Author Topic: CMS Discontinued  (Read 2648 times)

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Offline Michel

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CMS Discontinued
« on: July 20, 2019, 05:29 PM »
(Dont know if its already been posted here)
CMS system have been removed from Festools website (eu) and I got confirmed from a dealer, that due to new EU restrictions, CMS will no longer be available. For now, there is no info on new CMS replacement.

Ive ordered an Erika tablesaw, at it seems it is delayed, cause Mafell has to make some new modifications to the saw, before they ship it. The reason was these new restrictions.

Does anyone know what these new EU restrictions is all about ?
Danish carpenter and cabinetmaker, just me and my padawan :)

http://www.lyrk.dk

Offline six-point socket II

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Re: CMS Discontinued
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2019, 05:44 PM »

(...)

Does anyone know what these new EU restrictions is all about ?

We're trying to figure that out as well. -> http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/festool-cms-discontinued/

--

@Phil Beckley

Phil, can you by chance say something about the regulations/ point us in the right direction of where to look? EC directive 2006/42/EC (Machine directive)?

Would be highly appreciated! :)

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline TinyShop

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Re: CMS Discontinued
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2019, 06:37 PM »
Here's the link to the 2006/42/EC document:

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32006L0042#document1

Several specific mentions of woodworking equipment. That said, this is a c. 2006 document - not sure what's so recent about what it contains.
ETS 150/5 EQ (DE) [po], TS 75 EQ (DE) [po], OF 1400 EQ-F (DE) [n], CXS (DE) [n], CMS-GE [DE] [po], CMS TS 75 (DE) [n], LA-CS 50/CMS (DE) [po], VB-CMS (DE) [n], MFT/3 (CZ) [n], DF 700 EQ w/Seneca Small Mortise Kit (DE) [po], FEIN Multimaster 350 QSL (DE) [n], Bosch 1274DVS w/dust collection, sanding frame,  stand & fence (CH) [n], BOSCH 1590EVS w/dust collection (CH) [n], CS Unitec CS 1445 HEPA extractor <re-branded Starmix ISP 1435 H> (DE) [n], CT SYS (DE) [po], Milwaukee 0302-20 (US) [n], Two (2) Porter Cable 862 (TW) [n], Porter Cable 447 (US) [n], Zyliss Vise (CH) [n], Hitachi C 8FB (JP) [h]

[po] pre-owned   [n] new   [h] heirloom   (XX) country of origin

Offline six-point socket II

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Re: CMS Discontinued
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2019, 07:13 PM »
Thanks @TinyShop I have that document readily available, and several others. ;)

But it might be interesting for others!

I just couldn‘t find what I was looking for, thats why I asked. :)

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline ScotF

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Re: CMS Discontinued
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2019, 10:54 PM »
I am not an expert, but I think one thing is making sure tools do not start automatically when there is a loss of power.

Offline Michel

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Re: CMS Discontinued
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2019, 03:00 AM »
I am not an expert, but I think one thing is making sure tools do not start automatically when there is a loss of power.

I believe that has been implemented many years ago. Ive never had a powertool to start up automatically after a powerloss.
Danish carpenter and cabinetmaker, just me and my padawan :)

http://www.lyrk.dk

Offline Phil Beckley

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Re: CMS Discontinued
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2019, 08:32 AM »

(...)

Does anyone know what these new EU restrictions is all about ?

We're trying to figure that out as well. -> http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/festool-cms-discontinued/

--

@Phil Beckley

Phil, can you by chance say something about the regulations/ point us in the right direction of where to look? EC directive 2006/42/EC (Machine directive)?

Would be highly appreciated! :)

Kind regards,
Oliver

Hey Oliver
 Apology for the delay but FESTOOL UK has been moving into a new HQ and we started with a product launch so a lot to do.

Ok, this relates to changes with EU requirements (with or without BREXIT as FESTOOL are based in DE so are European so the request applies) from manufacturers to make changes to some products and one of the areas is the switch for safety. Put this into google IEC 62841-1:2014, make some coffee and read away :-)……

   However this also means that some changes are not possible from manufacturers on the machine due to cost and time. Maybe some products have reached the end of their lifecycle and so are removed from the portfolio - the CMS is one of them. Unfortunate but with the advent of Shaper and lower cost CNC. As a manufacturer we have a responsibility to abide by the rules upto the date when they come in force as after a certain date the product cannot be sold from the manufacturer but previous stock can be sold by dealers. I am a huge fan of the CMS-OF and am sorry to see it go as so much can be achieved with it. Maybe its progress to other working platforms but for now there is no choice.
   The recent changes to the C.S, SYM70 and KAPEX saws was also part of the request so the guard on the 50/70 is bigger and also works better for angle cuts, better stability, easy reach storage etc so that any H+S items such as push sticks can be reached easily and in theory used more often.
   I am not aware of any other products that will go from the portfolio but some will have very small changes so we comply
Hope this helps and any q's get back to me
rg
Phil
Technical trainer
FESTOOL U.K

Festool U.K Employee | Festool UK Website


Offline Peter Halle

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Re: CMS Discontinued
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2019, 09:17 AM »
@Phil Beckley , THANKS for the explanation!

Peter

Offline Bohdan

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Re: CMS Discontinued
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2019, 09:33 AM »
The way that I interpreted the new regs is that when a portable power hand tool is fitted to a stand it is then considered a fixed machine and must have a power fail switch. Because the festool routers, saws etc. can be connected to bypass the CMS switch the power fail switch would have to be on the power tool.

By not having a stand to fit these tools Festool can conform to the new regs without having to alter all their products.

So I suspect that the days of a Festool CMS system are now gone but if some other manufacturer made something compatible then that would be OK.

Offline ScotF

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Re: CMS Discontinued
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2019, 09:50 AM »
The way that I interpreted the new regs is that when a portable power hand tool is fitted to a stand it is then considered a fixed machine and must have a power fail switch. Because the festool routers, saws etc. can be connected to bypass the CMS switch the power fail switch would have to be on the power tool.

By not having a stand to fit these tools Festool can conform to the new regs without having to alter all their products.

So I suspect that the days of a Festool CMS system are now gone but if some other manufacturer made something compatible then that would be OK.

That was my understanding too - as a big part of the new standard.

Offline six-point socket II

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Re: CMS Discontinued
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2019, 04:06 PM »
Hi Phil, ( @Phil Beckley )

Thank you very much for taking the time to explain!  :)

Making some coffee now. ;)

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline six-point socket II

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Re: CMS Discontinued
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2019, 04:08 PM »
Just for the record, here's the other thread I meant to link to yesterday.

-> http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/(european-union)-no-more-under-table-cms-kit/msg583317/#msg583317

Kind regards,
Oliver
« Last Edit: July 21, 2019, 04:19 PM by six-point socket II »
Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline Phil Beckley

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Re: CMS Discontinued
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2019, 04:16 PM »
The way that I interpreted the new regs is that when a portable power hand tool is fitted to a stand it is then considered a fixed machine and must have a power fail switch. Because the festool routers, saws etc. can be connected to bypass the CMS switch the power fail switch would have to be on the power tool.

By not having a stand to fit these tools Festool can conform to the new regs without having to alter all their products.

So I suspect that the days of a Festool CMS system are now gone but if some other manufacturer made something compatible then that would be OK.

….that's a good overview :-)
rg
Phil
Festool U.K Employee | Festool UK Website


Offline Phil Beckley

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Re: CMS Discontinued
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2019, 04:17 PM »
@Phil Beckley , THANKS for the explanation!

Peter

….youre welcome.
rg
Phil
Festool U.K Employee | Festool UK Website


Offline Francis_Beland

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Re: CMS Discontinued
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2019, 10:33 PM »
So does it means that now all router tables will need to be discontinued? Not just Festool but any company?

Offline Bohdan

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Re: CMS Discontinued
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2019, 10:34 PM »
Only if they also make the router that fits the table.

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: CMS Discontinued
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2019, 12:25 AM »
So does it means that now all router tables will need to be discontinued? Not just Festool but any company?

You can have a router table setup if say a maker of the table makes it universal, thus they aren't selling you a router/system, they sell you something you then do what you please with.   For a long time, you have had the situation where if you sold routers and tables you didn't make it work with other companies stuff, since you would have to certify to work with each router, which cost a lot of money and you make no money of that router.  The company that makes a similar system to the CMS has a setup with the router and a video online even touches on this where they comment on the cost to certify so it is designed to only work with their router(s),  CMS was the same way. 

Now this might kill off setups like the CMS, but what it very well means is companies like festool will just take the stuff they make and repurpose it into a stand alone thing.  So it would make sense for Festool to take a CS/50/70 chassis, remove the saw bits, replace with OF2200 parts and call it done.  You can't pull a router out of it and use it hand held, but you can something the uses all the same system bits, so development would be fairly cheap.

The new rule makes sense. Honestly there are battery tools that could use this.  I have a M18 multitool, if the battery dies, you plug a fresh one in it, it takes off running since the power switch is still on, it's really very dangerous.  I'm made the mistake a couple times and luckily have not hurt myself, I've done it enough times now that I remember to not do it, but someone can get really hurt that first mistake.

Offline Jiggy Joiner

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Re: CMS Discontinued
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2019, 03:57 AM »
Any Fein or Makita cordless tools that I’ve bought in the last few years, have all had the safety built in that stops a tool running if switched on during a battery change. Grinders, multi tools, sanders, anything with an on/off switch really. So it’s not by any means a new thing.


Offline DeformedTree

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Re: CMS Discontinued
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2019, 09:33 AM »
Any Fein or Makita cordless tools that I’ve bought in the last few years, have all had the safety built in that stops a tool running if switched on during a battery change. Grinders, multi tools, sanders, anything with an on/off switch really. So it’s not by any means a new thing.

That's good.  Maybe big red didn't get the memo.

     Go to 6:35  I have the same tool, but I haven't had it very long. My reaction was very similar to his.

Offline Cheese

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Re: CMS Discontinued
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2019, 10:26 AM »
So I'm curious how the stability of the CMS router table compares to the MFT?

Offline Bert Vanderveen

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Re: CMS Discontinued
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2019, 11:55 AM »
So I'm curious how the stability of the CMS router table compares to the MFT?

The CMS is more stable than the MFT/3. The pivot points for the legs are lower, the leg assemblies sturdier. The smaller footprint also helps (the legs cantilever outwards, more than the MFT's, that need to fold into the top — whereas the CMS legs fold onto the table part).
Cheers, Bert Vanderveen

TS55 · TS55R · OF1010 · DF500 Mk2 · MFT/3 + TSB1-MW 1000 + VL + CMS TS55 + CMS PS300 + LA-CS 70/CMS · CTL Midi · RTS400 EQ · 2 x CXS Li 1,5 · T15+3 Li 4,2 · TI15 Impact Li 4,2 · Centrotec Sets 2008 + 2015 · PSB300 · LR32-SYS · RO150 · Kapex KS120 · 2 x MFK700 · RO90 · OFK700 · BS75 · OFK500 · OF2200 · CMS-GE … | Mirka 1230L P&C | Hammer A3 31 Silent Power · Hammer N4400 · Hammer HS950 (soon!) 

Offline TinyShop

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Re: CMS Discontinued
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2019, 12:34 PM »
So I'm curious how the stability of the CMS router table compares to the MFT?

The CMS is more stable than the MFT/3. The pivot points for the legs are lower, the leg assemblies sturdier. The smaller footprint also helps (the legs cantilever outwards, more than the MFT's, that need to fold into the top — whereas the CMS legs fold onto the table part).

I'll echo Bert's assessment. I have the TS 75 module as well and regularly use it to rip all kinds of material (the kind of motion that you may concerned about). When I first began acquiring the various components of my current CMS setup (CMS-GE, CMS TS 75, sliding table, outfeed and off-cut extension tables) I was concerned that I'd need to rig up some kind of sandbags or the like (draped over the cross members on the legs) to stabilize the lightweight (compared to a cast iron TS!) nature of the CMS. In practice, however, I've never seen the need. The CMS stays rock solid regardless of what I push through it. Maybe someday I'll encounter a situation where I'll need to add some aditional weight but I can't foresee having to do so. I cut all my sheet goods down to size using a track saw so the days of manhandling full sheets of ply through a TS are gone (which means that any need for a heavy TS are also gone).   
ETS 150/5 EQ (DE) [po], TS 75 EQ (DE) [po], OF 1400 EQ-F (DE) [n], CXS (DE) [n], CMS-GE [DE] [po], CMS TS 75 (DE) [n], LA-CS 50/CMS (DE) [po], VB-CMS (DE) [n], MFT/3 (CZ) [n], DF 700 EQ w/Seneca Small Mortise Kit (DE) [po], FEIN Multimaster 350 QSL (DE) [n], Bosch 1274DVS w/dust collection, sanding frame,  stand & fence (CH) [n], BOSCH 1590EVS w/dust collection (CH) [n], CS Unitec CS 1445 HEPA extractor <re-branded Starmix ISP 1435 H> (DE) [n], CT SYS (DE) [po], Milwaukee 0302-20 (US) [n], Two (2) Porter Cable 862 (TW) [n], Porter Cable 447 (US) [n], Zyliss Vise (CH) [n], Hitachi C 8FB (JP) [h]

[po] pre-owned   [n] new   [h] heirloom   (XX) country of origin

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: CMS Discontinued
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2019, 10:31 PM »
What matters is material-blade-fence stay together.  If they move all as one on a pile of jello, all will still be good.  In some ways having flex in the legs can be a benefit as it means the system won't flex say the blade when you get some side load on the material passing thru, it will flex the legs instead.

Offline Cheese

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Re: CMS Discontinued
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2019, 11:55 PM »
Well that’s the reason I asked the question...having used a friends MFT, that abomination is like jello. That’s the reason I haven’t purchased one and also why I have no interest in owning one.
Better to be someone else’s curse than mine.     [tongue]

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: CMS Discontinued
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2019, 12:11 AM »
I have 2 MFTs,  sure they wiggle a little, but I haven't seen how in usage it would matter. I also don't use them as a stand in for a Anvil.  I appreciate them having nice solid tops, but overall not too bad of weight.

My comments were simply that people will comment on things flexing, but in a lot of situations it's not an issue and could be a benefit or the less flex option could have much bigger downsides.  It's all about the particular locations of a flex.

I suspect MFTs fall into a circular loop, the person who things they flex to much does stuff on them that puts a lot of load on them that makes the flexing seam like a lot more than it would be to others. This extra forcing of it, over time loosens things up more, which causes more flexing and the cycle just snow balls, and eventually you have a table that is completely jello.  Since it happened over time, the person never notices the degrading, and just thinks it was like that from the start and or doesn't think they abused it.

Offline Svar

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Re: CMS Discontinued
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2019, 12:17 AM »
I have 2 MFTs,  sure they wiggle a little, but I haven't seen how in usage it would matter.
It matters if you use hand tools.

Offline Bert Vanderveen

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Re: CMS Discontinued
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2019, 07:05 AM »
As has been said often, Festool should have included the bracings to the MFT/3 package, not sell them as an accessory… Even better would have been an improved design with foldaway bracing.

My MFT/3 with bracing is very solid (but I have to admit that a permanently attached CMS/VL adds a lot to that, not to mention the TSB1/MW1000 on the other end).
Cheers, Bert Vanderveen

TS55 · TS55R · OF1010 · DF500 Mk2 · MFT/3 + TSB1-MW 1000 + VL + CMS TS55 + CMS PS300 + LA-CS 70/CMS · CTL Midi · RTS400 EQ · 2 x CXS Li 1,5 · T15+3 Li 4,2 · TI15 Impact Li 4,2 · Centrotec Sets 2008 + 2015 · PSB300 · LR32-SYS · RO150 · Kapex KS120 · 2 x MFK700 · RO90 · OFK700 · BS75 · OFK500 · OF2200 · CMS-GE … | Mirka 1230L P&C | Hammer A3 31 Silent Power · Hammer N4400 · Hammer HS950 (soon!)