by.  When you run your 220 amp service install 6 gauge wire which is good for 50 amps.  Don't install a 50 amp breaker though unless you need 50 amps.  If you are going to hookup an air compressor or welder that requires 30 amps install a 30 amp breaker.  The breaker can help protect the tool from a melt down not just the wire in your walls.  For the modest price difference in 10 ga. and 6 ga. wire I'd want the added future flexibility.

Chris... 

Offline Dan Clark

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    • talkFestool
Re: 220V in your shop?
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2007, 10:13 AM »
Brandon, Chris,

Thanks.   I like the idea of running extra heavy wire but using lower leve circuit breaker.    I need to study the electrical layout more, but it looks the boxes will need to be extra deep to handle all of the wiring.   

Regarding the ground wire...  Since I'm doing a lot of wiring, I got a special 4-way crimper to crimp the ground wires.  This will reduce some of the volume.   

Thanks,

Dan.

Offline mxlars

  • Posts: 25
Re: 220V in your shop?
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2007, 12:46 PM »
Wow!  More great feedback!   

mxlars, I've never even seen PVC trunking.  I'll have to take a look at that.
....
---> My issue is that I don't have a defined 240V need now, but if I don't plan for expansion, it will be much more difficult in the future.
...........

Thanks,

Dan.

That's the beauty of cable/utilitytrunking Dan, when you need more circuits running through it - you just pop off the lids, slip the new cable/line/hose inside, place your outlet(s), trim the pvc lid and snap it back on.
It also give a really clean look, and a slippery surface to remove dust from. 
Some custom outlets for the trunking system may be pricey, then i suggest just using the trunk for the cables and poke a hole with your C12 where you want to place the standard surfacemounted outlets of your choice.
Some systems have plastic dividers for the inside of the trunk to provide some air between heavy loaded cables, or to separate low voltage cables from the mains.

You may have seen this type of light utilitytrunking in hospitals, as they give a cleaner(less messy) environment and they always need some changes done down the road - like special voltage/control outlets, vacuum/pressure, emergency systems, networking different machines and so on.

Depending on the layout of the shop, you may want to run it as they do in some hospitals btw. - from/along the ceiling and down to each toolstation/workplace instead of using it as a rail around the whole room where the precious wallspace is in use  ;)

Offline Ted Miller

  • Posts: 234
Re: 220V in your shop?
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2007, 04:31 PM »
Dan, Since I have a gas dryer my 220v was not needed anymore so I left the double pull 30 amp breaker there, disconnected the two hots, wire nut, labeled then I pulled two new lines #10s to that breaker and dropped that 30 amp 220v into my shop. I will not to long from now go up to a 50 amp double pull in that 30 amp space and run #8 wire so I can run my 220v DC and my TS or whatever tool at 220v at the same time...
Miller's Wood Works

Offline Dave Ronyak

  • Posts: 2234
  • Flyin' from NE Ohio
Re: 220V in your shop?
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2007, 07:10 PM »
Dan,

When I added a single bay garage/shop to my house, I had to move the electric entry and service box as well.  So I ended up with a new 200 A main disconnect breaker/switch and 200 A main service panel right in my shop!  From it extend 2 subfeeds each of 100 A capacity to existing service panels in the old and newer sections of the house.  I made a deal with the professional electrical contractor so I could add additional circuits and boxes, and he could check my work before the inspector did.  As others have suggested, I recommend using at least 12/3 with ground to every box so you have the option of 120V or 240V at any box.  You'll need a special 240V GFI circuit breaker to protect this run.  (The licensed electrical contractor was not familiar with this item; I found it for him on the internet listings of Siemens.)  I also had him install a special breaker that will shunt to ground any voltage spikes coming into my house electrical service.  This device installs in the place of a 240V (double pole) breaker or two 120V (single pole) circuit breakers.  I also ran a few dedicated 240V runs to the locations to be used for a central cyclone DC unit, my TS and my compressor.  Some of these are 12/3 w/grd and some are 10/3 w/grd.  I also ran one very short run with 8/3 w/grd (or 6/3 w/grd) into a larger sized wall box and capped it.  That extra HD line could be used with an arc welder, or in an emergency to back feed my service panel with a portable generator.  [For those who are thoroughly knowledgeable about home electric codes, I know this last possible use is not as normally approved.  So far, this outlet box and circuit remains capped is not wired into the panel buss.]  I also set up the lighting so I can turn on any of the three subgroups, depending on what I am planning to do in that garage/shop.  And don't forget about heating that space.

Have fun with your project!

Dave R.
Friends, family and Festools make for a good retirement.  PCs...I'm not so sure.

Offline Dan Clark

  • Posts: 545
    • talkFestool
Re: 220V in your shop?
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2007, 07:26 PM »
Dave,

Thanks.  I'm still wrestling with this and I have a month or two to make a decision (electrical in the garage shop is one of the last stages).   That said...

Now, I'm thinking of converting a current 40amp 240V circuit to a 40amp 240 GFI circuit.   I think that will handle most of my 240V needs for the forseeable future.

For 120, I'll add two 20Amp circuits in one conduit to  feed several 4 gang boxes two sockets for each circuit in each box.   

Still thinking though.

Regards,

Dan.

Offline brandon.nickel

  • Posts: 241
  • Currently Peoria, IL - Eventually back to CO
Re: 220V in your shop?
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2007, 08:03 AM »
I would never discourage someone from adding a safety feature, but it isn't strictly necessary (according to code) to use a GFI on a 240V circuit.  I've been thinking about it and I can't come up with a situation where you might accidentally short a circuit like this to ground (since 240V is only used with large, relatively stationary power tools).  A 120V, 20A GFCI breaker is $40.  I wonder how much that 240V version is...
TS55, MFT1080, Domino, OF1400, LR32, RO150E, DTS400, Trion, CT33

Offline Dan Clark

  • Posts: 545
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Re: 220V in your shop?
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2007, 09:00 AM »
Brandon,

You'd be correct if my shop was a shop/shop.   Unfortunately, it's a garage/shop.   And, according to 2005 NEC (210.8A2.5), all garage recepticles need to be on GFCI.  From my reading, they don't make any exceptions for 240.    :(

I'd prefer to be wrong because of the cost of the GFCI.   If you can "show me the error of my ways", please go for it!

Thanks,

Dan.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2007, 09:31 AM by Dan Clark »

Offline Peter Teubel

  • Posts: 148
Re: 220V in your shop?
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2007, 09:32 AM »
You might want to wire up at least ONE outlet without GFI. VFDs (variable frequency drives) don't play well with GFI circuits. Both my Oneway lathes are electronic variable speed and won't run on a GFI circuit.

Offline Dan Clark

  • Posts: 545
    • talkFestool
Re: 220V in your shop?
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2007, 09:35 AM »
Peter,

Thanks.  That's good to know.   I'm assuming that's an issue in general and not specific to 120 or 240.  Yes?

Regards,

Dan.

Offline greg mann

  • Posts: 1836
Re: 220V in your shop?
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2007, 01:26 PM »
Do the variable speeds in most of Festool's line constitute VFDs or are they controlled differently?
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline brandon.nickel

  • Posts: 241
  • Currently Peoria, IL - Eventually back to CO
Re: 220V in your shop?
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2007, 08:56 PM »
I just reviewed the relevant section in my NEC2005 Handbook and I agree with your posting.  There is no indication that a 240V branch circuit would be exempt.  You could easily make the argument, however, that your 240V equipment is "not easily moved from one place to another and that it is cord-and-plug connected in accordance with 400.7(A)(6), (A)(7), or (A)(8)" [NEC2005 210.8(A)(2.2)].  You would therefore fall under the exemption.  I know for a fact that my electrical inspector in Colorado Springs agreed with my interpretation and allowed my non-GFCI 240V circuits.  I suppose it depends on your inspector.  Best case, you pass with a $7 breaker.  Worst case you have to drop the $xxx for the 240V GFCI and drop it in the panel.  Nothing else would have to change.  Just keep your receipts.
TS55, MFT1080, Domino, OF1400, LR32, RO150E, DTS400, Trion, CT33

Offline Dan Clark

  • Posts: 545
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Re: 220V in your shop?
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2007, 10:57 PM »
Brandon,

I like the way you think.   You convinced me!  (I'm so easy!) ;D  As you say, it's minimal risk at worst.

Thanks,

Dan.

Offline Peter Teubel

  • Posts: 148
Re: 220V in your shop?
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2007, 11:33 PM »
Dan,

Yes, that's correct. One of my lathes is 240 and the other 120. Neither will work on a GFI circuit.



Greg,

VFDs are for induction motors. All Festools are universal motors and the speed control is a completely different system.

Offline Dave Ronyak

  • Posts: 2234
  • Flyin' from NE Ohio
Re: 220V in your shop?
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2007, 01:24 AM »
I am not an electrician, but I have equpped the workshop/garage in two houses with a 230-240V GFI breaker, and then ran 12/3 w/grd to several wall boxes, then wired some of them so that the upper and lower receptacles were on separate legs of the 230V.  The first was passed by the Summit County Ohio building inspector; the second by the City of Akron inspector.   I am not certain this arrangement meets code, but it has worked for me without any problems, and I have tripped the GFI when cleaning out a sump pump clogged with debris (not a locked armature).  The advantage of this arrangement is two fold: (1) any outlet can be fitted with a duplex receptacle in which each leg can supply 20 A at 120V to a tool or up to 20A at 240V, and (2) when you plug one tool into the upper 120V receptacle and another into the lower receptacle and run them at the same time (as I often used to do running a router and a Craftsman vacuum at the same time), the current losses through the wiring are cut in half compared to normal circuits (assuming each of the two tools is drawing the same Amperage.  For the first garage/shop the double-pole GFI breaker was a special order from Square D, but that was 30 years ago.  For the second garage/shop, all of the service entry and distribution equipment was from Siemens.

The Akron electrical inspector would normally only allow a single 230V outlet on a circuit, without GFI, e.g. for a compressor or dust collector or table saw.  He and the electrician questioned my idea, and each tested it and found everything worked.  I don't know if there are any potential adverse induction issues as can occur when unbalanced circuit legs are arranged inside metal conduct that is grounded.

Dave R.
Friends, family and Festools make for a good retirement.  PCs...I'm not so sure.

Offline LaserGecko

  • Posts: 161
  • Tools Smarter Than Operator
Re: 220V in your shop?
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2007, 04:19 AM »
Instead of buying a 240V GFCI breaker, couldn't you just hardwire the large equipment with a disconnect box?

No outlet = No GFCI????
Jason Creager
Las Vegas, NV