Author Topic: Suggestions for shop-improvements  (Read 3375 times)

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Offline MikkelF

  • Posts: 5
Suggestions for shop-improvements
« on: May 15, 2019, 12:31 PM »
Hi all,

I would like your input to what tools would make most sense for me to purchase to improve my shop.

I prefer to build with Oak tree between 2 - 3.5 cm thickness This is the type of projects I want to do :
Rectangular TV furniture
297859-0
- Sofa table (To match the TV furniture)
- Freestanding wardrobes (Oak sides + top and MDF or Ply doors and shelves)
- Sunlounges. Mostly build of hardwood but also some nordic softwood. 

I prefer to do bevel cuts with domino joints.

I have a TS55 but I'm having some trouble doing accurate 45 degree bevel cuts. I get inconsistant results...not by a lot, but enough that I do want to see if there is any alternative...myabe it's because Im a lefty?  [embarassed]
My current tabel saw is a Evolution Rage-5S. Thats not well suited for the task either. Tried to build a sled for it, but the t-tracks is not the same width from start to end, so thats a no-go as well. Also, it's a real PITA to cross cut a long board on it even with two people.

My workshop is 180 sq.ft., so space is somewhat limited. My current considerations:

- Festool CS70 with outrigger table and extensions. I read the reviews in the forum, so not sure on that one, but still like it somehow. Also is there a new with the SawStop tech. coming soon? 
- Hammer K3 or C3 with outrigger table, but that will really be a tight fit in my shop, but doable.
- Jet table saw (Same problems as above, but cheaper and likely less quality?)

What do you guys suggest if you could stitch together a setup for me within a $10k budget.

BTW: Looking at TSO for a solution to breaking down 8x4 sheets to more manageable size but with high accuracy, so I don't need to run it through the table saw. Would you go with the full parallel guide system or just start with the guide rail square?

Let me hear your suggestions or if you need me to collaporate something  [smile]

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Offline Sanderxpander

  • Posts: 379
Re: Suggestions for shop-improvements
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2019, 02:31 PM »
If you're considering tablesaws like those the Mafell Erika 85 ec belongs in that list too I think.

Offline nvalinski

  • Posts: 96
Re: Suggestions for shop-improvements
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2019, 02:52 PM »
If you are having trouble with 45 degree cuts, is it better to invest in a router with a large chamfer bit? Cut it close with the track saw, then take a last pass with the router since the bit will be more accurately at a 45 degree angle. Handheld or at a router table both work fine, although handheld feels a bit sketchy with huge bits sometimes.

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 2647
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: Suggestions for shop-improvements
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2019, 05:01 PM »
Every type of cut you describe is a snap for a good quality table saw with an excellent fence but is very difficult for a track saw.

I avoid large router bits unless they are used on a very solid router table and certainly never handheld.

A SawStop table saw on a mobile base would satisfy your requirements and provide a great safety device. It does require adequate dust collection.

Birdhunter

Offline MikkelF

  • Posts: 5
Re: Suggestions for shop-improvements
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2019, 05:30 PM »
Thanks for the replies - Really appreciate it  [smile]

The SawStop was actually my first consideration, but they won't ship to Europe, so not sure how to get hold of one - even 2nd hand I can't track one down with 220V. I don't mind investing in the right dust extraction system. I want a clean shop and lungs  ;D

I also like the idea with a router table and a large chamfer bit. Didn't think of that before. If placed on a table how do you securely handle routing the ends of a heavy board. Missing a slider on most router tables... or maybe there is a certain technique to it?

I will take a closer look at the Mafell Erika 85 - Didn't really heard much about it before. Whats the pro/cons top of mind for that saw?

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1800
Re: Suggestions for shop-improvements
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2019, 06:06 PM »
I also like the idea with a router table and a large chamfer bit.
Try this instead:
https://www.lumberjocks.com/topics/25919
Or this:
https://www.lumberjocks.com/projects/46721
« Last Edit: May 15, 2019, 06:44 PM by Svar »

Offline Rob Z

  • Posts: 789
Re: Suggestions for shop-improvements
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2019, 11:31 PM »

Hello

The Erika is a very well-engineered and designed tool.  The only “negative “ that I can think of is the extremely high price when compared to other very good options such as a Hammer sliding table saw.  I’m guessing you’re in Europe and if so you might be able to see a model in person. Here in the US, there is only one dealer and for me (I did consider buying one) it would have been a long drive to see one in person. There is a Mafell users group on the web and at least one member here at the FOG has an Erika.

I watched every video I could find on Youtube and looked at every diagram of the tool and its accessories and read every review I could find.  I was OK with the price but just couldn’t spend that kind of dough on something I couldn’t see firsthand before placing an order.

The Erika would fit in well with your 180 sq ft workshop space versus buying a large cabinet saw or a slider. 


Thanks for the replies - Really appreciate it  [smile]



I will take a closer look at the Mafell Erika 85 - Didn't really heard much about it before. Whats the pro/cons top of mind for that saw?

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3884
Re: Suggestions for shop-improvements
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2019, 08:23 AM »
BTW, it is possible to get crisp miters on thicker boards with the tracksaw, but it takes some jiggering to get there.  The first issue is that you have to ensure square cuts.  If you're not going the MFT route then have a really good, longer square to set the rail, like Woodpeckers 18 or 26" precision framing square.  You will also have to make sure the rail is supported at the front and especially the back end with scrap of the same thickness, because the tilt of the saw will bend an unsupported rail slightly as the sawplate moves into space.

Then it's about correctly setting the bevel on the tracksaw to ensure true 45.  Here you can't rely on the stops -- you have to either do a series of test cuts (with corresponding adjustments), or, what I do, use a magnetic digital bevel gauge mounted to the saw blade to dial in true 45 prior to the cut, working off of a flat reference surface:
https://www.rockler.com/wixey-digital-angle-gauge-with-backlight

It really does make a difference for mitered furniture if the cut is 44.6 degrees or true 45,

The problem you might also encounter is that the corded TS55 is a bit underpowered when doing bevel cuts in thicker hardwood.  The TSC55 is actually better for this, and of course, the TS75.

Have you budgeted in a way of dressing wood, like a planer?
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Offline nvalinski

  • Posts: 96
Re: Suggestions for shop-improvements
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2019, 08:40 AM »
I also like the idea with a router table and a large chamfer bit. Didn't think of that before. If placed on a table how do you securely handle routing the ends of a heavy board. Missing a slider on most router tables... or maybe there is a certain technique to it?

That's ultimately where going handheld makes sense. The goal is to always bring the lighter object to the heavier object, so if the wood is lighter than the router, bring it to the table; if the router is lighter than the wood, bring the router to the wood. A big bit handheld is a bit scary, but as long as you do it in a lot of depth passes or take 90% of the material off with the track saw, it will be less dangerous. A sliding table does seem to be a rarity on router tables, but would be perfect for the task. You start getting into high end shapers at that point though.

Offline mikkelfilskov

  • Posts: 4
Re: Suggestions for shop-improvements
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2019, 09:20 AM »
I also like the idea with a router table and a large chamfer bit.
Try this instead:
https://www.lumberjocks.com/topics/25919
Or this:
https://www.lumberjocks.com/projects/46721

Some people are amazing [tongue]
This is an idea I will try out

Offline mikkelfilskov

  • Posts: 4
Re: Suggestions for shop-improvements
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2019, 09:28 AM »
BTW, it is possible to get crisp miters on thicker boards with the tracksaw, but it takes some jiggering to get there.  The first issue is that you have to ensure square cuts.  If you're not going the MFT route then have a really good, longer square to set the rail, like Woodpeckers 18 or 26" precision framing square.  You will also have to make sure the rail is supported at the front and especially the back end with scrap of the same thickness, because the tilt of the saw will bend an unsupported rail slightly as the sawplate moves into space.

Then it's about correctly setting the bevel on the tracksaw to ensure true 45.  Here you can't rely on the stops -- you have to either do a series of test cuts (with corresponding adjustments), or, what I do, use a magnetic digital bevel gauge mounted to the saw blade to dial in true 45 prior to the cut, working off of a flat reference surface:
https://www.rockler.com/wixey-digital-angle-gauge-with-backlight

It really does make a difference for mitered furniture if the cut is 44.6 degrees or true 45,

The problem you might also encounter is that the corded TS55 is a bit underpowered when doing bevel cuts in thicker hardwood.  The TSC55 is actually better for this, and of course, the TS75.

Have you budgeted in a way of dressing wood, like a planer?

Yeah, it definitely matters if its dead on 45, which been my issue with my track saw. I have the TSC55 and it seems to cope fine with the hardwood power-wise.

I am going the MFT route, so that is something I want to try out. I also have the digital angel Wixey, but how do you mount that on the track saw to get an accurate measurement?

I will likely purchase either the Hammer A3-31 or 41. Got a decent price on that from Felder, but do consider the C3 model to get all in one... mixed reviews here as well - mainly for the saw part where the fence part is not the best.

Offline mikkelfilskov

  • Posts: 4
Re: Suggestions for shop-improvements
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2019, 09:30 AM »
I also like the idea with a router table and a large chamfer bit. Didn't think of that before. If placed on a table how do you securely handle routing the ends of a heavy board. Missing a slider on most router tables... or maybe there is a certain technique to it?

That's ultimately where going handheld makes sense. The goal is to always bring the lighter object to the heavier object, so if the wood is lighter than the router, bring it to the table; if the router is lighter than the wood, bring the router to the wood. A big bit handheld is a bit scary, but as long as you do it in a lot of depth passes or take 90% of the material off with the track saw, it will be less dangerous. A sliding table does seem to be a rarity on router tables, but would be perfect for the task. You start getting into high end shapers at that point though.

I'm new to routers only done very limited work - no scary experiences so far. What should I be focussed on if I go this route? Is it sudden kickbacks?

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 5788
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Suggestions for shop-improvements
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2019, 11:44 AM »
Im not one to tell someone what tools they need to do a partiualr job. In this case however I would keep in mind that this wont be the only job you'll do. there will be a lot more.

So think versatility when buying tool. So with that being said, Look at the Mafele Erica 85, the Festool CMS with the TS 75/ router table w a 1400 router, and the scroll saw module.

For a small space they will give you what you need. Also a Kapex and either make or buy a MFT w accessories.

But the most important thing for you is versatility

Offline Bert Vanderveen

  • Posts: 540
Re: Suggestions for shop-improvements
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2019, 03:10 PM »
A pretty good method to get good angled cuts with a track saw is to 'sneak up to it' — Do a cut 1/16 offset from what you want and then do a final cut spot on, taking care to have a measured feed rate (the saw should kind of find its own way at its own speed — experience will tell). It helps if you are able to go to full depth before reaching the material.

I also use this method on my Kapex 120 for 'tall' cuts & it really makes a difference.
Cheers, Bert Vanderveen

TS55 · TS55R · OF1010 · DF500 Mk2 · MFT/3 + TSB1-MW 1000 + VL + CMS TS55 + CMS PS300 + LA-CS 70/CMS · CTL Midi · RTS400 EQ · 2 x CXS Li 1,5 · T15+3 Li 4,2 · TI15 Impact Li 4,2 · Centrotec Sets 2008 + 2015 · PSB300 · LR32-SYS · RO150 · Kapex KS120 · 2 x MFK700 · RO90 · OFK700 · BS75 · OFK500 · OF2200 · CMS-GE … | Mirka 1230L P&C | Hammer A3 31 Silent Power · Hammer N4400 · Hammer HS950 (soon!) 

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1190
Re: Suggestions for shop-improvements
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2019, 03:29 PM »
Part of the reason that sneaking up works is that there is less wood to remove and hence less blade deflection, and more precision. Look at any table saw zero clearance inserts that have been used for a while (and only for 90* cuts), and you'll see a wider gap at the front, due to blade deflection. There tends to no edge burns with this technique.

Offline nvalinski

  • Posts: 96
Re: Suggestions for shop-improvements
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2019, 04:05 PM »
I also like the idea with a router table and a large chamfer bit. Didn't think of that before. If placed on a table how do you securely handle routing the ends of a heavy board. Missing a slider on most router tables... or maybe there is a certain technique to it?

That's ultimately where going handheld makes sense. The goal is to always bring the lighter object to the heavier object, so if the wood is lighter than the router, bring it to the table; if the router is lighter than the wood, bring the router to the wood. A big bit handheld is a bit scary, but as long as you do it in a lot of depth passes or take 90% of the material off with the track saw, it will be less dangerous. A sliding table does seem to be a rarity on router tables, but would be perfect for the task. You start getting into high end shapers at that point though.

I'm new to routers only done very limited work - no scary experiences so far. What should I be focussed on if I go this route? Is it sudden kickbacks?

Saws kick back. Routers kick in 360 degrees, not just back. Presumably, if you are cutting in the correct direction, you will limit the number of directions that it can kick, but large bits can be grabby if you take too deep of a pass. Helps having a hand/arm somewhat planted on the table to create a bit of an anchoring point while you push the router as well, vs. just holding the router from above (if that makes any sense).

Just take light passes and you'll be okay, but be prepared for if things don't go well to keep your distance, as routers will bounce around the floor if they hit in the right direction due to a lack of a guard on the bottom.

Offline MikkelF

  • Posts: 5
Re: Suggestions for shop-improvements
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2019, 05:13 PM »
I also like the idea with a router table and a large chamfer bit. Didn't think of that before. If placed on a table how do you securely handle routing the ends of a heavy board. Missing a slider on most router tables... or maybe there is a certain technique to it?

That's ultimately where going handheld makes sense. The goal is to always bring the lighter object to the heavier object, so if the wood is lighter than the router, bring it to the table; if the router is lighter than the wood, bring the router to the wood. A big bit handheld is a bit scary, but as long as you do it in a lot of depth passes or take 90% of the material off with the track saw, it will be less dangerous. A sliding table does seem to be a rarity on router tables, but would be perfect for the task. You start getting into high end shapers at that point though.

I'm new to routers only done very limited work - no scary experiences so far. What should I be focussed on if I go this route? Is it sudden kickbacks?

Saws kick back. Routers kick in 360 degrees, not just back. Presumably, if you are cutting in the correct direction, you will limit the number of directions that it can kick, but large bits can be grabby if you take too deep of a pass. Helps having a hand/arm somewhat planted on the table to create a bit of an anchoring point while you push the router as well, vs. just holding the router from above (if that makes any sense).

Just take light passes and you'll be okay, but be prepared for if things don't go well to keep your distance, as routers will bounce around the floor if they hit in the right direction due to a lack of a guard on the bottom.

So if a make a bevel cut with the sav 1-2 mm off then I could shave it clean to a 45 cut with a chamfer bit on the router? Maybe using the MFT and a rail for the router...

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 2647
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: Suggestions for shop-improvements
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2019, 05:34 PM »
I looked at the Erika 85 video. I didn’t like the exposed blade. I know the SawStop isn’t an option, but its blade guard is so much safer than what the video showed. I’d look for a saw with a better blade guard. Fingers are difficult to reattach.
Birdhunter

Offline MikkelF

  • Posts: 5
Re: Suggestions for shop-improvements
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2019, 04:49 PM »
Thank you for all the replies. A lot of great ideas come to the table for me (and likely others) to try out. I will get back with my own test results here later in case your curious. If others tries some of these please report back if you have time  :)

One question for the CS70 owners out there. Could I use the pull feature of the blade in a 45 degree bevel cut to archive an accurate cut or is there some wobble when you move it?