Author Topic: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions  (Read 36327 times)

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Offline ColossusX

  • Posts: 195
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #180 on: May 04, 2019, 08:28 PM »
Any idea when TSO or Axminster will get the Mk 2 back in stock?

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Offline Jruks

  • Posts: 23
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #181 on: May 08, 2019, 10:29 AM »
Just got finished drilling about 200 holes (x2 if you count the 3mm) over the last 2 days... system works very well but darn I wish I had a Festool drill with removable chuck.

The stop collar shipping on mark 2 is still garbage. It stripped and fell off about 2/3 of the way through and I just had to keep the bit attached in my drill chick.

@TSO Products I bought from you guys but think you guys should go back to including your own steel stop collar if possible like you did with mark 1. The one included in aluminum is not durable at all over more than 1 MFT table worth of holes. The rest of the kit is solid though.

I haven’t tested the layout everywhere but checked a few spots across the table and seems good. There was only one column I found with a small rocking between 3 dogs. It wasn’t more than 1mm but I didn’t break out the deeer gauges to check. Other columns seemed fine so not sure what happened with that column but it’s not one I plan to use for cross cutting anyway. Will do more testing next weekend.

Overall very happy though.


Offline TSO Products

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #182 on: May 08, 2019, 10:42 AM »
Quote:
@TSO Products I bought from you guys but think you guys should go back to including your own steel stop collar if possible like you did with mark 1. The one included in aluminum is not durable at all over more than 1 MFT table worth of holes. The rest of the kit is solid though.

@Jruks – we really appreciate your comments about the Stop Collar. The Clamping Collar we have added for a time while AXMINSTER was still supplying the steel set screw version solved the problem. The cost to us was painfully high for two reasons: the high cost of supplying a US made Stainless Steel Clamping Collar, inbound shipping, receiving, then picking and opening the Parf Guide tubes to include the Clamping collar and an explanatory notice all added up. Before we could even overpack the PGS and return it to the warehouse shelf.
You can see how labor- and  transaction cost-intensive some harmless looking items actually turn out to be.
I will be in England later this month and meet with Axminster. I will take this matter up with them again. – thanks for your feedback!
Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE  plus TPG Parallel Guide -  the MTR-18 Triangle - TDS-10 Dog Stop and GRC-12 Guide Rail Connector; Work Holding solutions plus AXMINSTER UJK in the USA

Offline Jruks

  • Posts: 23
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #183 on: May 08, 2019, 10:53 AM »
Totally get it. You guys went above and beyond on that one. Obviously the ideal would be for Axminster to include a better quality stop in the first place :).

Quote:
@TSO Products I bought from you guys but think you guys should go back to including your own steel stop collar if possible like you did with mark 1. The one included in aluminum is not durable at all over more than 1 MFT table worth of holes. The rest of the kit is solid though.

@Jruks – we really appreciate your comments about the Stop Collar. The Clamping Collar we have added for a time while AXMINSTER was still supplying the steel set screw version solved the problem. The cost to us was painfully high for two reasons: the high cost of supplying a US made Stainless Steel Clamping Collar, inbound shipping, receiving, then picking and opening the Parf Guide tubes to include the Clamping collar and an explanatory notice all added up. Before we could even overpack the PGS and return it to the warehouse shelf.
You can see how labor- and  transaction cost-intensive some harmless looking items actually turn out to be.
I will be in England later this month and meet with Axminster. I will take this matter up with them again. – thanks for your feedback!
Hans

Offline TSO Products

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #184 on: May 08, 2019, 11:58 AM »
Any idea when TSO or Axminster will get the Mk 2 back in stock?

@ColossusX  - According to Axminster they will be shipping our order next week. May 13 - 17. We are expecting to be able to deliver to customers May 24th.

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE  plus TPG Parallel Guide -  the MTR-18 Triangle - TDS-10 Dog Stop and GRC-12 Guide Rail Connector; Work Holding solutions plus AXMINSTER UJK in the USA

Offline ColossusX

  • Posts: 195
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #185 on: May 08, 2019, 11:38 PM »
Excellent.  Hope to place an order soon. 

Offline mxn

  • Posts: 1
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #186 on: May 10, 2019, 04:05 AM »
Hello everybody,

I'm a quiet reader for some time now, this is my first post in this nice community. English is not my first language, but I think you get the point of what I'm trying to share  [wink].

I recently ordered the PGS Mk II after some trial and finally realizing I would not get the precision I was looking for with other methods (except a CNC which was not an option). I ordered from Axminster UK and got the package in under one week (UK to Germany). The sticks came with a silk print and unfortunately suffered from the issues some of you already mentioned: The sticks had a little curve showing a gap when placed side by side, when fixed in hole 1 and 6 the ends around hole 10 overlapped by about 0,5 mm and so on... A major problem I see with the line of holes not being parallel to the ruler's edge is that I can't get the first set of holes parallel to the benchtop's edge easily by positioning the ruler's edge - even if the hole would be perfectly in line...
I contacted the Axminster CS and got a quick and nice reply, a set of sticks that had been checked for accuracy had been shipped out to me free of charge.
The second set was indeed accurate, the holes seemed a little tight and I had to use quite some force to bring in the drill guide for the first times but for me that's ok and acceptable due to the tight tolerances. The second set had the embossed Logo in it. As far as I know from what I read, these should be the old ones, right? I could imagine that there's something wrong with the production line of the "new" sets, maybe that could even be the reason for the major stores being out of stock at the moment. However, I'm pleased with the result I now get with this set and do not regret buying it and - by the way - supporting Mr. Parfitt as the genius inventor!  [wink]
Another little thing I saw when I thought about a storing solution: The 25 mm head of the parf dogs fit the first gap under the drill guide bushing in the orange block but do not fit the second gap. Can anybody confirm this with his / her set?

Cheers, Max


Offline Mike Goetzke

  • Posts: 319
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #187 on: May 11, 2019, 11:48 AM »
@mxn Your rules appear to me to be the new ones.

"The 25 mm head of the parf dogs fit the first gap under the drill guide bushing in the orange block but do not fit the second gap. Can anybody confirm this with his / her set?"  Mine is like this too.

Mike

Offline Claimdude

  • Posts: 357
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #188 on: May 11, 2019, 09:09 PM »
Hans,

Would this stainless collar from Grainger work for those of us that didn't get in on the kits y'all sold with the updated collar?

https://www.grainger.com/product/RULAND-MANUFACTURING-316-Stainless-Steel-Shaft-30VK78

Thanks
 Jack

Quote:
@TSO Products I bought from you guys but think you guys should go back to including your own steel stop collar if possible like you did with mark 1. The one included in aluminum is not durable at all over more than 1 MFT table worth of holes. The rest of the kit is solid though.

@Jruks – we really appreciate your comments about the Stop Collar. The Clamping Collar we have added for a time while AXMINSTER was still supplying the steel set screw version solved the problem. The cost to us was painfully high for two reasons: the high cost of supplying a US made Stainless Steel Clamping Collar, inbound shipping, receiving, then picking and opening the Parf Guide tubes to include the Clamping collar and an explanatory notice all added up. Before we could even overpack the PGS and return it to the warehouse shelf.
You can see how labor- and  transaction cost-intensive some harmless looking items actually turn out to be.
I will be in England later this month and meet with Axminster. I will take this matter up with them again. – thanks for your feedback!
Hans

Offline TSO Products

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #189 on: May 11, 2019, 10:05 PM »
Hans,

Would this stainless collar from Grainger work for those of us that didn't get in on the kits y'all sold with the updated collar?

https://www.grainger.com/product/RULAND-MANUFACTURING-316-Stainless-Steel-Shaft-30VK78

Thanks
 Jack


YES, Jack - that is the Clamping Collar we have provided. Perhaps we should make it available for purchase. Wonder if there is enough interest to warrant the effort.
Any others interested?

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE  plus TPG Parallel Guide -  the MTR-18 Triangle - TDS-10 Dog Stop and GRC-12 Guide Rail Connector; Work Holding solutions plus AXMINSTER UJK in the USA

Offline jayshahu

  • Posts: 6
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #190 on: May 12, 2019, 08:03 PM »
axminister was out of the 20 mm drill bit till Thursday. They sent me a new one on friday. Waiting for it to arrive.

I seem to be having a run with bad luck. First the rulers, then the 20 mm drill bit shaft. I tried testing the bench dogs in the orange block and there is a little bit of a play . Once I get my drill bit I will drill a set of holes and see what happens.

This is crazy. I should have purchased from TSO. Though axminster has been great with regards to customer service but the shipping times are just too much.

Offline m. lindholm

  • Posts: 12
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #191 on: May 15, 2019, 10:51 AM »
Hans,

Would this stainless collar from Grainger work for those of us that didn't get in on the kits y'all sold with the updated collar?

https://www.grainger.com/product/RULAND-MANUFACTURING-316-Stainless-Steel-Shaft-30VK78

Thanks
 Jack

YES, Jack - that is the Clamping Collar we have provided. Perhaps we should make it available for purchase. Wonder if there is enough interest to warrant the effort.
Any others interested?

Hans

I assume it merely looks similar, but isn't technically the actual one you got.  While the stainless clamping collar is an improvement over the aluminum setscrew one, it seems a disservice to choose a $32 part, versus a very similar, $12 one.  Including an item like that would certainly have explained some of the cost difference between you and ordering direct from Axminster.  [wink]

Kidding aside, even though I got the Mark II kit which now includes the clamping collar, the aluminum one got scratched and galled on its bottom surface after making my first top.  I had planned to order one of the stainless clamping collars (the $12 303-SS one, not the $32 316-SS one) to replace it, since I have a Grainger near where I eat lunch, so no shipping charge.

I think it's a reasonable idea to get a small quantity of the cheaper ones, and add them to your items.  Especially if a person doesn't have a Grainger nearby, adding that to a Parf guide order is a smart add-on idea.

Offline Mike Goetzke

  • Posts: 319
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #192 on: May 15, 2019, 11:33 AM »
Hans,

Would this stainless collar from Grainger work for those of us that didn't get in on the kits y'all sold with the updated collar?

https://www.grainger.com/product/RULAND-MANUFACTURING-316-Stainless-Steel-Shaft-30VK78

Thanks
 Jack

YES, Jack - that is the Clamping Collar we have provided. Perhaps we should make it available for purchase. Wonder if there is enough interest to warrant the effort.
Any others interested?

Hans

I assume it merely looks similar, but isn't technically the actual one you got.  While the stainless clamping collar is an improvement over the aluminum setscrew one, it seems a disservice to choose a $32 part, versus a very similar, $12 one.  Including an item like that would certainly have explained some of the cost difference between you and ordering direct from Axminster.  [wink]

Kidding aside, even though I got the Mark II kit which now includes the clamping collar, the aluminum one got scratched and galled on its bottom surface after making my first top.  I had planned to order one of the stainless clamping collars (the $12 303-SS one, not the $32 316-SS one) to replace it, since I have a Grainger near where I eat lunch, so no shipping charge.

I think it's a reasonable idea to get a small quantity of the cheaper ones, and add them to your items.  Especially if a person doesn't have a Grainger nearby, adding that to a Parf guide order is a smart add-on idea.

Sorry but why is the aluminum stop collar not good. If it’s wear couldn’t we just add a $0.25 nylon wear washer in place of a $32 SS collar?

Offline tomp

  • Posts: 97
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #193 on: May 15, 2019, 12:00 PM »
Or, you could try something like this, shouldn't be too hard to open the bore up to 10mm

Nylon Split Collar

Offline jkc_WA

  • Posts: 6
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #194 on: May 16, 2019, 01:34 AM »
To follow up after having a chance to make a quick cutting station, I did a five cut test. I measured 0.934" at the top end, 0.928" at the bottom end. The offcut piece was 13 3/4" long (actually just shy, more like 13 47/64"). So it was 0.007" over 13.75". [0.007/13.75/4] gives an actual error of 0.00013 radians!

Offline jkc_WA

  • Posts: 6
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #195 on: May 16, 2019, 01:36 AM »
I just noticed my error in reporting 0.007 as the difference between .934 and .928. Should be 0.006 which would then yield an error of 0.00011 radians.

Offline Rta108

  • Posts: 21
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #196 on: July 04, 2019, 01:33 PM »
First post here.
Researching the problems I’m having with my new mark 2 Parf system. I can’t seem to make a straight line of holes, seeing basically the same issues mentioned previously.

Bought direct from axminster, so I’ve reached out to them hoping for some help.

Offline TSO_Products

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #197 on: July 04, 2019, 02:06 PM »
First post here.
Researching the problems I’m having with my new mark 2 Parf system. I can’t seem to make a straight line of holes, seeing basically the same issues mentioned previously.

Bought direct from axminster, so I’ve reached out to them hoping for some help.

@Rta108 -let us know if we can help here in the US.

Holes not lining up at this stage of the MARK 2 product life seems an unlikely product defect. I saw their checking fixture when I was there 6 weeks ago. A machined fixture with fixed steel locating pins and they're checking 100% of production Parf Stick Mark 2.

You can reach us at
          info@tsoproducts.com

mention your FOG handle and add a phone number, too!

Hans

Offline TSO_Products

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #198 on: July 04, 2019, 02:13 PM »
 -one more picture of the Parf Stick Inspection fixture - detail

Hans

Offline Rta108

  • Posts: 21
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #199 on: July 04, 2019, 02:17 PM »
Email sent thanks.

I’m far from perfect. I’ve actually spent some time trying to rule myself out as the problem.

I’m finding The misalignment errors to be consistent and repeatable.




Offline Rta108

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #200 on: July 04, 2019, 02:20 PM »
The holes shown in those Parf sticks look much cleaner than mine.

Offline Solly1

  • Posts: 18
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #201 on: July 04, 2019, 04:18 PM »
@TSO Products - seems like the perfect opportunity to discuss instigating, what seems to be on the surface, obvious improvements to the execution ...
a) a quality check at the end of manufacture that emulates the tests we are all doing in this thread to identify discrepancies before they reach customers (e.g.a highly accurate machined rack with 17 x 6mm posts that each ruler is stacked upon, or discarded if not able to be)

Holes not lining up at this stage of the MARK 2 product life seems an unlikely product defect. I saw their checking fixture when I was there 6 weeks ago. A machined fixture with fixed steel locating pins and they're checking 100% of production Parf Stick Mark 2.

Glad they adopted my suggestion Hans @TSO_Products [tongue] [big grin], in theory it should eliminate the rule issues although if Rta108's purchase was recent, maybe not? I wonder if it's possible the rules deform at altitude/temp changes when shipping somehow ...

@Rta108 Further to above posts, I subsequently received a 2nd set of rules from Axminster (their follow up service was impeccable) ... rule #3's holes weren't co-linear, but rule #4 was close. I therefore only used #3 for layout pinned between 0 and 10, and only #4 for drilling the holes. I also found that when pinned in 0 and 10, there was the ability for the rule to deflect significantly, so I took to using three pins, 0, 10 and adjacent to the current hole being drilled to secure it. Likewise 3 pins / locators with the 20mm jig. Seemed to improve things considerably.

I since completed a full set of holes on a full sheet work table 2400 x 1200 and diagonals between holes were within 1mm taking Peter's advice to begin in the middle third and work outwards. Yet to confirm if all the holes are co-linear, but a couple of quick 5 cut tests seemed very accurate (0.00007 radians / 0.004 degrees if my math was correct). I also drilled some 3mm holes in all 4 corners and middle to allow for future offset holes if desired.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 04:26 PM by Solly1 »

Offline Rta108

  • Posts: 21
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #202 on: July 04, 2019, 05:06 PM »
My rulers look a little rough, IMO.

The whole set oozes quality.... until you notice the holes. rough chamfers, burrs, and general inconsistency. Sometimes the 3mm pin drops right in, sometimes I can’t get it at all without a battle. I’d say they look like they’ve been worked by hand.

Hoping I just got old stock.

Offline Rta108

  • Posts: 21
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #203 on: July 11, 2019, 07:46 PM »
Got my replacement sticks direct from Axminster. I agree, follow up service was top notch.

I still can’t get a straight row holes, with either of the new rulers. On of them is particularly bad at the 32/48 offset holes on the end. If I flip a stick and stack them, as mirror image, the holes don’t line up when pinned together at 0 and 10.

Also, interestingly, the sticks themselves aren’t straight. Slight curve. I know that shouldn’t matter, as long as the holes are straight, but the hole misalignment does follow the curve of the ruler.

Oh well. Return shipping cost makes a refund request impractical. I guess it’s still good for dog holes, just can’t use it to line up a track.

« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 07:49 PM by Rta108 »

Offline Jruks

  • Posts: 23
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #204 on: July 11, 2019, 08:07 PM »
Why not just keep asking for replacement sticks until you get a set that works? Given their customer service they should sort you out even if it takes a few tries for that price.

Got my replacement sticks direct from Axminster. I agree, follow up service was top notch.

I still can’t get a straight row holes, with either of the new rulers. On of them is particularly bad at the 32/48 offset holes on the end. If I flip a stick and stack them, as mirror image, the holes don’t line up when pinned together at 0 and 10.

Also, interestingly, the sticks themselves aren’t straight. Slight curve. I know that shouldn’t matter, as long as the holes are straight, but the hole misalignment does follow the curve of the ruler.

Oh well. Return shipping cost makes a refund request impractical. I guess it’s still good for dog holes, just can’t use it to line up a track.

Offline Rta108

  • Posts: 21
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #205 on: July 11, 2019, 08:29 PM »
Why not just keep asking for replacement sticks until you get a set that works? Given their customer service they should sort you out even if it takes a few tries for that price.

Got my replacement sticks direct from Axminster. I agree, follow up service was top notch.

I still can’t get a straight row holes, with either of the new rulers. On of them is particularly bad at the 32/48 offset holes on the end. If I flip a stick and stack them, as mirror image, the holes don’t line up when pinned together at 0 and 10.

Also, interestingly, the sticks themselves aren’t straight. Slight curve. I know that shouldn’t matter, as long as the holes are straight, but the hole misalignment does follow the curve of the ruler.

Oh well. Return shipping cost makes a refund request impractical. I guess it’s still good for dog holes, just can’t use it to line up a track.

I’m just kind of over it. Not investing more time or material. Plus FedEx requires a signature, so I have to drive 20 minutes to the depot to pick up after work.

These ones were checked before they went out. If they discovered/corrected some manufacturing issue, I’d ask for another set.

Offline box185

  • Posts: 79
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #206 on: July 11, 2019, 09:38 PM »
I’m just kind of over it. Not investing more time or material.

This is where I ended up several months ago too . . . just kind of over it.

I like the idea, but my experience with the PGS MKII is that there are issues that Axminster has not been able to resolve.

Paul

Offline box185

  • Posts: 79
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #207 on: July 11, 2019, 09:51 PM »
It would be a great help if you, as a customer receiving an unsatisfactory Parf Guide, give TSO the opportunity to evaluate the part right here in the US before any attempt has been made to correct or “fix” the problem. It does not matter from whom you purchased your Parf Guide. To help, we need the “evidence” to root out the underlying cause and we will provide the no-charge replacement from our fresh stock for the few examples which may still turn up.

Hans and Eric

Hans,

I participated in your call for artifacts several weeks ago and I know that you later met with Axminster to discuss the results of your testing. Are you able to share in a general sense what you discovered? How many Parf Sticks did you test, and were you able to confirm the reported issues?

Paul

Offline TSO Products

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Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #208 on: July 11, 2019, 11:24 PM »
what  I saw and the picture I posted on Reply # 198 seemed to me get the job done, considering they had changed from stamping the holes to CNC Milling them. But apparently that approach still let's some some less than satisfactory product get out the door.

What has them scratching their heads is that a very few unsatisfactory parts reach customers without them having the ability to pin down down a pattern or root cause to nail down.

I plan to have further conversations with ADMINISTER about process improvements they are making.

We'll stay with it - they're good people making a real effort.

Hans
TSOproducts.com

Home of the GRS-16 and GRS-16 PE  plus TPG Parallel Guide -  the MTR-18 Triangle - TDS-10 Dog Stop and GRC-12 Guide Rail Connector; Work Holding solutions plus AXMINSTER UJK in the USA

Offline Mike Goetzke

  • Posts: 319
Re: Parf Guide mark 2 issues and questions
« Reply #209 on: July 11, 2019, 11:31 PM »
My rulers look a little rough, IMO.

The whole set oozes quality.... until you notice the holes. rough chamfers, burrs, and general inconsistency. Sometimes the 3mm pin drops right in, sometimes I can’t get it at all without a battle. I’d say they look like they’ve been worked by hand.

Hoping I just got old stock.

@Rta108 Can’t agree more about the rules. Look at some of my replies above. Looks like you got old stock to me. I got 3 sets of rules and gave up letting them get them right. I took a small file to the holes just to clean the crud out. Then I took a Dremel with sand paper to the surface to flatten up the chamfers that had rolled over material. They look nasty but produce very accurate holes now.

Mike