Author Topic: Festool and mafell (Read 82797 times)

PA floor guy · « **on:** March 19, 2013, 07:06 PM »

Reading a different post got me thinking. What are the biggest difference between festool and mafell. I know Mafell makes a lot of different tools than festool offers. But on similar tools, which is better and why....

skids · « **Reply #1 on:** March 19, 2013, 07:09 PM »

Quote from: PA floor guy on March 19, 2013, 07:06 PM

Reading a different post got me thinking. What are the biggest difference between festool and mafell. I know Mafell makes a lot of different tools than festool offers. But on similar tools, which is better and why....

Price for one. Mafell is hideously expensive.

Davej · « **Reply #2 on:** March 19, 2013, 07:34 PM »

Quote from: skids on March 19, 2013, 07:09 PM

Quote from: PA floor guy on March 19, 2013, 07:06 PM
Reading a different post got me thinking. What are the biggest difference between festool and mafell. I know Mafell makes a lot of different tools than festool offers. But on similar tools, which is better and why....

Price for one. Mafell is hideously expensive.

But then so is festool verses makita , dewalt etc but you still buy festool. Mafell is ' maybe ' the top tier .

skids · « **Reply #3 on:** March 19, 2013, 07:56 PM »

Quote from: Davej on March 19, 2013, 07:34 PM

Quote from: skids on March 19, 2013, 07:09 PM
Quote from: PA floor guy on March 19, 2013, 07:06 PM
Reading a different post got me thinking. What are the biggest difference between festool and mafell. I know Mafell makes a lot of different tools than festool offers. But on similar tools, which is better and why....

Price for one. Mafell is hideously expensive.

But then so is festool verses makita , dewalt etc but you still buy festool. Mafell is ' maybe ' the top tier .

Anything more $$ than Festool = Law of Diminishing returns.

GhostFist · « **Reply #4 on:** March 19, 2013, 08:30 PM »

Imo mafell make the best saws on the market lots of power smooth running extremely well built fantastic machines. Festool are great but mafell really has some brilliant engineering.

greg mann · « **Reply #5 on:** March 19, 2013, 09:14 PM »

A tool that cost twice as much may only be ten percent better (subjective at best) but that ten percent may make all the difference in the world from the standpoint of commercial or artistic success. Case in point? .300 hitter versus a .250 hitter. One more hit in every 20 at bats. Anyone know what a consistent .400 hitter could ask for these days? One hit in ten better than a .300 hitter that just might go into the Hall of Fame himself.

That said, I really would like to see both Mafell and Protool here in the States. Each of us is crazy in his own way, and I am not sure how crazy I am yet.

woodie · « **Reply #6 on:** March 19, 2013, 09:15 PM »

Cool tools for sure. They don't seem to have much interest in the US market though, as they only have one distributor. Unfortunately they don't offer a trial period like they have in other markets and availability of accessories can be a bit spotty.

jonathan-m · « **Reply #7 on:** March 20, 2013, 04:30 PM »

This is a sensitive topic, so I hope I don't misstep.

Almost a year ago now I've replaced my TS55 & Carvex with the Mafell counterparts.

Festool makes excellent tools. It's is part of a huge conglomerate and has an enormous line-up with tons of accessories for them. Add to that the excellent service and I can completely understand why someone chooses Festool over anything else. I think they offer a complete package that can't be beat by any other manufacturer at this time.

However I also believe that tool for tool Mafell is better engineered. They pay more attention to details and machining touching surfaces to eliminate any tolerances and play. They also seem to be more robust and resistant to wear and tear in my experience.

skids · « **Reply #8 on:** March 20, 2013, 07:58 PM »

Quote from: greg mann on March 19, 2013, 09:14 PM

A tool that cost twice as much may only be ten percent better (subjective at best) but that ten percent may make all the difference in the world from the standpoint of commercial or artistic success. Case in point? .300 hitter versus a .250 hitter. One more hit in every 20 at bats. Anyone know what a consistent .400 hitter could ask for these days? One hit in ten better than a .300 hitter that just might go into the Hall of Fame himself.

Law of diminishing returns defined.

tdfiver · « **Reply #9 on:** March 22, 2013, 04:20 AM »

Only mafell I own is the KSP40 saw.

This is one brilliant little saw and I would not be without it. The build quality is as good if not better than Festool, it is without a doubt more robust and can take site work no problem.

Only problem is finding blades for it as it takes 120mm, so blades are expensive.

Dan1210 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 22, 2013, 08:23 AM »

generally my new ts55r doesnt feel as robust as my older ts55, i cant quite put my finger on it... time will tell, should have given the maffell plunge saw a raz!

Bob Gerritsen · « **Reply #11 on:** March 22, 2013, 10:31 AM »

I think I have to agree with Jonathan, really going in to the details and doing a proper A/B comparison will most likely show Mafell is on average just a little bit better per machine. Maybe that is because there are a smaller company and they don't try to fit as much as possible into the overall system as Festool does.

Ever since I got the Mafell KS300 I fell in love with that machine. It is hard to explain until you've used it but that machine is an A+ in engineering. It is hard to overrate that machine, all those possibilities in one sys 4, that is brilliant engineering.To be honest, I'm expecting I will probably replace my TS55 with it's Mafell counterpart, instead of getting the TS55R from all I've read and my experience with the small KS300.

In the end, if you stick with Festool you won't miss Mafell for a second. Festool's system works most of the time and they simply make excellent tools. I do think though every Festool user will be pleasantly surprised when using a Mafell. Maybe not enough to take the jump as it is not only the machines qualities that play part in deciding, but still.

Btw, I don't know how pricing is in the US but over here Mafell and Festool are sort of in the same price range. At least the plunge saws and routers are, Mafell's jigsaw really is something special so it fits that it is a bit more expensive than Festool's.

I know this is the Festool owners group but still I'm a bit surprised the love for Mafell isn't a bit bigger. For me, between those two brands I can find just about all the woodworking hand tools I need. My ideal line up would probably be 65% Festool and 25% Mafell and the odd 10% for other brands.

Jalvis · « **Reply #12 on:** March 22, 2013, 11:22 AM »

Bob Gerritsen's response is spot on. Festool is a great company but Mafell takes there fit and finnish a bit farther. I agree its hard to explain but you will understand after using a Mafell product......its well thought out and the details are perfect in function, feel, and looks.

In the USA Mafell is not close in price and has one Dealer: www.Timberwolftools.com
For the USA that means dealer support is not near as localized but that doesnt stop me from buying Mafell. Its like the first time you use a Track Saw or a Miter Saw.....you work differently because the options to solutions change. This is true with many Mafell products such as the KSS300, Duo-Dowel System, MT55 and the Erika pull-push saw(Festool has a version but only Mafell's is available in the USA).

Personally only one function can be enough to select one tool over the other. For example the Mafell MT55 has the best blade change function...you simply set the saw down, Press a button, pull a lever, and the entire side swings open while locking the blade. This was a feature that didnt mean anything to me when I bought the MT55 but after use its one of my favorite characteristics and is enough if a re-purchase ever occurred. Simple things like the F-style rails have a second slot closer to the cutting edge for narrow stock and the joining rail function being fast and dummy proof.

Its important you dont miss understand where I'm coming from......brand loyalty means nothing to me. I'm not painting my shop Red or Green! Its about what tool makes your job easier and faster(time=money). My tools make me Money and have to Perform. Price is only one part of the equation and since I have a long career ahead its easier to gain over the long run.

Alan m · « **Reply #13 on:** March 22, 2013, 11:45 AM »

i really like that side opening feature on the mt55. everytime i have to change the ts55 blade i complain about it not having that feature. if i had to replace my ts55 i would buy the mt55

i like the duo doweler but the domino stilll wins overall.

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #14 on:** March 22, 2013, 11:58 AM »

Quote from: Jalvis on March 22, 2013, 11:22 AM

Bob Gerritsen's response is spot on. Festool is a great company but Mafell takes there fit and finnish a bit farther. I agree its hard to explain but you will understand after using a Mafell product......its well thought out and the details are perfect in function, feel, and looks.

In the USA Mafell is not close in price and has one Dealer: www.Timberwolftools.com
For the USA that means dealer support is not near as localized but that doesnt stop me from buying Mafell. Its like the first time you use a Track Saw or a Miter Saw.....you work differently because the options to solutions change. This is true with many Mafell products such as the KSS300, Duo-Dowel System, MT55 and the Erika pull-push saw(Festool has a version but only Mafell's is available in the USA).

Personally only one function can be enough to select one tool over the other. For example the Mafell MT55 has the best blade change function...you simply set the saw down, Press a button, pull a lever, and the entire side swings open while locking the blade. This was a feature that didnt mean anything to me when I bought the MT55 but after use its one of my favorite characteristics and is enough if a re-purchase ever occurred. Simple things like the F-style rails have a second slot closer to the cutting edge for narrow stock and the joining rail function being fast and dummy proof.

Its important you dont miss understand where I'm coming from......brand loyalty means nothing to me. I'm not painting my shop Red or Green! Its about what tool makes your job easier and faster(time=money). My tools make me Money and have to Perform. Price is only one part of the equation and since I have a long career ahead its easier to gain over the long run.

Can you elaborate on this or post a picture showing that feature?

kent B · « **Reply #15 on:** March 22, 2013, 12:38 PM »

I looked at both the Festool and Mafell MT-55cc .

Comparing prices the Mafell with extra rails and shipping is approx $300 more , but the Mafell is a much better made saw.

If I were a bit younger, and had some sons to pass the saws to , I would sure buy the Mafell.

The timber framers I know use the Mafell's , do not know any timber framers using the Festools.

Svar · « **Reply #16 on:** March 22, 2013, 12:54 PM »

Mafell guide rails are definitely superior as mentioned above. Rail connector is self-aligning (same goes to Bosch and EZ rail) acting on the same principle as Betterley StraightLine Connector. In addition, the rail has two T-slots on the bottom one close to the cutting edge that allows clamping of narrow stock.
Michael, here are some pictures:
http://www.woodworking.de/cgi-bin/holzbearbeitungsmaschinen/webbbs_config.pl/md/read/id/63546

There are lots of contraptions people put together to handle narrow stock with Festool rails, but I’m yet to see an elegant solution to that.
I think this is a weak point of the TS system, which Festool could fix perhaps at the cost of back compatibility. Hey, even EZ rail can clamp narrow stock.

Jalvis · « **Reply #17 on:** March 22, 2013, 01:22 PM »

Thanks for posting the photo. Two clamping slots on the rails is great but my all time favorite is the self housing, fast setting, perfect alignment connector for the rails. Oh.....and the slot holder for the guide strip is a major plus. I hate how my Festool guide strips start coming off.

Jalvis · « **Reply #18 on:** March 22, 2013, 01:24 PM »

Quote from: Alan m on March 22, 2013, 11:45 AM

i like the duo doweler but the domino stilll wins overall.

Well....wins for some applications. You can't drill shelf pins with the Domino.

Alan m · « **Reply #19 on:** March 22, 2013, 02:01 PM »

Quote from: Jalvis on March 22, 2013, 01:24 PM

Quote from: Alan m on March 22, 2013, 11:45 AM
i like the duo doweler but the domino stilll wins overall.

Well....wins for some applications. You can't drill shelf pins with the Domino.

over all the domino wins but the duo doweler can do the shelf pins.
i used the duo doweler in colage. it was good but i found it a pian to keep aligned properly. a few of the holes were slightly mis aligned. not sure why
they both have a place in the arsenal of tools
i like how you can take off one bit and have only one dowel or put different sized bits on so that the piece can only go together one way

Bob Gerritsen · « **Reply #20 on:** March 23, 2013, 06:53 AM »

Quote from: kent B on March 22, 2013, 12:38 PM

I looked at both the Festool and Mafell MT-55cc .

Comparing prices the Mafell with extra rails and shipping is approx $300 more , but the Mafell is a much better made saw.

If I were a bit younger, and had some sons to pass the saws to , I would sure buy the Mafell.

The timber framers I know use the Mafell's , do not know any timber framers using the Festools.

Well I think that is because Festool doesn't really make saws for timber framing, Mafell does. Protool would be Festools timber framing/construction brand so to speak.

I didn't know Mafell is so much more expensive in the US. That's too bad.

It seems that Mafell, at least for now simply isn't that interested in finding a bigger market.

GhostFist · « **Reply #21 on:** March 23, 2013, 08:18 AM »

Festool was a rarer item only a few years back and protool isn't available at all in na. Perhaps being a smaller company still, they dont have the resources for a north American push yet or they simply feel the premium premium market isn't as profitable here yet for power tools. Festool is showing up more and more on job sites and are really pushing the marketing as of late. With their success I think we'll see more of of the premium brands here in a few years time.

Bob Gerritsen · « **Reply #22 on:** March 24, 2013, 06:02 AM »

I think Mafell still is a family business, for some reason I can imagine they're fine with the size they are. Mind you, I don't think Mafell was that much smaller when I started almost 20 years ago were as Festool, then Festo, clearly was. Even here in Europe you still have to search for a Mafell dealer were Festool has dealers in every town.

Whatever you think of them, they are an interesting brand. Mainly focused on timber framing/construction but then the couple tools they have that can be used in a precision wood shop are very precise indeed. They keep Festool on their toes and vice versa and that is great for all of us.

Seriously, we're a lucky bunch with all the precision tools that exist nowadays. And not even at the cost of hand tools, you mix your Festools and Mafells (Lamellos and Leicas etc) with your Lie-Nielsen, Veritas and what not and you have no more excuses, it sets the bar for a very high quality output. And I would even argue at a very reasonable cost.

Bob Marino · « **Reply #23 on:** March 24, 2013, 08:55 AM »

Interesting discussion. Years ago, there was a collaboration of sorts between the 2 companies. The Festool OF 2000 router was made (at least in part) by Mafell and Mafell's small router was Festool's OF 1000 router.

Bob

GhostFist · « **Reply #24 on:** March 24, 2013, 09:56 AM »

On the subject of Festool and Mafell routers (I know next to nothing of Mafell routers). Swiss company Arunda has had dovetail routing templates for timber framing made specifically for the Mafell router, but are currently in Developement of a template for the OF 2200. Does this suit anyones fancy?

Check it out.... (Note conflicting background music and funny costumes)

Jalvis · « **Reply #25 on:** March 24, 2013, 01:42 PM »

Thats a great promo video. Although not exactly costumes......those are signs of great distinction in the Trades.

Once again Bob is making some valid points about competition and the age of artisan tools were all currently in. The only negative(and Positive) of competition is patents. Can you image what tools would be made if Festool and Mafell collaborated together? Each company has some great features that if combined would make the ultimate in tools.

jeep jake · « **Reply #26 on:** March 24, 2013, 01:46 PM »

depending on the price of the template I would be interested.

Bob Marino · « **Reply #27 on:** March 24, 2013, 02:09 PM »

Quote from: Jalvis on March 24, 2013, 01:42 PM

Can you image what tools would be made if Festool and Mafell collaborated together? Each company has some great features that if combined would make the ultimate in tools.

On a similar but lighter note; IIRC and I may be off here,
But about 10 years ago I heard that one of the executives in Festool got married to one of the executives from Fein!
Black/green and orange!

Bob

GhostFist · « **Reply #28 on:** March 25, 2013, 06:57 PM »

I didn't even know how much they cost, just that there are templates in development for the 2200

SRSemenza · « **Reply #29 on:** March 25, 2013, 08:46 PM »

For more on the timber framing jigs see Here

Seth