Author Topic: Shop Heat  (Read 7741 times)

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Offline waltwood

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Shop Heat
« on: April 08, 2014, 10:47 AM »
I currently have a vented kerosene heater in my shop with a small woodstove back-up. It costs me $1000 a season in kerosene now that it is $4.50 a gallon. Can someone suggest another heat system that would cost less. Shop is insulated, 1500 sq. ft. with 10 foot ceilings. I am not asking anyone to size the system I just am stating what I have. It just occurred to me I could have electric baseboard am have a much lower bill than what I currrently have and it is cheap to install.  I want a heat pump or mini-split but there are concerns about wood dust in the returns.
Thanks,
Walt

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: Shop Heat
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2014, 11:25 AM »
Check out electric radiant panels:

http://www.sshcinc.com/

Clean, very comfortable and easy to install. I had a finished room 14' by 14' in an unheated building w/ concrete floor, a 2' by 8' panel on an 8' ceiling ceiling would absolutely roast you. In an insulated shop my guess is that panel would cover 250+ SF.

RMW 

As of 10/17 I am out of the Dog business and pursuing other distractions. Thanks for a fun ride!

Offline Sparktrician

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Re: Shop Heat
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2014, 03:49 PM »
Given that you'll be wanting A/C in the summer, I'd suggest a split system, but get a local tin-knocker to craft a return adapter box that can house a 3M Filtrete 16" x 25" x 4" filter and seal the joint between the filter box and the split's return side. 

- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Offline waltwood

  • Posts: 114
Re: Shop Heat
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2014, 04:25 PM »
Check out electric radiant panels:

http://www.sshcinc.com/

Clean, very comfortable and easy to install. I had a finished room 14' by 14' in an unheated building w/ concrete floor, a 2' by 8' panel on an 8' ceiling ceiling would absolutely roast you. In an insulated shop my guess is that panel would cover 250+ SF.

RMW 



I have never seen them, very interesting.

Offline Tim Raleigh

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Re: Shop Heat
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2014, 04:32 PM »
.  I want a heat pump or mini-split but there are concerns about wood dust in the returns.
Thanks,
Walt

Walt:
I would think a mini- split would be a good choice. With the unit placed high enough and good dust control and a filter you should be ok. You could use this for cooling as well.
What if anything are you using for A/C now?
Are you on a natural gas pipeline?
Natural gas is pretty cheap resource for heating.
Tim

Offline waltwood

  • Posts: 114
Re: Shop Heat
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2014, 04:46 PM »
.  I want a heat pump or mini-split but there are concerns about wood dust in the returns.
Thanks,
Walt

Walt:
I would think a mini- split would be a good choice. With the unit placed high enough and good dust control and a filter you should be ok. You could use this for cooling as well.
What if anything are you using for A/C now?
Are you on a natural gas pipeline?
Natural gas is pretty cheap resource for heating.
Tim

We were posting at about the same time.
We don't have natural gas but I use propane in the house for 4 appliances. I have a 500 gallon buried tank in the yard. It also seems expensive to use but I know it would be cheaper than kerosene.

Offline waltwood

  • Posts: 114
Re: Shop Heat
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2014, 04:59 PM »
I don't know what happened to a post I just submitted but I have a AC window unit installed in the wall and It makes it more comfortable by reducing the humidity but it is undersized. I can tolerate the heat better than the cold.

I currently have a mini split in an addition in my house and it is great. I think dust would be a problem with one of them though because you could not add a pre- filter. I have added several filters to other  types of shop heat but with the intake opening and closing I don't see how you could do it to a mini split.

Offline Alli

  • Posts: 84
Re: Shop Heat
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2014, 05:04 PM »
If you have a lot of saw dust, would a saw dust heating system be feasible? I've never seen one but know they are about, I just like the idea of using up a waste product to heat up a building that could cost you to get rid of.
Domino, OF1400, CT26, TS55, RO150, MFT3, RTS400, PSB 420 EQB Set.

Offline roadking

  • Posts: 13
Re: Shop Heat
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2014, 05:18 PM »
Try solar. I have a 24 x32 garage with 7 ft backwall going to 15 ft front wall. I built 4 solar panels approx 27 x 76 x6" each from patio door glass and 4 layers of expanded metal painted black and 1 inch rigid insulation. They have fans connected to relays that kick in when the solar panel reaches 135F and cuts out when the temp drops to about 120F. Today it is +4C ( about 40F) outside and the garage is about 17/18c (about 66/67F) on the inside with no supplementary(electric) heat turned on. Glycol based system works even better as liquid will absorb 2700 times more heat than the air does. Panels were one of my first uses of the domino 500.

Offline waltwood

  • Posts: 114
Re: Shop Heat
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2014, 06:26 PM »
If you have a lot of saw dust, would a saw dust heating system be feasible? I've never seen one but know they are about, I just like the idea of using up a waste product to heat up a building that could cost you to get rid of.

I have been burning wood for 40 years and have just gotten tired of the hassle. I was going to remove the woodstove I currently have in there because of that and fire concerns. I used to produce a lot of shavings and no longer do but thank you for the suggestion.

Offline waltwood

  • Posts: 114
Re: Shop Heat
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2014, 07:03 PM »
Try solar. I have a 24 x32 garage with 7 ft backwall going to 15 ft front wall. I built 4 solar panels approx 27 x 76 x6" each from patio door glass and 4 layers of expanded metal painted black and 1 inch rigid insulation. They have fans connected to relays that kick in when the solar panel reaches 135F and cuts out when the temp drops to about 120F. Today it is +4C ( about 40F) outside and the garage is about 17/18c (about 66/67F) on the inside with no supplementary(electric) heat turned on. Glycol based system works even better as liquid will absorb 2700 times more heat than the air does. Panels were one of my first uses of the domino 500.

I had forgotten about this option. I have plans somewhere for 4' x 8' passive solar panels. The long wall of the shop faces south almost directly and there are no obstructions (trees, etc.). Sounds like the liquid transfer is a better option. Thanks for the suggestion!

Offline land_kel

  • Posts: 157
Re: Shop Heat
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2014, 07:07 PM »
I use radiant floor heating cables.  Keeps the shop a nice working temp, and all items are warm, not to touch, but to use.

Programable stat, 4" rigid foam on structural base then 4" conc. with cables 2" in.

Cost of power here is .13 kWh

I'm happy with the room comfort, and the power cost is what it is.
Lots of stuff

Offline roadking

  • Posts: 13
Re: Shop Heat
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2014, 07:21 PM »
Radiant floor heating works great with solar. Wish I had the lines laid in my floor when it was done

Offline wow

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Re: Shop Heat
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2014, 12:38 AM »
I think everybody got a rude awakening about heating costs this winter. And I also don't think there is 'yet' one winning answer.

I use LP with a high efficiency furnace. A real benefit to the HE units is that the combustion chamber is completely sealed, so no shop dust is ever able to be ignited because it only circulates through the fan, not the combustion chamber. That was a big selling point for me.

The other thing I like about LP is that you are far more self-sufficient in the case of a disaster - natural or otherwise - than almost any other system. I have a diesel generator connected to the house and the shop, and can run for days or weeks without electricity and several MONTHS without needing a propane fill. Living in the tundra (almost) this makes me sleep better on those cold winter nights.
Trying to be one of the most helpful members on the FOG.

Offline batcave

  • Posts: 210
Re: Shop Heat
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2014, 06:35 AM »
Not that it helps you, but I moved my shop to my basement for this reason. I already ran a dehumidifier down there. There is no heating or cooling system and it stays between 65-72 all year. I was using a mr heater big max Lp on the ceiling in the garage. Like stated before, there are many variables that change cost from year to year. One year to the next will have a different leader. The only true way to save is to go without, which is no fun at all.

Kevin
To the batcave!

Offline waltwood

  • Posts: 114
Re: Shop Heat
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2014, 09:45 AM »
I think everybody got a rude awakening about heating costs this winter. And I also don't think there is 'yet' one winning answer.

I use LP with a high efficiency furnace. A real benefit to the HE units is that the combustion chamber is completely sealed, so no shop dust is ever able to be ignited because it only circulates through the fan, not the combustion chamber. That was a big selling point for me.

The other thing I like about LP is that you are far more self-sufficient in the case of a disaster - natural or otherwise - than almost any other system. I have a diesel generator connected to the house and the shop, and can run for days or weeks without electricity and several MONTHS without needing a propane fill. Living in the tundra (almost) this makes me sleep better on those cold winter nights.
Can you tell me more about this type of gas furnace. How does it circulate the air? Is this the type used  in automotive repair shops?

Offline wow

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Re: Shop Heat
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2014, 11:35 AM »
I think everybody got a rude awakening about heating costs this winter. And I also don't think there is 'yet' one winning answer.

I use LP with a high efficiency furnace. A real benefit to the HE units is that the combustion chamber is completely sealed, so no shop dust is ever able to be ignited because it only circulates through the fan, not the combustion chamber. That was a big selling point for me.

The other thing I like about LP is that you are far more self-sufficient in the case of a disaster - natural or otherwise - than almost any other system. I have a diesel generator connected to the house and the shop, and can run for days or weeks without electricity and several MONTHS without needing a propane fill. Living in the tundra (almost) this makes me sleep better on those cold winter nights.
Can you tell me more about this type of gas furnace. How does it circulate the air? Is this the type used  in automotive repair shops?

Sure. Here's the best picture I could find of a similar furnace (Mine's a Rheem brand, but any good manufacturer has a similar version) where you can see what's going on:

104048-0

The key thing to note is that it has what's called an 'induced draft' blower. The easy way to tell that is to identify the two PVC pipes. One brings outside air into the combustion chamber, and the other removes it. You know it's high efficiency because the exhaust it cool enough that it can exit via a PVC pipe - there is no chimney required. Another advantage is that your furnace room does not have to have cold 'make-up air' coming into it like was required with older gas furnaces.

In the picture it's easy to see that the furnace has two parts. The top 'half' is gasketed and sealed with screws - that's your combustion chamber.

The bottom part has only two thumb screws to hold the cover on - that's the 'big' blower that pushes the air throughout the house - or in my case, the shop. The screws are there so you can easily change the filter and clean it. On mine I also had them install an external filter box that holds cheap disposable filters and allows me to change them without even opening the filter door. I have only once changed the internal filter in over 10 years.

I don't want to start sounding like a salesman or product brochure, so I'll stop here - unless you have more questions?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 11:38 AM by wow »
Trying to be one of the most helpful members on the FOG.

Offline waltwood

  • Posts: 114
Re: Shop Heat
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2015, 03:45 PM »
In November I had a Heating Contractor install a 2 1/2 ton Fujitsu mini- split in my shop. It has exceeded my expectations because the heat is very even throughout the shop and it is 50' long. I removed the Toyostove Laser and woodstove and it is much more comfortable now. It has a dehumidification mode which I will run in the summer.The shop has its own electric meter so it is easy to determine the charge or total cost of running the unit. It is half the cost of kerosene.



« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 03:55 PM by waltwood »

Offline shaneymack

  • Posts: 128
Re: Shop Heat
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2015, 04:14 PM »
I just installed a ceiling mounted stelpro dragon. Works great.

http://m.stelpro.com/items/att_details.asp?id=V¶µ¤†/tqmw

Offline shaneymack

  • Posts: 128
Re: Shop Heat
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2015, 04:17 PM »
Here is a better link to the pdf...

 en.stelpro.com/contenu/ca/pdf/.../DR.pdf

Offline Wuffles

  • Posts: 1313
Re: Shop Heat
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2015, 04:01 AM »
If you have a lot of saw dust, would a saw dust heating system be feasible? I've never seen one but know they are about, I just like the idea of using up a waste product to heat up a building that could cost you to get rid of.

I've got one of those, I don't really generate enough saw dust to keep it going 24/7but one load can keep the burner going for a good long day. Can top it up with off cuts too, but it seems to just amble along fairly happily with shavings and sawdust.

http://tecnikstoves.co.uk/

Replaced my wood burner (which needed topping up all the time during the day) with it and haven't looked back.
Tool list updated to reflect knowledge :: hammer, screwdriver, one pozi bit, and another bigger hammer.

Offline sae

  • Posts: 841
Re: Shop Heat
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2015, 04:15 AM »
In November I had a Heating Contractor install a 2 1/2 ton Fujitsu mini- split in my shop. It has exceeded my expectations because the heat is very even throughout the shop and it is 50' long. I removed the Toyostove Laser and woodstove and it is much more comfortable now. It has a dehumidification mode which I will run in the summer.The shop has its own electric meter so it is easy to determine the charge or total cost of running the unit. It is half the cost of kerosene.


This is really interesting!

So this is just a heat unit, not A/C as well? Most these mini-splits I see are dual function.

Edit: I found their ultra-low temp one that stops condensate from freezing, this was the exact solution I was looking for.

http://www.fujitsugeneral.com/wallmountedRLS2H.htm
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 04:21 AM by sae »

Offline waltwood

  • Posts: 114
Re: Shop Heat
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2015, 08:00 AM »
No, this is AC also but I do not require much of that. I only ran my window unit mounted in the wall about 5 times a summer. But after removing that I put another clamp rack in its place.
Walt 

Online RKA

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Re: Shop Heat
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2015, 09:18 AM »
You'll love the Fujitsu!  You won't regret spending a little more for it.  I've had a 2 ton unit in my garage for just over 3 years now and it's been flawless!  The efficiency is incredible.  It will suck down 4kw/h to reach target temps, but only uses 1-2kw/h to maintain when outdoor temps are 25F.  And this is in a garage with two large leaky doors.  I even tested it down to 3F and it was still pumping out heat (rated down to 5F) at a similar output compared to what I see at 15F.
-Raj

Offline Greg M

  • Posts: 283
Re: Shop Heat
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2015, 09:40 AM »
Mini-split is the best option for heat and cooling.  It's the most efficient.  Look into Daikin.  It's the global leader for this type of unit.  They have very high seer ratings and are much more affordable then the more popular options here in the US.  I run a 9000BTU unit that's 18 seer.  In my first shop I didn't have air cleaners running but I had a very good filter setup for the unit.  The unit got a lot of dust in it through even the smallest of air leaks.  In this shop I don't have any filters installed on it but have 2 air cleaners running.  They are positioned so that the suction is near the mini split and exhaust away from it.  The mini split has stayed fairly clean like this.  Of coarse it also helps that I'm now using Festool sanders so there's a lot less fine dust to control.

Just a few ideas about the above install.   

I would have installed the indoor unit much higher on the wall.  That would allow for better airflow and mixture of the air in the space.  It's not a big deal but would make a difference.

I can understand putting the outside unit on a stand to keep the coil cleaner.  It's actually a very good idea.  I suggest to customers to mount it on the side of the house.  They make mounting brackets for that.  These units only require a few inches clearance on the inlet side for airflow.  I certainly hope that is treated lumber that was used to make the stand for the outdoor unit.  That plywood is going to rot long before the unit needs to be changed.

Why put the roof over it?  A roof isn't needed unless there is a danger of falling limbs hitting the unit.  Your particular setup doesn't inhabit airflow.  However, if you're using the mini split more for heat then why block the sun from hitting it.  The unit could absorb the solar heating and transfer that heat into your building.  I assume that the unit wasn't put closer to where the line set comes out because the roof would have blocked the window?  Always use as short a line set as possible.

Other then those points the install looks extremely good and very professional.

FYI, if anyone has a roof or deck over an outside unit that blows the air straight up then you should either remove what's above the unit or relocate your unit.  You're not helping the life expectancy by protecting your unit from the elements because these are designed to last a long time when exposed to the elements.  What you are doing is inhibiting the airflow and reducing the efficiency of the unit.  The roof or deck forces the unit to recirculate the air causing the air being used to get hotter during the summer months and colder during the winters months (for heat pumps).  This will reduce the life expectancy of your unit because it's raising the pressures in the system making the unit work harder. 

Offline waltwood

  • Posts: 114
Re: Shop Heat
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2015, 04:06 PM »
Mini-split is the best option for heat and cooling.  It's the most efficient.  Look into Daikin.  It's the global leader for this type of unit.  They have very high seer ratings and are much more affordable then the more popular options here in the US.  I run a 9000BTU unit that's 18 seer.  In my first shop I didn't have air cleaners running but I had a very good filter setup for the unit.  The unit got a lot of dust in it through even the smallest of air leaks.  In this shop I don't have any filters installed on it but have 2 air cleaners running.  They are positioned so that the suction is near the mini split and exhaust away from it.  The mini split has stayed fairly clean like this.  Of coarse it also helps that I'm now using Festool sanders so there's a lot less fine dust to control.

Just a few ideas about the above install.   

I would have installed the indoor unit much higher on the wall.  That would allow for better airflow and mixture of the air in the space.  It's not a big deal but would make a difference.

I can understand putting the outside unit on a stand to keep the coil cleaner.  It's actually a very good idea.  I suggest to customers to mount it on the side of the house.  They make mounting brackets for that.  These units only require a few inches clearance on the inlet side for airflow.  I certainly hope that is treated lumber that was used to make the stand for the outdoor unit.  That plywood is going to rot long before the unit needs to be changed.

Why put the roof over it?  A roof isn't needed unless there is a danger of falling limbs hitting the unit.  Your particular setup doesn't inhabit airflow.  However, if you're using the mini split more for heat then why block the sun from hitting it.  The unit could absorb the solar heating and transfer that heat into your building.  I assume that the unit wasn't put closer to where the line set comes out because the roof would have blocked the window?  Always use as short a line set as possible.

Other then those points the install looks extremely good and very professional.

FYI, if anyone has a roof or deck over an outside unit that blows the air straight up then you should either remove what's above the unit or relocate your unit.  You're not helping the life expectancy by protecting your unit from the elements because these are designed to last a long time when exposed to the elements.  What you are doing is inhibiting the airflow and reducing the efficiency of the unit.  The roof or deck forces the unit to recirculate the air causing the air being used to get hotter during the summer months and colder during the winters months (for heat pumps).  This will reduce the life expectancy of your unit because it's raising the pressures in the system making the unit work harder.

The head is a little low but still within spec. Not sure what it would do better being up higher because hot air rises. It distributes the warm air around the shop very good.
Outside unit. I built the roof over it because the guy who installed it said they last longer if covered and the roof run-off can really shorten their life expectancy. This unit is away from the overhang enough that the roof run-off does not land on it. But, I have never seen another one with a cover over it so it is probably not necessary unless you have a large stand of Loblolly pines over top of it like mine does. The needles were  getting stuck in the coils, clogging the air flow and were difficult to remove. Also I thought the cover was a neat design.

Offline waltwood

  • Posts: 114
Re: Shop Heat
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2015, 04:12 PM »
Stand is treated lumber and ply is 3/4" group 1 AB marine left over from 2 boats I built. They are holding up great being wet all the time.

Offline Greg M

  • Posts: 283
Re: Shop Heat
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2015, 04:23 PM »

The head is a little low but still within spec. Not sure what it would do better being up higher because hot air rises. It distributes the warm air around the shop very good.
Outside unit. I built the roof over it because the guy who installed it said they last longer if covered and the roof run-off can really shorten their life expectancy. This unit is away from the overhang enough that the roof run-off does not land on it. But, I have never seen another one with a cover over it so it is probably not necessary unless you have a large stand of Loblolly pines over top of it like mine does. The needles were  getting stuck in the coils, clogging the air flow and were difficult to remove. Also I thought the cover was a neat design.

Not that the indoor unit won't work well were you have it.  Mounting it higher is nitpicking.  The intake is on the top and it blows down at about a 45 angle in heating if it's like the ones I've installed.  Getting closer to where the heat ends up and forcing it towards the floor mixes the air better.

The installer was wrong in what he told you.  Those outside units can take all kinds of weather and still last a long time although salt air will shorten their life.  However, your reasoning for having the roof over it is a logical reason to have it and the way you built it helps.  I could tell by the picture that it was far enough from the building to not have runoff hitting the unit but even if it did it wouldn't present a problem. 

Like I said, it looks like a very good installation.  My 2 cents was more for other people that will look at this thread in the future.  That mini split will save you a lot of money over what you were using.  I'll bet it pays for itself in a few short years.

Offline waltwood

  • Posts: 114
Re: Shop Heat
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2015, 04:54 PM »
Thanks for the input and compliment. I am figuring it would pay for itself in 4 years compared to the Toyostove but I am warmer!

Online RKA

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Re: Shop Heat
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2015, 08:51 PM »
About the line set length and distance from the indoor unit, Fujitsu recommends a minimum 5m length on my unit and most likely his as well.  They provide an adjustment (refrigerant) only if the length exceeds 20m.  Just eyeballing his picture it appears it's just above the minimum recommended. 
-Raj