Author Topic: 32 mm system help  (Read 36199 times)

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Offline Alan m

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32 mm system help
« on: May 29, 2011, 07:31 PM »
 i know this probably isnt in the right place but feel free to move it if ye want.

i have just got the lr32 system . i havent used it yet. i know there are tutorials on using it like setting it up etc.
i am looking for a good reference for building with the 32 mm system. be it a book or a website.
i remember seeing a book a while back but cant find any reference to it now. this isnt really a festool question as the jig itself is well docunented , but there doent seem to be a good depth of liriture on building a whole kitchen or big wardrobe with the system.

can any body help me out. when i am going half way there i feel i should embrace the whole 32 mm system
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Offline Kevin Stricker

  • Posts: 483
Re: 32 mm system help
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2011, 08:29 PM »
DO a search on this site.  Mirko did a good writeup a few years ago.  Also several references to other reading material in that post.  Google True32.  Unfortunately there is not a single 32mm system, each one has nuances so you have to choose one and stick with it.

Online Brice Burrell

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Re: 32 mm system help
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2011, 09:14 PM »
Truth is this is a more complicated question than if might first appear.  The 32mm system is designed to have a system approach to efficiently making a wide array cabinets sizes with a euro style hardware in a production setting.  Of course you know that.  The important part of the system is in bold above.  If you are asking about the very basics of this system that may indicate you don't really need figure the system beyond the very basics.  For someone that doesn't have a decent understanding of cabinet construction with euro hardware the 32mm system may confusing, this is especially true when talking about drawers.    

You could be better served not to focus understanding the all details at first but rather try to grasp the basic concepts.  that said here is a good place to start.
Dave Lers' 32mm Cabinetmaking.
        



DO a search on this site.  Mirko did a good writeup a few years ago.  Also several references to other reading material in that post.  Google True32.  Unfortunately there is not a single 32mm system, each one has nuances so you have to choose one and stick with it.

I don't know that I agree with you here.  I think it's best to take the parts of each system you like and adapt them to your needs.  

    
« Last Edit: May 29, 2011, 09:37 PM by Brice Burrell »

Offline Steve Rowe

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Re: 32 mm system help
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2011, 11:50 PM »
Like the others said, a number of choices are available.  This is the one I prefer;  KISS II SYSTEM

Steve

Offline Kevin Stricker

  • Posts: 483
Re: 32 mm system help
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2011, 02:13 AM »
 

I don't know that I agree with you here.  I think it's best to take the parts of each system you like and adapt them to your needs.  
  

I guess my point was that one of the factors that changes between the different 32mm systems is top and bottom offsets.  Obviously on a given project you want to keep this the same.  While it may seem easier to just pick and choose between them i think you potentially cause yourself more grief when 1 year down the road you decide to tackle another project.  That's why I think it best to pick one and become proficient at it.

Offline mastercabman

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Re: 32 mm system help
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2011, 08:34 AM »
Like the others said, a number of choices are available.  This is the one I prefer;  KISS II SYSTEM

Steve
I also like that system!
I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Offline Kevin D.

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Re: 32 mm system help
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2011, 09:01 PM »
The late Danny Proulx wrote this book on the subject:

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=48525&cat=1,46096,46108

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Offline fshanno

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Re: 32 mm system help
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2011, 12:54 PM »
I use Blum's Process32. 

Here's a link to the document

I like the drawer sizes and they give the dimensions in inches and mm.  The inches really work too.

This system doesn't use a balanced panel.  Has anyone used the LR32 with this Blum system? 



The one thing we learn from history is that we never learn from history.

Offline RL

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Re: 32 mm system help
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2011, 01:36 PM »
I believe the system was developed after the Second World War to satisfy the need for fast, easy, low-cost furniture assembly for millions of homes destroyed in the war.

The 32mm system was scaleable as everything was a multiple of 32mm, therefore panel production machinery could be easily adapted to produce all different sizes of cabinets. The lack of a face frame made construction easier and quicker too.

I am sure there is an interesting book on it somewhere.

Online Brice Burrell

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Re: 32 mm system help
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2011, 02:01 PM »
I use Blum's Process32. 

Here's a link to the document

I like the drawer sizes and they give the dimensions in inches and mm.  The inches really work too.

This system doesn't use a balanced panel.  Has anyone used the LR32 with this Blum system? 



The one problem the LR32 has is that it is limited to two (the newest version has three) setting for the end stops.  The end stops set the distance from the edge of the panel to the first hole.  The LR32 stops allow for 9, 16 and 32mm offset (the 9mm offset only available on the newest stops).  The Blum process 32, Pearls and Kiss II systems don't use an offset the LR32 has, so you would need to figure out a way to make your own custom offset.  It's possible, you can make your own stop for the guide rail.  I use the parallel guides instead of the stops to use any offset I want.

I'd love to see someone come up with an adjustable stop for the LR32 (hey Ron, you listening).   

Offline polarsea1

  • Posts: 294
Re: 32 mm system help
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2011, 01:53 AM »
I'm just an amateur woodworker and I've built 3 sets of cabinets using the 32mm system. From my perspecitve it's more difficult than a conventional face frame cabinet, however I like the end result better. Just just figuring out what hinge to use, what offsets, overlays, reveals, etc. is overwhelming to begin with. All the information is available but it's aimed at someone who already knows the nomenclature.

I'm just about to finish and install a pantry unit 3 bays wide with a single door on the top and 5 drawers under on each. I used Blum Metabox drawers, which are really nifty if not high end, but another mystery to solve, especially if you want something other than the standard fill.

Offline fidelfs

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Re: 32 mm system help
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2011, 01:17 PM »
I use Blum's Process32. 

Here's a link to the document

I like the drawer sizes and they give the dimensions in inches and mm.  The inches really work too.

This system doesn't use a balanced panel.  Has anyone used the LR32 with this Blum system? 




The one problem the LR32 has is that it is limited to two (the newest version has three) setting for the end stops.  The end stops set the distance from the edge of the panel to the first hole.  The LR32 stops allow for 9, 16 and 32mm offset (the 9mm offset only available on the newest stops).  The Blum process 32, Pearls and Kiss II systems don't use an offset the LR32 has, so you would need to figure out a way to make your own custom offset.  It's possible, you can make your own stop for the guide rail.  I use the parallel guides instead of the stops to use any offset I want.

I'd love to see someone come up with an adjustable stop for the LR32 (hey Ron, you listening).   

Brice,

I just bought the LR32 and I didn't have time to play with it yet.  I am a hobbiest so forgive me if my question don't make much sense.

What would happen if we use the LR32 holes, Won't I have enough room for reveals to top of a base cabinet, or .... I don't know why to choose a different systems.
I know you guys are talking about offset and reveals, but can we do it anyways with Festool?  Should I return the LR32 and search for a simple one?

I am very  ???.  All the eurocabinets that I made before were based in arbitrary measurements, I used the jigit from Rockler for the holes and 3 inches for the euro hinges (which is very close to all the systems recommend).  I understand the holes can be used for the drawers as well, but I don't see why a reveal will cause a problem if we use LR32.  If I need a reveal, I would make it to the face of the drawer not to the drawer itself.

Am I not getting it?  What am I missing?

Regards,

Fidel
 
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Online Brice Burrell

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Re: 32 mm system help
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2011, 02:40 PM »
Fidel, let me give you a brief overview of what the Blum, Grass and other adaptations of the 32mm system are intended for.  They are designed to have one system to efficiently make a wide array cabinets sizes based on standard or uniform sized components and a specific hardware.  All panel sizes are a specific offset plus a multiple of 32, all drawers heights are the specific offset plus a multiple of 32 and so on.  These offsets are used to maximize space and efficiency of construction with a particular brand/line of hardware in a production setting.   


Understanding these systems is where a lot of beginner cabinet makers get tripped up.  The novice or beginner doesn't necessarily need to use these systems since they aren't doing production work.  The whole idea behind these systems is to avoid "one off" sized pieces.  The beauty of not being in a production environment is you can make all your cabinets/parts to exactly fit your own design.  If you design your cabinets to best fit your needs and you may not maximize space and ease of construction by production standards.  However, you can gain more freedom of design if you want it.  So, if you're coming up with your own design why not incorporate the 16 and 32mm offsets of the LR32.  In other words, don't get hung up on these other systems because they may not be best for your needs.  Also, once you understand the basics of the euro hardware and the 32mm system it's not hard to design your projects to fit the LR32.                 

Offline crpaulk

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Re: 32 mm system help
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2011, 12:40 PM »
I think the 32mm system can be used as designed or as a spring board for your own system. Whatever you go with, think through it for all applications so your setup will be second nature. I set up my 32mm system a long time ago without the benefit of knowing how the system was intended. I acquired a Blum mini press along with the seven spindle line bore attachment. Using the machine and fixed spacing between 5mm holes:32mm, I decided I wanted all of my sides regardless of height or depth to have all the holes the same offset from top, bottom, and edge. This allowed me to keep the stops on the machine in one location for line boring. In addition, my sides are non handed: no rights or lefts. The only thing I had to do was make my sizing a multiple of 32mm. In other words, a 34.5" base side is 876mm a 7' tall cabinet is 2133mm, etc.. The very slight difference will go unnoticed. Using my cabinet assembly style, the sides on all cabinets are dominate, so the top and bottom space the sides rather than support them. I am not saying this is the best system, but it works for me. Plus, if I ever go back to a job, I can add doors and drawers without even having to measure. The 32mmm system is flexible and can be adapted. On the other hand, it's not a bad idea to understand a system that is already proven.

Ron Paulk
www.paulkhomes.com
« Last Edit: June 12, 2011, 04:17 PM by crpaulk »

Offline Kevin D.

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Re: 32 mm system help
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2011, 02:12 PM »
This is very helpful information gentlemen.  I had thought that using the system outside of some rigid setup was frowned upon.  I've been using based on fitting it to my way of working, which so far has not been for more than a couple of projects, but at least I don't feel that I'm doing something necessarily wrong.  Thanks for sharing!
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Online Brice Burrell

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Re: 32 mm system help
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2011, 05:20 PM »
I think the 32mm system can be used as designed or as a spring board for your own system. Whatever you go with, think through it for all applications so your setup will be second nature. I set up my 32mm system a long time ago without the benefit of knowing how the system was intended. I acquired a Blum mini press along with the seven spindle line bore attachment. Using the machine and fixed spacing between 5mm holes:32mm, I decided I wanted all of my sides regardless of height or depth to have all the holes the same offset from top, bottom, and edge. This allowed me to keep the stops on the machine in one location for line boring. In addition, my sides are non handed: no rights or lefts. The only thing I had to do was make my sizing a multiple of 32mm. In other words, a 34.5" base side is 876mm a 7' tall cabinet is 2133mm, etc.. The very slight difference will go unnoticed. Using my cabinet assembly style, the sides on all cabinets are dominate, so the top and bottom space the sides rather than support them. I am not saying this is the best system, but it works for me. Plus, if I ever go back to a job, I can add doors and drawers without even having to measure. The 32mmm system is flexible and can be adapted. On the other hand, it's not a bad idea to understand a system that is already proven.

Ron Paulk
www.paulkhomes.com

The two sentences in bold above contradict each other.  For example 864mm is the closest multiple of 32mm to a standard cabinet height.  I'm pointing this out since the using the LR32 is the base of the context in this thread.  With non-multiplies of 32 means using the LR32 a little differently that it's intended.  It's not insurmountable by any means but it means know how to adapt the use and being aware of the possible pitfalls. 

Online Brice Burrell

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Re: 32 mm system help
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2011, 05:22 PM »
This is very helpful information gentlemen.  I had thought that using the system outside of some rigid setup was frowned upon.  I've been using based on fitting it to my way of working, which so far has not been for more than a couple of projects, but at least I don't feel that I'm doing something necessarily wrong.  Thanks for sharing!

Kevin, as long as you are getting the results you want you aren't doing anything wrong. [thumbs up]

Offline crpaulk

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Re: 32 mm system help
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2011, 01:45 AM »
I think the 32mm system can be used as designed or as a spring board for your own system. Whatever you go with, think through it for all applications so your setup will be second nature. I set up my 32mm system a long time ago without the benefit of knowing how the system was intended. I acquired a Blum mini press along with the seven spindle line bore attachment. Using the machine and fixed spacing between 5mm holes:32mm, I decided I wanted all of my sides regardless of height or depth to have all the holes the same offset from top, bottom, and edge. This allowed me to keep the stops on the machine in one location for line boring. In addition, my sides are non handed: no rights or lefts. The only thing I had to do was make my sizing a multiple of 32mm. In other words, a 34.5" base side is 876mm a 7' tall cabinet is 2133mm, etc.. The very slight difference will go unnoticed. Using my cabinet assembly style, the sides on all cabinets are dominate, so the top and bottom space the sides rather than support them. I am not saying this is the best system, but it works for me. Plus, if I ever go back to a job, I can add doors and drawers without even having to measure. The 32mmm system is flexible and can be adapted. On the other hand, it's not a bad idea to understand a system that is already proven.

Ron Paulk
www.paulkhomes.com

The two sentences in bold above contradict each other.  For example 864mm is the closest multiple of 32mm to a standard cabinet height.  I'm pointing this out since the using the LR32 is the base of the context in this thread.  With non-multiplies of 32 means using the LR32 a little differently that it's intended.  It's not insurmountable by any means but it means know how to adapt the use and being aware of the possible pitfalls. 

Brice,
864mm is the number I use for standard bases. It is not a contradiction just bad memory. It has been a bit since I have built cabinets. When I typed it, I considered confirming my math, but was wrapped up in the concept. My point is that the Blum 32mm system requires lefts and rights. My system does not as the holes are the same distance from the top edge and bottom edge, so they can be flipped for either side. Again, not saying it is best, but it works. In addition, I use a portable 110 Blum machine with stops fixed in place so I don't have to make adjustments. The only thing I have to do is cut my cabinet sides: uppers, lowers, talls a multiple of 32mm. Sorry about confusion, I promise to do better:)

Ron Paulk
www.paulkhomes.com


Offline Norseman

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  • The Norseman
Re: 32 mm system help
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2011, 04:56 PM »
I just ordered a LR32 set from UK, and try to read and learn about the system. Thanks to all contributers here in the forum for a lot of useful information.

IKEA kitchen cabinets are very popular here in scandinavia, and I am considering using IKEA hardware when I´m making my own cabinets. Had a look at a IKEA cabinet in my kitchen, and noticed that the holes on these cabinets are drilled 27mm from the front. Is this a special IKEA feature?  ???

Norse

Offline Festoolfootstool

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Re: 32 mm system help
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2011, 05:13 PM »
Hi the 32mm refers to the vertical. there are various backsets for hinges
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Offline mastercabman

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Re: 32 mm system help
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2011, 05:44 PM »
Had a look at a IKEA cabinet in my kitchen, and noticed that the holes on these cabinets are drilled 27mm from the front. Is this a special IKEA feature?  ???

Norse
Most are drilled at 37mm from the edge.
I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Offline Norseman

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Re: 32 mm system help
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2011, 06:11 PM »
Had a look at a IKEA cabinet in my kitchen, and noticed that the holes on these cabinets are drilled 27mm from the front. Is this a special IKEA feature?  ???

Norse
Most are drilled at 37mm from the edge.

Yes, that was what I also thought after reading all this brilliant information on this forum, but after checking my IKEA cabinets I´m a bit confused. But of course, I can just buy a set of IKEA hinges and drawer sets and try on a scrap board  ;)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 03:23 PM by Norseman »

Offline john stevens

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Re: 32 mm system help
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2011, 09:56 PM »
Had a look at a IKEA cabinet in my kitchen, and noticed that the holes on these cabinets are drilled 27mm from the front. Is this a special IKEA feature?  ???

I think so.  I have IKEA kitchen cabs, and although the hinges are made by Blum, they have base plates so they can mount in the holes that are drilled 27mm from the edge.

Regards,

John
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Offline ccarrolladams

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Re: 32 mm system help
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2011, 10:37 PM »
There are many applications of the LR-32 System. A whole lot of books are available on this topic.

Where nearly everyone agrees is that holes for adjustable shelf pins are drilled on 32mm centers (or centres) mostly because way back when, using available gears, that was as close as drill bits could be located on line boring machines. So, by logical extension, cabinet heights were in multiples of 32mm. Originally and for years after, LR-32 was an accepted standard to make manufacturing cabinets more efficient.

If all the hobby or custom cabinet maker is using are adjustable shelf holes the set-back from the open front edge and in from the back can be any thing you want. There is much to be said for having the front holes fairly close to the edge, so if the first object placed on the shelf is heavy, the shelf will not tip forward. By the same token the rear holes should be close enough to the back that when a load is at the rear of the shelf (a typical situation) the front of the shelf will not tilt upward. In cases such as book shelves with shelves not more than 12" (300mm) the popular 37mm set-back works well.

Things get tricky with deeper cabinets, such as in kitchens. To better support the middle of the shelf the tendency is to increase the set-back, to reduce the span between shelf pins.

It has been noted that IKEA uses a 27mm front offset. That works with the hinges and drawer slides used by IKEA.

The important thing is to read and understand the instructions for the brand of hardware you are using. I have been designing and building LR-32 cabinets for 60 years. Probably the majority have used a 37mm front setback. Still, I have to be careful, when working with unfamiliar hardware, to use the setback specified by the manufacturer.

Placement of the rear holes is a function also of the design of the slides. Almost always the spacing is a multiple of 32mm, but not always. Clearly it is convenient to have all the rear holes the same set-in from the back. Just do your best to avoid spacing the holes so wide the shelves sag or having the rear hole set-in excessively so shelves tip.

The Festool LR-32 guide rails are marvelous. Festool provides linear stops to establish standard vertical position.

Personally I use the top of base cabinets and the bottom of uppers as the vertical reference since those ends are not scribed. Often the first holes are 80mm from the reference. I usually skip that hole because my clients find it pointless to have a shelf so close to the top or bottom.

Offline FestoolMike

  • Posts: 31
Re: 32 mm system help
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2011, 09:23 PM »
Truth is this is a more complicated question than if might first appear.  The 32mm system is designed to have a system approach to efficiently making a wide array cabinets sizes with a euro style hardware in a production setting.  Of course you know that.  The important part of the system is in bold above.  If you are asking about the very basics of this system that may indicate you don't really need figure the system beyond the very basics.  For someone that doesn't have a decent understanding of cabinet construction with euro hardware the 32mm system may confusing, this is especially true when talking about drawers.    

You could be better served not to focus understanding the all details at first but rather try to grasp the basic concepts.  that said here is a good place to start.
Dave Lers' 32mm Cabinetmaking.
        
    

Brice (or anyone for that matter),

I have reviewed the information on Dave's site and I was wondering if you might be able to help me understand something.  I am trying out this method for the first time so be gentle.

Anyway, I am building a smaller version of the cabs that Guido detailed in the "Chaos" videos.  As such, I am using common partitions for the cabinets and half overlay hinges.  I am guessing that I would like to see a 3 mm reveal or gap around the "inner" door panels and the drawers.  I don't understand how I need to reduce the dimensions by to achieve the look you see in the Chaos videos.  The clear opening of the upper cabinet section is 1171.5 x 427 mm.

I know that Dave explains it, I am just not seeing it.  

Thanks,

Mike

BTW - I dont intend to hijack this thread.  I think it is on topic.  If not, I will make another thread.

Offline Gone

  • Posts: 925
Re: 32 mm system help
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2011, 07:00 AM »
What thickness of material are you using? If I understand your question right you would take your opening measurement + material thickness of one gable - 3mm for door /drawer width, this would center the door when using half overlay hinges. Door width would be increased on the gable ends if you didn't want an excessive reveal.

John

Offline FestoolMike

  • Posts: 31
Re: 32 mm system help
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2011, 12:10 PM »
I am using 3/4" or 19 mm sheet goods for the units.

Offline ororaf

  • Posts: 8
Re: 32 mm system help
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2011, 09:09 AM »
Hello, I skimmed through all of the replies that you received on the subject of 32mm cabinets.  You have a very nice collection of url's and PDF documents.  I have been looking at the other parts of the FOG and else where and found the following two links.  http://festoolownersgroup.com/member-projects/euro-cabinets-101-2-a-beginner's-guide/ and Brice Burrell's use of the parallel guide and 32mm system http://www.burrellcustomcarpentry.com/subpage98.html

Offline jobsworth

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Re: 32 mm system help
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2011, 10:30 AM »
I like Danny Proulx book its a great general overview of the frameless/32mm system.

Here is a link I found for the LR32 system.

I dont have one yet but I booked marked it just in case  I do get one.


http://benchmark.20m.com/tools/Festool/32mm/festool_32mmholes.html

Offline DuncanK

  • Posts: 15
Re: 32 mm system help
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2012, 03:06 PM »
Hello,

I have a question regarding the side panel on a cabinet. When I'm reading that a panel height is 768mm (24x32mm) does this number represent the finished inside dimensions or does it include the cabinet base and top?

Well figured it out. Cut all my side panels to 800mm allowing for 16mm on the top and 16mm for the bottom and set up Parallel Guide as a jig with LR32 as seen on youtube
Worked perfect.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2012, 12:21 PM by DuncanK »