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Author Topic: New Domino XL Alignment Issue  (Read 4770 times)

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Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 692
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2019, 12:10 PM »
@Bugsysiegals Have you actually tried the machine, without the bit adaptor, and with a standard DF-700 cutter?

If not, I think you really have to, after doing all kinds of testing, don’t forget Festool will have tested the machine in standard form, with standard cutters.

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Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2019, 12:23 PM »
No I've not as it's logical that a bent adapter would widen the circumference of cutting diameter resulting in wider/taller mortise while maintaining it's parallelism (assuming the machine is not shaking violently or moving around which it isn't).  The mortise is a snug tight fit on the Domino so I conclude this is not the issue but I'm more than happy to buy an official XL 700 bit if Festool can then conclude I've got a Lemon rather than that good Green Koolaid. ;)

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1664
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2019, 01:26 PM »
Out of the box it includes the 12mm cutter, so you should have that at least.  If you need a few 12mm dominos, I can sent a few your way.
-Raj

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6257
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2019, 02:03 PM »
Here's some cedar 2x material and a DF 700 with a Festool 8 mm cutter installed. I clamped the cedar to a plywood MFS to keep the front edge in position.

The first (lowest) mortise was with the base of the DF 700 sitting flat on the MFS.

I then extended the fence and placed the DF on the top of the cedar 2x and made the second (highest) mortise.

The numbers represent the distance from the bottom of the cedar board to the bottom of each mortise.

Extremely uniform & consistent.




Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2019, 02:21 PM »
Out of the box it includes the 12mm cutter, so you should have that at least.  If you need a few 12mm dominos, I can sent a few your way.

Thanks for the offer!  I was looking to see if I had a standard XL 700 bit to test with the other day and didn't see it.  Hopefully I didn't leave it attached when I sent the Domino in for service ... I'll have a look when I get home and let you know if I find it.

Offline RobS888

  • Posts: 5
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2019, 02:24 PM »
Is it ok to glom onto this thread if I'm having the same problem or should I start another?

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2019, 02:25 PM »
Here's some cedar 2x material and a DF 700 with a Festool 8 mm cutter installed. I clamped the cedar to a plywood MFS to keep the front edge in position.

The first (lowest) mortise was with the base of the DF 700 sitting flat on the MFS.

I then extended the fence and placed the DF on the top of the cedar 2x and made the second (highest) mortise.

The numbers represent the distance from the bottom of the cedar board to the bottom of each mortise.

Extremely uniform & consistent.


Thanks Cheese, I love the detail you put into that!!  I'll  provide similar example as well as a picture showing the 2 rules which show the motor parallelism, assuming the motor arm is square, related to the base plate.

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1664
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2019, 02:39 PM »
Is it ok to glom onto this thread if I'm having the same problem or should I start another?

@RobS888
If it's a similar issue, just add to the thread.  If it's something different (ex. problem with the switch), just start another thread. 
-Raj

Online SRSemenza

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Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2019, 02:45 PM »
Is it ok to glom onto this thread if I'm having the same problem or should I start another?

Hi,

  You fine on this topic.

Seth


  @TylerC

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 692
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2019, 04:08 PM »
No I've not as it's logical that a bent adapter would widen the circumference of cutting diameter resulting in wider/taller mortise while maintaining it's parallelism (assuming the machine is not shaking violently or moving around which it isn't).  The mortise is a snug tight fit on the Domino so I conclude this is not the issue but I'm more than happy to buy an official XL 700 bit if Festool can then conclude I've got a Lemon rather than that good Green Koolaid. ;)

I know, and I agree about the logic but, you’ve come this far so why not test the machine just in the way Festool have.
Then, there’s no doubt, and you can put it to them again?
I hope you get a resolve, as it must be very frustrating, especially with a machine that’s had minimal use.

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2019, 04:47 PM »
Alright, this is the moment we've been waiting for ... Daniel Larusao's going to fight?!?!

I forget the large bits were stored in the Styrofoam and not the tray.  I installed the 12mm bit and did the same exercise Cheese did with results below.

299466-0

299468-1

299470-2

299472-3

Here you can see by using a SS rule aligned with the top of the mortise, the skew/alignment I'm referring to.  If you cannot see it's 15.60mm on the Left and 21.64mm on the Right.

299474-4

In addition, I've used clamps up front to hold the weight of the Domino, without skewing it Left/Right and allowing it to remain flat, and used a precision straight edge on the bottom of the motor mount to get a visual off the motor's plane of motion in comparison to the base plate reference plane (aligned with the top of the MFT table).  As you'll see, the motor is canted which aligns perfectly with the mortises I'm making.  I can't say for sure the motor housing is supposed to be perfectly parallel with its plane of motion but if it's not, I suspect it should be close and at least give the mental picture of how this motor's canted.

299476-5

299478-6

299480-7

299482-8

299484-9

299486-10

« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 04:50 PM by Bugsysiegals »

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 692
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2019, 06:22 PM »
Well, at least you know now for sure. Unfortunately you have to get Festool back on the case.
If they again return your machine, saying it’s fine, your next move would have to be trying somebody else's DF-700?

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1664
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2019, 08:37 PM »
So I went downstairs to duplicate your test.  I had a 10mm bit in the machine, clamped the work piece to the bench and just held the domino base down to the bench while plunging.  I did choose a piece of scrap that was thick enough that the bit wouldn’t blow out the back (in case that somehow causes an issue).  All three were consistent and while I put the calipers on them, the readings were within 0.1mm side to side in each. There is some variation in the floor of the mortise (and my measuring) so the readings varied a little but on average it didn’t appear to skew on the left or right.  I also dropped a domino into one mortise and placed an 18” steel ruler across the top of the domino (similar to what you did) to see what the skew looked like 9” in either direction of the mortise.  They were within a few mm which could very well be my error since it’s hard to get positive registration across the top of the domino.

This is the only pic I took, but it gives you an idea how the mortise looks against the pencil line I drew before creating the mortise.
-Raj

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1168
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #43 on: June 20, 2019, 11:40 PM »
Here's some cedar 2x material and a DF 700 with a Festool 8 mm cutter installed. I clamped the cedar to a plywood MFS to keep the front edge in position.

The first (lowest) mortise was with the base of the DF 700 sitting flat on the MFS.

I then extended the fence and placed the DF on the top of the cedar 2x and made the second (highest) mortise.

The numbers represent the distance from the bottom of the cedar board to the bottom of each mortise.

Extremely uniform & consistent.


New Festool DJ owners should consider using Cheese's method to verify their machines as soon as they open their systainers for the first time! [thumbs up]

If a DJ is sent to Festool for repairs for misalignment reasons like the OP has experienced, as soon as it is returned, perform the test Cheese has demonstrated here too. No more guesswork or doubts about your techniques when the technician says everything is fine.

Online SRSemenza

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Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #44 on: June 21, 2019, 12:05 AM »
     I think the ruler skew is off. It doesn't match the math. The mortise skew is .14mm across the mortise width (about 1"). With a 12" rule   that works out to 1.68 mm across the 12" rule. But the measurement of the rule skew is a difference of 6mm. About four times the skew at the mortise.  Or the mortise skew measurement is off.  One or the other even if my numbers are not exact.

Seth
« Last Edit: June 21, 2019, 12:08 AM by SRSemenza »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6257
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2019, 12:26 AM »
New Festool DJ owners should consider using Cheese's method to verify their machines as soon as they open their systainers for the first time! [thumbs up]

Thanks for the kind words Chuck... [smile]

Thinking about this procedure more, I really think that placing the tool (DF 500/DF 700) on a flat surface and making the plunges and then measuring the offsets is really the acid test.

The fence test is best used as a technique qualifier and possibly as a qualifying second check but not necessarily as an acid test because it is fraught with it’s own set of variables.

The base test is simply using a flat surface as your absolute datum and then by repeating the testing it will give you a clearer and clearer view of your tolerance deviation.

Bringing this example to it’s most uncommon extreme is to place the Domino and the wood on a granite plate or cast iron bed. Plunge after plunge after plunge would result in a yield curve that would entail some minimal variation of the plunge heights and that would eventually become the range of the variance.

It’s important to remember that 1 data point does not make a trend line.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6257
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #46 on: June 21, 2019, 01:05 AM »
Here you can see by using a SS rule aligned with the top of the mortise, the skew/alignment I'm referring to.

I’m not so sure that you can accurately extrapolate out the final end position by projecting off of that short of a Domino line. 

In as much as we don’t feel comfortable squaring 4’ x 8’ sheets of ply with a 6” square, to extend a machined Domino line 12” by using a line that was only 1” long is dangerous and doesn’t, with any accuracy, indicate it’s true destination.

You've got a 12:1 ratio that's potentially skewing your answer. If the start of your projection line is off by only .010", after 12" you'll be off by 1/8".


« Last Edit: June 21, 2019, 10:01 AM by Cheese »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6257
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #47 on: June 21, 2019, 10:47 AM »
Hey Bugsy, I'm just looking at the photo I produced and then the photos you & Raj produced.

Just some observations.  [smile]

1. The difference in height that I measured was approx. .09 mm for both the base and the fence test.
2. The LH side was always higher than the RH side.
3. As it was difficult to get an accurate measurement with a single reading, I measured each edge distance 3 times and then averaged that to get my results.




1. The difference in height that you measured was .14 mm for the base & .10 mm for the fence. It's interesting that your base measurement had a larger variance than the fence measurement. I would expect the results to be just the opposite as the base is taken off of a solid/hard/immobile surface.
2. Also on your measurements, the LH side was always higher than the RH side.




1. While Raj didn't record the individual dimensions of each mortise, he did mention that they were all within again that consistent .10 mm window. The .10 mm variance is only a difference of .004"...the thickness of a human hair.



Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #48 on: June 21, 2019, 10:48 AM »
I've requested @RKA to mail a few 12mm Tenons my way.  Once I have the Tenon's, I'm happy to plunge, using the base, on my cast iron table saw if necessary, as many examples as needed, and even create a scatterplot with regression line to better articulate the consistency and standard deviation of these plunges.

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #49 on: June 21, 2019, 10:53 AM »
Thanks @Cheese, very detailed analysis.  I'd expected more variance from the fence given I'd measured it with .1mm additional gap between it and my table saw surface.  Like you, I took many measurements and averaged them since I had quite a bit of deviation ... maybe my caliper is not as accurate or just the way I was measuring.  Did you measure using the pointy tip of the caliper which can depress into the wood if squeezed to hard or did you use the are which starts to become flat, etc.?

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6257
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #50 on: June 21, 2019, 11:11 AM »
Like you, I took many measurements and averaged them since I had quite a bit of deviation ... maybe my caliper is not as accurate or just the way I was measuring.  Did you measure using the pointy tip of the caliper which can depress into the wood if squeezed to hard or did you use the are which starts to become flat, etc.?

I think your caliper is fine, it's just a difficult measurement to get consistent results with. I tried to not use the pointed end because it does compress the wood fibers, however, because the mortise is only 8 mm tall, there's only so much of the caliper that is able to enter the mortise so I was stuck having to use some of the narrow pointed end for measuring.

The preferred method of measurement would be to make a correctly sized gauge block from aluminum, insert it into the mortise and then measure the distance from the underside of the gauge block to the table surface. However, that's a science project of it's own.  [big grin]

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #51 on: June 21, 2019, 11:29 AM »
Agreed.  Well I really want to use my Domino and be happy with all my Festool equipment so hopefully I can make some more test cuts and get Festool to agree this is not correct.

Offline RobS888

  • Posts: 5
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #52 on: June 21, 2019, 12:02 PM »
This is starting to remind me of the Ridgid R4512 alignment issue. the saw had a problem on some saws and the company wouldn't acknowledge it.

Do I sell this lemon and buy another hoping to get a good one?

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1766
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2019, 12:43 PM »
     I think the ruler skew is off. It doesn't match the math. The mortise skew is .14mm across the mortise width (about 1"). With a 12" rule   that works out to 1.68 mm across the 12" rule. But the measurement of the rule skew is a difference of 6mm. About four times the skew at the mortise.  Or the mortise skew measurement is off.  One or the other even if my numbers are not exact.
Seth
I agree with Seth. The OP's extrapolation is wrong.

I can tell you right away that Festool service will return that Domino saying it's within specs.
This entire thread is about splitting hairs. And I thought I was obsessive compulsive. A 0.1 mm skew across a mortise is great accuracy for wood and will have no bearing on any of your projects. Wood will compress more than that from simply hammering in a tenon.

P.S. A slight skew  on all machines is due to clockwise rotation of the cutter (all other things being perfectly parallel). Had it been counterclockwise, the skew would have been the opposite. That skew will vary depending on material, plunge speed, and cuter sharpness.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2019, 01:06 PM by Svar »

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4101
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #54 on: June 21, 2019, 12:48 PM »
My Domino 500 also makes slightly tilted mortises. Not quite whole .1mm, more like .07mm. In practice I ignore it.

First off I never join 2 pieces of wood with a single Domino in a way that would telegraph that defect. Not really a work-around, just never use that kind of joint.

Second, I find the counter tilted mortises result in more holding power keeping joint tight without causing a plywood panel to become wavy. This might not be the result with your slightly more tilted slots.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1766
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #55 on: June 21, 2019, 01:00 PM »
First off I never join 2 pieces of wood with a single Domino in a way that would telegraph that defect.
And even if you did it would be a narrow piece (1-2") where this tilt wouldn't matter. Anything wider will get 2 or more dominos.

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 263
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #56 on: June 21, 2019, 01:40 PM »
     I think the ruler skew is off. It doesn't match the math. The mortise skew is .14mm across the mortise width (about 1"). With a 12" rule   that works out to 1.68 mm across the 12" rule. But the measurement of the rule skew is a difference of 6mm. About four times the skew at the mortise.  Or the mortise skew measurement is off.  One or the other even if my numbers are not exact.
Seth
I agree with Seth. The OP's extrapolation is wrong.

I can tell you right away that Festool service will return that Domino saying it's within specs.
This entire thread is about splitting hairs. And I thought I was obsessive compulsive. A 0.1 mm skew across a mortise is great accuracy for wood and will have no bearing on any of your projects. Wood will compress more than that from simply hammering in a tenon.

P.S. A slight skew  on all machines is due to clockwise rotation of the cutter (all other things being perfectly parallel). Had it been counterclockwise, the skew would have been the opposite. That skew will vary depending on material, plunge speed, and cuter sharpness.

As you can see in the photo's, the wood is misaligned by more than a "hair".  Festool hasn't yet responded whether they consider this "in spec" or not but most here have indicated their boards are nearly flush and this is not what they'd expect from their tool.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1766
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2019, 02:04 PM »
As you can see in the photo's, the wood is misaligned by more than a "hair".  Festool hasn't yet responded whether they consider this "in spec" or not but most here have indicated their boards are nearly flush and this is not what they'd expect from their tool.
My bad, I did not look at the very first picture on page 1. The misalignment there looks severe. How cam a 0.1mm tilt of the mortise causes this much misalignment when pieces are joined (even when error is compounded). It appears caliper measurements of the mortise are inaccurate and misleading.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2019, 02:08 PM by Svar »

Offline RobS888

  • Posts: 5
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2019, 03:42 PM »
As you can see in the photo's, the wood is misaligned by more than a "hair".  Festool hasn't yet responded whether they consider this "in spec" or not but most here have indicated their boards are nearly flush and this is not what they'd expect from their tool.
My bad, I did not look at the very first picture on page 1. The misalignment there looks severe. How cam a 0.1mm tilt of the mortise causes this much misalignment when pieces are joined (even when error is compounded). It appears caliper measurements of the mortise are inaccurate and misleading.

Do you think a domino joint should need to be sanded to appear flush?

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1664
Re: New Domino XL Alignment Issue
« Reply #59 on: June 22, 2019, 01:46 PM »
I mailed bugsysiegals a 12” long pair if 2x’s with 10mm mortises on one end (domino base was on the MFT and work piece was clamped to the MFT with a back stop). The far end is off by 1-2mm with no tension and can easily be brought flush with very little pressure.  So while there is a slight skew in the mortises, the results are quite acceptable since it wouldn’t cause an issue in the work.  If he can put 12mm mortises on the other end he can compare the results from the 2 machines to see if there is a real difference, and if there is, hopefully Festool may listen and offer a little more assistance.
-Raj