Author Topic: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions  (Read 37227 times)

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Offline wch

  • Posts: 7
Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« on: December 16, 2018, 04:51 PM »
I recently got my Parf Guide Mark II system, and I have some issues and questions.

First off, it looks like one of the Parf sticks has hole spacing that is ever-so-slightly greater than the other. The error is such that over the 960mm from hole 0 to hole 10, one stick has holes that are around 0.10-0.15mm farther apart than the other one. Has anyone else encountered this before?

My grid is 15 wide by 7 high. When using the Parf sticks to make the "starter" set of 11x7 holes, it worked out OK. Next, I extended the grid to the right by adding 4 holes to the top row and 4 holes to the bottom row. Then I tried to connect the far-right top and bottom holes by pinning one of the Parf sticks to the top-right hole and bottom-right hole. Unfortunately, the 3mm holes I drilled in the table were slightly too far apart, and the pins wouldn't seat all the way. I think this is because the 3-4-5 triangle that was used to create the grid was slightly off, resulting in a grid that wasn't quite square.

I'm concerned that with the slight error of the holes, when I try to cut a right angle, the angle could be off by an amount that will cause problems when I try to do precise work. Is that a reasonable concern? I watched Peter Parfitt's video where he found that cuts on the workbench he made had an error of about 0.03 degrees per cut, which is very good.

Incidentally, the fact that I'm encountering fit problems when the error is so small is a testament to the overall precision of the Parf Guide system.

I have a few other questions that hopefully someone here can help answer. These first two relate to how close to perpendicular the holes will be.

  • How accurate can I expect the hole spacing to be on the underside of the panel?
  • For taller dogs like Super Dogs, how accurate can I expect them to be further away from the table?
  • The panel I'm using is MDO, based on the recommendation of someone from this forum. Unfortunately, it's slightly bowed so that if one end is pressed all the way down, the other end will stick up probably half an inch. Is unreasonable to expect an MDO panel to be much flatter than this?


Here are some pictures that show the misalignment of the holes.

With the fixing pin connecting both Parf sticks at hole 0, the longer drill guide seats easily all the way into hole 1.

289040-0

With the fixing pin still at 0, the drill guide fits tightly in hole 5. In this picture, it's tight enough that I'm able to lift both Parf sticks off the table with the friction.

289042-1

With the fixing pin still at 0, the drill guide won't go through both Parf sticks at hole 10.

289044-2


Using calipers going through both Parf sticks at hole 1, I measured a width to be 5.98mm.

289046-3

If I lift the calipers slightly so that it's engaging the hole in only one of the Parf sticks, the width is 6.00mm.

289048-4


At hole 10, going through both Parf sticks, the width is 5.86mm.

289050-5

At hole 10, lifting the calipers slightly so that it engages the hole in only one Parf stick, the width is 5.99mm.

289052-6

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Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2018, 04:26 AM »
This is something that Axminster will sort out and the OP is now aware that that is the best route to take if there is any suspicion of a faulty part.

Peter

Offline tallgrass

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2018, 12:48 PM »
do you have gauge pins to measure the holes? Just curious.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 07:58 PM by tallgrass »

Offline wch

  • Posts: 7
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2018, 04:36 PM »
I contact Axminster about the issue and they must have agreed that the ones pictured above are defective, because they promptly shipped out some replacement Parf sticks.

tallgrass, I don't have any gauge pins, but I believe that, based on my measurements, the holes themselves are within 0.02mm of 6.00mm -- it's just that they're not spaced exactly the same on both Parf sticks, so that that when the two sticks are on top of each other and registered at hole 0, the further you get from hole 0, the more out of alignment the holes get.

Offline tallgrass

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2018, 08:06 PM »
I am sure you are correct. I was just curious. measuring holes accurately with Veneers can be fiddly. I always suggest when people get calipers or veneers, they should get a reference block, small surface plate and a set of pins.

These kind of jigs can have horrendously difficult tolerances to measure accurately. Especially when dealing with something like this. I am always impressed with these various solutions and how "accurate" they are, especially when dealing with the implications of accumulative error. Sounds like they handled it well.

Offline box185

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2018, 05:04 PM »
Side by side, the metric scales are different between the original Parf stick and the Mark II Parf stick - not sure yet about the hole spacing. Other than a relative comparison, I also do not know which one is more accurate. Does any of this matter?

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2018, 12:57 AM »
Side by side, the metric scales are different between the original Parf stick and the Mark II Parf stick - not sure yet about the hole spacing. Other than a relative comparison, I also do not know which one is more accurate. Does any of this matter?

The metric scales are not relevant to the function f the tool and were put there as a bonus. If you go into any store and take rules and tape rules and compare them you will find variation between manufacturers. That is why one is encouraged to use just one for the duration of a project.

I have covered all of this in my "Measuring and Marking video from a while back:



The Original PGS and the PGS Mark 2 are expected to produce the same degree of accurate layouts of 20 mm holes. The Mark 2 will last longer as there are no moving parts to wear out the Parf Sticks.

Peter

Offline Euclid

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2018, 04:02 AM »
The scale on the 'stick' seems like something of a distraction in this matter.

What is important (for the resulting "squareness" or "perpendicularity" of the resulting hole pattern), however, is that the spacing between the holes is consistent - and that the two sticks used are identical. The former is a matter of pre-production planning; the latter would seem to be virtually guaranteed (barring some highly bizarre circumstances in production). If either of those conditions were not met, I'm sure some difficulties would be encountered in laying out the hole pattern on a worktop, long before one got as far as cutting any wood.

If you want the resulting hole pattern to conform accurately to the 32mm (or any other) system, then the actual distance between the holes on the sticks becomes important too.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 04:05 AM by Euclid »

Offline box185

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2018, 05:57 AM »
. . . and that the two sticks used are identical.

. . . the latter would seem to be virtually guaranteed (barring some highly bizarre circumstances in production).

If I understand it correctly, this seems to be the problem encountered by the OP. If there were some highly bizarre circumstance in production, I would think more than one set of sticks would be affected.

Is it possible that the two sticks were made in different production runs? I doubt that the two sticks I received were produced consecutively. Was production outsourced to meet demand?

I certainly don’t expect them to be perfect, but they should be consistent. Are there any other reports of this problem? Any comments from Peter?

Offline Euclid

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2018, 06:16 AM »
Ah, I see what you mean box185; (I was, at first, imagining the OP was comparing the measurement scales but clearly that's not so).
Thus, my comments stand in a general sense - but are not solving this particular situation.
Sorry!
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 06:20 AM by Euclid »

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2018, 08:49 AM »
The two Parf Sticks shown with their scales compared are from different products and were made on different machines The material and processes used to create the improved Mark 2 Parf Sticks are quite different as well.

Peter

Offline box185

  • Posts: 80
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2018, 10:25 AM »
. . . but the meter itself has not changed. Because I am now in the process of checking the hole size and spacing on the MK II sticks I received, I started by taking a quick look at the scales. They are different, and that causes me to question the hole pattern. What I have seen so far is that one of the two sticks seems alright, but the second one appears to have oblong holes. I will be looking at these with gauge pins, but still . . . the end user should not see these problems.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2018, 12:01 PM »
. . . but the meter itself has not changed. Because I am now in the process of checking the hole size and spacing on the MK II sticks I received, I started by taking a quick look at the scales. They are different, and that causes me to question the hole pattern. What I have seen so far is that one of the two sticks seems alright, but the second one appears to have oblong holes. I will be looking at these with gauge pins, but still . . . the end user should not see these problems.

If you have any issues whatsoever use the excellent Customer Services at Axminster. You will get any problem you have resolved very quickly and it will save you time as well. They do not monitor the FOG and so contacting them yourself is the best way forward.

Peter

Offline marmot

  • Posts: 21
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2018, 01:35 PM »
I still maintain that the easiest and cheapest way to replicate an MFT top is as follows:


*Purchase the Sys-MFT Systainer and remove the Festool-brand MDF top from it.  The top on it is removable and can be re-attached later with the same torx screws on the underside of the lid.  I think it's 4 or 6 screws total.  Mine was very easy to remove.  ~1 minute or so.
http://www.amazon.com/Festool-500076-SYS-MFT-Tabletop-Systainer/dp/B00F0GJW12

*Purchase three or four 20mm dogs to hold the Sys-MFT top in place while you clamp it down and drill.

*Buy a 20mm drill bit.  There are a few different bits that would be suggested around here.  If you let it this can actually be one of the most expensive parts of this method!

*Line the Sys-MFT top up square in a corner of your MDF or bench top surface.  There are a few ways to ensure it's square on the wood.  Clamp it securely so it will not move at all during drilling - which is actually surprisingly easy because of the recessed clamping areas on the MDF top - then drill your first hole.  If you have a drilling jig use it, but it's not that important due to the depth of the Sys-MFT MDF top which helps keep the bit straight and completely negates speed wobble.  Router bits are actually not as great because they cut from the side.  Insert your 20mm dog into the first hole to help keep it in line even more, leaving it clamped.  Drill the additional holes, inserting dogs into the holes as needed.

*After all holes for that section have been drilled, remove the clamps and dogs, and re-position the Sys-MFT top using the dogs as a guide to keep it straight and square.  Keep repeating the process as needed until you get as many holes in your bench top as you want.

---------------
You can just use a standard drill.  I used the PDC-18, and all of my holes are identical, perfectly square and in-line.  The Forstner bit's cutting motion (only straight down) and the depth of the Sys-MFT hole's sidewalls are enough to keep your work perfectly clean.  You essentially get holes that were good enough for Festool when they batched out their tops for Sys-MFT.  Unless you're a machinist and/or are working for NASA, you're good.  It's woodworking.  The wood will move in greater increments than the tolerances Festool used anyway.


The Sys-MFT is actually extremely valuable as well - it's one of the most underrated Festool products out there.  At ~$78.00 I am very surprised more people don't feature it in threads.

Offline travisj

  • Posts: 363
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2018, 01:22 AM »
I still maintain that the easiest and cheapest way to replicate an MFT top is as follows:


*Purchase the Sys-MFT Systainer and remove the Festool-brand MDF top from it.  The top on it is removable and can be re-attached later with the same torx screws on the underside of the lid.  I think it's 4 or 6 screws total.  Mine was very easy to remove.  ~1 minute or so.
http://www.amazon.com/Festool-500076-SYS-MFT-Tabletop-Systainer/dp/B00F0GJW12

*Purchase three or four 20mm dogs to hold the Sys-MFT top in place while you clamp it down and drill.

*Buy a 20mm drill bit.  There are a few different bits that would be suggested around here.  If you let it this can actually be one of the most expensive parts of this method!

*Line the Sys-MFT top up square in a corner of your MDF or bench top surface.  There are a few ways to ensure it's square on the wood.  Clamp it securely so it will not move at all during drilling - which is actually surprisingly easy because of the recessed clamping areas on the MDF top - then drill your first hole.  If you have a drilling jig use it, but it's not that important due to the depth of the Sys-MFT MDF top which helps keep the bit straight and completely negates speed wobble.  Router bits are actually not as great because they cut from the side.  Insert your 20mm dog into the first hole to help keep it in line even more, leaving it clamped.  Drill the additional holes, inserting dogs into the holes as needed.

*After all holes for that section have been drilled, remove the clamps and dogs, and re-position the Sys-MFT top using the dogs as a guide to keep it straight and square.  Keep repeating the process as needed until you get as many holes in your bench top as you want.

---------------
You can just use a standard drill.  I used the PDC-18, and all of my holes are identical, perfectly square and in-line.  The Forstner bit's cutting motion (only straight down) and the depth of the Sys-MFT hole's sidewalls are enough to keep your work perfectly clean.  You essentially get holes that were good enough for Festool when they batched out their tops for Sys-MFT.  Unless you're a machinist and/or are working for NASA, you're good.  It's woodworking.  The wood will move in greater increments than the tolerances Festool used anyway.


The Sys-MFT is actually extremely valuable as well - it's one of the most underrated Festool products out there.  At ~$78.00 I am very surprised more people don't feature it in threads.


My dealer suggested a similar method for when it came time to replace MFT tops.  Essentially use the old top as a template with a router and a bearing guided template bit.  Router bit should be more accurate than a drill and bit.  An actual MFT top could be more accurate than using the SYS-MFT top since more holes would be bored off of the same template prior to moving, less likely to misalign.

All of that said, I used the Parf guide on my outfeed table and couldn’t be happier.


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Offline Farming_Sawyer

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2018, 07:00 AM »

The Sys-MFT is actually extremely valuable as well - it's one of the most underrated Festool products out there.  At ~$78.00 I am very surprised more people don't feature it in threads.

I love my Sys-mft. Im about to buy a second. Use it all the time on the job. But in the time it takes to remove the top, align it on a top I could have squared the Parf system and been drilling a grid. Trying to accurately drill holds thru an mft top is needlessly slow if you want accuracy and are trying not to damage the template.

A router and template bit won't work on existing 20mm holes because the resulting holes will be too small. Enlarging the template mft top holes for a guide bushing is as much work as making a top. The Parf guide costs a bit more than a pre  made top but is so much more useful than a fixed template.
I'm very happy with its purchase. Now I just need to find a way to simply make the Sys-mft tops....



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
[/quote]
CT 26E, RO125, sys-mft, sys-toolbox, a bunch of 30 year old tools I'm looking to replace.

Offline Scorpion

  • Posts: 586
Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2018, 09:36 AM »


Can’t blame the machine, looks to me like the they forgot to take the width of the markings into account when laying out the rule in CAD.  Lacking some quality control processes too it would appear.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 09:38 AM by Scorpion »

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1222
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2018, 10:26 AM »
I still maintain that the easiest and cheapest way to replicate an MFT top is as follows:

*Purchase the Sys-MFT Systainer

Snip.

The Sys-MFT is actually extremely valuable as well - it's one of the most underrated Festool products out there


I don't use or need (for now at least) an MFT platform, but it's good to know that my Sys-MFT can be used to make a clone MFT! I have all the items (drill, dogs, etc. you list). Thank you for sharing this.

You're right that the Sys-MFT is underrated and, in my case, underused. The brand new item has been in my shop, never used for two years or more. Could you share how you use it or what you use it for in your shop?
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 10:29 AM by ChuckM »

Offline Farming_Sawyer

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2018, 10:54 AM »
On the job away from the main work area, it's great. Also as a portable extension for table or chop saw, or for holding the end of a long board for shaping.
CT 26E, RO125, sys-mft, sys-toolbox, a bunch of 30 year old tools I'm looking to replace.

Offline travisj

  • Posts: 363
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2018, 05:52 PM »

The Sys-MFT is actually extremely valuable as well - it's one of the most underrated Festool products out there.  At ~$78.00 I am very surprised more people don't feature it in threads.

I love my Sys-mft. Im about to buy a second. Use it all the time on the job. But in the time it takes to remove the top, align it on a top I could have squared the Parf system and been drilling a grid. Trying to accurately drill holds thru an mft top is needlessly slow if you want accuracy and are trying not to damage the template.

A router and template bit won't work on existing 20mm holes because the resulting holes will be too small. Enlarging the template mft top holes for a guide bushing is as much work as making a top. The Parf guide costs a bit more than a pre  made top but is so much more useful than a fixed template.
I'm very happy with its purchase. Now I just need to find a way to simply make the Sys-mft tops....



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
[/quote]

I misspoke.  A router and a bearing guided flush trim bit is what I meant to say.  Lay the MFT top on the new surface, drill a clearance hole, and trim the the holes in the new surface with the flush trim bit.

This suggestion was years before the Parf Guide came into existence.  I have the Mk I version of the guide and used it on my outfeed table.  I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend it or use it again on whatever surface I wanted system holes in.


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Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6450
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2018, 06:27 PM »
The Sys-MFT is actually extremely valuable as well - it's one of the most underrated Festool products out there.  At ~$78.00 I am very surprised more people don't feature it in threads.

I agree...I have one attached to my CT 22 and one attached to my MIDI. Open them up and inside you’ll find pencils, felt markers, MFT clamps, a few sheets of sandpaper, a small pad of  note paper and a vac nozzle or vac brush. Pretty handy little mobile work bench.

Online gnlman

  • Posts: 203
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2018, 04:36 PM »
Hi. I thought I'd bring this thread back to life, and glad I came across it today.

I ordered the Mark II system from Axeminster tools as it was not available in NA yet and was not sure when it would be...
I was planning on making a top for my paulk style workbench I am building, and wanted it for the holidays when I had some time off.

I rec'd it towards end of November and like a lot of people do, I opened up the package inspected it to make sure all parts where there and no damage..then put it back in the packaging until I was going to use it. I didn't check the sticks for alignment issues as they seemed to be fine just eyeballing the holes....

Today I decided to start my new top and when I tried to align the 2 sticks with the threaded pin, the pin was difficult to install...the sticks would not lay flat once thru both sticks which made me think something was off. I took the 2 sticks and stacked them like the OP and found the same results.

I have contacted Axeminster tools, and am totally confident they will sort this out for me.

I realise that this system is now available in NA, and the only reason I'm posting this again is there may be more folks that have now purchased this item, and like myself only inspected it for damage ect., and not used it yet. Hopefully if you are one of them and read this post you will check our sticks for accuracy in case you don't use the system for a while and when you go to use it you can't.
The rest of the parts for the system seem to be very accurate and machined very well to me. I'm sure once this gets sorted out it will be a great system for making larger benchtops.
Greg



« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 04:46 PM by gnlman »

Offline Bernmc

  • Posts: 43
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2018, 06:33 PM »
I've also got my PGII from Axminster recently, and used over the last few days. I didn't have any issues with the standard spacing grid - everything seemed to line up properly. Where I did encounter a problem was with the offset 32 hole, which seems to be out. I couldn't install the little pin with the stick flat on the table, and when I used Peter's recommended 'put the pin in the stick in the air and then place the whole thing on the table, it bowed the parf stick slightly (and seems to have left a permanent slight bow/twist in the guide).

I'm not confident enough in my own skill and accuracy to rule out user error, but it would seem strange that everything else seems to line up perfectly. I'll let Axminster know and see what comes of it. I have a Paulk workbench pending, and two tops to do, so it'll get another workout shortly.

Hard to photograph well, but I had a go. ALthough the pic is of the no. 10 hole, it’s actually the 32 offset hole drilled previously, and I was then using the parf stick to check alignment. Side view is the bow in the stick now (it’s not pinned to the bench in this pic)
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 08:04 PM by Bernmc »

Offline wch

  • Posts: 7
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2019, 01:31 AM »
I received my replacement Parf sticks from Axminster. The package arrived fairly beat up. In the original order, the kit arrived in a tube inside a box, and was well protected. This time, it was just the tube, with no box.

290128-0

The Parf sticks were bent.

290130-1

I was able to bend them back a bit, but they still didn't quite rest flat.

I'll call my first pair of Parf sticks A and B, and the second pair C and D. As I described earlier, the holes in A and B were slightly out of alignment. So were the holes in C and D. Luckily, the holes in A and C did line up, so I used that pair. (Of the six possible pairings, that was the only pair where the holes were in good alignment.)

Even though C was slightly bent, it didn't cause any problems with the hole layout.

This time, the hole layout went much more smoothly. In my previous attempt, I had some situations where I extended the top and bottom rows of 3mm holes to the right, but then could not get the Parf stick to line up with both the right-most top and bottom holes. This time, I didn't have that problem. There were a few situations where it was very tight and difficult to insert two distant pins through the Parf stick holes into the 3mm holes drilled in the MDF, but I found that I was able to push the pins sideways just a little, and since the MDF has a little give to it, this would slightly extend or shorten the distance between the pair of pins, allowing them to seat all the way in the Parf stick.

I found that inserting and removing the pins was in general very difficult because the fit in the holes was very tight. There's no way I could have inserted and removed them by hand without assistance. I ended up putting clamps on the pins (and leaving them on) so that there was a much larger handle to push, pull, and twist the pins. Here's a picture of the 20mm guide pinned to the worktop, where each pin is being held by a quick clamp.

290134-2

I added some holes that were offset by 48mm both horizontally and vertically, and I used the UJK chamfer cutter to chamfer the holes. Here is the end result. I think it turned out very nicely!

290132-3

One thing that I was curious about was how close to perpendicular the 20mm holes would be. I drilled the 3mm holes as close to perpendicular as I could by hand, and the same for the 20mm holes. The guides help immensely, but still, most of the holes were slightly out of perpendicular. Here is a typical one; some were slightly better, some were slightly worse. (For this photo, I positioned the square from the direction that had the most error.)

290136-4

I also noticed that holes on one side of the the worktop tended to tilt one way, and holes on the other side tended to tilt the other way, probably because I have a systematic bias when drilling the holes (say, angling to the right), and I stood on opposite sides of the table to drill holes that were on opposite sides.

This could be an issue when the dogs are used to position the guide rail. Obviously, the thicker the stock being cut, the higher up the guide rail will be, and so the greater the cut error. I suspect that the small amount of error won't cause any real problems. The error could be reduced by using dog holes that are as far apart as possible -- this will reduce the error angle.

I also noticed that if I placed three dogs in one row, then pushed a good straightedge up against them, in most cases I could rock the straightedge a little bit (with the middle dog acting as the pivot point) if it was on one side of the dogs, but not the other. This indicates that the holes are slightly non-colinear. Again, I suspect that the amount of error is small enough that it won't cause any problems in real-world usage.

290140-5

I don't have access to a Festool MFT table, so I don't know how my worktop compares in terms of accuracy. At any rate, I am looking forward to getting some good use out of it!

Offline cubevandude

  • Posts: 51
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2019, 08:54 AM »
I'd be wild if I got a package like that.
I'd say your problems are because your sticks are bent.  The tolerances are so tight any bend would affects how it works.  I have the mark 1 system from Lee Valley and bent one of the pins ever so slightly and it is tighter to insert, just by lifting up one end of the stick before removing the pin.   I've never had any problems with accuracy with the Mark 1 jig.  They whole key to the system is drilling the 3mm holes properly as they are the guide for the 20mm bit.  There are a few videos our there in which they are not using the guide dog when drilling the 3mm holes.  I think that is why they created the MarkII. To try and eliminate human error.

Offline wch

  • Posts: 7
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2019, 12:29 AM »
A few more follow-up notes on this:

I did the four-cut test on a 24"x24" piece of hardboard, and the error I found per cut was only 0.021 degrees, which is actually better than the 0.031 which Peter Parfitt in the where he tested it. So I'm very pleased with the accuracy of the work top!

One thing worth mentioning is that the hardboard was only 3/32" thick; it's possible that the error will be larger with thicker stock due to holes being slightly off from being perfectly vertical (as I showed in an earlier photo), and the higher-positioned rail therefore being more offset.

I finished the table with three coats of water-based polyurethane. This had the result of making the surface a bit rougher and grippier. I think it's because the water raised the "grain" of the MDF. I'm glad this happened, because I have had some issues with narrow stock moving when it's being cut. I would actually like to make the surface even grippier than it is, but I'm not sure how to do that now.


I'd be wild if I got a package like that.
I'd say your problems are because your sticks are bent.  The tolerances are so tight any bend would affects how it works.

I actually found that the bent sticks (which were from the second shipment) didn't cause problems in accuracy. I made sure to push the bent part flat when I used it. The problem was that the holes were not spaced exactly the same in the first pair of Parf sticks. I haven't contacted Axminster about it yet because I've been very busy with other things. Hopefully they'll be able to provide some sort of remedy.

Offline box185

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2019, 01:01 AM »
What is important (for the resulting "squareness" or "perpendicularity" of the resulting hole pattern), however, is that the spacing between the holes is consistent - and that the two sticks used are identical.

I'm sure there are a lot of people here who are not interested in this level of detail, but I'll post this information because I found the results interesting. I have the MK II Parf Guide System and like the OP, I also noticed problems with the hole spacing. I finally got around to making some careful measurements, and discovered a pattern.

First, I checked the hole diameters with metric Gauge Pins. The results seemed good - most holes were 6.00 mm or 6.01 mm ( only one hole was 6.02 mm ). The distance between the holes, however, seems to alternate between being 0.003 to 0.004 inch short on the expected value and being 0.003 to 0.004 inch long. With that much difference between the measurements, my dial calipers were accurate enough to detect the pattern. I was also able to measure the distance between one pair of holes, lock the calipers and clearly see that the adjacent pair of holes are different. The measurements were rounded to the closest 0.001 inch.

PS 1      PS 2
3.539   3.539
3.547   3.547
3.540   3.540
3.547   3.548
3.539   3.540
3.547   3.546
3.540   3.540
3.547   3.548
3.539   3.540
3.547   3.547

Given the 96 mm spacing of 6 mm holes, the expected distance between the holes should be 96 - 6 mm, or 3.5433 inches.

I contacted Axminster on 20 December as Peter Parfitt suggested. On 03 January, I reached out again and received the following reply.

"We are currently working on a solution to this issue and the correct stock will be dispatched shortly

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Kevin King
Specialist Sales Advisor
"

I have not heard anything since 03 January.

I am not an expert in tolerance measurements, but the pattern I saw seems to indicate a quality issue with the MK II product.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2019, 07:26 AM by box185 »

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2019, 08:08 AM »
I have been in contact with Axminster about this and they believe that a batch of 5 pairs of rulers may be affected by a manufacturing error. They had already sold out of the Mark 2 system before this came to light. They are now waiting for some blanks to arrive in order to produce replacements and new stock.

Unfortunately the Christmas and New Year breaks, which were in two short periods for Axminster, have delayed he arrival of the blanks.

I am really sorry for the disruption and disappointment that this has caused for those affected. As soon as I get any more news I will let you know.

Peter

Offline wch

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2019, 10:20 AM »
box185, good idea to measure the spacing between each adjacent pair of holes.

I just measured the spacing on my ruler A (as I mentioned previously, I labeled the two from my first shipment A and B, and the two from the second shipment C and D). My results, in mm:

89.91
90.07
89.90
90.06
89.93
90.07
89.95
90.07
89.92
90.10

I checked the other rulers as well, and found that they all had a similar alternating pattern. I will be contacting Axminster about this as well.

Although this didn't prevent me from making a work surface that gives me very accurate results with the 4-cut test, I do wonder if some of the tight spots (where I had to push the pins sideways a bit) were caused in part by this issue.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2019, 10:35 AM »
Hi @wch

Can you provide a picture of the equipment and method that you are using to produce results to 2 decimal places of a mm please?

Peter