Having trouble with your Festool power tool? Well, we're here to help you. Before posting to the forum, give us a chance to diagnose and resolve your issue. In the U.S. and Canada, call us toll-free at 888-337-8600 on Monday-Friday between 8a-5p EST or contact us via email at service@festoolusa.com. For other countries, please visit http://www.festool.com for contact information for your local Festool service department.

Author Topic: New Domino XL Alignment Issue  (Read 4778 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« on: June 19, 2019, 10:30 AM »
I bought my Domino XL back in 2016 along with many other Festool tools and have only recently had the need to use it.  As it turns out, I'm unable to use the tool when I finally need it because of misalignment.  I sent the tool back to Festool with a note describing the issue and received it back with a note saying it was fine.  I retested the machine, have the same issue, and personally don't consider this the quality one should expect from a $1,400 machine.  I don't like the idea of having to contort the wood to fit together whenever using the tool which then requires the amount of sanding which could damage thin plywood veneer.  Am I being to much of a perfectionist?  Would you consider the amount of skew below acceptable or "in spec"?

Below is an image of a single tenon joining two pieces of 10-12" plywood.

299395-0

FWIW - I've completely square plywood and a completely flat MFT/3 table for reference.  I've used spacers and clamps to ensure the wood is hanging off the edge of the table so as not to interfere with the Domino while keep everything flat.  I've held the front down firmly, plunged fast/slow, using different sized bits, and even tried using my back hand to twist to the left while plunging to avoid the higher Left skew all with the same result.  Additionally, I've placed the Domino flat on the table, to test whether the bit is aligned with the base plate, and plunged into the wood with the same result seen below.  While it doesn't seem like much, the doubled error, results in the fit seen above.

299399-1
299403-2

As another test, I've held the Domino upside down, placed a 4' woodpeckers rule centered on the bottom of the Domino base plate going side to side and another across the motor arm to get a better visual of how "aligned" the motor is with the base plate.  By doing this, I can clearly see the rule on the motor slanting up to the Left in comparison to the base plate rule which is exactly how it's cutting.  I haven't taken any measurements but could to find the exact angle it's off if it's of any value.

All that said, I'm ready to remove the two outer screws, motor, check if there's a bur/shaving, or anything I can do to get the motor to sit better in the housing so it's closer to parallel with the base plate but am hesitant since I'm not sure whether motor brushes/armatures etc. will come flying out.  Has anybody any experience removing this motor and can it be done without destroying the tool?  Or do I just live with the skew and get over it?

299397-3
« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 12:46 PM by Bugsysiegals »

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline rmhinden

  • Posts: 187
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2019, 12:54 PM »
I bought my Domino XL back in 2016 along with many other Festool tools and have only recently had the need to use it.  As it turns out, I'm unable to use the tool when I finally need it because of misalignment.  I sent the tool back to Festool with a note describing the issue and received it back with a note saying it was fine.  I retested the machine, have the same issue, and personally don't consider this the quality one should expect from a $1,400 machine.  I don't like the idea of having to contort the wood to fit together whenever using the tool which then requires the amount of sanding which could damage thin plywood veneer.  Am I being to much of a perfectionist?  Would you consider the amount of skew below acceptable or "in spec"?

No that is not acceptable.  Something is way off, the two boards should be exactly flat.

I see in the background of the first picture, it looks like you are using a Seneca plate.   Double check that it is installed flat on the machine.  Might also be good to test it again without the Seneca plate.

In your other pictures, I don't understand why you are making the mortices so close to the edge.  Better if they are centered in the board.

Hope this is helpful.

Bob

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1664
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2019, 01:47 PM »
I think he was just trying to illustrate how the mortise looks when the base of the machine is flat on the table (pics 2 and 3).  In those pictures it appears acceptable, however, in the picture of the two boards (pic 1), clearly it's not (and I'm wondering if those mortises with the two boards were made with the fence as a reference surface rather than the base)?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 03:37 PM by RKA »
-Raj

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1168
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2019, 02:01 PM »
In the first photo, if the table was flat, the board closer to the camera definitely was not dead flat. There is no image of the second board (the one away from the camera) placed by itself on the table, so it is impossible to tell if it was flat.

The center mortise shown is slightly skewed. Check if the fence is square (perpendicular) as well as parallel to base.

The machine should not produce mis-aligned mortises to the extent seen in the first photo.

« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 02:13 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 692
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2019, 02:07 PM »
Definitely not acceptable, and defeats the object of such a machine.
It could as mentioned, be linked with the plate. If Festool tested it, and said it was fine, they obviously wouldn’t have tested with the plate.

Or is it the same story used in standard form?

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1905
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2019, 02:10 PM »
If you really are using a third party jig like the Seneca plate uninstall it and test the XL without it. I doubt there is anything wrong with the jig. However, I found the XL a little more complicated to use than the Domino 500; at least different. Since I don't use my XL as much as the 500 I find that I need to reread the instructions each time so I know the differences between the two.

Given the problem you show in the picture, I think it is more likely that the problem is something else than the XL itself.

Making slots so close to the surface does create problems sometimes and there is always a strength issue and possible break out or bulge on the surface.

I wouldn't remove anything that exposes the brushes or motor. The problem you show is not likely due to anything that could be remedied by doing that. It's likely a much simpler resolution, like something in technique. I know I've periodically has problems and they have always been due to me not the machine.

I would say that the problem is possibly how the tool was resting on the fence when making the cuts; probably not flat.

The other possibility is that the orientation of the boards isn't correct meaning that, when assembling you flipped the faces. Just a suggestion; not meant to indicate anything about you. I've done it accidentally myself.
Randy

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2019, 02:27 PM »

No that is not acceptable.  Something is way off, the two boards should be exactly flat.

I see in the background of the first picture, it looks like you are using a Seneca plate.   Double check that it is installed flat on the machine.  Might also be good to test it again without the Seneca plate.

In your other pictures, I don't understand why you are making the mortices so close to the edge.  Better if they are centered in the board.

Hope this is helpful.

Bob

Thanks Bob! 

The plunges I made which are close to the edge were made by setting the XL 700 flat on the MFT/3 in order to remove the fence/plate variables and see whether the bit is aligned with the base plate itself.  I'll perform this exercise again showing the hole and an assembly to help visualize how much the slight error skews the wood.

That said, I do have the Seneca Small Mortising Kit and the previous image with assembled Domino joint was used with it.  Thanks for pointing this out as I'd forgotten about it ... I'll perform the process again with the stock fence in order to remove yet another variable.

Unfortunately I do not have any stock XL 700 bits and have only the Seneca adapter and smaller bits.  I've rolled the adapter across my table, cannot see anything out of center visually, and can't conceive how even if it was wobbly that it would produce tight flat cuts rather than a loose fit cut.  If you agree then I can at least trust that piece and move forward with more tests??

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2019, 02:27 PM »
I think he was just trying to illustrate how the mortise looks when the base of the machine is flat on the table.  In those pictures it appears acceptable, however, in the picture of the two boards, clearly it's not (and I'm wondering if those mortises with the two boards were made with the fence as a reference surface rather than the base)?

Correct, they were made with the Seneca fence ... I will remove and use the stock fence to remove this variable.

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2019, 02:29 PM »
In the first photo, if the table was flat, the board closer to the camera definitely was not dead flat. There is no image of the second board (the one away from the camera) placed by itself on the table, so it is impossible to tell if it was flat.

The center mortise shown is slightly skewed. Check if the fence is square (perpendicular) as well as parallel to base.

The machine should not produce mis-aligned mortises to the extent seen in the first photo.

The board in the image doesn't appear flat on the Left because when joined with the back board creates an "X" which is lifting the Left into the air.  I'll perform some additional testing ... thanks for the input!

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2019, 02:34 PM »
If you really are using a third party jig like the Seneca plate uninstall it and test the XL without it. I doubt there is anything wrong with the jig. However, I found the XL a little more complicated to use than the Domino 500; at least different. Since I don't use my XL as much as the 500 I find that I need to reread the instructions each time so I know the differences between the two.

Given the problem you show in the picture, I think it is more likely that the problem is something else than the XL itself.

Making slots so close to the surface does create problems sometimes and there is always a strength issue and possible break out or bulge on the surface.

I wouldn't remove anything that exposes the brushes or motor. The problem you show is not likely due to anything that could be remedied by doing that. It's likely a much simpler resolution, like something in technique. I know I've periodically has problems and they have always been due to me not the machine.

I would say that the problem is possibly how the tool was resting on the fence when making the cuts; probably not flat.

The other possibility is that the orientation of the boards isn't correct meaning that, when assembling you flipped the faces. Just a suggestion; not meant to indicate anything about you. I've done it accidentally myself.

I've actually folded a sticky note in half twice (.4 mm), wedged it between the adapter plate and stock fence on the Right side, twisted the rear of the machine counter clockwise while plunging, and still had slight skewing of the wood.  To ensure it's not me, I'm going to remove the plate, and do one free hand and another with me clamping the wood to the fence to ensure I cannot twist the machine.  As far as the faces are concerned, I draw a line across the two joining faces, open the pieces so the lines face me, plunge the lines, and reassemble as they were originally. 

Offline rmhinden

  • Posts: 187
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2019, 03:41 PM »
Unfortunately I do not have any stock XL 700 bits and have only the Seneca adapter and smaller bits.  I've rolled the adapter across my table, cannot see anything out of center visually, and can't conceive how even if it was wobbly that it would produce tight flat cuts rather than a loose fit cut.  If you agree then I can at least trust that piece and move forward with more tests??

I tend to agree, but if it's feasible, I suggest you pick up a stock XL bit and try with that.   That will tell you if it's the basic machine, or some error in the Seneca adapters (plate or bit adapter).

I have an XL and the Seneca kit and have never seen this problem.   The only times I have had problems, is when I am not careful to have the XL aligned with the wood.   I can't blame the machine for that :-)

Bob

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 2606
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2019, 05:10 PM »
My XL developed the slanted mortise problem after several years of use.

I sent it to Festool along with a sample of two small boards joined at one end with one joint made with the XL. The two small boards clearly showed the misalignment.

The tool was returned along with the same two small boards joined by the adjusted XL. The alignment was perfect.  When I used the XL, the mortises were not as perfect as the ones done by Festool service, but much better than before the service.

So, the tool needed adjustment AND the Festool tech had better technique than I did.

I don't think this slanted mortise problem is rare with the XL. I have a much older 500 and it still cuts perfect mortises. My guess is that the torque exerted by the XL can, over time, skew the alignment enough to cause the slanted mortises.
Birdhunter

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2019, 06:59 PM »
I removed the Seneca hardware except for the bit adapter.  I cut brand new pieces, clamped to the MFT, with the fence raised up and the Domino push firmly to the MFT, assembled, and same old song and dance.  As you can see, everything is parallel, flush, etc., and there shouldn't be any user error or machine variables causing this.  Shouldn't the bit be fairly parallel with the base plate?

299423-0
299425-1
299427-2
299429-3
299431-4
299433-5

Disregard the hole on the Right, when I opened the mating faces to plunge, I'd cut the board on the Left forgetting it needed to be cut on the Right.

299435-6
« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 07:44 PM by Bugsysiegals »

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2019, 07:21 PM »
This time I used the Fence and watched while plunging ensuring the Left side never lifted up off the wood.  I've the same issue whether using the base plate or fence and I'd imagine the holes would clearly show if I had a bent bit or adapter.

I was really hoping there was some kind of issue on my end but the more I eliminate variables, test, and produce this same garbage, the more I'm upset about this whole ordeal ... >:(

299437-0
299439-1
« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 07:47 PM by Bugsysiegals »

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1168
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2019, 08:06 PM »
Your photos don't show the fence set-up of your machine. The mortise on the right is much lower than the one on the left (last photo) which is possible only if the fence drifted during mortising. Minor cutting variations would not have produced huge difference in the height of the mortises from the top.

What fence height did you set? Was it locked tight? Could you show a photo of the machine with the fence set in place?

« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 08:08 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2019, 08:56 PM »
The hole you're referring to which is lower is from the last picture in post #12 which was placed on the wrong side accidentally when using the base plate only.  To better illustrate this, I've added the photo below.

299441-0

To answer your question, per all the threads I’ve exhaustively read, I left the fence up, lowered gently to 20mm stop, tightened the height, then folded the fence down, and tightened the fence.  Not sure if this is what you're after but here's a pic of the fence set into place.

299443-1

299445-2

299447-3



« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 10:55 PM by Bugsysiegals »

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1905
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2019, 11:30 PM »
With the tool sitting on the MFT as in the last pictures you included, have you measured the height of the fence on both sides to see if they match? The picture makes it look as if one side is higher off the MFT than the other, but it could just be the angle. Sorry if this is something you already did but it's getting a little hard to sift through the various posts to see what has been done or not.
Randy

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2019, 08:58 AM »
With the tool sitting on the MFT as in the last pictures you included, have you measured the height of the fence on both sides to see if they match? The picture makes it look as if one side is higher off the MFT than the other, but it could just be the angle. Sorry if this is something you already did but it's getting a little hard to sift through the various posts to see what has been done or not.

I placed the XL on my SawStop table, completely flat, no rocking, brought the fence to the edge of the table, measured, reset the fence as described in posts above, and measured again with same results ... 34.90 mm on the Left and 34.80 on the Right.

299449-0

299451-1

This would indicate the Left has more gap than the Right which would bring the Left side down when pressed to the wood; however, the Left side is actually cutting higher than the Right. In addition, as stated previously, I added a sticky note folded in half twice (.4 mm) as a shim on the Right to further bring down the Left side. It helped but still wasn’t flat and won’t help when using the tool without the fence when plunging something like a partition in a cabinet.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 09:53 AM by Bugsysiegals »

Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 2606
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2019, 09:38 AM »
I did all the measurements being described when my XL was cutting slanted mortises. My fence aligned perfectly. My technique was very good (perhaps not perfect).

The problem was cured by a quick trip to Festool service.  I don't know what the technicians fixed, but the problem went away.

My guess is that the orientation of the cutter oscillation to the base gets thrown off over time.
Birdhunter

Offline RobS888

  • Posts: 5
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2019, 09:49 AM »
I have a similar problem as the OP, but Festool (to my surprise) says if it doesn't happen when using the base it is my fault... wood issues or technique. Mine is pretty bad with the stock 8mm cutter, a little less so with the 10mm cutter. I hold it down firmly on the wood, I push it with my thumb on the plug and my hand underneath the rear. I got the small mortising kit as well, but found the plate was off a bit so I installed it upside down to try balance out the effect. it reduces it, but I still have to sand 3 1/2 trim pieces attached end to end.

it is so consistent that I don't think it is technique. I did find when I slid a straight edge along the fence there was a slight burr around one of the triangular holes on the right side. Sanding that helped a little as well.

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2019, 10:13 AM »
I did all the measurements being described when my XL was cutting slanted mortises. My fence aligned perfectly. My technique was very good (perhaps not perfect).

The problem was cured by a quick trip to Festool service.  I don't know what the technicians fixed, but the problem went away.

My guess is that the orientation of the cutter oscillation to the base gets thrown off over time.

The problem is this is a brand new tool which has only been used to cut sample pieces as practice before I begin using the tool for actual cabinets and destroying them.  When I exhausted all suggested options from similar threads and ruled out the possibility of user error or Seneca attachment, I sent it to Festool service who sent it back saying it's good yet it's not.

Offline RobS888

  • Posts: 5
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2019, 10:28 AM »
I'm pretty disappointed in the tool and the response I got from support.

I've seen many videos, even on Festool's web site where it seems align, plunge and good to go, but not in my case at all.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 11:51 AM by RobS888 »

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2019, 10:40 AM »
I've invested over $5,000 in Festool tools/accessories as I believe in using quality tools but this particular tool has left me feeling like I've purchased a re branded Harbor Freight tool.  I understand nothing is perfect and defects make it out the door but for a product of this cost I would NEVER expect it to be returned after service still having the same issue.

For those of you with a good working tool ... does the bit align with the base and produce near perfect joints when using it on a flat surface like I've demonstrated?  I ask this because in my humble opinion, this method is the most effective at removing the user error variable and best showing whether the tool is properly calibrated.

Since Festool doesn't want to acknowledge the tool isn't calibrated and I'm not going to use the tool as-is, does anybody know where I can find a diagram to confirm parts aren't going to fall out when I remove the motor?

Offline Mike Goetzke

  • Posts: 292
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2019, 10:56 AM »
@Bugsysiegals

I'm a hobbyist so don't use my XL that often but do not have the issues you have experienced at all. Only thing I have to remember is when using the Seneca plates I need to shim the workpiece or clamp it over the edge of the work table to assure the fence is in contact with the wood.

Sounds like there is something seriously wrong with your jointer. Maybe someone from the FOG with an XL is near you and you get together to figure this out?

Mike

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1664
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2019, 11:04 AM »
0.1mm on the fence isn't bad.  I would try to get someone from Festool service on the phone and explain what you've done.  Get the fence out of the picture and emphasize you've clamped the machine and work piece to a table, plunged two pieces and when joined they are out 1/4" X distance from the floating tenon.  It does appear the side to side movement of the bit is not parallel to the base.
 Ask them to reproduce that in the shop and see if it comes out that badly. 
-Raj

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1905
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2019, 11:10 AM »
I'm not sure what you mean by "the base". My use has always referenced off the fence itself.

When placing Dominos on the edge of a board for glue-up of several to make a wider board, I reference the cut off the fence in its "standard" position. I have not had a problem with either the 500 or XL, but I admit I haven't used the XL nearly as much as the 500.

I have used it in the vertical position to set Dominos in the middle of a board. Again, that is essentially referencing off the fence.

When joining boards at 90 degree angles, the Domino which goes into the face of the board is also reference off the fence.

I own a Woodpecker Offset Base and sometimes use that because it allows me to be more sure that the Domino  is solidly anchored while cutting the mortises.

So, I'd have to say that I don't reference any cuts off the base (if I understand what you're asking).

I have always dealt with Festool just like I deal with any other company although I've had only one instance of a situation where I didn't immediately get satisfaction. I would keep at them until you get a resolution that you are satisfied with. Any company is obligated to do that whether they acknowledge it or not.

One thing you can do is to post in the Ask Festool section of the FOG and specifically ask that the Festool rep get your problem resolved. I believe it's still Tyler although sometimes it's unclear who is answering questions.

It's a little difficult to identify with your situation because I've never really had a serious problem (one minor one) that wasn't resolved either through a tool return within 30 days  or by a Festool rep.
Randy

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1168
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2019, 11:12 AM »
The mystery to all this is that the machine was found to be working well by the technician, assuming he or she was well aware of what the complaint was.

I tend to agree that it is not a technique issue.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 11:14 AM by ChuckM »

Offline Joe Felchlin

  • Posts: 179
  • Just another day in paradise - Livin’ the dream!
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2019, 11:20 AM »
Sorry to hear about your problems.
The calibration/alignment issues of the Dominos -
Has been a KNOWN PROBLEM by Festool for 10+ years -
Detailed repeatedly in the FOG. It’s a SYSTEMIC problem:
Dominos SOLD - That weren’t - Couldn’t be - Calibrated/aligned...
Then sent in to Festool Service - And returned to the customers without being fixed.

See my own experience - Detailed on the FOG (and Amazon).
“Festool Quality Assurance: Disappointing > Disgusted > Domino XL DF700EQ”
http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-problems/festool-service-disappointed-dissatisfied-disgusted-gt-domino-xl-df700eq/
Finally resolved by Tyler C and Festool HQ (Germany).
Festool Service calibrated/aligned - Then sent me a NEW Domino 700.

I hope you get resolution. I truly do.
Stick with it. Tyler C (US) and Phil (UK) will be great allies in helping you.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 11:25 AM by Joe Felchlin »
FESTOOL: CT26 and CT33 E HEPA Dust Extractors, MFT 1080, MFT-3, TS 55 REQ-F-Plus USA, TS75 EQ, Guide Rails: 1080's/1400/3000mm, LR 32-SYS/Holey Rail, Parallel Guides and Extensions, OF1400 EQ Plunge Router, OF1010 EQ Plunge Router, RO125 FEQ Rotex Sander, LS 130 EQ Linear Detail Sander, DX93E Detail Sander, C12 Cordless Drill, CXS Cordless Compact Drill Driver, SYS-Centrotec-Set, Domino XL DF 700 EQ Plus Tenon Joiner Set, Domino DF 500 Tenon Joiner | WOODPECKERS: DF 500 Offset Base System | BOSCH: 5412L Compound Miter Saw, 4100-09 10-Inch Table Saw | POWERMATIC: 60HH 8" Jointer, PWBS 14" Bandsaw w/Riser Block | MAKITA: 2012NB Bench Top Planer | JESSEM: Mast-R-Lift XL/Fence/Slide, Rout-R-Plate/Table Stand | RIKON: 50-120 6inX48in Belt-Disc Sander | JET: JBOS-5 Benchtop Oscillating Spindle Sander | PORTER CABLE: 7518 and 690LVRS Routers, 557 Pro Plate Joiner, 16/18/23 Gauge Nailers | LEIGH JIGS: D4R 24 Pro Dovetail Jig, FMT Pro Mortise & Tenon Jig | LIE-NIELSEN: Almost every hand plane | DOWELMAX: 3/8" and 1/4" | KREG: K3 Master System | FEIN: Multimaster FMM 250 Q Kit | TORMEK: Super-Grind 2000 | DUST DEPUTY: Industrial (ALL) Steel Deluxe Cyclone (2)

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 8888
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2019, 11:46 AM »
  @TylerC   

     Maybe can lend some help? Put you in touch with the right person?

Seth

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2019, 11:48 AM »
Thanks everybody, I feel I've demonstrated this is an issue with the tool, and you've all been very kind in providing advise, suggestions, confirmation this is abnormal, and resources to move forward.  I'll connect with Tyler and see how to move forward with this issue and confirm the final outcome.

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 692
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2019, 12:10 PM »
@Bugsysiegals Have you actually tried the machine, without the bit adaptor, and with a standard DF-700 cutter?

If not, I think you really have to, after doing all kinds of testing, don’t forget Festool will have tested the machine in standard form, with standard cutters.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2019, 12:23 PM »
No I've not as it's logical that a bent adapter would widen the circumference of cutting diameter resulting in wider/taller mortise while maintaining it's parallelism (assuming the machine is not shaking violently or moving around which it isn't).  The mortise is a snug tight fit on the Domino so I conclude this is not the issue but I'm more than happy to buy an official XL 700 bit if Festool can then conclude I've got a Lemon rather than that good Green Koolaid. ;)

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1664
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2019, 01:26 PM »
Out of the box it includes the 12mm cutter, so you should have that at least.  If you need a few 12mm dominos, I can sent a few your way.
-Raj

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6260
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2019, 02:03 PM »
Here's some cedar 2x material and a DF 700 with a Festool 8 mm cutter installed. I clamped the cedar to a plywood MFS to keep the front edge in position.

The first (lowest) mortise was with the base of the DF 700 sitting flat on the MFS.

I then extended the fence and placed the DF on the top of the cedar 2x and made the second (highest) mortise.

The numbers represent the distance from the bottom of the cedar board to the bottom of each mortise.

Extremely uniform & consistent.




Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2019, 02:21 PM »
Out of the box it includes the 12mm cutter, so you should have that at least.  If you need a few 12mm dominos, I can sent a few your way.

Thanks for the offer!  I was looking to see if I had a standard XL 700 bit to test with the other day and didn't see it.  Hopefully I didn't leave it attached when I sent the Domino in for service ... I'll have a look when I get home and let you know if I find it.

Offline RobS888

  • Posts: 5
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2019, 02:24 PM »
Is it ok to glom onto this thread if I'm having the same problem or should I start another?

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2019, 02:25 PM »
Here's some cedar 2x material and a DF 700 with a Festool 8 mm cutter installed. I clamped the cedar to a plywood MFS to keep the front edge in position.

The first (lowest) mortise was with the base of the DF 700 sitting flat on the MFS.

I then extended the fence and placed the DF on the top of the cedar 2x and made the second (highest) mortise.

The numbers represent the distance from the bottom of the cedar board to the bottom of each mortise.

Extremely uniform & consistent.


Thanks Cheese, I love the detail you put into that!!  I'll  provide similar example as well as a picture showing the 2 rules which show the motor parallelism, assuming the motor arm is square, related to the base plate.

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1664
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2019, 02:39 PM »
Is it ok to glom onto this thread if I'm having the same problem or should I start another?

@RobS888
If it's a similar issue, just add to the thread.  If it's something different (ex. problem with the switch), just start another thread. 
-Raj

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 8888
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2019, 02:45 PM »
Is it ok to glom onto this thread if I'm having the same problem or should I start another?

Hi,

  You fine on this topic.

Seth


  @TylerC

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 692
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2019, 04:08 PM »
No I've not as it's logical that a bent adapter would widen the circumference of cutting diameter resulting in wider/taller mortise while maintaining it's parallelism (assuming the machine is not shaking violently or moving around which it isn't).  The mortise is a snug tight fit on the Domino so I conclude this is not the issue but I'm more than happy to buy an official XL 700 bit if Festool can then conclude I've got a Lemon rather than that good Green Koolaid. ;)

I know, and I agree about the logic but, you’ve come this far so why not test the machine just in the way Festool have.
Then, there’s no doubt, and you can put it to them again?
I hope you get a resolve, as it must be very frustrating, especially with a machine that’s had minimal use.

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2019, 04:47 PM »
Alright, this is the moment we've been waiting for ... Daniel Larusao's going to fight?!?!

I forget the large bits were stored in the Styrofoam and not the tray.  I installed the 12mm bit and did the same exercise Cheese did with results below.

299466-0

299468-1

299470-2

299472-3

Here you can see by using a SS rule aligned with the top of the mortise, the skew/alignment I'm referring to.  If you cannot see it's 15.60mm on the Left and 21.64mm on the Right.

299474-4

In addition, I've used clamps up front to hold the weight of the Domino, without skewing it Left/Right and allowing it to remain flat, and used a precision straight edge on the bottom of the motor mount to get a visual off the motor's plane of motion in comparison to the base plate reference plane (aligned with the top of the MFT table).  As you'll see, the motor is canted which aligns perfectly with the mortises I'm making.  I can't say for sure the motor housing is supposed to be perfectly parallel with its plane of motion but if it's not, I suspect it should be close and at least give the mental picture of how this motor's canted.

299476-5

299478-6

299480-7

299482-8

299484-9

299486-10

« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 04:50 PM by Bugsysiegals »

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 692
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2019, 06:22 PM »
Well, at least you know now for sure. Unfortunately you have to get Festool back on the case.
If they again return your machine, saying it’s fine, your next move would have to be trying somebody else's DF-700?

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1664
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2019, 08:37 PM »
So I went downstairs to duplicate your test.  I had a 10mm bit in the machine, clamped the work piece to the bench and just held the domino base down to the bench while plunging.  I did choose a piece of scrap that was thick enough that the bit wouldn’t blow out the back (in case that somehow causes an issue).  All three were consistent and while I put the calipers on them, the readings were within 0.1mm side to side in each. There is some variation in the floor of the mortise (and my measuring) so the readings varied a little but on average it didn’t appear to skew on the left or right.  I also dropped a domino into one mortise and placed an 18” steel ruler across the top of the domino (similar to what you did) to see what the skew looked like 9” in either direction of the mortise.  They were within a few mm which could very well be my error since it’s hard to get positive registration across the top of the domino.

This is the only pic I took, but it gives you an idea how the mortise looks against the pencil line I drew before creating the mortise.
-Raj

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1168
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #43 on: June 20, 2019, 11:40 PM »
Here's some cedar 2x material and a DF 700 with a Festool 8 mm cutter installed. I clamped the cedar to a plywood MFS to keep the front edge in position.

The first (lowest) mortise was with the base of the DF 700 sitting flat on the MFS.

I then extended the fence and placed the DF on the top of the cedar 2x and made the second (highest) mortise.

The numbers represent the distance from the bottom of the cedar board to the bottom of each mortise.

Extremely uniform & consistent.


New Festool DJ owners should consider using Cheese's method to verify their machines as soon as they open their systainers for the first time! [thumbs up]

If a DJ is sent to Festool for repairs for misalignment reasons like the OP has experienced, as soon as it is returned, perform the test Cheese has demonstrated here too. No more guesswork or doubts about your techniques when the technician says everything is fine.

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 8888
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2019, 12:05 AM »
     I think the ruler skew is off. It doesn't match the math. The mortise skew is .14mm across the mortise width (about 1"). With a 12" rule   that works out to 1.68 mm across the 12" rule. But the measurement of the rule skew is a difference of 6mm. About four times the skew at the mortise.  Or the mortise skew measurement is off.  One or the other even if my numbers are not exact.

Seth
« Last Edit: June 21, 2019, 12:08 AM by SRSemenza »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6260
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2019, 12:26 AM »
New Festool DJ owners should consider using Cheese's method to verify their machines as soon as they open their systainers for the first time! [thumbs up]

Thanks for the kind words Chuck... [smile]

Thinking about this procedure more, I really think that placing the tool (DF 500/DF 700) on a flat surface and making the plunges and then measuring the offsets is really the acid test.

The fence test is best used as a technique qualifier and possibly as a qualifying second check but not necessarily as an acid test because it is fraught with it’s own set of variables.

The base test is simply using a flat surface as your absolute datum and then by repeating the testing it will give you a clearer and clearer view of your tolerance deviation.

Bringing this example to it’s most uncommon extreme is to place the Domino and the wood on a granite plate or cast iron bed. Plunge after plunge after plunge would result in a yield curve that would entail some minimal variation of the plunge heights and that would eventually become the range of the variance.

It’s important to remember that 1 data point does not make a trend line.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6260
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #46 on: June 21, 2019, 01:05 AM »
Here you can see by using a SS rule aligned with the top of the mortise, the skew/alignment I'm referring to.

I’m not so sure that you can accurately extrapolate out the final end position by projecting off of that short of a Domino line. 

In as much as we don’t feel comfortable squaring 4’ x 8’ sheets of ply with a 6” square, to extend a machined Domino line 12” by using a line that was only 1” long is dangerous and doesn’t, with any accuracy, indicate it’s true destination.

You've got a 12:1 ratio that's potentially skewing your answer. If the start of your projection line is off by only .010", after 12" you'll be off by 1/8".


« Last Edit: June 21, 2019, 10:01 AM by Cheese »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6260
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #47 on: June 21, 2019, 10:47 AM »
Hey Bugsy, I'm just looking at the photo I produced and then the photos you & Raj produced.

Just some observations.  [smile]

1. The difference in height that I measured was approx. .09 mm for both the base and the fence test.
2. The LH side was always higher than the RH side.
3. As it was difficult to get an accurate measurement with a single reading, I measured each edge distance 3 times and then averaged that to get my results.




1. The difference in height that you measured was .14 mm for the base & .10 mm for the fence. It's interesting that your base measurement had a larger variance than the fence measurement. I would expect the results to be just the opposite as the base is taken off of a solid/hard/immobile surface.
2. Also on your measurements, the LH side was always higher than the RH side.




1. While Raj didn't record the individual dimensions of each mortise, he did mention that they were all within again that consistent .10 mm window. The .10 mm variance is only a difference of .004"...the thickness of a human hair.



Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #48 on: June 21, 2019, 10:48 AM »
I've requested @RKA to mail a few 12mm Tenons my way.  Once I have the Tenon's, I'm happy to plunge, using the base, on my cast iron table saw if necessary, as many examples as needed, and even create a scatterplot with regression line to better articulate the consistency and standard deviation of these plunges.

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #49 on: June 21, 2019, 10:53 AM »
Thanks @Cheese, very detailed analysis.  I'd expected more variance from the fence given I'd measured it with .1mm additional gap between it and my table saw surface.  Like you, I took many measurements and averaged them since I had quite a bit of deviation ... maybe my caliper is not as accurate or just the way I was measuring.  Did you measure using the pointy tip of the caliper which can depress into the wood if squeezed to hard or did you use the are which starts to become flat, etc.?

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6260
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #50 on: June 21, 2019, 11:11 AM »
Like you, I took many measurements and averaged them since I had quite a bit of deviation ... maybe my caliper is not as accurate or just the way I was measuring.  Did you measure using the pointy tip of the caliper which can depress into the wood if squeezed to hard or did you use the are which starts to become flat, etc.?

I think your caliper is fine, it's just a difficult measurement to get consistent results with. I tried to not use the pointed end because it does compress the wood fibers, however, because the mortise is only 8 mm tall, there's only so much of the caliper that is able to enter the mortise so I was stuck having to use some of the narrow pointed end for measuring.

The preferred method of measurement would be to make a correctly sized gauge block from aluminum, insert it into the mortise and then measure the distance from the underside of the gauge block to the table surface. However, that's a science project of it's own.  [big grin]

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #51 on: June 21, 2019, 11:29 AM »
Agreed.  Well I really want to use my Domino and be happy with all my Festool equipment so hopefully I can make some more test cuts and get Festool to agree this is not correct.

Offline RobS888

  • Posts: 5
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #52 on: June 21, 2019, 12:02 PM »
This is starting to remind me of the Ridgid R4512 alignment issue. the saw had a problem on some saws and the company wouldn't acknowledge it.

Do I sell this lemon and buy another hoping to get a good one?

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1767
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2019, 12:43 PM »
     I think the ruler skew is off. It doesn't match the math. The mortise skew is .14mm across the mortise width (about 1"). With a 12" rule   that works out to 1.68 mm across the 12" rule. But the measurement of the rule skew is a difference of 6mm. About four times the skew at the mortise.  Or the mortise skew measurement is off.  One or the other even if my numbers are not exact.
Seth
I agree with Seth. The OP's extrapolation is wrong.

I can tell you right away that Festool service will return that Domino saying it's within specs.
This entire thread is about splitting hairs. And I thought I was obsessive compulsive. A 0.1 mm skew across a mortise is great accuracy for wood and will have no bearing on any of your projects. Wood will compress more than that from simply hammering in a tenon.

P.S. A slight skew  on all machines is due to clockwise rotation of the cutter (all other things being perfectly parallel). Had it been counterclockwise, the skew would have been the opposite. That skew will vary depending on material, plunge speed, and cuter sharpness.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2019, 01:06 PM by Svar »

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4103
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #54 on: June 21, 2019, 12:48 PM »
My Domino 500 also makes slightly tilted mortises. Not quite whole .1mm, more like .07mm. In practice I ignore it.

First off I never join 2 pieces of wood with a single Domino in a way that would telegraph that defect. Not really a work-around, just never use that kind of joint.

Second, I find the counter tilted mortises result in more holding power keeping joint tight without causing a plywood panel to become wavy. This might not be the result with your slightly more tilted slots.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1767
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #55 on: June 21, 2019, 01:00 PM »
First off I never join 2 pieces of wood with a single Domino in a way that would telegraph that defect.
And even if you did it would be a narrow piece (1-2") where this tilt wouldn't matter. Anything wider will get 2 or more dominos.

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #56 on: June 21, 2019, 01:40 PM »
     I think the ruler skew is off. It doesn't match the math. The mortise skew is .14mm across the mortise width (about 1"). With a 12" rule   that works out to 1.68 mm across the 12" rule. But the measurement of the rule skew is a difference of 6mm. About four times the skew at the mortise.  Or the mortise skew measurement is off.  One or the other even if my numbers are not exact.
Seth
I agree with Seth. The OP's extrapolation is wrong.

I can tell you right away that Festool service will return that Domino saying it's within specs.
This entire thread is about splitting hairs. And I thought I was obsessive compulsive. A 0.1 mm skew across a mortise is great accuracy for wood and will have no bearing on any of your projects. Wood will compress more than that from simply hammering in a tenon.

P.S. A slight skew  on all machines is due to clockwise rotation of the cutter (all other things being perfectly parallel). Had it been counterclockwise, the skew would have been the opposite. That skew will vary depending on material, plunge speed, and cuter sharpness.

As you can see in the photo's, the wood is misaligned by more than a "hair".  Festool hasn't yet responded whether they consider this "in spec" or not but most here have indicated their boards are nearly flush and this is not what they'd expect from their tool.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1767
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2019, 02:04 PM »
As you can see in the photo's, the wood is misaligned by more than a "hair".  Festool hasn't yet responded whether they consider this "in spec" or not but most here have indicated their boards are nearly flush and this is not what they'd expect from their tool.
My bad, I did not look at the very first picture on page 1. The misalignment there looks severe. How cam a 0.1mm tilt of the mortise causes this much misalignment when pieces are joined (even when error is compounded). It appears caliper measurements of the mortise are inaccurate and misleading.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2019, 02:08 PM by Svar »

Offline RobS888

  • Posts: 5
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2019, 03:42 PM »
As you can see in the photo's, the wood is misaligned by more than a "hair".  Festool hasn't yet responded whether they consider this "in spec" or not but most here have indicated their boards are nearly flush and this is not what they'd expect from their tool.
My bad, I did not look at the very first picture on page 1. The misalignment there looks severe. How cam a 0.1mm tilt of the mortise causes this much misalignment when pieces are joined (even when error is compounded). It appears caliper measurements of the mortise are inaccurate and misleading.

Do you think a domino joint should need to be sanded to appear flush?

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1664
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #59 on: June 22, 2019, 01:46 PM »
I mailed bugsysiegals a 12” long pair if 2x’s with 10mm mortises on one end (domino base was on the MFT and work piece was clamped to the MFT with a back stop). The far end is off by 1-2mm with no tension and can easily be brought flush with very little pressure.  So while there is a slight skew in the mortises, the results are quite acceptable since it wouldn’t cause an issue in the work.  If he can put 12mm mortises on the other end he can compare the results from the 2 machines to see if there is a real difference, and if there is, hopefully Festool may listen and offer a little more assistance.
-Raj

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #60 on: June 22, 2019, 01:55 PM »
I mailed bugsysiegals a 12” long pair if 2x’s with 10mm mortises on one end (domino base was on the MFT and work piece was clamped to the MFT with a back stop). The far end is off by 1-2mm with no tension and can easily be brought flush with very little pressure.  So while there is a slight skew in the mortises, the results are quite acceptable since it wouldn’t cause an issue in the work.  If he can put 12mm mortises on the other end he can compare the results from the 2 machines to see if there is a real difference, and if there is, hopefully Festool may listen and offer a little more assistance.

Thanks @RKA, I don’t have any 12mm tenons, not sure if you included 1 for me?

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1664
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #61 on: June 22, 2019, 02:36 PM »
How’s 5?  (12x100mm). They are in the box. :)
-Raj

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #62 on: June 22, 2019, 11:39 PM »
How’s 5?  (12x100mm). They are in the box. :)

Thank you kind sir, hope I can return the favor some day!!

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #63 on: June 26, 2019, 03:44 PM »
Thanks @RKA, I received the package you sent me yesterday! :)

Here's a high level overview of what I've done ...  I extended the line @RKA drew underneath the existing mortises to go across the entire back piece, added a line to the opposite mating face, the other end of the top, and other end for sag measurement.  I spread the pieces of wood open, keeping their bottoms on the table as I've been doing all along, used the Seneca adapter with 10mm bit to plunge new holes in both pieces, and finally joined them together using the Domino which was sent.

RKA's Domino assembled and sitting on the MFT
299785-0
299788-1
299791-2

My line added to the Top Right
299793-3

Clamped and ready, line extended
299796-4

Line added to the front piece
299798-5

Plunging the back piece on it's Right end
299801-6

Mortise looks great
299804-7

Front piece clamped and ready
299806-8

Plunging the front piece on it's Left end
299809-9

Mortise looks great
299811-10

Assembled at the end I've plunged using the same Domino you used and slightly opened up to confirm this is my plunge
299814-11

My Domino ... close enough to perfect!!  But keep reading...
299818-12

When holding by the back piece alone, the front piece drops by about 5.5 mm.
299820-13

When holding by the front piece alone, the back piece drops by about 13 mm.
299823-14

When doing the same with RKA's Domino, the distance of sag is 8 mm both ways.
299825-15
299827-16
« Last Edit: June 26, 2019, 03:59 PM by Bugsysiegals »

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #64 on: June 26, 2019, 03:57 PM »
An important thing I noticed was how much looser the joint was on this material than the plywood so I decided to try one of my 10 mm Domino's to determine whether it was the Domino or difference in wood.  To my surprise my Domino was much more snug than RKA's.  Images below show the difference in Diameter as well as color of material.

299829-0
299831-1

My Domino's came from this kit which remains in sealed bags, within the systainer, in a dehumidified basement wood shop.
299833-2
299835-3

Due to the difference of fit, I've repeated this exercise with my plywood using RKA's Domino stock and my own.  His Domino stock allows the plywood to sit flush on the table whereas mine has a 5.5 mm gap as shown throughout this thread and when pushing down to become flush you can hear wood fibers beginning to snap.  This is my concern since plywood is inconsistent with voids, etc. and with thin stock could even break entirely.  Based on the measurements, my Domino has more skew than RKA's, perhaps within spec but not sure since Festool hasn't advised, and there's difference in Domino tenon thickness at work here.

I'll follow up with pictures shortly of the plywood experiment ...
« Last Edit: June 26, 2019, 04:04 PM by Bugsysiegals »

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1664
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #65 on: June 26, 2019, 04:58 PM »
I'm scratching my head here.  It would seem like your domino might be a little more skewed but still perfectly acceptable, but the 10mm domino stock you have is unusually thicker?  Can you try again using thicker scraps of wood and the 12mm tenons I sent?  At least to see if the results are acceptable?

You could try the microwave trick on your 10mm tenons.  I know you said it's dehumidified in the basement, but it's an easy thing to try.  I can tell you that 10mm tenon is old.  I never use them, so those came with the 4-10mm assortment set I got ~6 years ago?
-Raj

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #66 on: June 26, 2019, 05:23 PM »
I'm scratching my head here.  It would seem like your domino might be a little more skewed but still perfectly acceptable, but the 10mm domino stock you have is unusually thicker?  Can you try again using thicker scraps of wood and the 12mm tenons I sent?  At least to see if the results are acceptable?

You could try the microwave trick on your 10mm tenons.  I know you said it's dehumidified in the basement, but it's an easy thing to try.  I can tell you that 10mm tenon is old.  I never use them, so those came with the 4-10mm assortment set I got ~6 years ago?

With your Domino, it's definitely acceptable on the wood you provided and the plywood as well but with my stock it's skewed on both.  Since your wood is solid it's easy enough to bend into place but with thin stock I'm definitely concerned the pressure will cause issue.  I was hoping @TylerC could elaborate on the acceptable tolerance but seems he's leaving Festool. Perhaps @Festool USA can clarify?

Would you recommend flipping the boards you provided inside out and using the 12 mm cutter?

Offline rmhinden

  • Posts: 187
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #67 on: June 26, 2019, 05:58 PM »

My Domino ... close enough to perfect!!  But keep reading...
(Attachment Link)

When holding by the back piece alone, the front piece drops by about 5.5 mm.
(Attachment Link)

When holding by the front piece alone, the back piece drops by about 13 mm.
(Attachment Link)

Could you explain what you are doing in these last two pictures?  Is there only one domino connecting the boards at the far end?

What happens if you put a domino at each end and one in the middle?

I just did a test with my XL.   Made one 8mm mortice near each end of a short board.   When I inserted only one domino, I and tried to move the other end, I did get a small amount of deflection.  When I added the domino at the other end, I got none.

Bob



Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #68 on: June 27, 2019, 08:23 AM »

My Domino ... close enough to perfect!!  But keep reading...
(Attachment Link)

When holding by the back piece alone, the front piece drops by about 5.5 mm.
(Attachment Link)

When holding by the front piece alone, the back piece drops by about 13 mm.
(Attachment Link)

Could you explain what you are doing in these last two pictures?  Is there only one domino connecting the boards at the far end?

What happens if you put a domino at each end and one in the middle?

I just did a test with my XL.   Made one 8mm mortice near each end of a short board.   When I inserted only one domino, I and tried to move the other end, I did get a small amount of deflection.  When I added the domino at the other end, I got none.

Bob

I was holding one piece and allowing the other to sag by it's weight alone.  There's a few things this shows ... the evenness of the joint RKA made versus mine (8/8 versus 5.5/13), and also to show whether the weight alone allows the back piece to fall below the front piece (mine have always stood in the air and required pressure to close the ~4-6 mm gap).

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #69 on: June 27, 2019, 09:49 AM »
I'm scratching my head here.  It would seem like your domino might be a little more skewed but still perfectly acceptable, but the 10mm domino stock you have is unusually thicker?  Can you try again using thicker scraps of wood and the 12mm tenons I sent?  At least to see if the results are acceptable?

You could try the microwave trick on your 10mm tenons.  I know you said it's dehumidified in the basement, but it's an easy thing to try.  I can tell you that 10mm tenon is old.  I never use them, so those came with the 4-10mm assortment set I got ~6 years ago?

I'm not familiar with the microwave trick and will have to google it.

I tried the 12 mm Domino in the stock you sent and the while the front piece laid perfectly flat on the MFT the back piece was raised into the air 4.5 mm.  It seems I will not get an offical response from Festool here and will need to call them to find out what they consider acceptable.

I've several shop cabinets waiting to be assembled, way more after that needing to be built, and decided to test the XL on an actual cabinet since worst case it'll be in my shop.  I made several mistakes, learned a few things, and now have to figure out how to avoid making some of these same mistakes in the future.

My first mistake involved using the 6 flexible tabs on the front of the Domino to cut the first mortise holes on each corner.  I used the first tab for the sides going front to back to avoid having a Domino 37mm from the edge where drawer glides or shelf pin holes are located and the 2nd tab for all the other holes.  I wasn't paying enough attention, got the 2nd tab over the top of the material, aligned the 3rd tab instead, and plunged the hole!  I did this 3 times and learned the importance of slowing down to ensure the first holes are exact. 

299903-0

My second mistake is a result of the first.  I used the wings which attach to reference off previous holes in order to space out the Domino's.  Since the first hole on the edge banding was different than the plywood, the bottom of the back does not line up and needs to be re-done!

The back right corner, aligned properly, but unfortunately the bad corner was the one everything in between was referenced from.
299905-1

My third sort of mistake was the setting on the extension wing.  After plunging the corner holes, I measured the distance between them, counted how many Domino's I'd like, subtracted 20mm x the # of Domino's, and divided by the # of Domino's + 1 to determine the spacing between Domino's.  I set the wing to this value and when I got to the other end, it wasn't spaced out evenly.  Afterwards I discovered the number on the wing takes you to the center of the Domino, not the edge, and I should've added +10mm for the small mortise setting ... lesson learned!

My fourth "almost" mistake was that while referencing with the extension wing, I went top to bottom on one side of the back but bottom to top on the other side.  Luckily I checked before plunging the sides and referenced them in the same way.  I've decided it best to label the parts with back, front, top, bottom and move alphabetically when doing this.  For example, Left to Right, Bottom to Top, Back to Front, etc. ... hopefully this will form a good process which avoids future mistakes.

My fifth and final mistake was that I was switching between plunging edge banding (15mm) and plywood (25mm) but forgot to switch back to 15mm and plunged right through the edge banding on one hole.  I'd caught myself twice before this so it could've been worse but I need a better process so I don't forget this again.  At least it's in a back corner on the bottom but now I'm wondering if I cut all back 4 corners or more and make it uniform, pound it in a bit and use glue and Walnut shavings/dust to fill in the void, etc.  I was able to laugh about the mistake as this is only a shop cabinet but I need to figure this out before it's an important cabinet.  I'm considering switching from 6x40 to 5x30 Domino which would then always be 15mm plunge and perhaps less likely to crack anything while under pressure from the skew ... thoughts? 

299907-2

Mistakes aside, I used the small setting on all mortises and was able to assemble the sides to the bottom but it did require I reach in between and put some pressure on a few Domino's.  After disassembly and re-assembly, I think it went together slightly easier the second time around which is a good sign.  I've to re-plunge the bottom back plywood before it will go together but otherwise everything seems to be good so far.  I should be able to get to the stretchers/partition tonight which is what I'm really interested to see.  The stetchers are 100mm wide ... should I use 2 Domino's or Kreg screws?  For the partition, I assume I should determine the distance from the top/bottom of the mortises I'm making in the plywood, calculate the offset, and clamp a straight edge that offset away from the center and butt the bottom of the XL to it?  FWIW - I'm not using the Seneca plate as it really messed up using the line for alignment; however, I've only used the pins/extension wing so far.  That said, if this is the method most people use, and perhaps the Seneca plate allows better centering of material, then perhaps I should add it back on?

All that said, because of the way this cabinet is built with Domino's in different directions, I'll have to assemble sides and stretchers to the partition first, slide that assembly onto the back, and then assemble the tops/bottoms.  I'm not certain how I can do this all quickly, especially while adding glue, and having to fiddle with the Domino's, perhaps I'm using to many Domino's?  If using Domino's, I could use the larger setting for the Domino's in the middle of the panels but that doesn't seem very structural and I've ready many who do not recommend?  Should I have incorporated dado's in some of this instead?

299909-3
« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 10:40 AM by Bugsysiegals »

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #70 on: June 27, 2019, 10:30 AM »
FWIW - I spoke with Erik at Festool and he indicated the XL 700 is not meant for plywood.  I indicated irrelevant of the plywood I receive the same results on larger wood but he indicated the skew with a single Domino means nothing and asked if I'm able to join the other end with another Domino.  I can join the other end of plywood, albeit under some stress, but since the XL is not meant for plywood, I'd only have recourse if this was happening with a DF 500.  That said, case closed, I'm moving on with my projects.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1168
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #71 on: June 27, 2019, 11:50 AM »
Using the DF700 on sheet goods has been discussed before, including here: http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-how-to/domino-700-and-sheet-goods/

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1168
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #72 on: June 27, 2019, 12:01 PM »
Snip.
I'm not familiar with the microwave trick and will have to google it.

Put the dominoes on a coffee filter or paper towel, and microwave them for 5 to 20 seconds (depending on the power (Watt) of your microwave and the number of dominoes you put!). Transfer the dominoes (they can be hot [eek]) to a small pail or container, and use them right away for the glue-up (you can reuse the filter or towel for the next batch after the moisture on it is gone).
« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 12:19 PM by ChuckM »