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Author Topic: Kapex life span  (Read 272441 times)

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Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #420 on: March 21, 2016, 09:18 AM »
My understanding is that .... they are working on it.

Seth

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Offline Petey83

  • Posts: 94
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #421 on: March 21, 2016, 09:40 AM »
I would imagine any announcement of any value would take more than a week - in fact i would want it to take more than a week to help ensure it's the right answer for the owners who have had issues and all the owners (myself included) who are concerned they may have issues.

Festool is a global brand sold in a number of different countries and although we may see regional variations in price, policy on returns, product availability etc etc I would imagine that any potential announcement on the Kapex reliability problems (real or perceived) would need to be done globally which takes time.

Please remember that Tyler and Phil are only employees of Festool and although they may prove me wrong i'd be fairly confident neither of them sit on the board of directors.  [smile] The decision on what if any action to take regarding Kapex reliability concerns will be made in the rarefied air well above the pay grade of anyone who has to deal with the consequences of that management decision.
MFT 3 | TS55 | Domino DF500 | CXS | Carvex PS420 | OF1010 | OF1400 | Kapex KS120 | PDC 18/4 | CTL Midi | Rotex RO90 | CMS GE + Sliding Table | CMS OF Insert | CMS TS55 Insert..............Mirka Deros......Fein Multimaster 350 (iN YELLOW & ORANGE SYSTAINERS!!)

Offline TomE

  • Posts: 131
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #422 on: March 21, 2016, 10:11 AM »
Yep, and I seriously doubt that the board room or whomever is mulling over these 'problems' is going to put it up on facebook or forums for open discussion on the internet.

Offline rizzoa13

  • Posts: 587
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #423 on: March 21, 2016, 10:33 AM »
That's all well and good and your probably right what we say has no bearing on any decision. But it's very simple really; my saw is broken and a festool employee had made a comment that there would be news within a week. So im politely asking if there's any word.

Offline TylerC

  • Posts: 1084
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #424 on: March 23, 2016, 08:23 AM »
We have heard back from the Festool HQ in Germany about this topic. They have taken a deeper look into the number of repairs and the repair causes. All Kapex-related comments on the FOG were also reviewed.

The findings:
While the number of repairs on the Kapex is slightly higher than expected, it is not a systematic problem. Roughly a third of the repairs are related to the motor, and we are currently looking into the root causes. Despite the fact that this is not an unusual concentration, we take this topic very serious because we understand the trouble every non-functioning tool causes for our customers.

Right now it seems the failures are related to a specific usage pattern (rapid cuts in relatively thin pieces of wood opposed to slower cuts in big beams). To verify this, we would like to ask you for your help.

Here is how you can help: If you have experienced a motor burnout or feel the Kapex has served you less than a fair amount of time, please send an email to kapex@festool.com with the following information:
  • Your contact information (name, e-mail, phone number)
  • What type of work do you mostly use your Kapex for? The more information you can provide, the better. We are especially interested to find out what type of material you are cutting, understand what type of cuts you are mainly doing (rapid cuts in thin material oo more big beams etc.), and how often you are using your saw.
  • Information on the type of failure and what has been done to fix the failure (repairs after what time etc.)
  • Do you use a Kapex 110/120 volt model or a 220/240 volt model?
  • Purchase date or machine numbers if available

We appreciate you are taking the time to send us this information. It will help to better understand what leads to these issues.
This account is retired. Please address all Festool questions to @festool usa.

Offline Petey83

  • Posts: 94
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #425 on: March 23, 2016, 10:00 AM »
To be clear before i make my next comment I have a Kapex that has not had any issues in the 5 months that I have had it but that said it has not seen a lot of use thus far as i am a hobby user without a workshop and winter means I don't do much.

Now for my actual comment on Tylers post. A saw that is predominately marketed as a final fix and trim work saw having a potential issue with quick cuts in light timber is pretty poor in my opinion.

The total number of failures relating to numbers are maybe not as bad as this thread had made it seem at times i just think the admission that these appear to have been caused by the type of use that the saw is usually bought for needs addressing.
MFT 3 | TS55 | Domino DF500 | CXS | Carvex PS420 | OF1010 | OF1400 | Kapex KS120 | PDC 18/4 | CTL Midi | Rotex RO90 | CMS GE + Sliding Table | CMS OF Insert | CMS TS55 Insert..............Mirka Deros......Fein Multimaster 350 (iN YELLOW & ORANGE SYSTAINERS!!)

Offline GarryMartin

  • Posts: 1816
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #426 on: March 23, 2016, 10:14 AM »
With respect, that's not what Tyler said.

There's a world of difference between causation and correlation, and what Tyler (and Festool) are looking for is a larger sample set than the one they might have access to at the moment so that they can test their assumptions in relation to something that could be a complete red herring. That seems like an inherently sensible thing to do.

It wasn't an admission that there is a problem with "rapid cuts in relatively thin pieces of wood" if that's how you read it.

Offline bobfog

  • Posts: 838
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #427 on: March 23, 2016, 11:04 AM »
With respect, that's not what Tyler said.

There's a world of difference between causation and correlation, and what Tyler (and Festool) are looking for is a larger sample set than the one they might have access to at the moment so that they can test their assumptions in relation to something that could be a complete red herring. That seems like an inherently sensible thing to do.

It wasn't an admission that there is a problem with "rapid cuts in relatively thin pieces of wood" if that's how you read it.

Not an admission, but a strong suspicion looking to be verified. Which in corporate speak is as good as an admission.

So I think the previous posters comments are justified.

Offline GarryMartin

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Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #428 on: March 23, 2016, 11:18 AM »
Which in corporate speak is as good as an admission.

I can assure you, as someone who works in a corporate environment, discussing correlation with customers in order to uncover or further understand a potential root cause is not inherently "as good as an admission" that it is indeed the reason for something.

But hey, everyone is entitled to their view, and if you want to make the assumption that Festool are admitting there is a problem with the Kapex when doing "rapid cuts in relatively thin pieces of wood" that is of course entirely up to you. It's just the fact is, that's not what was actually written.

Offline Petey83

  • Posts: 94
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #429 on: March 23, 2016, 11:24 AM »
With respect, that's not what Tyler said.

There's a world of difference between causation and correlation, and what Tyler (and Festool) are looking for is a larger sample set than the one they might have access to at the moment so that they can test their assumptions in relation to something that could be a complete red herring. That seems like an inherently sensible thing to do.

It wasn't an admission that there is a problem with "rapid cuts in relatively thin pieces of wood" if that's how you read it.

With respect Garry i think you may have misinterpreted my post or maybe I have not explained myself well enough.

Tyler has clearly stated that with the current data set they have available they have identified a trend relating to a "specific usage pattern". The specific pattern identified is "rapid cuts in relatively thin pieces of wood opposed to slower cuts in big beams This to me is an admission of a potential specific problem.

I totally agree that trying to enlarge the data set by asking for owners with issues to contact them is a sensible thing to do on the face of it but it could take months to build a fuller picture. I cannot really comment specifically on if there is a real need to enlarge the data set or not as i am not privy to the current data Festool have.

As someone who works in IT service management and spends their days looking at trends and doing root cause analysis (expensive power tools and wood butchery is my weekend world) I can say that if i had identified a third of any meaningful data set as all being related to a specific item it would give me cause for concern. If this were an e-commerce business such as Amazon and they had 100 support calls over a week long period with 33 of those calls all relating to the same error message when clicking the check out button it would trigger more than an email to users asking them to ensure they let them know if they have any issues.

Ultimately I am not here to bash the Kapex, Festool or Tyler and Phil as Festool employees. I have simply stated that evidence pointing towards a potential issue caused by the sort of use the Kapex is mainly targeted at is pretty poor on the face of it and I personally would have liked to have seen a stronger response than a "Here is how you can help" process.
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Offline mastercabman

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Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #430 on: March 23, 2016, 12:06 PM »
We have heard back from the Festool HQ in Germany about this topic. They have taken a deeper look into the number of repairs and the repair causes. All Kapex-related comments on the FOG were also reviewed.

The findings:
While the number of repairs on the Kapex is slightly higher than expected, it is not a systematic problem. Roughly a third of the repairs are related to the motor, and we are currently looking into the root causes. Despite the fact that this is not an unusual concentration, we take this topic very serious because we understand the trouble every non-functioning tool causes for our customers.

Right now it seems the failures are related to a specific usage pattern (rapid cuts in relatively thin pieces of wood opposed to slower cuts in big beams). To verify this, we would like to ask you for your help.

Here is how you can help: If you have experienced a motor burnout or feel the Kapex has served you less than a fair amount of time, please send an email to kapex@festool.com with the following information:
  • Your contact information (name, e-mail, phone number)
  • What type of work do you mostly use your Kapex for? The more information you can provide, the better. We are especially interested to find out what type of material you are cutting, understand what type of cuts you are mainly doing (rapid cuts in thin material oo more big beams etc.), and how often you are using your saw.
  • Information on the type of failure and what has been done to fix the failure (repairs after what time etc.)
  • Do you use a Kapex 110/120 volt model or a 220/240 volt model?
  • Purchase date or machine numbers if available

We appreciate you are taking the time to send us this information. It will help to better understand what leads to these issues.
You may want to include what blade is in use
Using the wrong blade on hard wood can put lots of stress on the motor
I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 549
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #431 on: March 23, 2016, 09:25 PM »
Finally the first step. 1/3 of all kapex issues are motor related. This does not need to be a gotcha moment but more of a festool fixes the problem moment. What's festool opinion on the Tenyru blades, they do have a wider kerf. Should we only use the festool blades. What about the cheap Oshlun blades(same kerf as festool). My money is still on the speed control. I have seen speed control units on Routers automatically slow under load. I would like to be able to just lock my kapex at full speed and bypass the speed control. 

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6600
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #432 on: March 23, 2016, 10:33 PM »
Will this never end...

Festool is trying to understand the dynamics of this situation and is asking for help. Some people just seem content with pouring gasoline on the fire and ranting & raving about nothing.  [eek]

I spent 40 years living in the corporate world and no problem solving activity is a slam dunk. It's really easy for people to second guess every situation. It takes time to arrive at the cogent solution to industrial/manufacturing issues. To the uninitiated it may appear to be easy, it isn't.

Offline Green Koolaide

  • Posts: 114
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #433 on: March 23, 2016, 11:02 PM »
So they want information from its users?
Will this information be made public?
They are sitting on a whack of info with regards to failure rates,  serial numbers,  root cause.  Is this info not recorded when the tool shows up for repair or when it's sold and manufactured? Would you not have this for warranty purposes already? It's just now that Festool noticed that 1/3 of their failures were from burnt motors---yeah OK.

Guys,  do what I did and dump this machine before it costs you dearly.

Most of the ones I have seen on Craigslist was being sold because the owner just spent $900 on getting it repaired for a burned motor.


This smells funny.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 12:04 AM by Green Koolaide »
"Five out of every four people have problems with fractions"

Offline TomE

  • Posts: 131
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #434 on: March 23, 2016, 11:20 PM »
They already have owner info per registration of purchase and warranty.
I've yet to hear or see this info 'made public'.




Offline Baremeg55

  • Posts: 613
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #435 on: March 24, 2016, 12:01 AM »
Reading Tyler's response, he never stated the specific pattern was quick cuts in thin wood.  My interpretation is Festool is trying to determine what category the failures predominantly fall within, thin OR thick wood cuts.

While "provide as much info as possible" could or should include the blade type, I would have thought that would have been one key piece of info to request, as mastercabman suggested.

I haven't visited the FOG in quite a while, as such, I've been ignorantly bliss to the latest Kapex saga....  I've been happily using my Kapex unaware of this uproar.

While the FOG can be a valuable asset and resource, dwelling on issues and getting caught up in the lynching fever can be distracting in oh so many ways.  I'm not making light of the issues, I'm sure those that have experienced failures want resolution. Festool has stated the number of issues with the Kapex is slightly higher than their other tools, that hasn't satisfied the critics.  I am of the option the relatively high cost of the tool, coupled with the fact when there is an issue with a Kapex, it gets reported here and thus receives an inappropriate amount of attention, and this has skewed the perception of this tools longevity.

 For me, I've come to realize I would rather be happier spending more time with my woodworking, than logging onto the FOG and dwelling on these issues... 

Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 1998
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #436 on: March 24, 2016, 12:16 AM »
Tyler, 

I do NOT have a Kapex but wanted to give you my condolences... This is not an easy thing for you or Festool to have to deal with.  Things that come to mind are the Ford Goodyear fiasco years ago, the recent VW issue, "did a man walk on the moon" and "does this dress make me look fat"? 

There are no good answers mate. I don't know how to help you but if you want to send me a Kapex for testing, I am building a new house and it will have timber framing, 2x16 LVLs, 2x6 exterior framing and 2x4 interiors. I would love to try a Kapex out for you buddy.

I am becoming less and less motivated to join in FOG conversations of late as I am busy running a company, dealing with an ever growing family, constantly looking at Felder-group equipment for my new shop with the new house... Oh and trying to stay out of all the BS this forum has fed and bread lately. Moving my pops out of NZ and into the US and helping out with my house build has been a Godsend and a curse.

To quote the great scholar F. Bueller... "Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it."

Chin up all, chin up!

Cheers. Bryan.
People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?

Offline 7sec153

  • Posts: 19
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #437 on: March 24, 2016, 06:49 AM »
Wow, this is insane.  The only thing I can suggest to Festool to put customers at ease, how about a lifetime warranted on "motor" related failures extended to the original purchaser?  With the price of the saw being what it is, how many repairs are you really going to make, 50, 100 MAYBE?.  How many saws will you sell now with people getting knocked off the edge they are sitting on?  I always felt that some consideration should be made within reason to the end user so this could ease that hesitation they may have (justified).  What do you guys think?

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 465
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #438 on: March 24, 2016, 10:15 AM »
An extended motor warranty makes sense to me. Perhaps 10 years and at least one transfer to a new owner would be nice. Of course if the motor housing is full of concrete dust, steel filings or some other sign of obvious mistreatment, that would have to be taken into consideration.

Since the motor failings are relatively rare, Festool may never determine exactly what the cause is. There may be too many interacting factors to isolate a single cause.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #439 on: March 24, 2016, 10:37 AM »
  I am guessing that detailed information on the type  of usage e.g., thin wood, thick beams, fast cuts, slow cuts, all day long, once a week, is not commonly included in enough repair reports to have a quantity of data that is usable.

  I suggest that anyone who can provide info to Festool does so through the email that Tyler / Festool posted. I do not think that anything more will come from Festool until enough info has been collected. So providing that info through the email may be actually be helpful to all Kapex users. There are five specific points of information requested. I think that anyone who has posted a Kapex failure on the FOG should be sure to respond to Festool, hit those five points, and send to that email address.

Seth

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3886
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #440 on: March 24, 2016, 02:50 PM »
Just for clarification @TylerC when you say

or feel the Kapex has served you less than a fair amount of time,

do you want reports from people who have sent the Kapex in for service for any non-motor related issue as well?  I recently had mine serviced, as you might recall, for laser burnout and some alignment issues, but nothing to do with the motor.  I guess what I'm asking is whether it helps out your data set if you get these sorts of reports (in an objective, scientific sense), or whether you would prefer to filter out the noise and just collect data related to motor issues.
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Offline jmbfestool

  • Posts: 6628
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #441 on: March 24, 2016, 02:52 PM »
I agree with Seth.
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Offline TylerC

  • Posts: 1084
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #442 on: March 24, 2016, 02:57 PM »
Just for clarification @TylerC when you say

or feel the Kapex has served you less than a fair amount of time,

do you want reports from people who have sent the Kapex in for service for any non-motor related issue as well?  I recently had mine serviced, as you might recall, for laser burnout and some alignment issues, but nothing to do with the motor.  I guess what I'm asking is whether it helps out your data set if you get these sorts of reports (in an objective, scientific sense), or whether you would prefer to filter out the noise and just collect data related to motor issues.

Any and all information would be helpful. I'd recommend just mentioning at the very top that your message is not about a motor issue. If HQ wants to filter out all non-motor issues, they can do so.
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Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3886
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #443 on: March 24, 2016, 03:02 PM »
Thanks.
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS-EC 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/BT module • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline windmill man

  • Posts: 671
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #444 on: March 24, 2016, 03:45 PM »
After all the fuss ,concern and high blood pressure this issue has caused , I find festools reponce


Underwellming

It has done little to address these issues, if there are issues and if anything just added fuel to this!

I have a kapex,gets used every day , its never missed a beat from day one, it must be 7or 8 years old , so this dont rock my world but says something about Festools comitment to its customers 

Offline TylerC

  • Posts: 1084
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #445 on: March 24, 2016, 04:01 PM »
After all the fuss ,concern and high blood pressure this issue has caused , I find festools reponce


Underwellming

It has done little to address these issues, if there are issues and if anything just added fuel to this!

I have a kapex,gets used every day , its never missed a beat from day one, it must be 7or 8 years old , so this dont rock my world but says something about Festools comitment to its customers

I'm honestly curious to know what sort of response would have satisfied you.
This account is retired. Please address all Festool questions to @festool usa.

Offline rizzoa13

  • Posts: 587
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #446 on: March 24, 2016, 05:21 PM »
I'll answer for him as someone who is waiting to send my saw in for repair pending your response. Some concession would have been nice. Cover my shipping or cover my motor replacement. My saw is less than 4 years old and the motor failed. Whether that's a widespread issue or not, MINE failed. That shouldn't be acceptable to your company and some type of assistance in the process would have been enough to keep me satisfied. Right now im feeling very un satisfied with your company and I don't feel im being unreasonable to be frank.

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #447 on: March 24, 2016, 05:27 PM »
I'll answer for him as someone who is waiting to send my saw in for repair pending your response. Some concession would have been nice. Cover my shipping or cover my motor replacement. My saw is less than 4 years old and the motor failed. Whether that's a widespread issue or not, MINE failed. That shouldn't be acceptable to your company and some type of assistance in the process would have been enough to keep me satisfied. Right now im feeling very un satisfied with your company and I don't feel im being unreasonable to be frank.

Also being frank, haven't you already listed your saw in the classifieds for sale with a cooked motor, and now you are trying to work both both ends?  Just saying....

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #448 on: March 24, 2016, 05:32 PM »
My memory was correct:



Peter

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Kapex life span
« Reply #449 on: March 24, 2016, 05:48 PM »
I'll answer for him as someone who is waiting to send my saw in for repair pending your response. Some concession would have been nice. Cover my shipping or cover my motor replacement. My saw is less than 4 years old and the motor failed. Whether that's a widespread issue or not, MINE failed. That shouldn't be acceptable to your company and some type of assistance in the process would have been enough to keep me satisfied. Right now im feeling very un satisfied with your company and I don't feel im being unreasonable to be frank.

Also being frank, haven't you already listed your saw in the classifieds for sale with a cooked motor, and now you are trying to work both both ends?  Just saying....

Your response peter, appears to discredit the character of someone who has a complaint, or am I reading it wrong?

How does his exploring ways to offload it change the fact that people believe that the saw fail too soon?