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Author Topic: OF2200 router power issue?  (Read 22974 times)

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Offline Taylorkitchens

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OF2200 router power issue?
« on: May 23, 2013, 03:06 PM »
Hey guys, I'm new to the forum as I have just bought my first festool 'tool' being the of2200 router as I do a lot of kitchen fitting it seemed the best router. I have come across and issue with it and wanted to pick someone's brain about it.

I have had it 2 days, used it for the first time today off a Honda 5.5hp 2.7 kva generator, I also had a hilti vc20 vacuum running of that very same generator. While cutting my first masons mitre with both router and extractor running of the generator at the same time it's bog very slightly but work perfectly well at high speed. But when I got the my second joint, female and male cut and one bolt recess left to do then 2 joints router, it started to make a were'ing sound almost like when a generator starts to run out of petrol on the last bolt recess hole. It had got that far fine.

So I rung the guys where I bought it from and they said they'll send it back as I know the service is second to none when it comes to festool so I tried it off a transformer plugged to Mains fine, so i tried it on the generator this evening and when set to speed 6 it seemed to work fine again, but if I were to adjust that speed dial to 5 down to 1 it would make that were'ing sound and seem powerless.

What I can't work out is why it didn't do it from the word go?!


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Offline galwaydude18

  • Posts: 842
Re: OF2200 router power issue?
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2013, 05:51 PM »
I would use a 5kva transformer for what your doing. I don't think the variable electronics in Festool tool like generators

Offline Taylorkitchens

  • Posts: 55
Re: OF2200 router power issue?
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2013, 12:48 PM »
so do you think its my generator thats just not powerful enough? its fine on speed 6 but if i were to move the dial or start it on any other speed other than 6 it almost seems to stop start stop start continuously.

also will the 16amp 110v socket make a difference?

Offline festoolviking

  • Posts: 361
Re: OF2200 router power issue?
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2013, 02:33 PM »
Hi

Your generator is not powerfull enough.

OF2200 = 2200W
VC20= 1100-1200W

Adds up to 3400W (4,25 kva)

 [sad]

Festoolviking
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 02:37 PM by festoolviking »
Festoolviking

Offline Taylorkitchens

  • Posts: 55
Re: OF2200 router power issue?
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2013, 03:35 PM »
It does that when it was just the router but only if I change the speed. How do you work out the kva on just the router?

Offline festoolviking

  • Posts: 361
Re: OF2200 router power issue?
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2013, 05:25 PM »
Hi

I used this link:

http://www.rapidtables.com/convert/electric/watt-to-kva.htm

The power factor used is 0,8 so the formula is Wattage divided by 0,8 so the router kva would be 2,75kva just as much as your generator provide. But I think even that's on the limit considering the electronics in the router as mentioned before.
I'm not 100% sure about what power factor to use so if anyone is more in to this, feel free to correct me.

 [smile]

Festoolviking
Festoolviking

Offline Nick C

  • Posts: 158
Re: OF2200 router power issue?
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2013, 01:08 AM »
The problem might not be due entirely to the generator power, but to the shape of its AC waveform. AC mains deliver a reasonably clean sinusoidal waveform. Generators often deliver a "modified sine wave" which is OK for certain very simple AC devices, but unsuitable for devices with more complex electronics--which includes tools with variable speed controls. This might be why you can run the router "wide open" without a problem, but when you invoke the electronic speed control you get strange noises. Some generators deliver "pure sine wave" output, but they are quite a bit more expensive than modified sine wave models with similar power output. Unless your generator is a pure sine wave model, you probably should not risk using it to power your OF2200.

Offline Taylorkitchens

  • Posts: 55
Re: OF2200 router power issue?
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2013, 11:09 AM »
I did have a dewalt 2000w 625ek router and that was perfect. Would using just the router on the generator break it? The router I mean, don't have much care for the generator as its oldish :)

Offline Distinctive Interiors

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Re: OF2200 router power issue?
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2013, 02:48 PM »
Taylorkitchens,

I often have to use a router and my CT dust extractor with a generator on site.

My generator is rated at 2.2Kva. I have never had the problems you described with my set-up.

I use the DW 625EK and a CT11 Vac. However, mine are 240v. Don't know if this makes a difference.

The only other thing that I do when using a Genny, is plug ALL my 240v tools into an Anti-Surge 6 way adaptor. Whether this "Cleans up" the AC signal in some way, I'm not too sure! The reason I started doing it was, a mate of mine fried his router after prolonged use with a generator. The guy he sent it to, to be repaired suggested it was the generator that was the cause. Also, I believe the PCB's on battery tool chargers are also susceptible to damage in the same way. So far with the use of this anti surge/spike extension plug, no problems!!!!

Here's a link to the type of thing that I use:- http://www.tooled-up.com/product/smj-6-socket-2-metre-anti-surge-extension-lead-13amp-240v/184577/?Referrer=googleproductlisting&gclid=CO_196X1sbcCFbMQtAodU1YAWQ

Tim. (Fellow Kitchen Fitter.....!!!!!!)

Offline Taylorkitchens

  • Posts: 55
Re: OF2200 router power issue?
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2013, 05:48 PM »
Cheers Tim,

Yeah, you see I had that and no problems at all. I'm wondering if the of 2200 sucks that much more juice. All my gear is 110v, would your way work by plugging the transformer into the 240v plug, or do we think thats a big no no?

I still don't get how it worked with the extractor and the router for one whole joint and 3/4 of the second???

Offline Distinctive Interiors

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Re: OF2200 router power issue?
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2013, 05:07 AM »
Not too sure about plugging your 110v transformer into the 240v outlet of the genny, it seems unusual to need to do that as the genny has a 110v outlet.

Can you get hold of an Anti Surge adaptor to fit your 110v tools and try it? I have to say, I've never seen one!

The worrying thing may be that after cutting 1 1/2 joints of your worktops, that that is when some damage may have occurred to the Electronics on your OF 2200  [eek]

When I first brought my TS 75 and TS 55 saws, I posted on here about using them on a generator. I was concerned about damage to the electronic controls, but was assured by everyone that it would be fine. So far so good, but maybe its a 110v problem as opposed to 240v.

Have you tried running your OF 2200 off the mains via your 110v transformer, just to see if it still works as it should? At least then, if it works correctly, you will know that it is a generator problem rather than a fault with the OF 2200. Just a thought!!!!!

Hope you manage to get it sorted out.

Regards, Tim.

Offline Taylorkitchens

  • Posts: 55
Re: OF2200 router power issue?
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2013, 07:52 AM »
Hey Tim, yeah works perfectly off a tranny plugged to mains. I wonder if a 3.5kva generator would be better?!

Offline galwaydude18

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Re: OF2200 router power issue?
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2013, 08:08 AM »
I would just buy a 5kva tranny rather than a genny.

Offline Taylorkitchens

  • Posts: 55
Re: OF2200 router power issue?
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2013, 01:00 PM »
The problem I have with that is a good chunk of my fitting is done with a Jenny. Like 60/40,
So I have to use a Jenny

Offline galwaydude18

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Re: OF2200 router power issue?
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2013, 01:40 PM »
Is there no temporary power even available on the site you work on?

Offline Taylorkitchens

  • Posts: 55
Re: OF2200 router power issue?
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2013, 04:37 PM »
Not on most of them. The odd one has power which is lovely but most don't. Hate using a Jenny, plus I want to get more Festool tools now :) specifically kapex ks120

Offline galwaydude18

  • Posts: 842
Re: OF2200 router power issue?
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2013, 06:28 PM »
I can tell you for sure the kapex won't like a genny. Actually using the ks120 which I have I have to use a 5kva traffo in order to use it with the mini extractor otherwise it completely bogs down and will hardly cut red deal skirting

Offline Taylorkitchens

  • Posts: 55
Re: OF2200 router power issue?
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2013, 06:29 PM »
Oh joy :/ this sucks!!

Offline galwaydude18

  • Posts: 842
Re: OF2200 router power issue?
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2013, 06:44 PM »
Can your clients not get the sparky to wire up a tempory electrical supply to the sites? Iv never had any bother getting clients to do that

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: OF2200 router power issue?
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2013, 07:45 PM »
Aside from the fact that your current generator isn't big enough to run the loads that you have, you could also look for an electromechanical generator instead of one of these solidstate generators. Small solidstate generators are fairly new, and they can interfere with electronic tools. In the past, all generators were electromechanical, regardless of their size. Today, quite a few of the smaller ones are solidstate.

An electromechanical generator has AC windings, and the output frequency is dependent on the engine rpm. Contrary to the marketing claims of some solidstate generator manufacturers, only an electromechanical generator can produce a true sinusoidal output. A solidstate generator can only "simulate" a true sinusoidal output. This simulation is what interferes with the electronics in the tools.

The drawback to an electromechanical generator is that the engine must remain at a fixed rpm regardless of the load. This will typically be 3600 rpm, but larger commercial units can operate at 1800 rpm. The engine governor will maintain that engine speed regardless whether there is a load on the generator or not. This makes them less fuel efficient when not under load, but more efficient when they are under load.

A solid state generator creates DC power, so the windings don't care about the actual engine rpm's. It is the solidstate electronics that creates the 50 or 60 hertz output power. It does this in a similar fashion that the EC-TEC module in your Festool tool provides varying power to the motor to maintain rpm regardless of the load on the motor. This is why there can be a conflict between the output power from a solidstate generator with an EC-TEC controller on the tool.

Offline Distinctive Interiors

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Re: OF2200 router power issue?
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2013, 02:41 AM »
That all seems to be useful information Rick, but how would we know whether the Generators we are using are Solid State or Electromechanical?

Is it all down to the age of the generator?

Will it state what type it is on the specification plate on the machine?

Are the symptoms Taylor stated likely to appear worse due to the fact that he is running 110v rather than 240v?

I dont want to hi-jack this thread Taylor, just interested to know.

Thanks, Tim.

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: OF2200 router power issue?
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2013, 03:17 AM »
That all seems to be useful information Rick, but how would we know whether the Generators we are using are Solid State or Electromechanical?

If the engine speeds up and slows down depending on how much load is on it, then it is solidstate. For an electromechanical generator, you will hear the engine change load, but the rpm will remain relatively constant. Yeah I know. That may be fine for identifying what you already have, but it doesn't do you any good while you're standing in a store trying to pick one out.

Will it state what type it is on the specification plate on the machine?
I can't tell you that because it will vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. I can't even tell you what trigger words to look for because that is all a matter of marketing games. By all rights, only an electromechanical generator should be called "true sinusoidal", but unfortunately, quite a few manufacturers market their solidstate generators using this term.

Are the symptoms Taylor stated likely to appear worse due to the fact that he is running 110v rather than 240v?

No. The method of creating the simulated sine wave is the same. The only difference between the two is that for the same amount of power, the lower voltage machine will have to provide higher amperage levels.

I wish I could give you a better answer, but because so many companies deliberately gray the line, it makes it more difficult. If a unit is labeled as an inverter-generator, then you know for sure it is solidstate, because that is actually the proper name for it. Also, if it is fairly tiny and compact, it is also very likely to be an inverter-generator. The electromechanical (or also called electromagnetic) are typically a little larger in physical size.

Probably the best tip would be to look in the specifications. If it lists a single run-speed, then it is going to be electromechanical.

Offline Distinctive Interiors

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Re: OF2200 router power issue?
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2013, 03:24 AM »
Thanks Rick!

I have my Generator sitting in my workshop at the moment so I'll go and take a look at it and see what the Spec. plates say!

Tim.

Offline Distinctive Interiors

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Re: OF2200 router power issue?
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2013, 03:53 AM »
Just taken a couple of pics of the Spec plates. I don't know if these will help!!!!!

87620-0

87622-1
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 03:59 AM by Distinctive Interiors »

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: OF2200 router power issue?
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2013, 03:58 AM »
Gee, it's a shame you don't use that genny very often. It looks like it came right off the showroom floor.  [big grin] [big grin]

The first picture didn't tell me anything, and unless you've edited your post while I was typing (which I see you did), the second picture didn't come through. Can you repost it?

Offline Distinctive Interiors

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Re: OF2200 router power issue?
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2013, 04:02 AM »
I think the second picture is up there now..... [smile]

Tim.

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: OF2200 router power issue?
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2013, 04:03 AM »
Yes, second picture is there now. Based on a couple of things on the motor nameplate, it appears that yours is an electromechanical generator. Specifically, it lists the speed at 3000 rpm, which correlates to 50 hertz for a 4 pole winding.

Offline Distinctive Interiors

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Re: OF2200 router power issue?
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2013, 04:12 AM »


As you can tell, its not exactly new. [laughing]..........(2002), but it still runs fine after all those years and has never let me down.

I have used it consistently over the last 10 years to power my tools that are up to and possibly beyond its 2.2kw rating. When using my 2000w router and CT, the motor on the generator does labour a bit, but it only takes a few seconds to get up to speed again.

Thanks again Rick for your insight!

I hope TaylorKitchens didn't mind me hi-jacking his thread to a degree  [smile]

Tim.

Offline Rick Christopherson

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Re: OF2200 router power issue?
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2013, 04:14 AM »
(I was typing while you were posting).
So to follow up, you should not have any problems running any electronically controlled power tool on your generator. Your generator produces a true mathematical/mechanical sine wave and will not interfere with the electronics. The only time you can run into a problem is if you load your generator to the point that the engine cannot maintain 3000 rpm, or suddenly changes when the load suddenly increases. However, this won't affect universal motors or electronic controllers. It would only affect induction motors at start-up, such as those found in tablesaws. But that would still be true for either type of generator.

Offline Distinctive Interiors

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Re: OF2200 router power issue?
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2013, 04:18 AM »
AHA!

That would explain why the Induction motor on my Elu Flipsaw always seems to affect the generator the most!!!!!!!

It takes a good few seconds to get up to speed whilst the generator "catch's up"!!!!!

Tim.