Author Topic: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)  (Read 64457 times)

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Offline Richard/RMW

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I am getting geared up for my winter project, planned to be the renovation of my little workshop. Since I expect to be buried in this particular backyard, this seems to finally be the time to “do it right”. Doing it right is what I am trying to define, plan and execute; the purpose for starting this thread is to brainstorm and get suggestions from fellow FOG’ers. Let’s start by describing the current situation, then outline some general concepts.

I live on Brigantine Beach NJ, just north of Atlantic City. Lots on the island are small, it having been developed in the 1920’s as a summer resort. In our case the lot is 50’ wide, and 125’ deep. Total impervious coverage is limited to 40% for the house footprint and another 20% for driveways, etc. After we built the house and other hard surfaces I ended up with about 200 SF of excess allowable impervious coverage for the shop and anything else I may want to build in the future. The existing shed on the property was already 120SF and we decided not to expand the footprint.

The structure was decent construction; stick-built (2 by 4’s and plywood, 8’ to the underside of the collar tie) so all we did was drag it to one side and install 5’0” double doors to ease access. Later we added a deck of sorts, 1 by 6 PT on a 2 by 8 structural frame, resting on concrete pavers. This deck is about 17’ wide by 20’ and when the weather permits I can setup outside for stuff like cutting plywood, etc. This is the outside:

199879-0

Inside I have ~ 11’6” by 9’6” of space to work with.  I decided to run 24” base cabinets along the rear wall, this give me tool and hardware storage + the surface for bench machines. There are 12” overhead cabinets above this area. Here are some of the drawers. I bought gobs of these red bins and they really helped bring order to the chaos in the drawers:

199905-1

199907-2

199909-3

199911-4

I also have big stuff, including this 14” + deep drawer with a 2 tons arbor press, tapping gadget, bench vise and extra 14” blades:

199913-5

Lastly typical tools/supplies:

199915-6

199917-7

Overall the cabinets hold a lot of stuff with very little wasted space. This leaves me about 7’6” by 11’6” for everything else. My MFT/3 and CT26 sit on either side of the door opening and this leaves a “T” shaped open floor area where I can move from the door to the cabinets and to either side.  My challenge is to maximize the use of the available space and gain better access to tools. Here are 360 degree photos of the current setup:

199881-8

199883-9

199885-10

199887-11

199889-12

199891-13

199893-14

199895-15

199897-16
 
I do woodworking as well as fiddling with metal and plastics, machining small parts by hand and CNC. So far the woodworking has been mostly related to finishing off construction, i.e. shelves and cabinets, but in the future I want to do furniture and even boats. The shed also provides me the only place I have to sit out of the weather and enjoy a cigar, often while smoking/cooking on the grills. I don’t want to cram it full of stuff; my strong preference is to have open space and benches/tools that can be configured for the project du jure.

I have been experimenting with French cleats and wall racks with stainless and wooden dowels, the idea being to come up with a modular system for hanging clamps, guide rails, etc. I also have a gob of the 80/20 “extension arms” that are posted elsewhere on the FOG hanging on the wall. I suspect my final setup is going to rely heavily on these arms in lieu of fixed/solid topped workbenches. Wall racks:

199899-17

199901-18

199903-19

This year I finally got power to it, 60A of 220V in a small subpanel. When I wire up the rest of it I expect to have (2) 20A/110V circuits and (1) 30A/220V circuit. This will let me run electric heat while still using my largest tools.

To complete this intro, here are some of my guiding principles (for lack of a better word):

  • If it is not used in the shop, it is not stored in the shop. This includes excess material, more on this in a later post.
  • Everything that touches the floor, where practical, will be on casters.
  • Everything stored in shop cabinets will be behind doors/in drawers to reduce clutter. The exception will be things hanging on the wall racks.
  • Nothing will be stored on the floor.
  • My to-be-built work surfaces will be modular, to allow different configurations as needs change. This is going to rely heavily on 80/20.

Once completed I will post some Sketchup plans of the shop as it stands today.

As this thread develops I am looking for input and ideas. I expect to post progress reports for each phase, and hope to brainstorm different problems as they arise.

That’s it for now.

RMW
 
 
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 07:58 PM by Richard/RMW »
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Offline RobBob

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My shop is about the same size and I also use an outside area for cutting up large sheets and long pieces.  I will be watching with interest.

P.S.  Where did you get all of those red bins?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2014, 08:47 PM by rljatl »

Offline duburban

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So much potential ! I'd like to see a time lapse of a boat build that sticks way out the front door.

Can you comment on your array of parallel guides?
helper: i used a festool "circular saw" to do something simple and it made it really hard

me: exactly, it makes simple cuts complicated and complicated cuts simple

Offline Wooden Skye

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Richard,

My shop is close to the same size so using the space efficiently is my challenge as well.  This is an idea I have been kicking around, just not sure if it is possible or is the type brainstorming ideas you are interested in.  I am about to build a new miter saw workstation.  It will be 8' long and 28" wide.  I am planning for drawers and systainer storage.  The idea I am trying to do is if I drilled the top of the bench like an MFT, if I left a 2-4" space by 4' long space under the bench top, I would like to build a pullout bench top 24" wide for larger assembly table.  The part I am struggling with is how do I attach to where it will rise and be level with the main benchtop.  This would allow me a larger assembly table, but not take up much space.  My initial thought was to use the kitchen hardware for bringing a kitchen mixer up to a counter top, just not sure it will mount or hold the weight of the second top and potential project. 

I will be following this closely.
Bryan

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Offline madmaguire

  • Posts: 64
French cleats are really one of the best systems for organizing any shop. Versatility at its best!  From what I can see you are organized already and with your plans for pegs and French cleats I'm sure it will come together for you. Good luck and will be watching as well.
One thing you can always count on is change!
Cheers
John
Cheers

Offline elfick

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Where did you get the red bins?

Offline Wenyce

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Wow that is a nice floor sweeper (broom).

j/k great looking setup you have there, definitely great eye for organization. Hopefully i'll get my place looking like that some day.

Offline panelchat

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The project and lot/house details are really interesting and a nice organizational challenge. I especially like that nothing is stored on the floor. do you accept visitors from the tri state area who might be passing by??
also- what is that Nevadan Pennsylvania plate?

Offline wow

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Even though I have more room than you do, I have been trying to de-clutter my shop. And my life, for that matter.

 [embarassed]

I made some similar decisions:

• Nothing on the floor unless it has to be. IF it has to be on the floor, ask 'why' until you're sure there is no other answer. It's amazing how much stuff I've found other homes for when I challenge myself like this. (Sadly, I still have too much junk!)

• Everything that can be on casters or rollers is - or will be. This aids in seasonal 'deep' cleaning, but also allows me to set up a manufacturing 'cell' if I'm doing a big project or a lot of something.

• Anything that can't go on casters goes on a pallet. This typically means lumber, sheet goods, and large supplies.

• Anything that has to go on a pallet goes on a plastic/fiberglass pallet. Wooden pallets are either too fragile or too heavy, and look like crap. If it goes on a pallet, it goes on a good one.

• Anything that doesn't fit well on a pallet goes in a 'crate'. These are typically 'vertically oriented' items. I picked up some 3-sided plywood crates designed to hold stacks of paper for publishing. I got them dirt cheap - I think I paid $5 each. I don't have any pictures right now, but I'll try to take some when I can get out to the shop again. They are ~ 32" wide x 28" deep x 34" tall. They hold 3,000 pounds each, are stackable, and can be easily moved with a 'mini' pallet jack - even when stacked. (The forks on my mini pallet jack are only 32" long instead of the usual 48" - which makes it VERY maneuverable. Cute, too!)

• Sheet goods get stored flat. I don't have one yet, but I plan to get a large cantilever rack to put up against one wall of the shop near the big door. Stock coming into the shop gets unloaded onto this rack for later breakdown. This is one of the few items that can't/won't be on rollers, but I plan to leave enough room to easily clean under it.

• Long lumber and light timbers get stored around the perimeter of the shop near the ceiling, between 8' and ~10-6' off the floor. This is otherwise somewhat 'useless' space, but is prefect for this application. I use heavy-duty standards and wall brackets that came from old retail stores. Got those cheap, too!

The toughest thing for me is knowing what to keep and what to toss. I have been served well in business by being able to see the value in something that others may not. But I find that same 'skill' causing me to hang onto stuff I should probably just toss.

I am excited to follow your progress, and I expect that you will have a few good ideas that I will end up stealing. Thanks in advance for the inspiration!
Trying to be one of the most helpful members on the FOG.

Offline Richard/RMW

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My shop is about the same size and I also use an outside area for cutting up large sheets and long pieces.  I will be watching with interest.

P.S.  Where did you get all of those red bins?

They came from Schaller. Afraid to say I probably spent $5-600 on them in 3 buys but all my small stuff has never been more accessible. Having a nook for every little thing makes it easier for me to grab/use/return, the last being the best part. Keeps clutter down on the small work surfaces.

http://www.schallercorporation.com/

RMW

RMW
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Offline Richard/RMW

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So much potential ! I'd like to see a time lapse of a boat build that sticks way out the front door.

Can you comment on your array of parallel guides?

Yea, the whole wooden boat thing is going to be interesting. This is one of those years-long obsessions that had be subscribed to Woodenboat magazine, taking some classes and visiting the nearby seaport museums. It is something I really want to do but I struggle with long term projects, keeping focused on them that is. I doubt I will start one until I am at least semi-retired, if that day ever arrives.

Besides, the pizza oven comes first... [big grin]

RE the guides, I do have a few. Makes for easy setups for various materials widths, or leaving 2-3 guide rails setup for different width cuts when doing a bunch of drawer boxes, etc.

RMW
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Offline Richard/RMW

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Richard,

My shop is close to the same size so using the space efficiently is my challenge as well.  This is an idea I have been kicking around, just not sure if it is possible or is the type brainstorming ideas you are interested in.  I am about to build a new miter saw workstation.  It will be 8' long and 28" wide.  I am planning for drawers and systainer storage.  The idea I am trying to do is if I drilled the top of the bench like an MFT, if I left a 2-4" space by 4' long space under the bench top, I would like to build a pullout bench top 24" wide for larger assembly table.  The part I am struggling with is how do I attach to where it will rise and be level with the main benchtop.  This would allow me a larger assembly table, but not take up much space.  My initial thought was to use the kitchen hardware for bringing a kitchen mixer up to a counter top, just not sure it will mount or hold the weight of the second top and potential project. 

I will be following this closely.

Post some photos or sketches when you have them, I am thinking along the same lines of having a small/mid size stationary surface then extending it somehow. My current concept has a +/-16" deep surface fixed to the wall, with drawers/systainers under it, then a secondary deeper surface that folds down from the wall. The problem with this is if the fold-down surface is, for example, 42" deep and 48" wide then when it is folded against the wall I just lost 14 SF of wall area for hanging stuff on.

The other option I see is having the extension surface separate, figuring how to easily attach edge-to-edge with the fixed surface, and using legs to support the outside edge. I still have to store the extension surface, so it is not a great solution either.

RMW
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Offline Crox G

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Are some of the drawer pulls bottle openers?  Brilliant!  Love it.
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Offline balrog

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http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=174553

This is an ongoing workshop build on another forum. Lots of nice workshop ideas.

Offline Richard/RMW

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Even though I have more room than you do, I have been trying to de-clutter my shop. And my life, for that matter.

 [embarassed]

I made some similar decisions:

• Nothing on the floor unless it has to be. IF it has to be on the floor, ask 'why' until you're sure there is no other answer. It's amazing how much stuff I've found other homes for when I challenge myself like this. (Sadly, I still have too much junk!)

• Everything that can be on casters or rollers is - or will be. This aids in seasonal 'deep' cleaning, but also allows me to set up a manufacturing 'cell' if I'm doing a big project or a lot of something.

• Anything that can't go on casters goes on a pallet. This typically means lumber, sheet goods, and large supplies.

• Anything that has to go on a pallet goes on a plastic/fiberglass pallet. Wooden pallets are either too fragile or too heavy, and look like crap. If it goes on a pallet, it goes on a good one.

• Anything that doesn't fit well on a pallet goes in a 'crate'. These are typically 'vertically oriented' items. I picked up some 3-sided plywood crates designed to hold stacks of paper for publishing. I got them dirt cheap - I think I paid $5 each. I don't have any pictures right now, but I'll try to take some when I can get out to the shop again. They are ~ 32" wide x 28" deep x 34" tall. They hold 3,000 pounds each, are stackable, and can be easily moved with a 'mini' pallet jack - even when stacked. (The forks on my mini pallet jack are only 32" long instead of the usual 48" - which makes it VERY maneuverable. Cute, too!)

• Sheet goods get stored flat. I don't have one yet, but I plan to get a large cantilever rack to put up against one wall of the shop near the big door. Stock coming into the shop gets unloaded onto this rack for later breakdown. This is one of the few items that can't/won't be on rollers, but I plan to leave enough room to easily clean under it.

• Long lumber and light timbers get stored around the perimeter of the shop near the ceiling, between 8' and ~10-6' off the floor. This is otherwise somewhat 'useless' space, but is prefect for this application. I use heavy-duty standards and wall brackets that came from old retail stores. Got those cheap, too!

The toughest thing for me is knowing what to keep and what to toss. I have been served well in business by being able to see the value in something that others may not. But I find that same 'skill' causing me to hang onto stuff I should probably just toss.

I am excited to follow your progress, and I expect that you will have a few good ideas that I will end up stealing. Thanks in advance for the inspiration!

wow - Needing to put stuff on pallets, or moving stuff with a pallet jack, those are "first world issues" from my perspective...  [poke]

Seriously though, I had those issues in my previous shop. We traded the small house with the big shop/yard and lots of trees for the bigger house with no yard/small shop and no grass or leaves to rake and a beach tossed in for good measure. Best choice we ever made, even if I gave up about 800 SF of shop in the deal.

Having no space does make you creative and judicious about buying tools. We don't even have a basement or anywhere else to store overflow, it fits in the shop (other than excess materials - more on this when I have time) or I don't have it.

I've followed some of your posts on materials, etc. You do have an eye for a bargain. Did you ever figure out what to do with the purplish composite panels you acquired?

RMW
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Offline Richard/RMW

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The project and lot/house details are really interesting and a nice organizational challenge. I especially like that nothing is stored on the floor. do you accept visitors from the tri state area who might be passing by??
also- what is that Nevadan Pennsylvania plate?

panelchat - come on by. There seem to be a fair amount of FOG'ers in the Delaware valley, we should have a get together.

The PA plate was my attempt to hang onto my identity... born/raised in NV. Married a Philly girl THEN moved to PA to live with her. We ended up in Jersey, which is seriously the last place I ever thought I would live.

The funny thing was, over 13 years of driving with that plate, 99.5% of the people to ask about it asked me "who is Nevada-Dan?". I told them he was Pennsylvania-Anne's cousin. Nobody seemed to get it but they stopped asking.

RMW   
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Offline Richard/RMW

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Making a little progress on the planning part of this. After standing around staring at the shop walls for a bit, and reviewing some FOG posts, I am decided to go with a french cleat system. I hope to use it not only for small stuff like tools/fasteners, but also to support one end of my work surfaces.

Because of that last requirement I am a bit leary of the typical F/C that is beveled at 45 degrees, looking for something that won't lift off as easily. The current concept is to use 1/2" by 2" material and rabbet 1/4" by 1/2", like this:

200340-0

I am thinking of using aluminum for one row on the wall @ around 35" to secure the worksurfaces @ 37", then using wood or HDPE for the rows above this that will hold less weight/not be subject to the same stresses. I suspect that wall-flatness may come into play and be an issue with this setup more so than it does with the beveled cleats. Has anyone used something similar?

Thanks,

RMW
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Offline RobBob

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Actually, based on my experience, I think the design you show above will lift off easier than the 45 degree French cleats.  The 45 degree cleats "stick" together because the pointy ends wedge themselves into the "v" on the other piece, but I guess your design could also fit together tightly, depending on how close your tolerances are.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 05:04 PM by RLJ-Atl »

Offline rvieceli

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I'm of the same opinion, I think the 45 degree French cleat system will work better than what you have illustrated. Just so you know I do trust it, I have around a 175-200 pound slab of black walnut suspended from a French cleat that is my headboard on my bed. That thing is over my head when I'm asleep. [scared] But it's not going anywhere.

A typical 3/4 inch thick cleat cut at a 45 degree angle gives you a full inch of mating surface on the angle. the weight of the piece being suspended jams the cleat together tightly. To remove the object, you need to lift straight up to disengage the cleat. You'll put a spacer that matches the thickness of your cleat at the bottom back to keep everything aligned.

If you are concerned that you will get all medieval on something at the other end of the bench and cause the cleated end to raise, just take a length of  1x and screw it to a couple studs and lock the piece down.

Offline Richard/RMW

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Hmmnnn...  [scratch chin]

Okay - I will reconsider the beveled F/C. It would be a lot simpler anyway, just cutting 3/4" ply.

Thanks for the input.

RMW
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Offline Tinker

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Richard,
I am sure your shop will have many sensible innovations.  I will be watching closely.

I am with those who wood go with the 45º French Cleats.  With 3/4" half lap there wood be a chance for the cleat tongue to rip off.  A very minor split will have a tendency to travel.  with very straight grained wood, it could travel the length of the cleat.  If using plywood and ripping cleats, you end up losing a lot of strength at the lips of the cleats.

I am planning to build (redo) my own shop and like the FC system.  I have almost no wall space along one wall and am planning to construct 2'x3'(+/) cabinets/shelves, some with doors that also contain tools or whatever.  There could be a lot more weight than I might wish to hang on a T&G type of cleat.  I am sure, from experience, that once I have rearranged all on FC's I will think of a better (?) arrangement and rearrange again. and again and................

I think the angled cleats will stand up to my own bad habits much better.

Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline wow

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I've followed some of your posts on materials, etc. You do have an eye for a bargain. Did you ever figure out what to do with the purplish composite panels you acquired?

RMW

I just figured out the first project/use for some of them. I am going to use the 1" material to make steps up to the mezzanine in the shop. They will actually be oversized - by a LOT - since I will use the area between each step for storage. Each step will extend back to a landing area, giving me up to 5' of space for storing long, thin cut-offs and 'stuff'.

I haven't yet decided if I will access the cubbies by somehow opening or removing the risers, or if I will fashion some kind of pull-out drawer or tray. Fortunately I don't have to decide that right now.
Trying to be one of the most helpful members on the FOG.

Offline Richard/RMW

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Finally made a bit of progress on the shop, after weeks of fiddling with other projects I focused on the primary MFT/sys-cart/workbench design and took the plunge. I decided to get this done first since it will consolidate some of my storage and hold stuff that I will otherwise need to move anyway to finish the electrical and other work.

The design follows several of my "guiding principals", including being modular, on casters and my standard height of 37". Yesterday I got the frame done in < 4 hours, which involved cutting the 80/20, drilling access holes for the hardware and doing a dry fit. It is ~56" long, 32" deep and the top will be 37" high.

204389-0

204391-1

204393-2

204395-3

The design is meant to use the minimum amount of hardware, as a single 80/20 corner bracket can cost $5, they add up fast. I am using the standard end fasteners for everything except the top connection of the 1530 extrusions, which will get another corner bracket.

There will be 3 sections each sized for Systainers , using 28" full-extension drawer glides to get 2-deep, should be able to fit 18-20 total.  I plan to make an MFT-style top, so I will need to leave room to reach under it for clamping, etc. This will give me a large shelf over the systainers that should serve to store large squares & straight edges, as well as catching lots of sawdust...

Back to the shop to start cutting panels.  [thumbs up]

RMW
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Offline lawhoo

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Very nice start, Richard.  What are you using to cut the 8020?  I have aluminum blades for the TS 55 and Kapex, as well as a 14" blade for a cutoff saw that I could borrow from a friend.  I would prefer to use the cutoff saw, but it's a single-speed (3,900 RPM) Ridgid, and I wonder whether I should cut the extrusions at a lower speed.

Offline Richard/RMW

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Very nice start, Richard.  What are you using to cut the 8020?  I have aluminum blades for the TS 55 and Kapex, as well as a 14" blade for a cutoff saw that I could borrow from a friend.  I would prefer to use the cutoff saw, but it's a single-speed (3,900 RPM) Ridgid, and I wonder whether I should cut the extrusions at a lower speed.


The saw is a Milwaukee dry-cut designed for metal, only 1,500 rpm, blade is Oshlun 14" 100 tooth non-ferrous metals. I am not sure the rpm rating on the blade but 3,900 sounds a bit too fast to me. @ 1,500 it cuts beautifully.

RMW

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Offline Tinker

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Great so far, Richard.
I am slowly getting my shop organized.  The pictures are still in my head, of course.

I tried out doing a couple of tools chests (one under my CMS) and am trying 3 wheeled concept.  My shop floor is very uneven and often, when i roll a bench or tool into working area, if all four feet are on uneven floor, I need a shingle or two to stop the rocking. With three wheels, I stop the rocking.  the bench may not be level, but at least i can work without the work surface rocking all around.

I have tried a couple of chests, one with the single wheel in front and one with the single wheel in back.  The single wheel in back works best.  With single wheel in front, the chest becomes unstable when pulling out drawers to get at tools or machines.  the heavier the tool, the more unstable.  With the single wheel in back, I do not notice any unstability.  I have not tried doing three wheels on any work bench, but thinking of trying.

Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline lawhoo

  • Posts: 170
Very nice start, Richard.  What are you using to cut the 8020?  I have aluminum blades for the TS 55 and Kapex, as well as a 14" blade for a cutoff saw that I could borrow from a friend.  I would prefer to use the cutoff saw, but it's a single-speed (3,900 RPM) Ridgid, and I wonder whether I should cut the extrusions at a lower speed.


The saw is a Milwaukee dry-cut designed for metal, only 1,500 rpm, blade is Oshlun 14" 100 tooth non-ferrous metals. I am not sure the rpm rating on the blade but 3,900 sounds a bit too fast to me. @ 1,500 it cuts beautifully.

RMW

Thanks.  The speed was my concern, so that's good to know.

Offline rvieceli

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I think that Milwaukee has discontinued the saw that Richard has. So if you see one that is working properly, you might want to pick it up.

Offline Richard/RMW

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I've heard good things about the Evolution saw: http://www.evolutionpowertools.com/

I owned the DeWalt and hated the clamping mechanise, when I saw the Milwaukee @ Grizzly's showroom I grabbed it and sold the DeWalt.

RMW
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Offline Tinker

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I checked out the site for Evolution Saws.  Amazing.
The chop saw vid was interesting that there is almost no heat buildup.  They say "...no heat...". That is hard to believe.  But I scrolled a little more and it showed a guy cutting steel "I" beam with a handheld circular saw.  The guy was using it at nearly shoulder height and using it freehand cutting into the end of the beam cutting off the flanges. That would be quite scary to me without some sort of stabilizing support.  And the blade teeth look to have a very definite positive hook like a wood cutting blade wood have.  A smooth finish cut was the result with perfect fit and finish.  Wow!
Tinker
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Offline Richard/RMW

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I checked out the site for Evolution Saws.  Amazing.
The chop saw vid was interesting that there is almost no heat buildup.  They say "...no heat...". That is hard to believe.  But I scrolled a little more and it showed a guy cutting steel "I" beam with a handheld circular saw.  The guy was using it at nearly shoulder height and using it freehand cutting into the end of the beam cutting off the flanges. That would be quite scary to me without some sort of stabilizing support.  And the blade teeth look to have a very definite positive hook like a wood cutting blade wood have.  A smooth finish cut was the result with perfect fit and finish.  Wow!
Tinker

No heat for sure, it was the same for the Dewalt and Milwaukee. My saw goes thru steel or aluminum like butter, using different blades of course.

When I first started metal working I used abrasive blades and always hated the mess, sparks and smell. When I got the first slow cut saw (sometimes called cold cut saws) it was unreal the difference.

RMW
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Offline Tinker

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The biggest surprise for me is the size and hook of the teeth.
just thinking of that scares me.
Tinker
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Offline mike_aa

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I bought one of the small Evolution (7 1/4") chop saws to have for occasional cuts around the house.  I cut some 3/4 black pipe with it recently and the cutting was smooth and spark free.  Only problem was the cut was somewhat inconsistent and not completely square.  It looked like the blade was drifting as it cut.  Could be user error, but I tried to made sure the saw and work were squared and varied how fast I pushed the blade through.  The blade and arm didn't seem to have wobble either, I just couldn't get a better result.  Though, it was great to make the cut without any sparking even if I did have to clean up the cut a bit.

Mike A.

Offline Tinker

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This discussion is the very first time i have ever heard of the cool cutting of metal saws.  I can see why RMW has one in his shop if he is doing any kind of metal cutting.  I am blessed  [unsure] [unsure] with a small shop and do sometimes need tot cut a piece of metal.  The only tool i will use for that is with a hand powered hacksaw.  With proximity of sawdust from very fine sanding dust to larger particles from TS 55 and routers to shavings from hand planer, one spark could spell disaster.  I do all metal cutting out side or in the barn.  I, so far, do no woodworking in the barn.

Niether my cellar shop, nor my barn work area is spacious enough to work both wood and natal inside of the same areas.  The 7-1/4" saw that Mike mentions seems like perfect for a small shop where not much metal work, but some, is done.  I wonder if a couple of large stabilizing washers on the blade would solve your problem of blade wandering.
Tinker
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Offline mike_aa

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The 7-1/4" saw that Mike mentions seems like perfect for a small shop where not much metal work, but some, is done.  I wonder if a couple of large stabilizing washers on the blade would solve your problem of blade wandering.
Tinker

Tinker, That's a good idea.  There are smaller diameter washers on the saw and I suppose they could be replaced with larger ones.  I remember using some stabilizers to tame the blade wobble on an old 12" table saw I have. 

Since this was the first and only time I used the Evolution saw, I probably should try it out on other cuts to see if it performs any better.  The pipe I cut was common steel gas/water pipe.  Maybe it will work better when cutting angle or tubular shaped steel of a different quality.  The saw works well for my occasional use even if I end up having to clean up the cut a bit. 

Mike A.

Offline Tinker

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Do those blades run cool even if slightly dull?  Not saying i would run a dull blade on purpose. Sometimes the first clue a blade is dull is not by quick visual inspection, but more from difficulties in making a cut.

Also, will sparks fly if hitting something like a grain of sand imbedded in a metal casting?
Tinker
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Offline rst

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In regard to the  remarks concerning speed when cutting aluminum, I am a storefront contractor and use 10" and 14" Makitas.  Aluminum can be cut at full speed of the saw, although for thick extrusions I lub with WD-40.  Cutting steel is another matter which is why the ceramic blades are used at a slower speed.  I also install steel entrances and I use a PC Saw Boss with a 15 amp router controller to reduce speed.  I also use Milwaukees 18V cordless metal cutting saws to install lite kits.  I have a Milwaukee mini bandsaw to cut thick steel onsite.  The most amazing aspect of the steel cutting blades is the finished cut is almost smooth enough to run your finger over and the chips are as file as filings.

Offline jobsworth

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2014, 02:11 PM »
Hi Richard,

I just saw this thread ad Im a little late to the party. I moved from a decent size shop in the states to a small shop in the UK. I used a lot of spur shelving to hold my tools and systainers. If I had to do it all over again I would build me a guido type wall taking up one complete wall. It would give me just about all the storage I would need for tools (systainers) and screws finishes etc.. It should give you the rest of your floor space for your MFTs/CMS etc, I also suggest you use the available wall space.
Loving the Calif sun....

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2014, 08:38 PM »
Hi Richard,

I just saw this thread ad Im a little late to the party. I moved from a decent size shop in the states to a small shop in the UK. I used a lot of spur shelving to hold my tools and systainers. If I had to do it all over again I would build me a guido type wall taking up one complete wall. It would give me just about all the storage I would need for tools (systainers) and screws finishes etc.. It should give you the rest of your floor space for your MFTs/CMS etc, I also suggest you use the available wall space.

Thanks jobsworth, I forgot about the chaos wall. Have to consider that, although my initial concern is losing the space for the bench top tools. Needs some more thought.

RMW
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Offline jobsworth

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #39 on: November 14, 2014, 03:47 AM »
I only have a couple of bench top tools. They are really that heavy. I set them on spur shelving. For the heavier one I added a extra up right. I set my systainers 2 high, meaning, 500 domino with the domino accessory systainer on top of it, so I can grab both at once.
I use  combo delta belt/ 5" disk sander a lot. So I set that on the lower shelf and under it Ill hang my hoses. I made a place for my 1080  and 2 1400 rails and 2 1400 holy rails so I can hang them on the wall right next to my parallel guides. Since Im working from home ad only doing 8 hrs today, I should ba able to get some shop time in. ill take a photo of what Im talking about. It isnt pretty Rick but as Im renting this place for a couple of years it does work. Ill make it pretty when I get back home in my own shop. Which has more room to.
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Offline jobsworth

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #40 on: November 14, 2014, 01:05 PM »

My shop isnt as organized as yours but here is  how I hang my guide 1400 guides, PGs and a photo of the spur shelving. You can really store alot on those. My 3000 and 1900 guide rail is on top


« Last Edit: November 14, 2014, 01:08 PM by jobsworth »
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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2014, 10:51 AM »
Finally some headway to report!

Sidebar - I love the Thanksgiving weekend around here... business pretty much shuts down on Wednesday, we run errands, cook for a day & a half, host family on Thursday, they all go home and then I have 3 days to work on my stuff. Weather and wife cooperated (I was mainly responsible for running errands, smoking the turkey, and making sure there was enough ice), so it was a great long weekend. I got in about 2 solid days of work and nearly as many hours of standing around contemplating the work. Back on topic...

After agonizing over my options I made up my mind and unloaded the stuff crammed into every square inch and got it out of the way, probably 7 of the 10 pounds (see topic title) had to be moved:

207838-0

207842-1

Next I cleared out the overhead junk & opened up the ceiling by adding braces to each set of rafters and removing the single old collar tie (it's amazing how well a couple 8p common nails hold in 30 year old lumber!):

207844-2

207846-3

Finally I roughed in most of the electric and started insulating as I went:

207848-4

207851-5

207853-6

One of the decisions I made was to drop from (5) 24" base cabinets down to (4) and swap them to the short (9'-6") wall, with the remaining space on that wall dedicated to my CT/UDD. The tools/abrasives stored in the cabinet I am losing will end up in the new MFT cart.

Moving the cabinets on the short wall will leave me with an open rectangular floor space ~9'-6" by 9'-6" in which I can move my work benches around in as needed. Where the cabinets were previously located ( on the 11'-6" long wall) reduced the short floor space dimension to only 7'-6" which left me only able to work long material in one direction, this should be much better.

Since I am not ready to install whatever wall board I end up going with I decided to just eliminate it behind the cabinets, which saves a few $$ and lets me deal with the wall sheathing later. The floor drops ~3/4" in 24" out from the wall, so I ran a ledger @ 3-1/4" off the floor, the cabinets will rest on this, be shimmed and screwed to the studs and then I can scribe a 3/4" toe kick to the uneven floor to support the front of the cabinet.

Another of the choices I made was to run all outlets @ 40" above the floor. My standard work surface height will be 37", so the outlets will clear any bench/table I add. I also ran 6" strips of 3/4" plywood blocking @ ~38" height so I have something to attach cabinets/benches to other than the studs.

I decided to run all horizontal electric @ 30" above the floor, A height at which I am unlikely to be screwing anything in the future. as a precaution I am putting nail plates over each wire anyway.

In total I ended up with 5 circuits:

  • 15A for the overhead/outside lights
  • 20A dedicated to the CT, with outlets in 3 of the 4 corners of the shop
  • 20A with outlets @ 40" height, about every 32" around the walls
  • 20A run overhead in the ceiling, for drop cord reels and the 110V heater I currently have (this circuit probably won't get used a great deal after I replace the heater)
  • 30A/220V with one outlet on the wall and then run overhead for future radiant heat panel (if I need to use the outlet I will shut off the heat if necessary


I also ran the overhead 20A line to a J-box outside and wire-nutted it off, that will serve the future outdoor cooking area. Overhead I plan on (4) 4' fluorescent fixtures, and eventually a 24" by 48" radiant heat panel on the 220V circuit.

Lots more to do but it feels good to have made a start. Now I can't really work in there until the wiring/insulation are completed and the cabinets moved, so this should keep me focused for the next couple weeks of free time.

Thoughts and suggestions are appreciated.

RMW
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 03:50 PM by Richard/RMW »
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Offline rvieceli

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2014, 01:20 PM »

Since I am not ready to install whatever wall board I end up going with I decided to just eliminate it behind the cabinets, which saves a few $$ and lets me deal with the wall sheathing later. The floor drops ~3/4" in 24" out from the wall, so I ran a ledger @ 3-3/4" off the floor, the cabinets will rest on this, be shimmed and screwed to the studs and then I can scribe a 3/4" toe kick to the uneven floor to support the front of the cabinet.


Have you considered going ahead and leveling the floor out now that you are redoing? That's only four sheets of ply and some furring strips. Or is it fairly level after the drop?

Not sure how easy it is to get something under your space but you might want to consider running a piece of conduit under the floor and installing a flush floor receptacle in the center of your remaining workspace. Saw that in Marc Spagnuolo's new shop. It's under his MFT and it seems a good way to keep the floor clear of cords and avoiding a drop from the ceiling.

Ron

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2014, 03:57 PM »

Since I am not ready to install whatever wall board I end up going with I decided to just eliminate it behind the cabinets, which saves a few $$ and lets me deal with the wall sheathing later. The floor drops ~3/4" in 24" out from the wall, so I ran a ledger @ 3-3/4" off the floor, the cabinets will rest on this, be shimmed and screwed to the studs and then I can scribe a 3/4" toe kick to the uneven floor to support the front of the cabinet.


Have you considered going ahead and leveling the floor out now that you are redoing? That's only four sheets of ply and some furring strips. Or is it fairly level after the drop?

Not sure how easy it is to get something under your space but you might want to consider running a piece of conduit under the floor and installing a flush floor receptacle in the center of your remaining workspace. Saw that in Marc Spagnuolo's new shop. It's under his MFT and it seems a good way to keep the floor clear of cords and avoiding a drop from the ceiling.

Ron

Had not considered that Ron. The floor is pretty level after that bit near the wall, it has never bothered me nor have I had problems with benches being wobbly, etc.

If the space were any larger I would consider the floor outlet, that's a great idea. In this case however I doubt I will even use a drop cord very often, it was just a case of running the line while the ceiling was open because I could, and because the heater I have now is 110V.

Thanks for the s suggestions.

RMW
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Offline Tinker

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2014, 08:44 PM »
My first question is: why does the floor drop 3/4" in the first 24" from the wall and then flattens out?
From there:  Does that happen with both sides of the floor?
If so: I would suspect the floor "timbers" have dropped down until the centers of the joists rest against something more sturdy than air. Is the plywood holding up the joists? A center beam that has also dropped? Are the joists resting on earth in the center?

You are a very thorough worker, so I think you are confident that you have a solid floor base; but I still ask just in case. 
Tinker
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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #45 on: December 04, 2014, 10:00 PM »
My first question is: why does the floor drop 3/4" in the first 24" from the wall and then flattens out?
From there:  Does that happen with both sides of the floor?
If so: I would suspect the floor "timbers" have dropped down until the centers of the joists rest against something more sturdy than air. Is the plywood holding up the joists? A center beam that has also dropped? Are the joists resting on earth in the center?

You are a very thorough worker, so I think you are confident that you have a solid floor base; but I still ask just in case. 
Tinker

Wayne,

This is a 30 year old stick built shed that was on the property when we bought it. The house was a summer home at the beach, which was not built for winter use. It was not even insulated, to give you an idea of the construction there was no subfloor under the hardwood, it was just nailed to the floor joists and sat 18" over a sand base in the crawl space. Total recipe for rot and mold. We fixed or sistered the original joists when we first raised the house.

At the time we bought the house the shed rested at ground level on some cinder blocks that had been dug in, the floor joists were just Doug fir and rotted out. The first weekend we owned it I ripped out the floor and replaced the joists with PT lumber and new plywood, but I had to fudge and shape the rim joists and hammer them into place in the space between the bottom plates and block. Frankly I never imagined this house would become my primary home or this building would be my shop.

When we moved here full time 5 years later the focus was on expanding and renovating the house, while doing that I dragged the shed 20' to one side of the property and onto a concrete pad we had poured. Later we leveled it at the perimeter but that left the uneven floor.

There is no center beam, the shed/shop is only 10' by 12'. The 10' joists sit in hangers nailed to the rim boards. The rim boards sit on solid CMU blocks resting on the concrete pad. The walls themselves are slightly out of plum & racked, either from the original construction or from when I moved it across the lot. It is not enough to really be a problem, perhaps 1/4" in 8 feet.

I guess the bottom line it things just evolved and there was always something more pressing to worry about. Other then needing the adjust the cabinets to level them the unlevel floor was never really been a problem, and I am A/R enough that if it had been I would have ripped out out and fixed it. I've dealt enough with old buildings now to not get perplexed when thing are a tad out of square.

The floor joists are sturdy enough, there is minimal flex and it causes no problems in use. My focus is really just on finishing the interior.

RMW




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Offline Tinker

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #46 on: December 05, 2014, 03:40 AM »
Richard, I was pretty sure you had things pretty well understood.  I knew the shed had been moved from a much earlier post.  I know, from experience, about the "getting it done as best we can for the time being" type of jobs.  Been there done that. Our own house is in an area where all the houses were built as summer vacation type living.  I think we are one of the few whose house had been insulated >>>  1" rock wool and fiberboard.  Everything we have done inside has included ripping out all of the interior wall and adding insulation.  Also, like your shed, if you drop a marble on the floor, it will not be where you dropped it. My own shop is over a concrete floor that is as uneven as the waves of the ocean.  To level up, I just put down pressure treated 2x4 with layer of pressure treated plywood over top of them and a layer of CD over that.  Not too many of my benches sit steady on four legs without a shingle or two under one of the legs. That is easier than having tried to shim each and every 2x that had been put down for the base.

I am now experimenting with making my movable cabinets and machine bases three legged.  I am finding that to work quite well.  The one thin I have discovered is to put the single leg (all legs are going on casters) at the back if drawers are involved.  If the third leg is in the front, the whole thing can be a little tippy.  With the third leg in the back, it all remains stable.  I also have put my SCMS onto a sliding table with a lazy susan base on top of the sliding platform.  That way, i can leave the cabinet in one spot with the SCMS tucked back against the wall as much out of the way as possible.  When I need to use the saw, if short pieces to be cut, the machine stays against the wall at 90º to the wall.  If I want to cut longer pieces (not so much necessary anymore since I was introduced to MFT and ATF 55), I pull platform out from wall and rotate.  Roller stands are quicker to set up to handle long ends and I do not need to clear space on the floor to move an entire cabinet.  The set up works for me. [smile]
Tinker

PS  I think I have finally solved my problem with installing pics onto FOG.  I will try to post some pics of the SCMS set up later today.  with rain in forecast, I am running late already, and it is only 3:30am. 
T
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Offline Tinker

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #47 on: December 05, 2014, 03:23 PM »
The top is how I tuck the saw back into the wall so i have space to walk around between saw and MFT

This is an intermediate position.  I use this when cutting short pieces such a picture frames or borders around cheese boards

This is all the way out.  I do have to pull the MFT out of the way and use a couple of roller stands when breaking down long boards so they are manageable for dimensioning on the MFT.

This is not the easiest setup, but it works for all I need t do.  If i cannot manage a cut with this, or on the MFT, I do the shortening outside.  The longest piece of lumber I can maneuver in to the shop is about 12 feet.  Anything longer must be done outside.

When the platform is pulled all the way out, I lock in place with a clamp and brace underneath with a 2x4.  Otherwise, the weight of the lumber and saw, plus any down pressure needed to hold the board in place will probably bend the runners.  Those are just the heaviest drawer slides i happened to have lying around in the shop when I set this up.
Tinker
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 03:28 PM by Tinker »
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Offline aosty

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2014, 09:09 PM »
Nice job!

Was the old single rafter/collar tie at the wall top plate?  I'm thinking about doing something similar in my small shop.




Next I cleared out the overhead junk & opened up the ceiling by adding braces to each set of rafters and removing the single old collar tie (it's amazing how well a couple 8p common nails hold in 30 year old lumber!):

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)


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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2014, 09:07 AM »
Nice job!

Was the old single rafter/collar tie at the wall top plate?  I'm thinking about doing something similar in my small shop.


Thanks aosty. Yes, the old collar tie was at the top plate, then new ones are about 60" long OAL, the rafters they tie together only span 10' (2 by 4's @ about 2/12 pitch w/ a 2 by 6 ridge) so they should be rigid enough to prevent any sagging/spreading.

RMW
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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2014, 09:21 AM »
Made more progress on Sunday - moved the cabinets from the back wall to the right side wall, finished the rough wiring and installed plugs in 2 circuits then fired up those breakers. Total of 17 duplex plugs available now - it is impossible to be out of arm's reach from a plug - Whoot!

208187-0

I'm really happy that I decided to relocate the cabinets, the space feels much bigger and is a lot more flexible - I will be able to move the 2 rolling MFT/carts (when completed) around as needed.

Next is finishing the overhead circuits, getting some temporary heat and lights and then competing the insulation, hopefully all next weekend.

After that I can focus on interior sheathing, Although I am still tossed on whether to go cheap (drywall) or splurge and find some T&G pine and put a clear finish on it. I do plan to use French cleats for the wall storage racks and get rid of the overhead cabinets.

RMW

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2014, 09:27 AM »
The top is how I tuck the saw back into the wall so i have space to walk around between saw and MFT
(Attachment Link)
This is an intermediate position.  I use this when cutting short pieces such a picture frames or borders around cheese boards
(Attachment Link)
This is all the way out.  I do have to pull the MFT out of the way and use a couple of roller stands when breaking down long boards so they are manageable for dimensioning on the MFT.
(Attachment Link)
This is not the easiest setup, but it works for all I need t do.  If i cannot manage a cut with this, or on the MFT, I do the shortening outside.  The longest piece of lumber I can maneuver in to the shop is about 12 feet.  Anything longer must be done outside.

When the platform is pulled all the way out, I lock in place with a clamp and brace underneath with a 2x4.  Otherwise, the weight of the lumber and saw, plus any down pressure needed to hold the board in place will probably bend the runners.  Those are just the heaviest drawer slides i happened to have lying around in the shop when I set this up.
Tinker

Wayne, I love that idea. Looks like a combo lazy Susan/drawer slides?

I gave up on having a SCMS in the shop, I did not think I could spare the space to have it stationary and not have to move it every time I wanted to use it, which defeated the purpose for me. Sandy got my 12" miter saw and I never replaced it.

Gonna have to rethink whether I can afford the space penalty to have a SCSM.

Thanks!

RMW
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Offline rvieceli

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #52 on: December 08, 2014, 11:18 AM »
Richard, I don't know how your code folks are, but here they don't count stuff that hangs off the building but doesn't increase the foundation footprint. Things like a bay window or a bump out.

Can't find a pic right now but I have seen folks that have created a bump out behind the SCMS to make room for the rails and stuff, so they can fit on a smaller space bench top.

Offline Tinker

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #53 on: December 08, 2014, 12:48 PM »
Richard, As you can see, i could have saved another 5 or 6" in walk-around space by using a narrower platform under the saw.  It was something i had thought about and just used what i had handy.  I have thought of a way to stiffen the platform with a support that could flip out from the cabinet frame as well. I think I will try that every now and then as I am using the saw, but then i realize how much dust is flying around and i think of a Kap---------- er, I don't even want to mention that.  There are saws that don't take up quite so much room.  I used to have an RAS that actually did not need as much space as the SCMS and I could rig up a dust catcher that took up no extra space.  I even used that in the living room one time with NO extracurricular static.
Tinker
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Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2014, 02:39 PM »
Richard, I don't know how your code folks are, but here they don't count stuff that hangs off the building but doesn't increase the foundation footprint. Things like a bay window or a bump out.

Can't find a pic right now but I have seen folks that have created a bump out behind the SCMS to make room for the rails and stuff, so they can fit on a smaller space bench top.

Good idea, it's something I once considered as a way of creating a cubby for a compressor or to store a DeWalt contractors saw. Where our codes give me a problem is in setbacks, the shop sits 3' from our fence on 2 sides and I cannot encroach into that setback. Also for practical reasons I want to have room to get around the shop for maintenance, cleanup, etc.

I was looking at another thread on the FOG earlier today showing a Bosch SCMS that does not have the tubes off the rear, it got me thinking. I have to head over the Lowes/HD and measure the saw when it is in the tucked-in position. Now that the space is cleaned out to create some openness I am reluctant to fill it up again... although that is probably inevitable.

RMW
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Offline Dan Clark

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #55 on: December 08, 2014, 04:29 PM »
Richard,

At one point in the thread, you mentioned a 220V radiant heater.   When I remodeled my garage, I got a small, 220V Electric Utility Heater (pic below).   If you're interested I'll look up the model and vendor, but here's an example: http://www.zoro.com/i/G4703072/?utm_source=google_shopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google_Shopping_Feed&gclid=CLKcr4iwt8ICFRRcfgodyKoAzA

It's not perfect and the thermostat is a bit touchy, but it heats up the garage very quickly.   Overall the garage is about 23 X 22 with a room that's about 7 X 12.   I put in a separate on/off switch so that I could cut the electricity completely.   It's small, unobtrusive, and doesn't get in the way.  Overall, I'm very happy with it.

Might be something to consider.

Regards,

Dan.


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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #56 on: December 08, 2014, 07:51 PM »
Richard,

At one point in the thread, you mentioned a 220V radiant heater.   When I remodeled my garage, I got a small, 220V Electric Utility Heater (pic below).   If you're interested I'll look up the model and vendor, but here's an example: http://www.zoro.com/i/G4703072/?utm_source=google_shopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google_Shopping_Feed&gclid=CLKcr4iwt8ICFRRcfgodyKoAzA

It's not perfect and the thermostat is a bit touchy, but it heats up the garage very quickly.   Overall the garage is about 23 X 22 with a room that's about 7 X 12.   I put in a separate on/off switch so that I could cut the electricity completely.   It's small, unobtrusive, and doesn't get in the way.  Overall, I'm very happy with it.

Might be something to consider.

Regards,

Dan.



Dan, I actually have one of those exact heaters, just re-discovered it in the crawl space this weekend. I pulled it from my old 24' by 32' shop when we moved. That is probably going to be my "temporary" heater, which in my world tends to become permanent pretty frequently.

I am hoping to one day justify a 2' by 4' radiant panel, I like the heat much more, but they run over $300 and there are other priorities right now. The cost to run them is really low, a 1,280 BTU panel draws 500 watts, @ our rates ($0.11/kWh) it is next to nothing to run all day. Based on my prior experience with a panel twice that size the smaller one should do the trick for my use.

The Dimplex (just checked out of curiosity) draws 5kW & puts out 17K BTU's [eek] - I may end up frying myself.

Thanks for the suggestion, I will let you know if I can stand to be inside the shop when the Dimplex is running. [big grin]
 
RMW

PS - what the heck is a CAR doing in your workshop???
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Offline Tinker

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #57 on: December 09, 2014, 03:18 AM »
quote RMW>>>I was looking at another thread on the FOG earlier today showing a Bosch SCMS that does not have the tubes off the rear, it got me thinking. I have to head over the Lowes/HD and measure the saw when it is in the tucked-in position.<<<

Richard, in the foggy recesses of my skull, I seem to recall a conversation (possibly on The FOG)about the Bosch slider.  There was a problem with the table not being dead on flat. The opinion was that the weight of the sliding mechanism and saw itself was causing the table to dip in the middle.  I am sure by now the problem has been corrected.  I do like the concept tho as it looks to be a very strong and stable mechanism with no more space when folded up than miter only, or a chop saw.
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #58 on: December 09, 2014, 10:47 AM »
Richard, I don't know how your code folks are, but here they don't count stuff that hangs off the building but doesn't increase the foundation footprint. Things like a bay window or a bump out.

Can't find a pic right now but I have seen folks that have created a bump out behind the SCMS to make room for the rails and stuff, so they can fit on a smaller space bench top.

Good idea, it's something I once considered as a way of creating a cubby for a compressor or to store a DeWalt contractors saw. Where our codes give me a problem is in setbacks, the shop sits 3' from our fence on 2 sides and I cannot encroach into that setback. Also for practical reasons I want to have room to get around the shop for maintenance, cleanup, etc.

I was looking at another thread on the FOG earlier today showing a Bosch SCMS that does not have the tubes off the rear, it got me thinking. I have to head over the Lowes/HD and measure the saw when it is in the tucked-in position. Now that the space is cleaned out to create some openness I am reluctant to fill it up again... although that is probably inevitable.

RMW

Richard, how about a flush door or a sliding door.  The flush door could open out when needed and it could be weather stripped. it could even be set up so it could open from inside and still open out.  Un noticeable to anybody until it is opened.

a double door with the bottom flipping down and the top flipping up could work so it never opens out.  Flashing for that could be very unobtrusive (as in not visable).

Of course that Bosch would solve all of the problems i have listed here  ::)

Whoops! I just now thought of another tale from the past.
As my brother and i had been dropped off at our Uncle's farm for two weeks while our parents sorted out their differences, the stay ended up lasting for 6 years. 

For our first or second Christmas on the farm, we had looked under the tree (which we had helped cut and drag down from the back pasture lot) hoping to find something there from our dad.  Our mom was there and we had already located piles of goodies from her.  When all packages had been opened and wrappers spread all over the floor (I know, nobody else makes that kind of mess), our mom took us out to the barn and showed us a big pile of lumber.  I had noticed the pile as i had been doing chores around and in the barn for over a week, but gave it no thought.  Santa had sunk into the barn over nite Christmas eve and tied a big ribbon around the pile with a card from Dad.  The card promised that he would come to the farm (The uncle was really his uncle, so our great uncle) for two weeks in July.  He would help us to build a tree house.

I, especially, was excited.  I had always been interested it "playing" with tools and wood.  My brother was excited as well, but his artistic endeavors were more in the line of paint brushes and paint. 

As we commenced with construction, we got to talking about fighting off indians and cattle rustlers and maybe even pirates.  In those days, it was alright, and maybe even encouraged, for kids to play with toy guns and make believe shooting at the bad guys.  Of course, after watching the shooter up western that played for the entertainment of all on Starday afternoon, we all wanted to be the bad guys.  Those guys had more freedom and a lot less responsibility.  As we worked and talked, our Dad quietly framed in some windows that opened out, some opened in and some were sliders.  Even the door had a slot with slider in it for shotgun or blunderbuss to stick out for protection.  We even ended up with a little door, not unlike a pet door today, where we could sneak in or out, depending on the direction of battle. 

We never did come under attack, but it was great when the two of us and a few friends would go up "on the hill" with sandwiches and soda, or sometimes stayed all nite, we talked about fighting Indians and rustlers.  Sometimes, when it was time to bring the cows down tot the barn at milking time, it was my job to bring them.  I loved working with the animals.  I of course, became the rustler along with maybe one or two others, while the rest devised ways to head us off at the pass.  Of course, "the rustlers" were never headed off and the cattle ended up penned in the thieves barn.

So, RMW, you see, I have had lots of experience with openings in the side of buildings.  ::) [unsure]
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #59 on: December 09, 2014, 03:23 PM »
Richard, I don't know how your code folks are, but here they don't count stuff that hangs off the building but doesn't increase the foundation footprint. Things like a bay window or a bump out.

Can't find a pic right now but I have seen folks that have created a bump out behind the SCMS to make room for the rails and stuff, so they can fit on a smaller space bench top.

Good idea, it's something I once considered as a way of creating a cubby for a compressor or to store a DeWalt contractors saw. Where our codes give me a problem is in setbacks, the shop sits 3' from our fence on 2 sides and I cannot encroach into that setback. Also for practical reasons I want to have room to get around the shop for maintenance, cleanup, etc.

I was looking at another thread on the FOG earlier today showing a Bosch SCMS that does not have the tubes off the rear, it got me thinking. I have to head over the Lowes/HD and measure the saw when it is in the tucked-in position. Now that the space is cleaned out to create some openness I am reluctant to fill it up again... although that is probably inevitable.

RMW

Richard, how about a flush door or a sliding door.  The flush door could open out when needed and it could be weather stripped. it could even be set up so it could open from inside and still open out.  Un noticeable to anybody until it is opened.

a double door with the bottom flipping down and the top flipping up could work so it never opens out.  Flashing for that could be very unobtrusive (as in not visable).

Of course that Bosch would solve all of the problems i have listed here  ::)

Whoops! I just now thought of another tale from the past.
As my brother and i had been dropped off at our Uncle's farm for two weeks while our parents sorted out their differences, the stay ended up lasting for 6 years. 

For our first or second Christmas on the farm, we had looked under the tree (which we had helped cut and drag down from the back pasture lot) hoping to find something there from our dad.  Our mom was there and we had already located piles of goodies from her.  When all packages had been opened and wrappers spread all over the floor (I know, nobody else makes that kind of mess), our mom took us out to the barn and showed us a big pile of lumber.  I had noticed the pile as i had been doing chores around and in the barn for over a week, but gave it no thought.  Santa had sunk into the barn over nite Christmas eve and tied a big ribbon around the pile with a card from Dad.  The card promised that he would come to the farm (The uncle was really his uncle, so our great uncle) for two weeks in July.  He would help us to build a tree house.

I, especially, was excited.  I had always been interested it "playing" with tools and wood.  My brother was excited as well, but his artistic endeavors were more in the line of paint brushes and paint. 

As we commenced with construction, we got to talking about fighting off indians and cattle rustlers and maybe even pirates.  In those days, it was alright, and maybe even encouraged, for kids to play with toy guns and make believe shooting at the bad guys.  Of course, after watching the shooter up western that played for the entertainment of all on Starday afternoon, we all wanted to be the bad guys.  Those guys had more freedom and a lot less responsibility.  As we worked and talked, our Dad quietly framed in some windows that opened out, some opened in and some were sliders.  Even the door had a slot with slider in it for shotgun or blunderbuss to stick out for protection.  We even ended up with a little door, not unlike a pet door today, where we could sneak in or out, depending on the direction of battle. 

We never did come under attack, but it was great when the two of us and a few friends would go up "on the hill" with sandwiches and soda, or sometimes stayed all nite, we talked about fighting Indians and rustlers.  Sometimes, when it was time to bring the cows down tot the barn at milking time, it was my job to bring them.  I loved working with the animals.  I of course, became the rustler along with maybe one or two others, while the rest devised ways to head us off at the .  Of course, "the rustlers" were never headed off and the cattle ended up penned in the thieves barn.

So, RMW, you see, I have had lots of experience with openings in the side of buildings.  ::) [unsure]
Tinker

Wayne, I'd swear you ginned up the "slider opening in my shop" idea to have an excuse to tell that story!  [poke]

I need to make a pilgrimage up there to, ahem, tour your shop to get ideas. Doubtless we would end up sitting on the porch swapping tales, and doubtless you would have many more than I do. That would be a fun afternoon.

Thanks for the story.

RMW
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Offline rvieceli

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #60 on: December 09, 2014, 03:31 PM »
Richard the only reason tinker would have more stories is that he is so much younger  [eek] and hasn't forgotten them yet.

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #61 on: December 09, 2014, 03:35 PM »
Richard the only reason tinker would have more stories is that he is so much younger  [eek] and hasn't forgotten them yet.

[scratch chin] Gotta ponder that one and try to figure out which one of us you are poking fun at....

RMW
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Offline Dan Clark

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #62 on: December 09, 2014, 04:23 PM »
<snip>
RMW

PS - what the heck is a CAR doing in your workshop???
Car?  What car?!?  [cool]

The better question is: Why is that miniscule space in front of the car posing as a shop!?!

Fortunately the car is now a Honda CRV - smaller and much more useful than my Audi.   But the available space is still miniscule.  Right now I'm pondering how I can make that miniscule space into a usable shop WITH the cars in the garage.  And be able to quickly set up a even more usable shop when one or two cars are moved out of the garage.  (And then moved back in.)

This thread is far more that a casual read for me.   The garage/shop has been reorganized since that pic was taken.   Lots of old unusable stuff has been thrown out or given away.  Tools move around to be more accessible.   Screws and other fasteners have been stored in plastic containers.   Blah, blah, blah...  But there is lots more to do.   

This thread has given me lots of ideas.  The workbench on the back right will be replaced with a heavier, more functional one.   My MFT (old series) will be installed in a much heavier, super-MFT workbench with wheels for mobility.  In a few days, I'll post a general workshop thread and a workbench-specific thread looking for "inspiration" (I need lots).

Regards,

Dan.

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #63 on: December 09, 2014, 05:23 PM »
<snip>
RMW

PS - what the heck is a CAR doing in your workshop???
Car?  What car?!?  [cool]

The better question is: Why is that miniscule space in front of the car posing as a shop!?!

Fortunately the car is now a Honda CRV - smaller and much more useful than my Audi.   But the available space is still miniscule.  Right now I'm pondering how I can make that miniscule space into a usable shop WITH the cars in the garage.  And be able to quickly set up a even more usable shop when one or two cars are moved out of the garage.  (And then moved back in.)

This thread is far more that a casual read for me.   The garage/shop has been reorganized since that pic was taken.   Lots of old unusable stuff has been thrown out or given away.  Tools move around to be more accessible.   Screws and other fasteners have been stored in plastic containers.   Blah, blah, blah...  But there is lots more to do.   

This thread has given me lots of ideas.  The workbench on the back right will be replaced with a heavier, more functional one.   My MFT (old series) will be installed in a much heavier, super-MFT workbench with wheels for mobility.  In a few days, I'll post a general workshop thread and a workbench-specific thread looking for "inspiration" (I need lots).

Regards,

Dan.

Dan, the rolling MFT/Cart project is one I am dying to get back to. The (2) 80/20 frames you see in some of my photos are V1.0 & V1.1, and after putting them together, rolling them around a bit and staring at them for endless hours I am still not satisfied with either. V2.0 is in the planning stages, and both of the current ones will be disassembled and the 80/20 reused.

I have been gathering photos and sketches as I went, so I can chime in on your upcoming thread with some ideas on what not to do. [censored]

The positive news is that with the extra space & flexibility I now have it looks like I can add another work surface that folds down (or up), at the same height as the MFT/carts and it may even connect to them. Something modular that I can configure for the project du jour. It also occurs to me that using French cleats, at the correct height, I can add an extension to the MFT/cart connecting to the wall. Something like a rectangular frame of 80/20 with plywood, no legs and brackets on each end for the French cleats & cart.

I'm also trying to incorporate the little DeWalt contractor saw into one of the carts, and now Tinker has me thinking about the Bosch glider saw.

That all comes after completing the insulation and sheathing, which I hope to get done between Xmas & new years. Perhaps by the spring I can stop working ON the shop and start working IN the shop.

RMW
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Offline Tinker

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #64 on: December 09, 2014, 08:27 PM »
My problem has always been, and especially is now, that with all of your ideas, along with those i keep chiming in with, i end up working in my shop instead of on my shop.  The space just keeps getting less and less as the toys, wood and the etc's just keep getting more and more.  sometime in the next twenty or hundred years, or so, i will retire and then i will have time to clear the space.  As soon as I reach 40

Dan, i will be looking forward to seeing all of what you come up with as well as Richards continuing journey.  You guys have given me lots of ideas.  Good ideas.
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline Tinker

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #65 on: December 10, 2014, 08:34 AM »
Another idea I have bouncing around among the rocks in my head is not really one of my own.  I have watched several vids where workbenches have been constructed with drop down sides, or ends.  The most recent example having been Peter Parfit's (New Brit Workshop)portable workBench project. His bench has bothe ends dropping down.  Others have shown drop down sides.

In my shop, the biggest space problem is walk around space front and back of my MFT bench.  I find that at least 90% of my cuts could happen with a table no wider that the narrowest dimension of my MFT 600, or narrower.  If I need to break down a piece of plywood, I do the preliminary cutting out at the barn and then bring into the shop for final dimensioning.  Many of those dimensioning cuts could be done on a narrow table, but occasionally, it would be necessary to have a wider table, in which case, I could raise an extra width in the form of a flip up extension. 

I have a couple of more solid benches along one wall of the shop, (where I do planing and chiseling >>> wood chiseling that is) but need to redesign a wall with tool cabinets.  I have been putting tool drawers and/or shelves, either in design stage (mostly in my head) or already build with leftover stock from other projects.  It would be inconvenient to have drop down top at both sides of my cutting bench (with swiss cheese holes as Festoy designed), but one design I have observed has flip down/up tabs located at drawer or shelf uprights.  A piece of MDF or ply wood could be stored out of the way to be brought out to the table when needed.

I am currently working with my MFT/3 and MFT 600 in tandem.  It is a long hazardous stroll to get from one side of my main bench (MFT/3) to the other.  I could eliminate one or the other, or both by building a narrower bench with flip downs.  One of my problems is that I have no overhead space to work on assemblies on either of the two MFT's.  I do have a couple of WorkMates (each from a different era and so much difference in heights).  Both of those have a full height and a lower with the legs folded.  An even lower height can maybe be established by folding the WM completely.  I have not dragged them out in several years, so I am not certain about that last option.  A frame could be constructed for assembly purposes that could be anchored to the WM at set at the lowest height and still have enough surface area for quite late assemblies in both horizontal area as well as height. 

I have found that in using the MFT/3 in tandem with the MFT 600, the older table is just a 2x4 width lower than the MFT/3.  When I need a longer surface for cutting long lumber or 8 foot plywood sheet, about 4 or more short lengths of 2x4 give me as close to level surface for cutting as I can get, considering my floor is a tad wavy. 

I am working on my Christmas presents for now, with working on a somewhat complicated trestle table for a cousin.  I don't really have room to do the top in my shop, so when I am finished with the Chrismas "shopping", I want to make some wall shelves/cabinets so i can get some of my tools into some sort of reasonable order.  Richard and Dan, you guys are shaming me into at least getting serious.  I'm going to find it necessary to stop visiting your posts from now on, as every now and then, THE BOSS looks over my shoulder.  [eek] Her idea is "DO IT NOW" [scared]
Tinker
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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #66 on: December 10, 2014, 07:59 PM »
Wayne, my V1.0 MFT cart has the "flip down" extension you are thinking of.

208311-0

208313-1

208315-2

This cart is still not right, and it is going to be rebuilt, however I expect V2.0 to have similar extensions perhaps on both ends and the rear. As that cart will be around 60" by 30", with the extensions up it would be around 50" deep and 100" long, perhaps slightly bigger.

RMW
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Offline Tinker

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #67 on: December 10, 2014, 08:24 PM »
I am thinking something about 2ft x 4ft with a backside that flips up 2 make it 3ft x 4ft
With a rolling cart, or one of my WorkMates on casters would give me variable length.

Another thought is something like Ron Paulks bench about 2x 6 with a drop down back side or cleats on both sides that would swing up and a piece of plywood to go over one of the sides.  A bench over four feet in width would close up all walking space. 

I keep bouncing ideas around and probably, when i get to actually do something, it will depend on my thought for the day.  When building stuff for my shop, i never use glue.  Always pocket screws so when i change my mind, nothing gets wasted other than time when i pull stuff apart for rebuild.  I have several small cabinets that are second, third and even fourth generation.

When i was doing masonry, once a brick or stone was in place, that was IT.  Never moved again.  This woodwork is tougher for making decisions.  Wood, nails and screws are so much easier to make changes than cement and stone.

I did have a job once where I built a stone wall five times.  Every time i finished, the owner decided he wanted it done differently.  We just tore it down and rearranged the stone to his specs and, of course, to what he could afford.  That was nearly 30 years ago.  I go past the house occasionally and I don't think I have been past more than four or five times before that wall has been redone.  I guess I caught the disease from him when it comes to my shop.
Tinker
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Offline jobsworth

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #68 on: December 17, 2014, 11:37 AM »
Here ya go , This is what Ive been dealing with. I have figured out how to increase my storage space. Im building a cabinet to fit under the kapex MFT for starters.
Loving the Calif sun....

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #69 on: December 17, 2014, 05:54 PM »
Here ya go , This is what Ive been dealing with. I have figured out how to increase my storage space. Im building a cabinet to fit under the kapex MFT for starters. (Attachment Link)

Geeze, I see a ton of empty air space there! I could cram 2-3 more MFT's and probably a couple Uni-Saw's in there and still have room to stand...  [poke]

Seriously though, the space under the MFT/Kapex, etc. is low hanging fruit, ripe for storing some systainers, which frees up the walls for lumber, etc.

I hope to get the rest of the insulation in this weekend, then I have to make a decision on the sheathing for the walls. I really don't want to use drywall but it may be the path of least resistance.

RMW
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Offline Tinker

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #70 on: December 18, 2014, 04:15 AM »
How about CD plywood. Much cheaper than wood panelling, but sturdier for small shop than drywall.  With that, you can screw anything onto anywhere on any walls without necessarily having to find the studs. Not pretty, but you can paint it white for better light in the shop. with tight space, you sometimes need to swap a board end to end and in swapping ends, a collision with wall is sometimes inevitable.  Drywall can end up with permanent damage such as holes in wall. With ply, a surprise bounce is all the damage.
Tinker

 
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Offline wow

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #71 on: December 18, 2014, 07:07 AM »
I agree with the idea that sheetrock is kind of a last choice. Tinker made some great points:

• you can screw anything anywhere
• no need to find the studs for most non-structural loads
• you can paint it white for better light in the shop
• a 'hit' to the wall usually doesn't result in damage

Plus:
• adds structural rigidity
• may reduce sound transmission

The down side:
• More flammable than sheet rock - by far!
• You can't easily fill and tape the screw holes and seams, but from a few feet back i don't notice mine unless I look for them
• Can't be repaired like sheetrock - like if you cut an outlet hole in the wrong spot  [embarassed]

I have 5/8" particle board on my shop walls, painted white. It wasn't so much a planned choice as a lucky happenstance. When they closed the Builders Square stores many years ago, they sold the pallet racking separate from the sheets of particle board that were the 'shelves'. Not a lot of people wanted the sheets of particle board because they had been cut slightly under 4' x 8' to sit between the rails on the pallet racking. I can't remember how many trailers full I bought but I *do* remember that I paid a buck a sheet.

The studs in my shop are 24" on center, so I ended up cutting the length to 6 feet to go center-to-center on the studs. The walls are something like 10' 4-1/2" high, so I used the width (or 'height' on the walls) that they came in - I think it was 45" or something like that. I only cut the final top piece to fit. BTW, I had a Holzer panel saw at the time so cutting the sheets was a cinch. Handling them by myself, however, was a real pain in the back!!! Thinking about it again is causing me retroactive back pain.

If I ever build another shop I would use plywood as my first choice, and OSB as my second. If you should ever decide that you want the taped seams and smooth look of drywall, you could always install drywall over the top of the other materials and get the best of both worlds. Plus, if you did it right, you'd get fantastic sound deadening as a side bonus!
« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 09:56 AM by wow »
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Offline Tinker

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #72 on: December 18, 2014, 07:29 AM »
you wood repair plyscord basically the same way you patch a hole in sheetrock.  Tapered edges to both the error hole and the repair patch, a bit of glue and enuf pressure to hold in place until glue begins to set.  Just don't try attaching anything by screwing into the patch later on.  The only part of the equation that is missing would be hiding the patch with tape.

Maybe it would not be very pretty, but what the heck, it would always be a reminder to always cut twice and measure once.    [eek]
Tinker
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Offline RobBob

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #73 on: December 18, 2014, 08:23 AM »
I think you would regret sheet rock in a shop.  FWIW, I used 3/4" fire resistant plywood for the walls in my shop.

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #74 on: December 18, 2014, 09:12 AM »
Plywood is my plan B, if I can't locate something nicer at a decent cost. All told it's only around 450 SF of material, but from a cost perspective even AC Plywood is about $30/sheet or $1/PSF.

I really don't want to spend ~$500 for materials so I am hoping to find a creative solution, perhaps recycling/reusing something from a house being renovated here on the island. Unfortunately most of the materials being removed received flood damage and are moldy.

OSB is cheap enough but I really dislike the look, my last shop had it and it always bugged me. Since the shop doubles as the out-of-the-wind/rain hang out while smoking (meats and tobacco) I do want to keep some aesthetics if possible.

I may be forced to go with drywall for cost reasons, if so I will definitely be using French Cleats to reduce the need to screw into it, and I may add another row of plywood blocking behind it if I can decide on an all-around ideal height for it.

Thanks for the suggestions so far, keep them coming.

RMW 

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Offline Dane

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #75 on: December 18, 2014, 09:57 AM »
I did my last shop walls with Advantech sheathing.  It is zero VOC, so it doesn't stink like regular OSB and it is much denser for screw holding and, in my opinion, looks better.  I whitewashed it to lighten it up, can patch holes with Durhams water putty.

Offline rvieceli

  • Posts: 699
Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #76 on: December 18, 2014, 11:08 AM »
Think about a hybrid system for the walls. Maybe wood behind the cabinets all the way to the ceiling. Then drywall the ceiling area.
Then a wooden wainscot on the lower half of the remaining walls with drywall above to the top.

Would give you some protection from dings on the base and behind the bench. But cut your cost by using drywall elsewhere.

You could use 1/2 ply and 1/2 inch drywall. Or if you could find some salvaged t&g wood you could use that.

Ron

Offline jobsworth

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #77 on: December 18, 2014, 02:08 PM »
Using the photo to find air space, yea buddy, I got plenty more room to fill. Ill start on the air space after I fill the spaces under the Kapex and MFT
Loving the Calif sun....

Offline jobsworth

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #78 on: December 19, 2014, 11:16 AM »
Built a cheesey cabinet to go under the Kapex, Im surprized how much stuff I can put in that little cheesey cab. freed up a lot of space. Now tomorrow I go and reorg once more moving things around filling and optimizing space until I build the cab to fit under the MFT and then repeat the reorg.... for example I have a cabinet in the back of the shop thats inconveinent to get to, so Ill move it to a more convient place and fill it with more stuff.
If I keep this up, Ill have to buy mmore tools to fill all that empty space.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 11:22 AM by jobsworth »
Loving the Calif sun....

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #79 on: December 28, 2014, 08:00 PM »
Last week gave me some time off and good weather (50+ @ coastal southern NJ!!) so I got another chunk of work done on the shop remodel. After clearing out all the junk stuffed between the studs to do the electrical/insulation I ended up with a pile of material to be stored somewhere. With the nice weather I focused on building a material storage cart that fits into the weatherproof storage "shed" under the deck. Consider this to be an okay idea suffering from poor design/execution...

Among the original principals of this project was not storing bulk materials inside the shop, there is just not enough room. A couple years ago I built a weatherproof shed in the 40-some high inch space under the deck near the shop, and slapped up a material storage rack that proved to be inefficient:

209378-0

209380-1

It turned out to be hard to find materials and the back half of the rack was most empty, I had to crawl in to get short stuff. The new idea was to have a cart on rollers so I can pull it mostly out to get to the sides and to the material in the rear.

209382-2

209384-3

209388-4

The idea seems to be okay, but I failed to allow for a cart that probably weighs 500-600#s +. There is a slight ramp up from the deck to the runners for the casters and I could not lift the casters onto it.

209386-5

As it stands I had to use a lever to lift the end of the cart to get the forward casters onto the runners & I can only pull it out ~20" or so without having the front casters drop onto the deck again.

209390-6

209392-7

I am considering rebuilding it and putting 2 pairs of casters on the runners, inverted, and adding a runner to the underside of the cart. This would leave one set of casters on the cart in the front to roll on the deck, and 2 sets inverted and screwed the the floor of the shed with the runners on the cart resting on them. I think I can space the inverted casters to hold the weight of the total cart until I pull it out < 50%, then it will tip slightly and the front casters will pick up the load and roll on the deck. Kind of like how the lumber carts @ Home Depot pivot on center casters depending on where which end has the most weight, if that makes any sense.

As always, suggestions are welcome.

RMW
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Offline rvieceli

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #80 on: December 28, 2014, 09:30 PM »
Richard - is there a structural reason that 2x4 runner needs to be in the storage shed?

If not maybe notch that piece at the front to allow the cart wheel to stay level. Notch wouldn't have to significantly wider than than your 2x. Then move the runners you have in place over to the outside edges of the notch to keep the cart from wandering. Cart wheels stay level and on the deck should be easier to move.

If there's a structural reason for not doing either, then consider beefing it up from underneath.

Offline RobBob

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #81 on: December 28, 2014, 09:41 PM »
I think larger, better quality castors would help.

Offline rvieceli

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #82 on: December 29, 2014, 08:55 AM »
I've had some additional thoughts on your project... [smile]

In addition to keeping the path level outside to inside, let's beef up the wheels. Consider something like this one from Harbor Freight. It's a replacement hand truck wheel, 300lb capacity.

http://www.harborfreight.com/8-inch-solid-rubber-tire-42427.html

Bolt one of those on each side to the inside of you frame member in the back of your cart. If mostly what you are doing is pulling the cart straight out like a drawer, then I'd also put another two of those on the front in the same way. If you only occasionally need to move the cart elsewhere then pick up something like this or make one.

http://www.harborfreight.com/1000-lb-capacity-mini-movers-dolly-61899.html

Pull the cart out, lever up the front end and stick the dolly in so you can turn.

If you will almost always be pulling the cart out and then moving it some place else and need to steer then it would probably be better to stick a rotating caster on the end. This would make it like a shopping cart.

If you don't like HF or have one nearby, Grainger should have all the parts as well. Also think lawn mover, wheel barrow or wagon wheels, just stay away from plastic hubs with the weight you've got.

Ron

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #83 on: December 29, 2014, 09:19 AM »
The reason for the runners is the lip on the edge of the shed, which I already sized the doors to rest on. I suppose I can equalize the height by reducing the lip and the height of the runners (Ron there is no structural reason for them, as you asked in an earlier post) to match the deck height and that may be enough to overcome the problem entirely. Then I can just add something to the bottom of the doors to raise them as necessary.

It would have been ideal for the deck and shed floor to be the same height, but the shed was built first and then I did not have enough height for the 2 by 8 deck joists when we decided to add it later.

I'll have to check the existing casters, which I believe are 500# capacity so I doubt they have plastic hubs. They are 6" OAL height, which was a compromise to retain as much usable height as possible.

Thanks for the input.

RMW
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Offline rvieceli

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #84 on: December 29, 2014, 09:42 AM »
OK. Then here is another suggestion.  Leave everything the way it is on the cart and under the shed.

Make a track extension to lay on the outside deck that is even with the track in the shed floor. So basically a repeat of what you have inside. throw them on the top of your cart. When you need to access something, open the doors , pull out the tracks, plop them on the deck and pull the car out. Should roll smoothly on the level surface.

If you can take four quarter inch holes drilled in the outside deck surface, I'd drill a hole in each end of the track and deck and drop a bolt in to make sure they stay where you put them

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #85 on: December 29, 2014, 10:19 AM »
That's a great idea. I may try that first, since it involves the least amount of re-work of all the options.

Thanks!

RMW
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Offline chris s

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Richard: I have been watching this thread for a while. I have one question. How is it working on the deck, do you loose many items thru the cracks?
 I have recently retired and going to redo my shop (that is as soon as I finish the requests from the wife). I basically have the same arrangement you do. I have an 8 by 12 shed that I am going To rehab into a shop/hangout. I also have Approx 2/3 of a one car garage to use.
 In addition to the normal hand tools and portable power tools I also have a metal lathe and milling machine along with a cabinet saw.
  That said I should mention I live just up the AC Expressway from you in Williamstown. I like alot of your ideas and will incorporate some of them into my plan.
   Perhaps I might even take photos nd document the process it might be a hoot to do it. Chris
 

Offline Tinker

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Richard: I have been watching this thread for a while. I have one question. How is it working on the deck, do you loose many items thru the cracks?
 I have recently retired and going to redo my shop (that is as soon as I finish the requests from the wife). [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn] I basically have the same arrangement you do. I have an 8 by 12 shed that I am going To rehab into a shop/hangout. I also have Approx 2/3 of a one car garage to use.
 In addition to the normal hand tools and portable power tools I also have a metal lathe and milling machine along with a cabinet saw.
  [unsure] [eek]
  That said I should mention I live just up the AC Expressway from you in Williamstown. I like alot of your ideas and will incorporate some of them into my plan.
   Perhaps I might even take photos nd document the process it might be a hoot to do it. Chris

Tinker
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Offline Richard/RMW

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Richard: I have been watching this thread for a while. I have one question. How is it working on the deck, do you loose many items thru the cracks?
 I have recently retired and going to redo my shop (that is as soon as I finish the requests from the wife). [popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn] I basically have the same arrangement you do. I have an 8 by 12 shed that I am going To rehab into a shop/hangout. I also have Approx 2/3 of a one car garage to use.
 In addition to the normal hand tools and portable power tools I also have a metal lathe and milling machine along with a cabinet saw.
  [unsure] [eek]
  That said I should mention I live just up the AC Expressway from you in Williamstown. I like alot of your ideas and will incorporate some of them into my plan.
   Perhaps I might even take photos nd document the process it might be a hoot to do it. Chris

Tinker


Tinkeeerrrrr......  [poke]

Chris, howdy from a fellow South Jersey denizen. I was out your way last week, stumbled upon Joseph Fazzio's and lost 2 hours of my life wandering around in a daze fingering metal bars and industrial hardware. I ran out of time and skipped thier surplus building, which is probably a good thing since I have no place to put anything, but I've gotta go back soon.

The deck works fine, although there is at least a 1/2# of screws under it by now. I ignore the screws for the most part, but when I drop a 1/4" hex bit thru I just fish it out with a magnet on a string.

I also enjoy working outside except it shuts me down this time of year, and I am forced to tidy everything up each day and pack it all back inside. This should become less hassle when I get the 2 mobile MFT carts finished.

Hope to have some progress to report soon, I think I need to get the rest of the displaced stuff up on the walls temporarily so I have room to work, then focus on the MFT carts so I have functional work stations, & then get back to closing up the walls and finishing up permanent storage cabinets, etc.

By that time I will have negated the need for heat for another year...  [doh]

Look forward to seeing your posts on your project.

RMW
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Offline rvieceli

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My "temporary" fixes tend to become long term semi-permanent fixes. [sad]

I vote for closing in the walls while the stuff is down. Throw up those sawhorse work stations on the deck and cut some drywall or ply or whatever.

Ron

Offline rizzoa13

  • Posts: 539
Joseph fazzios is my idea of Nirvana. That place is amazing. I absolutely love welding for some odd reason and every time i go there its like a family vacation.

Check out their 8/4 - 12/4 (Maybe some 16/4?) cherry, oak and maple planks they have out front. Nice and wide stuff at a good price.

Offline Richard/RMW

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Joseph fazzios is my idea of Nirvana. That place is amazing. I absolutely love welding for some odd reason and every time i go there its like a family vacation.

Check out their 8/4 - 12/4 (Maybe some 16/4?) cherry, oak and maple planks they have out front. Nice and wide stuff at a good price.

We are kindred spirits. Sandy got my MIG welder and the boss got the insurance payment we received, and I never got a replacement. Recently I have been drooling over some TIG welders and trying to dream up a project for the boss that justifies the, ahem, "need" for it.

Last week they had 5/4 by 3 S4S mahogany (their description) for $2/ LF along with some wider rough stock. Sounds like their selection changes, which is more of a reason to drop by & see what's new.

RMW
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Offline Richard/RMW

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My "temporary" fixes tend to become long term semi-permanent fixes. [sad]

I vote for closing in the walls while the stuff is down. Throw up those sawhorse work stations on the deck and cut some drywall or ply or whatever.

Ron

Wish it were that simple, wet and snowy here now, there is no floor space to shuffle stuff to and nowhere to store excess material over a couple weeks while working on it 2-3 hours at a time.

Part of the challenge of wholesale change with a small space is just the logistics.

RMW
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Offline rvieceli

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I understand. But maybe something like a storage pod in your driveway for a month. Put all your stuff in there and keep the shop clear.

www.pods.com

Offline Tinker

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I understand. But maybe something like a storage pod in your driveway for a month. Put all your stuff in there and keep the shop clear.

www.pods.com

Somehow, I get the idea it might not be a simple as that.  Houses are pretty close together in Richards area.  I think if he puts a pod in his driveway, he will have to rent a space to put his car [unsure].  Or put a flat roof on his house and buy a helicopter [scared]
Tinker
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Offline SittingElf

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  Or put a flat roof on his house and buy a helicopter [scared]
Tinker

Yup! That would be MY solution!! [thumbs up]



This is a great thread. Very entertaining as well as full of great ideas!  Stealing some....

Cheers,

Frank
Woodworking is 3% talent and 97% paying attention to the FOG! 

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Offline rvieceli

  • Posts: 699
Ok ok but surely Richard's got a living room or a dining room where he can pile things.  [poke] [tongue]

If he did that I'm fairly confident he would get the shop finished faster.  [big grin]

Ron

Offline rizzoa13

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If you need a hand when the whether breaks building something Richard let me know. I live just up the white horse pike and would love to help you out.

Offline Richard/RMW

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If you need a hand when the whether breaks building something Richard let me know. I live just up the white horse pike and would love to help you out.

Thanks, a plan is taking shape....

I'll get Tinker to put his muscles where his mouth is, and take over the masonry work for the to-be-built pizza oven...  [poke]

Frank can airlift the materials into the back yard...  [not worthy]

You, Ron and I can lounge and sip cool beverages, while providing Wayne with constructive suggestions and correcting his mistakes...  [scratch chin]

Then we'll toss a pork loin on the egg and swap tales late into the night.  [drooling]

Who's in?  [thumbs up]

RMW
« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 09:49 AM by Richard/RMW »
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Offline Knight Woodworks

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Me! I'll bring the beer.

John

Offline rizzoa13

  • Posts: 539
Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #100 on: January 24, 2015, 07:27 PM »
Ehh I think I'll throw my homemade 4 keg kegerator in the back of the truck and take care of the beer situation! Even at 39 Wayne is older than me so I just wouldn't feel right having him do all the work I'll need to make some mistakes too.

Offline Tinker

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #101 on: January 24, 2015, 08:07 PM »
I've been playin' in the snow all day.  I'll think about all that playin' with a dutch oven later. [popcorn] As for correcting my mistooks, you no i nvr mak mstaks. :P

i don't have to think twice about the pork loin and beer tho.  [thumbs up]
I like german dark

Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline rvieceli

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #102 on: January 24, 2015, 08:18 PM »
Me me me  [big grin]

Offline Richard/RMW

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Spring arrived in Brigantine yesterday, at least for me it was the first day this year where I had (a) clear weather (b) no snow on the ground and (c) time. Took advantage of the situation to clear out enough piled up junk to make the shop quasi functional and play a bit.

The next big house project (after finishing the shop) will be new cabinets in the laundry/utility area, probably 3-4 months from now. When we moved in we reused the old junk kitchen cabinets from the original house in the utility area, they are cheap 5/8" particle board hot-glued/stapled construction. Last week one wall cabinet gave up the battle and started falling off the wall so I needed a quickie cabinet to get us by until the re-do, it gave me a chance to practice cabinet-making.

First I sized the material using the woodpecker rule/stop to mark length, woodpecker square to align the guide rail @ 90 degrees and rip guides to cut to width width, using the 80/20 knock down table:

216578-0

I use green masking tape to mark reference surfaces, top/outside corner. My LR32 is pieced together, I don't have the guides so I used a short set of rip guides instead:

216580-1

216582-2

216584-3

Clamping to the 80/20 extension arms is really flexible where they overhang the table frame, in this case the clamp secures the guide rail and material to the arm:

216586-4

Domino's for alignment and strength:

216588-5

216590-6

Pocket holes for assembly:

216592-7

Overall it worked out great, it was the first time I used the LR32 and the results were perfect. I didn't even mess anything up until I managed to pocket-hole the wrong side of the top...

Best part was just getting outside and making some sawdust, and getting to use the TS/CT/LR32/Domino as a system, as it is designed to be used. Not a crumb of sawdust until I got the the pocket holes.

RMW


 
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Offline Cheese

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Spring arrived in Brigantine yesterday, at least for me it was the first day this year where I had (a) clear weather (b) no snow on the ground and (c) time. Took advantage of the situation to clear out enough piled up junk to make the shop quasi functional and play a bit.


Nice to just get outside and work in the fresh air & sunshine after the snow leaves.

Really love your 80/20 table. How long does it take to set up?
Do you use the regular socket head cap screws to hold it together or do you have some sort of quick clamping system instead?

Offline Richard/RMW

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Spring arrived in Brigantine yesterday, at least for me it was the first day this year where I had (a) clear weather (b) no snow on the ground and (c) time. Took advantage of the situation to clear out enough piled up junk to make the shop quasi functional and play a bit.


Nice to just get outside and work in the fresh air & sunshine after the snow leaves.

Really love your 80/20 table. How long does it take to set up?
Do you use the regular socket head cap screws to hold it together or do you have some sort of quick clamping system instead?

Cheese - it takes about 10 minutes to setup, I mostly use the 80/20 standard end fasteners. They require threading the hole in the end of the extrusion, then drilling an access hole in the slot of the piece you want to mate to it. Quick and easy.

Here's a video showing the setup sped up 4X:



RMW
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Offline rvieceli

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Richard - didn't you have a few pics of your table build and those pieces of 8020 with the mdf sides?

I can't seem to find them?

thanks - ron

Offline Richard/RMW

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Richard - didn't you have a few pics of your table build and those pieces of 8020 with the mdf sides?

I can't seem to find them?

thanks - ron

Ron,

There are a couple threads where I posted photos, etc. Here, here and here are the ones I could locate.

RMW
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Offline rvieceli

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Thanks Richard

Offline Richard/RMW

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Steering this thread back to the original topic, i.e. my shop update, my next task is to finish the insulation (~2 hours) then start drywall installation wall-by-wall.  The plan is to do a wall, then install french cleats, move stuff from another wall, then do that wall, etc. I', finally forced to focus on the details of the cleats, so I am looking for any input.

This drawing (first attempt at using Layout in Sketchup) shows the current idea:

  • OAL wall height is just over 98"
  • My standard height for work surfaces is 37"/940mm
  • Bottom cleat finishes off at 940mm OAL height
  • Upper cleat finishes off at 97" - may come down a tad for clearance if necessary
  • Intermediate cleats are set in 300mm increments from the top down

216665-0

Pardon the messy dimensions, I design in metric but still think in Imperial.

Input is welcomed.

RMW
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Offline rvieceli

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As you mentioned, you might have some clearance issues with the top row. Maybe mock up something and try it out before committing.

I'm also concerned about the first row at your worktop height. Will you want to push a cart or worktable up against the wall to get it out of the way?

I'm also of the opinion that maybe the whole French cleat system might be a bit of overkill for your space. And might end up making more work for what ever problems it solves. The main advantage of the system is the ability to make easily make changes in the racking and storage system. From looking at your photos from the before side, you seem to be very organized and have a good method for organizing. I really like the rods and the pegs system you have. Also in a small space there are only certain spots that things fit and also fit into your work flow.

Having to add a cleat on the back of your already seemingly good approach to storage seems like just extra work. Sort of like all those shelf pin holes that every one puts in, but most folks never change the position of the shelves.

Offline socaljohn

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Matthias Wandel has a system that works for him. He must like it since he has continued using it after moving to a new shop.

http://woodgears.ca/tool_holders/
http://woodgears.ca/tool_holders/making.html

Offline Tinker

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I like Mattias's tool wall setup.  Very neat and able to get a lot of small tools into small space.  I have bookmarked but I still like the idea of frnch cleats.  I have moved things around too many times to even think in my dreams that any setup might be permanent.  I have started reorganizing my shop this weekend (finally) for what should be the last time.  i am only 39, so still young and impetuous.  Things will get moved probably many more times.  My grandson gave me a hand moving the heavy stuff on saturday.  On Sunday, i started clearing the floor and hidden corners, cutting all the scraps with my SCMS for kindling wood.  Some of the scraps were straight and large enough to be used for cutting boards, trays and other small projects.  Those will end up in ........ Oh, i guess i will stop speculating on where they will go.  for now, i can actually see the floor of my shop.  You guys have inspired me.

back to Mattias's wall:  I like the setup, but like FC system as I can move small shelves and boxes around to different locations.  For now, i am trying to set up to make best use of two MFT's MFT/3 for main bench and center of work area.  The smaller 800 is against the wall so all i have to do is turn around from the /3.  All of my Festoy clamps and almost all of tools I use with MFT's, TS 55 and the Festoy router table will be grouped with under the two tables or on the wall within easy reach.

I have two solid wood work benches that are along wall areas with heavy tools such as hammers, mallets, chisels, planes, heavier clamps and other tools not used on the MFT's
Since the two benches are at opposite sides of the shop, i am hoping that i can work out a system with the french cleats where I can select the tools needed and just move a panel from one side of shop to the other.  With rearranging of the benches, stationary sanders and SCMS, i now can walk around the shop with room to spare.  Well, not a lot of room. Just more.  My GS and I are both quite slim but we could not walk, or even slide past on another in working around the /3.  We now can get around without sucking in our breaths.  It is great and I am sure it will be far more enjoyable for Andrew.
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

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Matthias puts out an amazing amount of work, I really respect the way he built a business around his videos, lots of great & clever ideas.

Personally, I don't care to have hand tools hanging on the walls, they live in cabinet drawers. My exposed wall storage will be limited to tools that don't fit in drawers, handsaws, layout squares, straight edges, clamps, guide rails and my 80/20 knock-down table. These are things I will probably rearrange at times, hence the F/C lend themselves to them.

Anything else such as finishes, infrequently used bench tools (Drill Doctor/Arbor Press/Hand Tapper/Metal Chop Saw), shop supplies will go in cabinets. The F/C give me the option to move the cabinets during a reorganization.

Some tools like the chop saw and drum sander will have their own F/C platform, idea being I can pull the whole thing down from an upper position to the working height cleat, use it and then return to the upper storage area.

Lastly, I am thinking things like a router table or shelf for the TS55 can be moved around as needed, then stored out of the way when not in use. To fit all this stuff I need to have some things at ceiling height when not in use, so the F/C seems like a flexible system.

We'll see how it all works out.

RMW


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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #114 on: February 06, 2016, 10:34 PM »
Holy Cow! It's been nearly a year since I made any significant progress on my shop rehab. Thanks to a gentle prod by @rvieceli on another thread (thanks Ron!), and with one of the nicest days any February can be asked to serve up, I got about 1/2 the shop walls insulated and buttoned up.

I had planned to use T1-11 but conveniently my HD did not stock the thin stuff I wanted, but they did have a lift of pretty nice 5mm underlayment @ $11 bucks a sheet, so I made do:



I also got some ~ 5/16" T&G cedar for the ceiling. Hope to get the walls buttoned up tomorrow, and possibly make some progress on the ceiling or french cleats.

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Offline rvieceli

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #115 on: February 06, 2016, 10:47 PM »
Looking good Richard.  [thumbs up] [thumbs up]

Offline Holmz

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #116 on: February 07, 2016, 12:05 AM »
That looks like "a spend up" on the outlets...
(And wise to have more than you think you need)

Offline Picktool

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #117 on: February 07, 2016, 06:33 AM »
Very nice, coming along well.

@Richard/RMW

I had 1/2" plywood on garage walls for a few years and stumbled
along this siding @ Lowes and put it right over it

http://www.lowes.com/pd_15601-132-27905___?productId=3051241&pl=1&Ntt=siding+mdf+panel#img

$21/4x8 @ 7/16"th - It has a pleasing wood grain pressed into this stuff.
You could cut this in half and use it the upper parts of the walls
and finish the lower section w/ some wainscot/plywood to break up the
wood crate look. I have a ways to go with finishing my shop but lil here
lil there its coming along.

Painting it may be a chore, im probably going to spray it.

Sort of like a masonite material to say or dark  mdf
that cuts well and has a few patterns you can alternate.



Well Dogey

Offline chris s

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #118 on: February 07, 2016, 08:59 AM »
Richard; when you insulated the ceiling, did you put anything between the plywood and the insulation? I am thinking of those trough like things. Also are the walls insulated? My shop is similar to yours and I have been thinking of insulating, mainly so I can use it year round.
  I have to put a new roof on it as soon as the weather breaks, and think I will raise it up about 4" to make it seem larger.
                                                                                               Chris

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #119 on: February 08, 2016, 04:25 PM »
Very nice, coming along well.

@Richard/RMW

I had 1/2" plywood on garage walls for a few years and stumbled
along this siding @ Lowes and put it right over it

http://www.lowes.com/pd_15601-132-27905___?productId=3051241&pl=1&Ntt=siding+mdf+panel#img

$21/4x8 @ 7/16"th - It has a pleasing wood grain pressed into this stuff.
You could cut this in half and use it the upper parts of the walls
and finish the lower section w/ some wainscot/plywood to break up the
wood crate look. I have a ways to go with finishing my shop but lil here
lil there its coming along.

Painting it may be a chore, im probably going to spray it.

Sort of like a masonite material to say or dark  mdf
that cuts well and has a few patterns you can alternate.

That is similar to what I want planning on using, until HD was out of it. I grabbed the underlayment so I could just get it done while the weather held. The plan is to give it a coat of satin poly & run a vertical strip around @ the level of the outlets to break it up and pack it out to ~1/2" so the cover plates fit properly. Also the french cleats will break things up a bit.

While a PITA having to unload all the cabinets and storage racks, it did convince me to relocate some shelves in order to open up the space a bit, still undetermined exactly how though. Using the cleats should let me rearrange stuff until satisfied.

Here's how thing stood midday yesterday before I loaded everything back inside for the night.

   

RMW
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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #120 on: February 08, 2016, 04:31 PM »
Richard; when you insulated the ceiling, did you put anything between the plywood and the insulation? I am thinking of those trough like things. Also are the walls insulated? My shop is similar to yours and I have been thinking of insulating, mainly so I can use it year round.
  I have to put a new roof on it as soon as the weather breaks, and think I will raise it up about 4" to make it seem larger.
                                                                                               Chris

Chris - I did not run anything under the plywood/above the insulation. That insulation is wrapped all the way around in poly. Are you thinking about condensation building up? The eaves are vented.

The walls are totally insulated, with the insulation in place and a 750 watt radiant panel I can leave the heat on @40 degrees and it costs dimes a day. I prefer to work around 50 degrees in the winter anyway, so heating it up a bit more does not take long.

RMW

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Offline rvieceli

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #121 on: February 08, 2016, 05:03 PM »
Richard, that looks great. Does that just leave you the wall behind the bench to finish?

honestly, I was a bit concerned about the thickness of the stuff you are using. But then I remembered how much of that stuff will be covered by the cleats and I realized you'll be fine. In reality, that stuff is just protecting the insulation.

Is that a narrow crown stapler or a finish nailer you're putting it up with?

Ron

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #122 on: February 08, 2016, 05:16 PM »
Richard, that looks great. Does that just leave you the wall behind the bench to finish?

honestly, I was a bit concerned about the thickness of the stuff you are using. But then I remembered how much of that stuff will be covered by the cleats and I realized you'll be fine. In reality, that stuff is just protecting the insulation.

Is that a narrow crown stapler or a finish nailer you're putting it up with?

Ron

Ron - it is a narrow crown stapler, mostly just enough fasteners to hold the stuff up until I get the cleats in place. I was tossed on the thickness also but I think it will work out fine. Hope to avoid screwing stuff all over the walls anyway, and this will force me to be deliberate.

RMW
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Offline chris s

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #123 on: February 10, 2016, 09:13 AM »
Richard; I was thinking about condensation,however if the insulation is wrapped I think it is ok. Something I did not consider.
                                 Chris

Offline TSO Products

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #124 on: February 10, 2016, 05:32 PM »
cutting aluminum extrusions: AMANA's non-ferrous blade worked fine for me extended period of time on a DeWalt cut-off saw
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE Guide Rail Squares -  the MTR-18 Triangle and Work Holding solutions

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #125 on: February 27, 2016, 06:22 PM »
We had another unreal February day today, around 40 with blue skies and no breeze, a great day to work in the shop.

Today saw some progress getting the French cleats installed, relocating clamps and getting some stuff back onto the walls and out of the way.







I was lucky to grab a bunch of Revo's when Amazon had one of their periodic sales that another Fogger posted earlier this winter, so there is a ample supply of clamps needing a home.

Tomorrow looks to be at least as beautiful as today, so I plan to get the last of the insulation and sheathing installed, and perhaps finish up the cleats.

RMW
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Offline rvieceli

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #126 on: February 27, 2016, 06:34 PM »
Looking good Richard!!!

It was almost 60 here today. Do yourself a favor and before you throw any more stuff on the cleats etc., put up at least a couple of rows of cedar at the top of the walls so you don't have to unload stuff to do it.

Ron

Offline Scorpion

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Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #127 on: February 27, 2016, 11:37 PM »




Great progress.  Like how accessible things are.

What are the things hanging below the clamps/clamp rack?

Offline Kev

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #128 on: February 28, 2016, 12:46 AM »
I love the "tiny house meets compact workshop" thing going on here [big grin]

An interesting density measure would be tool investment $'s per cubic metre (ok, cubic foot if you like!)

I'm going to take a stab and guess you're about 1,500 cubic feet .. with about a $75USD per cubic foot tool investment average.

(no real science in this - I'm just having some fun with the model and a wild stab)

I had a friend that had a small fishing boat years ago .. he was mad about efficiency. Nothing went on that boat unless he'd ensured is was either of a critical primary nature or highly multifunctional. Really changes your thinking! 


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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #129 on: February 28, 2016, 06:50 AM »
I love the "tiny house meets compact workshop" thing going on here [big grin]

An interesting density measure would be tool investment $'s per cubic metre (ok, cubic foot if you like!)

I'm going to take a stab and guess you're about 1,500 cubic feet .. with about a $75USD per cubic foot tool investment average.

(no real science in this - I'm just having some fun with the model and a wild stab)

I had a friend that had a small fishing boat years ago .. he was mad about efficiency. Nothing went on that boat unless he'd ensured is was either of a critical primary nature or highly multifunctional. Really changes your thinking!

@Kev - hadn't calced the cube, buuuut since you started it.... 874 cu/ft (11.5 by 9.5 by 8' I.D.)  [big grin] I won't even touch the $/PSF calc, my wife may stumble upon this someday.

At our last home my shop was 24' by 32' and I had it crammed with crap I never used, this one makes me really evaluate everything, I like it better. Not that I would refuse another 4' off the front, that would make it about perfect.

Funny thing is as I look at the clamp storage my immediate reaction is "there's a lot of wasted space here". Sometime soon I will make another set of those standards with the hole spacing calculated to leave 0.05mm between the clamps, THEN I will be satisfied.  [doh] It does become a bit of a sickness.

I have been jonesing for a larger air compressor, but to add it I would need to create a  weatherproof bump-out on the outside, and I keep drooling over the Kapex but it is a non-starter. One thing I need to add to the guiding principals (see bottom of original post) is that any commonly used bench tool needs to be able to be used without moving/setting it up. This cannot apply to things like the tablesaw, but should apply to drill press/grinders/sanders/etc. I have an idea of how to use the TS55 as a "chop saw" for small-ish stock, hope to get to that this spring sometime.

Anyway, it has been a fun challenge, although I just noted in the first post I labeled this my "winter project". In 2014. Oops.

RMW
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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #130 on: February 28, 2016, 07:32 AM »




Great progress.  Like how accessible things are.

What are the things hanging below the clamps/clamp rack?

@Scorpion - those are the "standards" for lack of any better name, that hold the 14mm stainless rods that the clamps rest on. Those were positioned after that photo was taken, you can see them in use in the next photo or the one below.



The holes are drilled at a 2 degree angle, they've worked out great.

RMW
« Last Edit: February 28, 2016, 07:35 AM by Richard/RMW »
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Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #131 on: February 28, 2016, 06:29 PM »
I received some question via PM on the standards, so here's some more detail. They are 1" by 1.5" hard maple, the rods are 14mm stainless left over from our stair rail. Any 1/2" steel rod would work just as well.

The 2 degree holes were drilled on the little press, using this jig:



I just screwed some sections of the FC to the back to adapt them to the cleats.



Today I got the rest of the walls insulated and sheathed, and most of the FC installed.



Lessons learned this weekend:

  • If you are going to use the Powerhead screws and want them flushed, buy the drill gadget. I sheared off the tips of 3 square drives yesterday trying the flush them with the impact, then ordered the drill from Amazon Sunday delivery and it showed up today before noon. Major difference.
  • Set the FC heights at equal increments. Don't know why I didn't do this yesterday, but I am going to have to move my second row from the top on 2 walls to fix this.
  • If you are building a shop from scratch, decide where you want the FC before running electrical. There are 2 rows of nail plates, one below the outlets and another above the door, I hit both of them dead on with my preferred FC heights & had to adjust. Ticked me off no end.

And, for fun, this is what the shop looks like at the end of every day, although today is about 20% better than it has been since I started this phase.



Oh, and I burned out my TS55 today, cutting 70mm rips of birch ply for the cleats. Sparks inside the housing and burning plastic, not sure if the dull-ish blade was responsible? Off to the tool-medic tomorrow.

All in all, a satisfying weekend but for the dead saw.

RMW
« Last Edit: February 28, 2016, 06:33 PM by Richard/RMW »
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Offline Wooden Skye

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #132 on: February 28, 2016, 07:45 PM »
@Richard/RMW

You make me sick!  [big grin] It really is amazing how organized you are and the work you have done to this point is awesome!

Bryan

TS 55, (2) 1400 Guide Rails, 1900 Guide Rail, MFT/3, Domino DF 500, 2 domino systainers, ETS 150/3, RO 90, CT 26, (2) OF1400, RO 150. RTS 400, LR 32 set, PS300 jigsaw, 3 abrasive systainers, (2) sys toolbox, (2) sys mini, clamps and other accesories

Offline JesseC

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #133 on: February 29, 2016, 03:28 AM »
I love the pulls on the drawers! You never know when you are going to need to pop the top on a fresh construction soda.

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #134 on: February 29, 2016, 06:46 AM »
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=174553

This is an ongoing workshop build on another forum. Lots of nice workshop ideas.

@balrog - Matt is active here under the same name, i.e. Scorpion. I have not looked at his garage journal thread in some time, thanks for posting the link.

RMW
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After taking last weekend off to welcome The Boss home I had my first chance to work in the semi-complete shop - it only took 10 minute to drag the still-homeless stuff outside and I could get to the benches and tools:





Today's project is the revamped material cart, which will also be home to the small (Shapeoko 3) CNC. Gang tapping the ends of the extrusions:



Drilling the access holes:



Assembly:



Loading it up (partially completed) for the night:



Hope to finish this tomorrow and perhaps get some more stuff on the walls semi-permanently.

Beautiful early spring, 60's this weekend!

RMW
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This thing is really going to suck... snicker.



RMW
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Spent about 6 hours working on this today, mostly re-positioning some of the French cleats because spacing was not well thought out originally, then getting some more stuff off the floor and back onto the walls/cleats.

Originally I used a laser to set the cleats level, but for whatever reason (most likely operator-error) there was 2-3 MM of difference in places in the spacing between rows. Decided to take an analog approach and, what the heck, use some 80/20.







Around 3:00 I threw in the towel, lit a cigar, mixed a see-thru and put on an audio book. Here's the south wall:



West wall:



North wall:



East lie the doors. Next I break down the excess carts, evict anything that does not really need to be in the shop, and get the layout tools arranged. At that point I should be nearly as functional as I was before starting the project & I can make some decent wall cabinets & start optimizing the use of the cleats.

Oh yea, and shoveling snow. Nor'easter on the way. There must be some Daffodils that poked their heads up somewhere in the yard.

G'night all.

RMW
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Today was fun, if you consider spending a day hanging stuff on your shop walls and grilling pork to be "fun". I do.  [big grin]

Started the day full-steam ahead towards making a bunch of french cleat dingus with pegs to hang stuff when it occurred to me there was a simpler way to do it still keep it adjustable (i.e. not screwing stuff to the walls). Instead I made a jig to drill holes in the cleats @ a 2-3 degree angle and space them regularly:













Holes are 1/4", pins are stainless between 2-7" long, spacing is 25mm+ on 12.5mm centers, takes seconds to add a new hole.



On the grilling side I started with char-grilled-char-siu-sous-vide. Trimmed the snot out of a pork shoulder, consulted the Oracle for the marinade, bagged/sealed/sous vide for 3 hours & then finished on the egg. Followed this up with 10# of sausage & 2 pork tenderloins, then vacuum bagged 90% of it and tossed it in the freezer.

Like I said, fun.

RMW
 
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Offline rvieceli

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looks great Richard!!!!

did you ever get that barrel cooker tuned in?

Happy Easter.

Ron

Offline bobberner

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Hey, let me know when one of the homes next to yours goes on the market. I wanna be your neighbor.  8)
As addictive as crack but more expensive.

Oohhhhhhhhhh, Festool.........

MFT/3, TS 75, RO 150, OF 1400, CT Midi.

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Most everything is back on the walls (versus on the floor or in bins), things are starting to shape up and I may soon work IN the shop rather than work ON the shop. Not that that's bad I guess.

Yesterday saw the long stuff move out of the corner & find a home over the doors:





The upper 14mm rods are ultimately for storing AL/wood stock. Waiting for some 5/16" stainless rods to arrive for the lower holes, then each guide rail will get it's own slot.

The making of the rod holder thingies:







The chop saw also found a semi-permanent home for the first time ever:



And the day ended with a beautiful sunset:



RMW
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Offline Richard/RMW

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looks great Richard!!!!

did you ever get that barrel cooker tuned in?

Happy Easter.

Ron

@rvieceli

Hey Ron. Nope, the PBC is sitting under the deck since the last nor'easter, I'll haul it out soon and give it another try but the whole set-&-forget concept was still eluding me last time I tried it. Good excuse to smoke some ribs though.

Guess I am just hardwired to need to fiddle with things...

RMW
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Offline Cheese

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I really like the angle vise from 80/20.  [cool]

Also like the shelf supports. What angle are the rods set at?

Offline Richard/RMW

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I really like the angle vise from 80/20.  [cool]

Also like the shelf supports. What angle are the rods set at?

2 degrees.

RMW
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Offline Richard/RMW

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Okay - I spoke too soon. I did have a chance to work IN the shop versus ON the shop. Seems I forgot the dishwasher guy was coming Tuesday (the boss has been away for a few days) to install the new machine and I had to whip up the panel for it.





It was really nice not to have to move anything to to get to the work surfaces, systainers with tools, and the material I needed. CT hose hanging over the worktop on retractors was just right. Use the TS75, RO90, Domino and a trim router.

Simple domino'ed frame of maple finished with lacquer & a dado for the pre-finished eucalyptus panel.

RMW
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Offline rst

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Nice three thumbs up!

Offline Holmz

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Offline Richard/RMW

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Lucked out to find that I had one extra handle from when we did the kitchen, I made these out of Bubinga and thought I was going to spend a few hours last night making one for the DW panel.

Love my Domino!







Lucked onto this "tiger" maple at Lowes, if I had realized how nice it was I might have saved it for some other project:





The Boss should be happy.

RMW

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Offline neilc

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That's a beautiful panel.  Nice to see the shop move from space renovation to project creation!


Offline Tinker

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Richard,My BOSS says :Gorgeous
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline Richard/RMW

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Been a while since this was updated. Spring arrived with gorgeous weather & a new paddle board, then our excitement with a pair of nesting yellow crowned night herons ended sadly with the chicks blown from the nest into the garden, followed by the happy discovery of duck eggs in the garden & plans for the duckling's lap pool, plus completion of several honey-do's... it's been busy around here.

So the major epiphany is that if you ("I") have the ability to move stuff around the shop and generally fiddle with it you (I...) will do so. Like I didn't already know this, as well as I know myself. Blame it on the French Cleats.

Needed to get the CT/UDD off the floor to make room for the future Erika (thanks @rizzoa13 ...) which entailed some 80/20 and FC:









DeWalt is sitting in Erika's spot for now, I think I have enough room for the 85 with the sliding table attachment. Closing in on that purchase decision.



Final product still needs some finagling with, but again, that is the beauty of the FC.

RMW

PS - did you know ducks lay 1-2 eggs every day or so until they have 7-15 eggs and only then incubate them? In 20-some days we expect to have a kiddie-pool full of churning ducklings to hang with.



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Offline Knight Woodworks

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Richard, the shop looks great, what a difference. Will you have a shop warming party?

The Erika is a fantastic saw if you can accept the cost.

John


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Thanks John, & agreed on the Erika. I am slowing acclimating myself to the cost, once I refill the slush fund (i.e. RipDog Tools) I will take the plunge.

I have been thinking about doing a late summer rib-fest for Foggers, there seems to be a strong cadre around Philly/SNJ. Need to converse with the boss and get a date on the social calendar. September is one of the best months here.

RMW

Richard, the shop looks great, what a difference. Will you have a shop warming party?

The Erika is a fantastic saw if you can accept the cost.

John
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Offline Knight Woodworks

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That would be great, if you need a hand lemme know.

John

Offline jchau2007

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Richard,
that's an awesome small workshop. you just know how to utilize the vertical space. Those are premium when it comes to small workshop. any chance that you will put a face plate on the electrical outlets?

Offline Richard/RMW

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Thanks @jchau2007 - with no horizontal space to use in a small shop you really have to obsess over every cubic inch of vertical area. It can be fun if you are wired to think that way.

Yes the outlets get will get face plates. Because I installed the boxes for 1/2" material thickness (I thought I would end up with drywall or similar) then used the Luann instead they protrude ~ 1/4" to far. I plan to mill some bezels from 1/4" material with the CNC as soon as I can, then install the face plates.

RMW

Richard,
that's an awesome small workshop. you just know how to utilize the vertical space. Those are premium when it comes to small workshop. any chance that you will put a face plate on the electrical outlets?
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Offline Richard/RMW

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Always had more than my fair share of long, skinny stuff that has been banging around the shop for years, rods, extrusions, dowels, etc. Irritated me to have it leaning in a corner hard to sort thru to find what I needed. Enter CNC and French Cleats:











Lots of time this weekend to play (and 30-40#'s of meat to smoke), so I'll probably use the CNC to tackle the nail guns, cordless drill/drivers and the electrical outlet covers.

Looks to be a stunning weekend at the shore, hope everybody enjoys the 4th.

RMW 
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Offline rvieceli

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Looks good Richard.

Sounds good for the meat too. Have a great holiday!! Was in St Louis last weekend and stopped at Pappy's Smokehouse for lunch. Good BBQ. http://www.pappyssmokehouse.com/

they had five of the big smokers going full blast. They use these folks from Cape Girardeau Mo, about an hour from me.

https://www.olehickorypits.com/

one of our local fire departments has this baby one and really love it>

http://www.olehickorypits.com/Ultra-Que/

What's up with the ceiling? I thought you had bought the cedar to put up there.

Ron

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@rvieceli - Ron, I did plan to put the cedar T&G up by now but put it on hold pending the outcome of our neighbor's construction behind us. Long story short but the view from our rear deck is the back of a couple ratty sheds and an old chicken coop. They are rebuilding from Sandy and if they clean up the property all is good. If not then we may take the roof off the shed and extend it out with a canopy that will (1) block the view and (2) give me a covered outdoor work area. Sounds goofy I know but we have not been able to figure out how to screen their property any other way.

Enjoy the holiday, if anyone is around Brig this weekend give me a heads up.

RMW

Looks good Richard.

Sounds good for the meat too. Have a great holiday!! Was in St Louis last weekend and stopped at Pappy's Smokehouse for lunch. Good BBQ. http://www.pappyssmokehouse.com/

they had five of the big smokers going full blast. They use these folks from Cape Girardeau Mo, about an hour from me.

https://www.olehickorypits.com/

one of our local fire departments has this baby one and really love it>

http://www.olehickorypits.com/Ultra-Que/

What's up with the ceiling? I thought you had bought the cedar to put up there.

Ron
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Offline Gerald_D

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Richard,
Thanks for sharing all your ideas for french cleats- fantastic!  You have convinced me to go with french cleats in my new shop- I find myself rearranging things a lot and this system seems to be much more flexible than others, including the t-track.  I probably won't get started on mine until the fall, but I promise to share pictures- I'm guessing many of your ideas will make it into my shop design and I'm sure I'll have some of my own.

Thanks again and y'all have a great 4th of July! 

Regards,
Gerald
Gerald
I have Festools- Big and Small and a few other tools

Offline rizzoa13

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I'll be in brig on Sunday what's for lunch??

Offline Vondawg

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #162 on: November 27, 2016, 02:36 PM »
Richard first thanks for all the great documentation on your workshop and ideas, I've been following all of them. I (we) will soon do as you did and give up trees, leaves, mowing, and all that goes along with a few acres in the finger lakes area of NY. and move to the beach in NC. Have you had any problems with the moisture and tool rust? And how have you dealt with it? Going from nice dry winters and air conditioned summers (in a basement shop) I've not had to deal with that and worry a bit about our green tools and others as well.
 Thanks, Von

There are no mistakes....just new designs.

Offline Vartz04

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #163 on: November 27, 2016, 03:33 PM »
I love this thread. Someone with more stuff than me in a smaller shop. I'm keeping my eye on your progress and likely moving to some French cleats at some point this winter

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #164 on: November 27, 2016, 07:21 PM »
Hey Von,

Whereabouts in NC? Looking ahead to being taxed out of NJ we went down last year between Xmas & NY to scout around, made it from Pawley Island up to Surf City, lots of great beaches. Our problem is we are spoiled by having a complete town here on Brigantine, and everything we saw down there were mostly bedroom communities where you had to leave the island for most services. Did we miss anything, or are you heading further north?

Rust & corrosion are tough, have not found a solution but I am battling it to a draw. Mostly. Biggest problem is surface moisture from condensation when the temp changes. I don't have a lot of big steel tools anymore, on those I kept I've had some luck with Boeshield, @Sal LiVecchi recommended it and he lives in an even tougher climate.

Seldom used hand tools and planes I wrap in rust inhibiter paper when not in use, bit of a PITA but it works.  It evens out, I don't miss the leaves.

Good luck.

RMW

Richard first thanks for all the great documentation on your workshop and ideas, I've been following all of them. I (we) will soon do as you did and give up trees, leaves, mowing, and all that goes along with a few acres in the finger lakes area of NY. and move to the beach in NC. Have you had any problems with the moisture and tool rust? And how have you dealt with it? Going from nice dry winters and air conditioned summers (in a basement shop) I've not had to deal with that and worry a bit about our green tools and others as well.
 Thanks, Von
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Offline Tinker

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #165 on: November 28, 2016, 03:16 AM »
I have used WD-40 and then wax treatment early in woodworking season.  then, the last couple of times I know my season is close to ending at end of winter or early spring, I don't turn on my aircleaner while working in the shop.  Fine dust seems to settle onto everything.  I leave that dust on my tools all summer until I start back in the fall.  I used to keep all my tools very clean and was fighting rust forever.  When one summer, I left everything covered with fine dust, I had almost ZERO rust to contend with in the fall.  i have been doing that way ever since.

I know it sounds like I'm lazy>>>>>>>> well I am!
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline Vondawg

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #166 on: November 28, 2016, 06:56 PM »
RMW
Topsail Island, NC and while its not a 'complete' town its got everything within 20 mins off the island for most but not the docks for fresh fish.... thanks for the paper tip, I've been stocking up on sm. dehumidifiers [LeeValley] and the top coats, wax, and corrosion-inhibiting storage bags.
Tinker, the dust tip is interesting and sounds very logical to me.
There are no mistakes....just new designs.

Offline Tinker

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #167 on: November 28, 2016, 08:07 PM »
I have an old cast iron folding router table that  has lost parts.  I set it in a corner way back around turn of century.  It is covered ith fine dust as I have never cleaned it. I had treated with the W40 and wax every season while i was using it. Every summer, after wiping it clean and putting it on a shelf, i would need to get rid of rust spots in the fall.  when it got broken, i just set it on the concrete floor in a corner and havenot dusted it off as long as it has been there.  every once in a while, i check for rust.  As I said, i have never wiped it clean.  There is nohing like a concrete floor to wick moiture  up from the ground underneath.  There is still no rust.  Probably it i tried that with an expensive toy, It would be totally covered with rust.  I do not wipe dust off of my LN planes, but keep them on a shelf.  No rust as long as they are covered with dust.  When i had my Table saw I used to keep it clean and constantly fighting rust spots.  When i finally allowed dust to stay thru the summer, no rust.  My bandsaw i now treat the same way.
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #168 on: November 28, 2016, 08:08 PM »
@Vondawg - we were there, really liked it there better than the more southern NC and SC beach towns. Spent an hour with Dean Phillips, a really great Realtor @ Landmark and got schooled that it is NOT "Top-Sail" but rather "Topsel", slightly slurred.  [big grin]

We noted the water there was almost Caribbean blue, & then Dean pointed out how being north of Cape Fear River the waters were much clearer. Lots to do if you have a small boat.

Wilmington is a great little city and close enough for most everything you need right along 17. I'm spoiled with my Ace Hardware, TD Bank, Acme, liquor store and bakery open year round, I can go a week easy and never leave town. Even so I have to drive 20 minutes to get lumber or hit BJ's for ribs.

The newer homes all seemed to be on pilings and open to the outside, do you have one with a first floor shop area?

Good luck with the move.

RMW

RMW
Topsail Island, NC and while its not a 'complete' town its got everything within 20 mins off the island for most but not the docks for fresh fish.... thanks for the paper tip, I've been stocking up on sm. dehumidifiers [LeeValley] and the top coats, wax, and corrosion-inhibiting storage bags.
Tinker, the dust tip is interesting and sounds very logical to me.
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Offline Tinker

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #169 on: November 29, 2016, 03:58 AM »
@Vondawg - we were there, really liked it there better than the more southern NC and SC beach towns. Spent an hour with Dean Phillips, a really great Realtor @ Landmark and got schooled that it is NOT "Top-Sail" but rather "Topsel", slightly slurred.  [big grin]

We noted the water there was almost Caribbean blue, & then Dean pointed out how being north of Cape Fear River the waters were much clearer. Lots to do if you have a small boat.

Wilmington is a great little city and close enough for most everything you need right along 17. I'm spoiled with my Ace Hardware, TD Bank, Acme, liquor store and bakery open year round, I can go a week easy and never leave town. Even so I have to drive 20 minutes to get lumber or hit BJ's for ribs.

The newer homes all seemed to be on pilings and open to the outside, do you have one with a first floor shop area?

Good luck with the move.

RMW

RMW
Topsail Island, NC and while its not a 'complete' town its got everything within 20 mins off the island for most but not the docks for fresh fish.... thanks for the paper tip, I've been stocking up on sm. dehumidifiers [LeeValley] and the top coats, wax, and corrosion-inhibiting storage bags.
Tinker, the dust tip is interesting and sounds very logical to me.

@Richard/RMW I new houses are all on pilings, IMHO I would go with the flo.  That is big storm country.  Your little storms in Brigantine are just warm ups, I think. How high are those pilings?  I would think they are high enuf to keep the houses dry with average storm coming in off ocean.  A cellar under house for a work shop should probably be up on even higher piles.  Just a thought.

A few years ago, maybe 50+/-, i had occasion to build a foundation under a house in Randolf, Vt.  The house had been built on concrete piers.  The owner from Newtown, Ct., the BIL of my best friend here in Wilton, Ct wanted to put a cellar under the house.  I advised against it, as it was not going to be lived in year round.  My thought was that the "natives" know something that "aliens" from down in the flatlands of Southern Connecticut do not know.  That house was basically going to be used as a hunting cabin to be used a couple of weeks in the mid to late fall and possibly for summer vacations.  The heat would be left at very low thru the winter with nobody living there. By the time i spoke my thoughts, the house was already up on cribbing and off to the side of where the foundation was to be built.

I took my helper and cement mixer and we trekked on up to Randolf. I had advised 12" blocks.  The owner ordered 8".  The footings had already been poured and forms removed.  With forboding, i threw up a foundation with a couple of very long days of going full bore.  We actually finished up in a snow storm but we covered the whole thing with a tarp and next morning, the snow was already melting.  The riggers got there and moved the house onto the foundation the next day.  Along about spring of following yer, i spoke with my friend.  It seems he had found out those "ignorant hillbilly natives" must have known something causing them to all built their houses on concrete piers.  With no heat in the new cellar, the entire foundation had been pushed in by frost.

Richard, do take a close look and ASK around before you think about a cellar under a house within half mile (or however far you should be looking) of the ocean. Those houses are on pilings for good reason.
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #170 on: November 29, 2016, 08:58 AM »
@Tinker - Wayne we understood the reasoning behind the pilings. The current codes restrict new construction from having enclosed areas at ground level, due to storm surge. I assume this is due to being in the V (velocity) flood zone in addition to the 100 year zone. FEMA's knee-jerk reaction after Sandy was to put much of Brigantine into the V-zone, it was later removed after flood maps/base flood elevation were updated. V-zone has a huge impact on insurance rates.

There are however a number of older homes that have ground floors. My question was whether Von had one of the older homes with a ground floor shop, or if he had some other arrangement. I assume it is the former but was curious, I've been trying to sneak my shop into the house for years and thought perhaps he had the secret.  [big grin]  [not worthy]

RMW

PS - just fully re-read your "tale", and laughed/grimaced. Before we built the current house the Boss & did a greenie-building certification course, thinking we would show the peasants how to build a house properly. Learned 2 major things:

1.  Dreaming/designing/spec'ing green is a heck of a lot easier than building/paying for green; and
2.  Water, in it's various forms, creates 90% of the issues/challenges in construction.

We learned more than we ever wanted to know about vapor barriers, rain screens, proper moisture control, flashing leaks, mud, etc. ad nauseam, and ended up building a pretty conventional house. Don't get me started on geothermal HVAC or in-floor radiant heat, or heat recovery ventilators...

RMW

« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 09:10 AM by Richard/RMW »
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Offline jyarbrou

  • Posts: 27
Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #171 on: November 29, 2016, 01:35 PM »
A lot of the NC coast line flash floods with just a heavy rain. I've seen a foot+ of water in the roads on some of the islands after a good storm.
-Eric

Offline Tinker

  • Posts: 3495
Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #172 on: November 29, 2016, 06:06 PM »
@Tinker - Wayne we understood the reasoning behind the pilings. The current codes restrict new construction from having enclosed areas at ground level, due to storm surge. I assume this is due to being in the V (velocity) flood zone in addition to the 100 year zone. FEMA's knee-jerk reaction after Sandy was to put much of Brigantine into the V-zone, it was later removed after flood maps/base flood elevation were updated. V-zone has a huge impact on insurance rates.

There are however a number of older homes that have ground floors. My question was whether Von had one of the older homes with a ground floor shop, or if he had some other arrangement. I assume it is the former but was curious, I've been trying to sneak my shop into the house for years and thought perhaps he had the secret.  [big grin]  [not worthy]

RMW

PS - just fully re-read your "tale", and laughed/grimaced. Before we built the current house the Boss & did a greenie-building certification course, thinking we would show the peasants how to build a house properly. Learned 2 major things:

1.  Dreaming/designing/spec'ing green is a heck of a lot easier than building/paying for green; and
2.  Water, in it's various forms, creates 90% of the issues/challenges in construction.

We learned more than we ever wanted to know about vapor barriers, rain screens, proper moisture control, flashing leaks, mud, etc. ad nauseam, and ended up building a pretty conventional house. Don't get me started on geothermal HVAC or in-floor radiant heat, or heat recovery ventilators...

RMW

Richard, I was pretty sure you knew the why for the piers.  It is interesting about the difference you describe between new and old construction.

When I had my mason construction business, i sometimes got into argu- er,ah- debates with architects and designers about construction problems... mostly about fireplace design.  Once, I told the architect the design just would not work.  his reply was "i am more interested in the design than whether or not it will work."  The fire place did not work.  Luckily the builder was present while we were arguing and he backed me up when i called the archetct at 11:30 pm on a very rainy nite to come observe a very smokey room.  The guy would not come.  I later used the same basic design with my own change suggestions in the fireplace I built in my own house. My fire place worked.  as with the piles and peers, a little change in construction can often do wonders.
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #173 on: February 05, 2017, 12:09 PM »
Realized as I was updating this post, it has been over a month since I have been in the shop. Way to long. Yesterday was in the 40's, zero wind and sunny. And the boss and my FIL are safely stashed away in Florida for a month. Time to play.

Getting the heat more-or-less permanently installed and putting up new lights has been on the list for a while. I broke down and bought a pair of 2' by 4' 5,000K LED lights from Global Industrial to go with the radiant heat panel I got from them last winter.



Decided to make some some 75mm frames to fit them into, depth was needed to make sure none of the j-boxes hit the framing. The boxes are just pocket-screwed to the rafter ties. Temp blocking holding the panels in until I can finish off the ceiling.



The new MFT/SYS cart extension got it's first workout as a ripping/crosscut/assembly station:







And, nominated for the goof-ball of the day award, my helping hands holding the LED light up while wiring it in series...



Left the heat on @ 50 overnight to see how it would be this AM, heading out now to enjoy again.

RMW
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Offline Richard/RMW

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #174 on: February 27, 2017, 09:14 AM »
Major spring-cleaning over the weekend, this freakish February temps have been up to the 70’s with blue sky and light breezes. About time for the Daffodils to pop up so they can get clobbered by one last blizzard.
 
Going back to one of the original “guiding principles” for the shop rehab: If it is not used in the shop, it is not stored in the shop. I updated this to “used frequently” and cleared our stuff like finishes, steam bending equip and so on. The shop is basically down to benches, power and hand tools, clamps, fasteners and fixtures.



I also pulled out seldom-used tools and plan to sell them off, stand by for a few posts in the classifieds.

Upright storage of long/thin stuff is pretty much under control, no more stuff leaning again the walls in a corner.



I’m now trying to shrink down the (4) 24” cabinets by half. 2 contain fasteners and the other 2 are hand tools, drill bits, and misc. supplies. Some of the tools will get incorporated into shallow drawers on the MFT/SYS cart and I can weed out some seldom used fasteners. The real problem is leaving enough worktop for the 4 stationary tools. This has me considering a turntable in the corner.





I’m looking for any input anyone may have who has used a turntable like this, based on the mock up I think I can fit everything on a 36” turntable offset 2” from the walls. I’m planning to keep the underside open so I can roll the tablesaw underneath it.



If I go with the (38”) turntable and reduce the cabinets to 48” I end up with open space around 28” which is the future home of the to-be-acquired AC/DC TIG welder. I lost my little MIG during Sandy and never replaced it, but I am hankering to add some metalwork back into shop capabilities.

The CT/compressor area still looks like a nest of snakes but that can be cleaned up a bit, it is actually pretty functional.



I can actually get to and use the CNC now, and store panel up to 24" by 32" under it, then anything larger against the wall behind it. Should get those slabs done and cleared out this spring.



On a separate topic, I am seriously considering importing a CS 70 to replace the DeWalt saw. I was looking at the ERIKA 75 but given the cost difference I think I can get by with the CS. What I really want is the pull-saw functionality, it will sit on a cart so portability is not important to me. Anyone happy/unhappy with the CS 70?

Thanks,

RMW
« Last Edit: February 27, 2017, 09:17 AM by Richard/RMW »
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Offline rvieceli

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Re: Small shop/modular work surfaces (AKA how to cram 10# in a 5# sack...)
« Reply #175 on: February 27, 2017, 11:25 AM »
Richard looks good. On the turntable deal don't forget to leave enough room for your workpiece. I finally had to move my press into the middle of the wall from closer to the end to make room for some longer pieces.

Ron

Offline Luv2skyski

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Great thread Richard. I'm in the process of organizing my "shop" also.

Could you tell us a little more about your storage boxes / drawers?
I see that the Schaller boxes come in 3 depths. Which depth did you end up using?

You spent $500-$600 on 3 buys. I assume you bought 3-4 of their assortments?   
Is there any you would change or not buy as far as sizes? 
Did you build the drawers to fit the boxes or was that just luck?

Sincerely, Dave.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 08:49 AM by Luv2skyski »

Offline mikeyr

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  • If it is not used in the shop, it is not stored in the shop. This includes excess material, more on this in a later post.

 that is a rule to live by.


Besides, the pizza oven comes first... [big grin]

 oh yeah...as the proud owner of 2 wood burning pizza ovens, I can really agree with you on this one.  2 because one is smaller for day to day pizza's and one big brick oven.
ex-cabinet maker, now I just play with wood

Offline Richard/RMW

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Hi Dave - see below for responses. Representative bin sizes labeled:









Fully loaded fastener drawers weight a ton, would not use < 1/2" for bottoms, mine are all 3/4", & 100# slides.

RMW

Great thread Richard. I'm in the process of organizing my "shop" also.

Could you tell us a little more about your storage boxes / drawers?
I see that the Schaller boxes come in 3 depths. Which depth did you end up using? I have some of all 3 sizes, most useful for drill bits are the 1", for most fasteners are the 2". A lot depends on drawer depth, my shallow drawers are made with 75mm rips and a full 3/4" flush bottom, so ~2.25" inside height. Handtools like drivers, wrenches, etc also fit the 2" best.

You spent $500-$600 on 3 buys. I assume you bought 3-4 of their assortments?  Nope, I guessed at sizes in the beginning then filled in with later orders when I ran out of a particular size or figured out a new size would maximize space usage.
Is there any you would change or not buy as far as sizes? Hmmnn.. 2" and 3" widths are probably most versatile for fasteners, a very few of the 1" width for really small stuff, and 4" & 6" widths for some larger tools. 2"/3" by 6"/8" are handy for tools also. 
Did you build the drawers to fit the boxes or was that just luck? Dumb luck. Cabinets are 24" OAL, 3/4 material, 1/2" slides and 3/4" drawer sides so ended up ~20" ID width.

Sincerely, Dave.
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Offline Luv2skyski

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Thanks, Richard. The labeled pictures with box dimensions are really helpful. I appreciate your opinions on the different sizes too.
Sincerely, Dave.

Offline Tinker

  • Posts: 3495
Richard, I like the way your tray inserts are shallower than the actual sides of your drawers.  The biggest problem I have with those shallow drawers in the Festoy storage boxes is that it is so easy to not judge the extent the drawers fcan be loaded.  If a tool does not fit perfectly, it becomes a very annoying process to get the drawer opened. It never seems to be the same prceedure as before to get a drawer opened.  you have made the allowances that one does not run into such problems. 

Great job, as with all of your solutions.
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline Richard/RMW

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@Tinker - thanks Wayne, but again it's just dumb luck as the drawers were ripped to 75MM before I found the bins. Saint Sawdust (patron saint of wood-hackers) was looking out for me again.

Totally agree that keeping stuff well short of drawer height is always best. Those 1" high bins fit the one off-brand mechanics chest I have in the shallow drawers and again fit perfectly. They hold drill bits, taps, counter sinks etc. My wife is always touting the shop organization, I just figure it's the confluence of ADHD and hoarding...

Been a since I have seen you post, hope all is well.

RMW 

Richard, I like the way your tray inserts are shallower than the actual sides of your drawers.  The biggest problem I have with those shallow drawers in the Festoy storage boxes is that it is so easy to not judge the extent the drawers fcan be loaded.  If a tool does not fit perfectly, it becomes a very annoying process to get the drawer opened. It never seems to be the same prceedure as before to get a drawer opened.  you have made the allowances that one does not run into such problems. 

Great job, as with all of your solutions.
Tinker
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Offline Tinker

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@Richard/RMW, Yeah, I'm fine.  I just picked up a HKC w/2 batteries and charger. (I had one corner of my shop that had a tiny unused space) Haven't used it yet as grass seeding time closed in on me.  I'm not sure yet how it will handle for me. I have a bit of carple tunnel and two fingers and thumb on left hand are very numb.  you should see me at the table and trying to handle fork or spoon.  It gets to be quite an adventure.  The Boss gets all worried, but I just laugh and tell her I will learn to use my right hand wrong.  Of course, I could always move to Oz where everything is upside down anyhow. Or I'll maybe figure out how to use my elbow somehow. I had a cousin who could pack his pipe and light it using his toes. Oh well. aside from all the other aches and pains, i still have fun and still enjoy working.  Went to D.C at Easter.  The Boss and I were having our 51st and our good friends were having their 15th.  We were calling it our 5115th aniversary.  Dam, how time flies.
Tinker 
Wayne H. Tinker