Author Topic: VOID WARRANTY? RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700  (Read 2775 times)

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Offline pdeboer2

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In searching the internet for jigs, I've come across a forum post describing that someone was denied warranty service because they used the RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700 from Seneca Woodworking. It was an older post, and I've lost it now, but I was wondering if anyone has had any experience with this. I've emailed Festool 3 times and can't get a straight answer.

I have a 700 and would love to use it with the 500's cutters, but don't want to void my warranty

Link to the adapter: https://www.senecawoodworking.com/products/rts-500-cutter-adapter-for-festool-df700

Thanks,

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Offline Alex

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Re: VOID WARRANTY? RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2019, 03:05 PM »
It is well known here on the forum Festool will void the warranty for using 3rd party accessories. It is not a rule set in stone, but they can if they want to.

In case of the Seneca adapter, it could change the forces that work on the machine, so you go beyond the factory specs the tool was designed for.

But then again, if you don't tell Festool you're using the 3rd party accessory, how will they ever know?

Of course now you've posted here they will be looking out for a P. De Boer claiming warranty on his DF700.  [wink]

Offline rvieceli

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Re: VOID WARRANTY? RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2019, 03:10 PM »
What Alex said.  [big grin]

If I recall correctly, the incident you are referring was in the UK and the customer sent in the 700 for repair with the Seneca adapter still installed on the machine. Most manufacturers have a rich history and tradition of denying warranty repairs when third party components are installed.

Ron

Offline Svar

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Re: VOID WARRANTY? RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2019, 03:11 PM »
You don't put extra stress on the machine using RTS-500. The risk here is accidentally using deep (>30 mm) setting with a small diameter (DF500) bit and plunging wider shank into the wood. This should void warranty and rightly so.

Offline ChuckM

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Re: VOID WARRANTY? RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2019, 03:11 PM »
No worries. If confronted, just tell them you are in fact pdeboer1 or pdeboer3. [tongue]
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 03:15 PM by ChuckM »

Offline TinyShop

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Re: VOID WARRANTY? RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2019, 03:15 PM »
Actually, based on a discussion from a couple of years ago elsewhere on this forum, it's against the law (in the U.S.) for a manufacturer to deny a warranty claim based on the customer using a third parrty accessory. Spend a little time searching the forum and you will find the relevant discussion.
ETS 150/5 EQ (DE) [po], TS 75 EQ (DE) [po], OF 1400 EQ-F (DE) [n], CXS (DE) [n], CMS-GE [DE] [po], CMS TS 75 (DE) [n], LA-CS 50/CMS (DE) [po], VB-CMS (DE) [n], MFT/3 (CZ) [n], DF 700 EQ w/Seneca Small Mortise Kit (DE) [po], FEIN Multimaster 350 QSL (DE) [n], Bosch 1274DVS w/dust collection, sanding frame,  stand & fence (CH) [n], BOSCH 1590EVS w/dust collection (CH) [n], CS Unitec CS 1445 HEPA extractor <re-branded Starmix ISP 1435 H> (DE) [n], CT SYS (DE) [po], Milwaukee 0302-20 (US) [n], Two (2) Porter Cable 862 (TW) [n], Porter Cable 447 (US) [n], Zyliss Vise (CH) [n], Hitachi C 8FB (JP) [h]

[po] pre-owned   [n] new   [h] heirloom   (XX) country of origin

Offline Svar

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Re: VOID WARRANTY? RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2019, 03:21 PM »
it's against the law (in the U.S.) for a manufacturer to deny a warranty claim based on the customer using a third parrty accessory.
I'm sure its more nuanced than that. One could devise something truly damaging, call it an "accessory" and stick the tool manufacturer with the bill.

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: VOID WARRANTY? RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2019, 03:53 PM »
I am sure that Festool’s legal counsel has helped them author their warranties and that they feel on solid ground if they do indeed decide not cover a warranty repair if the repair is neccisitated by the use of a non-Festool accessory.

Peter

Offline Gregor

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Re: VOID WARRANTY? RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2019, 04:40 PM »
not cover a warranty repair if the repair is neccisitated by the use of a non-Festool accessory.
That's the point. Using an accessory that lead to breaking the tool voiding warranty is perfectly reasonable.

But as companies decided that denying warranty because the user used a 3rd party accessory (regardless of that being the cause of the defect) was a general good idea to spare them costs... this particular law was needed to keep them somewhat honest (or less evil, depending on perspective).

So while Festool could try to claim that the seneca adapter caused the tool to malfunction they are should better be able to prove this in court, should someone with enough money for a good lawyer decide to call them on this assertion.

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: VOID WARRANTY? RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2019, 07:02 PM »
It is well known here on the forum Festool will void the warranty for using 3rd party accessories. It is not a rule set in stone, but they can if they want to.

This has already been covered. It is a violation of the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act for a manufacturer to void a warranty solely on the basis of aftermarket accessories, unless those accessories can be shown to have caused the damage.

In case of the Seneca adapter, it could change the forces that work on the machine, so you go beyond the factory specs the tool was designed for.

Nope. The RTS-500 adapter does not alter the forces on the drivetrain in a negative manner. Quite the opposite, because it is intended to allow the DF700 to use the smaller diameter DF500 cutters, it actually reduces the forces and stress on the DF700 drivetrain.


Offline TinyShop

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Re: VOID WARRANTY? RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2019, 07:10 PM »
That's it - thanks @Rick Christopherson!
ETS 150/5 EQ (DE) [po], TS 75 EQ (DE) [po], OF 1400 EQ-F (DE) [n], CXS (DE) [n], CMS-GE [DE] [po], CMS TS 75 (DE) [n], LA-CS 50/CMS (DE) [po], VB-CMS (DE) [n], MFT/3 (CZ) [n], DF 700 EQ w/Seneca Small Mortise Kit (DE) [po], FEIN Multimaster 350 QSL (DE) [n], Bosch 1274DVS w/dust collection, sanding frame,  stand & fence (CH) [n], BOSCH 1590EVS w/dust collection (CH) [n], CS Unitec CS 1445 HEPA extractor <re-branded Starmix ISP 1435 H> (DE) [n], CT SYS (DE) [po], Milwaukee 0302-20 (US) [n], Two (2) Porter Cable 862 (TW) [n], Porter Cable 447 (US) [n], Zyliss Vise (CH) [n], Hitachi C 8FB (JP) [h]

[po] pre-owned   [n] new   [h] heirloom   (XX) country of origin

Offline Svar

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Re: VOID WARRANTY? RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2019, 07:19 PM »
If you put a 6 mm bit into DF700 with RTS-500 adapter, set the depth to say 45 mm, and for obvious reasons break the machine, the warranty will be voided and Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act will not apply.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 07:22 PM by Svar »

Offline greg mann

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Re: VOID WARRANTY? RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2019, 07:38 PM »
This is a situation where both Rick and Svar can be correct. A smaller cutter will not stress
the machine and it would be difficult to argue against that. Misusing the same smaller cutter is a different matter.

This could conceivably be comparable to a router where using a non-Festool router bit in a 1010 should not and would not void the warranty. Putting a reducing sleeve in a 2200 and using a smaller bit would also not be a problem, but come up with some way to put a 3 inch panel raiser with a half inch shank in a 1010 and you got a problem.
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: VOID WARRANTY? RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2019, 07:46 PM »
At at the end of the day in the case of a tool failure that may have had an accessory in use, the decisions to be made are far outside of this forum and everyone's analysis and commentary here will be meaningless - including mine.

Peter

Here is the official warranty statement from Festool USA that covers items here:

"Conditions of the SERVICE ALL INCLUSIVE® Limited Warranty are as follows:

This warranty applies for 3 years from the date of original retail purchase. Proof of purchase is required. This warranty is void if the tool is not used, operated, repaired and maintained in accordance with the tool's instruction manual.

Excluded from this warranty's coverage are:

Accessories and/or attachments, including, but not limited to, saw blades, drill bits, router bits, sanding discs and apparel
Tools purchased from outside of the U.S. or Canada
Repairs or replacements not performed by an authorized Festool Service Center, outside of routine maintenance as set forth in the instruction manual
Parts or components not supplied by Festool or that have been modified
Damage caused by misuse, abuse, accident, impact, abnormal wear and tear, improper storage and/or exposure to the elements, or neglect
Normal adjustments and recommended maintenance as set forth in the tool's instruction manual
Damage from the operation of the tool at a voltage or frequency different from the tool's rating, including the use of transformers
Damage resulting from the use of any non-FESTOOL accessories or attachments
Should any failure covered by this Limited Warranty occur, the purchaser must contact Festool through our website, www.festoolusa.com/sai or call 888-337-8600 for authorization and shipping information. Festool, in its sole discretion, may elect to repair, replace or refund the purchase price of any tool covered by this Limited Warranty that is found to be defective, at no cost to the purchaser. Warranty returns will be processed by Festool according to normal work flow and availability of replacement parts and components. Festool will issue a prepaid shipping label for return of the tool to the Festool Service Center and will also return the repaired tool freight prepaid, if the repair or replacement is covered under this Limited Warranty.

FESTOOL SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANY CONSEQUENTIAL, INCIDENTAL OR SPECIAL DAMAGES REGARDLESS OF THE THEORY OF LAW ON WHICH THE CLAIM IS BASED. ALL WARRANTIES IMPLIED BY STATE LAW, INCLUDING THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE HEREBY LIMITED TO THE DURATION OF THREE YEARS.

SOME STATES IN THE U.S. AND SOME CANADIAN PROVINCES DO NOT ALLOW EXCLUSIONS/LIMITATIONS OF INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES AND/OR LIMITATIONS ON HOW LONG AN IMPLIED WARRANTY LASTS, SO THE ABOVE LIMITATION MAY NOT APPLY TO YOU. THIS WARRANTY GIVES YOU SPECIFIC LEGAL RIGHTS, AND YOU MAY ALSO HAVE OTHER RIGHTS THAT VARY FROM STATE TO STATE IN THE U.S. AND FROM PROVINCE TO PROVINCE IN CANADA.

With the exception of any warranties implied by state or province law as limited above, the foregoing limited warranty is exclusive and in lieu of all other warranties, guarantees, agreements, and similar obligations of Festool. No agent, representative, distributor, dealer, or employee of Festool has the authority to increase or otherwise modify the obligations or limitations of this warranty."

Offline Svar

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Re: VOID WARRANTY? RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2019, 07:51 PM »
This is a situation where both Rick and Svar can be correct. A smaller cutter will not stress
the machine and it would be difficult to argue against that. Misusing the same smaller cutter is a different matter.
From the point of view of Seneca it's misuse, for Festool it's failure caused by the accessory.
RTS-500 could have been made 40 mm shorter (if there is room for it), such that you can't plunge DF500 bits deeper than 30 mm.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 08:04 PM by Svar »

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: VOID WARRANTY? RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2019, 08:41 PM »
The Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act is something that anyone who buys objects in the US should understand. It's very powerful law.  If you compare it to Festools Warranty statements you will find areas where Festool is saying things that the Act says "no no no" too.  In general the issue is lack of enforcement, and from time to time the government wakes up and sends some warnings out to companies who have began to forget about the Act.  "warranty void is sticker broke" is something just in the last year or so they went after a bunch of companies about.

Trying to use the Act to support your claim can be a real issue. You may be technically correct (the best kind of correct), but you as an individual don't have much of a means to enforce your being correct unless you got money, lawyers and want to prove a point. This is what happens in a lot of cases, a company angers the wrong person and a court case happens.

When it comes to 3rd part parts. The prime concept in the act is that if you replace a part in something with a perfectly equivalent part then they can't void the warranty.  So say the alternator on your VW dies.  You don't have to go to VW dealer and have them replace it, nor do you have to buy the VW replacement part.  You can go to the autoparts store and buy what they sell you that has been affirmed to be an equivalent and undergone some checks by the 3rd party alternator company to be a suitable replacement part.  This will not void warranty.  But if you go into the autoparts store and buy the Alternator for a Ford F-650 and jam it in there, modify some stuff, etc to make it happen, then yes, VW could void your warranty.   So there is a grey area to it, when have you gone too far or not made a reasonable effort.

For add on parts, that is even more grey area, and something that the aftermarket parts industry has had to deal with several times. In the end, a lot of it comes down to the manufacture (say VW) has to show that adding said accessory part (say a giant wing on the trunk), in some way caused the issue the vehicle is having (say the alternator failed).  You can come up with "a way" for almost anything, but it would be hard for their claim to stand. But if you put a giant wing on, and then the trunk latch, hinge failed, or it rusted thru where you drilled holes, their claim is valid.

So with something like this adapter, it falls solidly in the grey area.  It's an add on, not a replacement part. So that shifts things in Festools favor, but they still have to show it is somehow more damaging than not using it. I would  need to see more to understand, and you can probably start going down things like "balance of shaft" and so forth to make a case it caused the issue.  I won't say who would be right on this particular one. Keep in mind the word of the 3rd party seller is not the best one to base things on.

As mentioned though, the real answer is never tell Festool you used the adapter, do not mention it, certainly don't contact them and ask, and never send it in with the adapter.  As long as you never show what you did, they would have no basis to know what you did.  You don't return the rental/hire car back and tell them about your track day with it, or the air you got over the speed bump, or the sounds it makes at red line, you turn it in, walk away, and it's up to them to ever show you did something to it.

The spirit in of the Act is largely about good faith and being decent.  If you know you did something you shouldn't have with a product, don't go trying to get them to fix it for free, admit you messed up. And at the same time if the product failed and maybe they are just beyond the warranty or maybe was an accidentally mistake by the owner, do a solid and fix it even though you don't have to and or don't try going to void the warranty when the person make some solid proper attempts at fixing something.


Online Birdhunter

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Re: VOID WARRANTY? RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2019, 08:33 AM »
I guess I am a bit old fashioned. If I break a tool using it in the wrong fashion (extender for example) I will not lie to the manufacturer to save a few bucks on repair. My honor is far more important to me.
Birdhunter

Offline greg mann

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Re: VOID WARRANTY? RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2019, 08:54 AM »
I guess I am a bit old fashioned. If I break a tool using it in the wrong fashion (extender for example) I will not lie to the manufacturer to save a few bucks on repair. My honor is far more important to me.

This. And the last paragraph above it are the essence of the matter. It is unclear to me what the original failure mode was to the machine in question. Say, for example, the trigger switch failed and you sent the machine in repair with the adapter on it. It would be perfectly reasonable for the user to expect the switch to be fixed, and perfectly reasonable for Festiol to include a note that the use of the adapter is not approved and could void a warranty if it was determined its use contributed to a failure. As stated above, a user should take responsibility for how the use or misuse a tool. It is all about good faith both ways.
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline jobsworth

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Re: VOID WARRANTY? RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2019, 11:18 AM »
im with Greg and Birdhunter. I find honesty is the best policy.

If read that read policy correctly, the after market tool must not BE THE CAUSE for the failure.
So depending on the type of damage the OP has will determine wether the after market accessory cause it.

If it did cause it, then man up take the hit and go on.

Offline Mario Turcot

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Re: VOID WARRANTY? RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2019, 09:26 AM »
I have been waiting a long long time to quote @Alex and today he opened the door and a barn door with that  [eek]

But then again, if you don't tell Festool you're using the 3rd party accessory, how will they ever know?

By leaving the third part accessory attached to the tool when sending for repair  [tongue]

P.S. Alex, I seriously thank you for your thoughtful insight on questions people have on the FOG.
Mario

Offline Alex

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Re: VOID WARRANTY? RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2019, 06:37 AM »
P.S. Alex, I seriously thank you for your thoughtful insight on questions people have on the FOG.

And I am honoured to quote you also, you're welcome, Mario.  [smile]

Offline greg mann

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Re: VOID WARRANTY? RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2019, 09:43 AM »
Alex has a knack to get his thought out in about twenty words when many of us use two hundred. What makes it more humbling is that I assume English isn’t his native language.  [not worthy]
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline ChuckM

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Re: VOID WARRANTY? RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2019, 10:41 AM »
Everyone lives by their own code of ethics. Your money, your call.

I ran a yellow light, but received one for running red. Fought it in court and won. My daughter got three speed tickets in a row over two weeks (after a new speed limit sign (30 kph) was posted without warning on a section of road she passed to work year after year), and we paid all of them -- no questions asked. Lesson learned (after the tickets arrived in the mail [eek]), no more tickets.

Festool - If I broke, I cry. Pinching it on Festool for a free ride? Like Birdhunter's, not my choice. Old fashioned? So be it. Woodworking is just a hobby for me, and I can afford a couple of hundred dollars out without sweating. For the record, I don't own a DF700
« Last Edit: March 30, 2019, 11:30 AM by ChuckM »

Offline jobsworth

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Re: VOID WARRANTY? RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2019, 11:35 AM »
@ChuckM

+1

couldnt of said better myself.

Offline Koamolly

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Re: VOID WARRANTY? RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2019, 12:41 PM »
I’d like to think my integrity level is on the high side but if I’m driving and notice I’m exceeding the speed limit, I don’t turn myself in.

If there are regions in the world that require warranties to be honored even if aftermarket accessories are used and Festool chooses to sell in those regions they are acknowledging aftermarket accessories might not be a problem.  They shouldn't have it both ways and one shouldn’t be penalized for where one lives. 

If an aftermarket accessory caused damage, it should be apparent without the accessory attached.  And, if it’s left attached, it shouldn’t be automatically assumed to be the cause and used by Festool to deny warranty coverage.



Offline Alex

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Re: VOID WARRANTY? RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2019, 01:49 PM »
I think that as a multi-million dollar company you should be flexible with warranty repairs and not make too much fuzz about it.

Let's face it, from all the tools sold only a fraction returns for repair over its lifetime and for the company that cost is not that big compared to their sales revenue. For a private person a sudden repair could cut deep in his budget.

Now if you get a drill back with a 4 inch nail through its hull, fine, claim abuse to deny warranty, but if you send a tool in with a 3rd party accessory attached I find it rather petty to deny warranty on such basis. Especially because you should be able to use 3rd party accessories in any tool if they are made for it.

Could DeWalt force you to use only DeWalt bits in their drills? Of course not. So why would it be OK when it's a Domino?

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: VOID WARRANTY? RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2019, 02:32 PM »
I think that as a multi-million dollar company you should be flexible with warranty repairs and not make too much fuzz about it.

Let's face it, from all the tools sold only a fraction returns for repair over its lifetime and for the company that cost is not that big compared to their sales revenue. For a private person a sudden repair could cut deep in his budget.

Now if you get a drill back with a 4 inch nail through its hull, fine, claim abuse to deny warranty, but if you send a tool in with a 3rd party accessory attached I find it rather petty to deny warranty on such basis. Especially because you should be able to use 3rd party accessories in any tool if they are made for it.

Could DeWalt force you to use only DeWalt bits in their drills? Of course not. So why would it be OK when it's a Domino?

Alex,  Festool isn't making a big fuss about it.  The warranty laws that have been quoted here and the actual Festool limited warranty are all about adhering to the law which is primarily about needing to put things in writing so that the consumer has the opportunity to read.  Whether or not they do read is outside of the realm of the law.

But, I would offer politely that it would be hard for manufacturers to bring a tool to market and then anticipate whatever someone else would come up for it and then automatically be required to cover a repair necessitated by effects of that other thing.  In a perfect world I would hope that the manufacturers of those third party items - would have taken the time and effort to fully test their items long term on whatever tools they were designed for - AND then warrant that their item would not cause damage to the tools.

Peter

Offline Alex

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Re: VOID WARRANTY? RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2019, 05:01 PM »
Peter, didn't this issue came to fruition when somebody posted here that Festool refused a warranty repair on his Domino because he had left a 3rd party cutter on when he send it in? Not sure it was the RTS or another cutter, but it's not just theory.

As for 3rd party items, I don't think there are even that much possibilities for the Domino as there are for some other tools like drills, jigsaws or angle grinders. A good tool manufacturer designs its tools with a certain sturdyness to allow for variations in its intended use. Certainly Festool always claims to have the most robust tools on the market. 

Offline rvieceli

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Offline Peter Halle

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Re: VOID WARRANTY? RTS-500 Cutter Adapter for Festool Domino DF 700
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2019, 06:04 PM »
What Festool doesn't affect me at all.  I was following along with this thread which was about a guy asking a question about whether or not using the Seneca adaptors on the DF700 could void the warranty.  I have just tried to point out that there is the possibility based on what the warranty says.  I posted what the warranty said here in NA.  I didn't write that.

Others have gotten into the debate on whether it would be right or wrong.  Others have also posted their interpretations of the law that they have done a Google search on.

I chose to use what I felt were the most conservative answers.

I'll stand by my beliefs and statements that using third party accessories on a Festool product might cause warranty issues if that tool has an issue and has to be sent in for service.

Everyone can do as they choose.

Peter