Author Topic: Kapex is 60  (Read 5776 times)

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Offline glass1

  • Posts: 548
Kapex is 60
« on: May 13, 2019, 06:54 PM »
So Festool officially says the ks120 burnnsout at no greater rate than other tools. So please anybody post if your ks 60 has burned out. Let’s see how many. 

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Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2744
Re: Kapex is 60
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2019, 11:45 PM »
Nope.  'Down Here' it's all 240V. Also it is my understanding that the KS60 has a different motor design. Certainly the power ratings are different 1600W compared to 1200.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 11:52 PM by Untidy Shop »
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Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 299
Re: Kapex is 60
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2019, 08:31 AM »
glass1,

Just curious, can you point to where Festool made this dubious pronouncement?

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Kapex is 60
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2019, 08:55 AM »
glass1,

Just curious, can you point to where Festool made this dubious pronouncement?

I am not Glass1, but perhaps he was referencing reply 273 in this thread:  http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-problems/the-life-span/270/


Peter

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 1299
Re: Kapex is 60
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2019, 09:41 AM »
"So Festool officially says the ks120 burnnsout at no greater rate than other tools."

No greater rate than other brand mitersaws or no greater than other Festool mitersaws?
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Offline ChuckM

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Re: Kapex is 60
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2019, 09:47 AM »
I don't think tool makers, including Festool itself, have made their burnout rates public.

Offline Cheese

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Re: Kapex is 60
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2019, 10:21 AM »
No greater rate than other brand mitersaws or no greater than other Festool mitersaws?

Here's the quote:

"Based on the concerns mentioned in this thread, we’ve done some research, and this is what we have found. In the U.S, the Kapex does have a somewhat higher repair rate than the rest of our tools. However, it is still a very low percentage, based on the number of tools in service.  We attribute this slightly higher than average repair rate to the relative complexity of the tool, rather than any inherent design flaw or other issue. 

The anecdotal claims of issues mentioned on the FOG simply do not, in our opinion, create a reason to think that there is a widespread problem.  We are confident in the overall quality and performance of the Kapex, and believe that you should be as well
."

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Kapex is 60
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2019, 11:22 AM »
What I really couldn't figure out is why, given the Kapex motor cases shared in the Forum, most of them seemed to happen AFTER three years? Why the burnout not happened after 1 year or 6 years? How did that 3+ years figure come about?

Offline rmhinden

  • Posts: 205
Re: Kapex is 60
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2019, 11:27 AM »

Here's the quote:

"Based on the concerns mentioned in this thread, we’ve done some research, and this is what we have found. In the U.S, the Kapex does have a somewhat higher repair rate than the rest of our tools. However, it is still a very low percentage, based on the number of tools in service.  We attribute this slightly higher than average repair rate to the relative complexity of the tool, rather than any inherent design flaw or other issue. 

The anecdotal claims of issues mentioned on the FOG simply do not, in our opinion, create a reason to think that there is a widespread problem.  We are confident in the overall quality and performance of the Kapex, and believe that you should be as well
."

It would be nice if Festool released the numbers, it might help put this issue to bed.  Saying it's "a very low percentage" could be a lot of things.

I suspect that Internet forums like FOG can become an echo chamber.   Note, I own a Kapex and have not had any issues.

Bob


« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 02:41 PM by rmhinden »

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 548
Re: Kapex is 60
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2019, 12:18 PM »
I am more interested in the ks60’s reliability as this saw is attractive to me. As I have a monster ls1219 I would like a portable saw. The new ks 120 is 3 lbs heavier than the old a poor move in my opinion unless of course Festool would get off its ass and sell the ks60 in the USA.

Offline threesixright

  • Posts: 382
Re: Kapex is 60
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2019, 12:35 PM »
What I really couldn't figure out is why, given the Kapex motor cases shared in the Forum, most of them seemed to happen AFTER three years? Why the burnout not happened after 1 year or 6 years? How did that 3+ years figure come about?
95% of the festool owners are not on this forum. So, if you see here a lots of complains I don’t think it gives a good indication of rate of failure. 

I would buy a 60 or 120 in a heartbeat. People (users) do stupid things and then they come here and complain (you can bet they tell you only 1/2 the story). IMO this issue is a bit overrated, that’s just me.

If your unlucky, I’m sure FT will fix it.

I’m not into hardcore festool usage, but let me give you a example (different business).

Customer calls me, label printer is down, I asked them if something special happened? No no just a normal day. Right. After inspection a huge crack, they pulled it of the workbench, only “forgot” to mention it.

Just my $ 0.00002


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Offline ChuckM

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Re: Kapex is 60
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2019, 01:23 PM »
Snip.
95% of the festool owners are not on this forum. So, if you see here a lots of complains I don’t think it gives a good indication of rate of failure. 

I would buy a 60 or 120 in a heartbeat. People (users) do stupid things and then they come here and complain (you can bet they tell you only 1/2 the story). IMO this issue is a bit overrated, that’s just me.


It is true that the majority of Festool owners are not members here, and it is also true that complaints here don't tell us the rate of failure -- at least as long as Festool (which does have the real data) keeps its silence.

Yet, why users of OTHER brands of mitre saws don't seem to make this kind of motor complaint (in this forum or in other woodworking forums)? There are many more other brands of mitre saws in use and being ABUSED by their users, and they hold! We heard from Kapex owners who said they baby cared their Kapexes or even used them only for "delicate" cuts etc. and they STILL failed. Some even joked the best way to keep your Kapex alive is not to use it at all.

Don't get me wrong. I love my Kapex (4 years+ old), use it a lot (treating it just like any other mitre saws I used to have, except that the Kapex is fed with a  dedicated 15Amp circuit -- anyone who uses the Kapex with a CT extractor for the auto-switch function should think twice), but I don't like the cloud over its reliability. In another older thread quoted somewhere here, someone suggested a 10-year warranty on the motor (alone), and I think that measure would settle once and for all any worry or doubt people may have about this excellent saw.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2019, 01:32 PM by ChuckM »

Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 299
Re: Kapex is 60
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2019, 02:40 PM »
I find it interesting that Festool pronounced the KS 120 failure rate "not abnormal" about 40 months ago yet by my recollection the reported failures on this forum have seemed to pile up at a faster rate subsequent to that pronouncement...happenstance I suppose.

Offline Getmaverick

  • Posts: 135
Re: Kapex is 60
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2019, 03:40 PM »
I don't own a Kapex, don't think I ever will. I have Makita and Bosch. Now if one of those breaks down after a few years I will just go buy another one. If I spent almost $2000.00 on a Kapex and it burned out after a few years then I would be really upset and vent to everyone including here on the FOG. For the amount of money spent for a Kapex there is no excuse for motor failure.

Offline demographic

  • Posts: 521
Re: Kapex is 60
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2019, 04:18 PM »
I think I'd like a 60 but will wait till they do a cordless version as I'm trying my best to avoid buying corded tools nowadays.
Corded tools on uk building sites are very quickly disappearing and the transformers and cables are becoming harder to find. I do have my own transformer and cables but can't be trashed pulling them out of the van all the time.
The whole site infrastructure that the main contractors supply is changing and they want rid of powercables as much as possible.
That makes it more expensive for us but also means they won't be directly employing so many people.
Might be better for subcontractors like me then.

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Kapex is 60
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2019, 05:04 PM »
The OP asked about failures with the KS-60.

Can we please keep the conversation to that point.  If the conversation continues as an off-chute of the other thread here about the larger Kapex then the two threads will be merged.

If you want to make comments about the larger Kapex please post them in that thread.

Peter - Moderator

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 548
Re: Kapex is 60
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2019, 09:05 PM »
Thx.  I just want a ks 60. It’s a small saw that bevels both ways. 60 degree bevel, good dust collection, light weight and has a shadow line light. If it’s reliable I am in. But no Festool discriminates against Americans. I take it personal. It bugs me. I no longer care about the kapex 120 and it’s issues. It’s a goldy lox saw big but not big enough but too big to be really portable. I am sure some bean counter has determined with the bad rap of the ks 120 ( which goes way beyond this forum to my local retailers and production trim crews) that the ks 60 will rob sales of the 120 and the profits are higher on the 120. I could be wrong which I am often but still Festool discriminates by offering Europeans tools but not us yanks.

Offline Untidy Shop

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Re: Kapex is 60
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2019, 10:32 PM »
Thx.  I just want a ks 60. It’s a small saw that bevels both ways. 60 degree bevel, good dust collection, light weight and has a shadow line light. If it’s reliable I am in. But no Festool discriminates against Americans. I take it personal. It bugs me. I no longer care about the kapex 120 and it’s issues. It’s a goldy lox saw big but not big enough but too big to be really portable. I am sure some bean counter has determined with the bad rap of the ks 120 ( which goes way beyond this forum to my local retailers and production trim crews) that the ks 60 will rob sales of the 120 and the profits are higher on the 120. I could be wrong which I am often but still Festool discriminates by offering Europeans tools but not us yanks.

As has been said on other posts re this excellent saw (see my Avatar) its about sales potential which you highlight, but also perhaps  US regulatory measures and an erratic electrical system with different voltage to Europe at least. Perhaps FESTOOL will produce a battery version which might be easier to sell in NA.

I enjoy using my saw - it has so far exceeded my expectations. If it is ever sold in NA I am sure it would be a winner for FESTOOL, particularly in final fix, cabinet making and flooring trades.
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Offline Sanderxpander

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Re: Kapex is 60
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2019, 01:43 AM »
In the mean time, the guy who made the Kapex also designed the Metabo KGSV 72 Xact (sym).

Offline threesixright

  • Posts: 382
Re: Kapex is 60
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2019, 02:30 AM »
Snip.
95% of the festool owners are not on this forum. So, if you see here a lots of complains I don’t think it gives a good indication of rate of failure. 

I would buy a 60 or 120 in a heartbeat. People (users) do stupid things and then they come here and complain (you can bet they tell you only 1/2 the story). IMO this issue is a bit overrated, that’s just me.

Yet, why users of OTHER brands of mitre saws don't seem to make this kind of motor complaint (in this forum or in other woodworking forums)? There are many more other brands of mitre saws in use and being ABUSED by their users, and they hold! We heard from Kapex owners who said they baby cared their Kapexes or even used them only for "delicate" cuts etc. and they STILL failed. Some even joked the best way to keep your Kapex alive is not to use it at all.

I simply don't know. What I do know is when I wanna buy a new car, suddenly I suddenly it seems that model is driving everywhere, and that's of course not the case (recognise that?). It was always there I just didn't notice.

I think most serious companies have good intentions. If, for what ever reason, it has a design flaw, why wouldn't FT update this? They have to handle machines that are coming back (which also cost manpower and $$$). And there is really no timer in there that says "break after warranty period". I simply don't believe that. In these day and age, something that stupid  could back-fire very quickly.  The more logic approach to me would be IMO, if indeed there was a issue, FT (silently_ fixes it, deals with old machines, and that's the end of it.

I'm not saying the machine doesn't break, but its very hard to fix a problem that you can not reproduce.

Offline Jiggy Joiner

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Re: Kapex is 60
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2019, 03:13 AM »
My own opinion of the Kapex 120 is, the problem with failures is real, it’s not a myth.
I also know, especially from recent experiences that the issue isn’t confined to the US and NA, as I know of saws in the UK failing, and in both voltages too. One recent example was a reputable flooring company, cutting stock no larger than 110m. X 19mm in various typically hardwood boards.
This company bought four saws at various dates, two have been repaired at least twice, and one of them possibly three times!

The other two saws have been fine, one of them is the first Kapex they ever bought.
I also do not believe it is user error either, I am constantly thinking that the problem saws have protection built in, like many electronics do, for safety and overload protection etc.
I think in Kapex, this protection is there but, only just good enough to do it’s job for the majority of time, and one day, a power spike etc, might override the protection, and that saw becomes another statistic?
I don’t believe all the saws have the potential, I think they are batches that received faulty parts or parts not quite up to standard, possibly from a different supplier even, who knows?

I have seen these saws frequently mistreated and abused without suffering any noticeable effects?
I have had many mitre saws from various brands and no issues, and know many trades would say the same.

There is an issue, or potential issue with some 120’s, and I don’t think it’s right that Festool either blame user error, or refuse to acknowledge any issues. I’m sure this is the main gripe with many owners or potential owners.
Just honesty and clarity from Festool would go a long way in customer confidence and loyalty. Instead of smoke screens and piss poor excuses for a problem that for many does exist.

I have recently bought the latest 120 and I love the saw, and just hope it lasts. I don’t baby it or give it special treatment, I use it properly, and look after it, and expect it to last.
I know quite a few KS 60 owners, no issues at all, certainly no smoking.

Offline RussellS

  • Posts: 274
Re: Kapex is 60
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2019, 03:32 PM »
but still Festool discriminates by offering Europeans tools but not us yanks.

Festool is a German based company.  Not USA.  An analogy.  ALL of the USA car companies, Ford, GM, Chrysler, offer far more models of cars and trucks to USA buyers than they do to European or Chinese customers.  Are the European and Chinese customers crying and yelling about how they are discriminated against by those evil American companies?  And Toyota, Honda, Nissan have several models of cars and trucks they sell in Asia but do not sell in USA.  Should you and the other USA customers scream about how you are being discriminated against by those evil Japan car companies?  And Fiat/Chrysler sell many other models of cars in Europe that they do not sell in the USA.  Should you scream and complain?

Offline glass1

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Re: Kapex is 60
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2019, 11:41 PM »
Car analogies never work.

Offline threesixright

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Re: Kapex is 60
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2019, 04:42 AM »
Car analogies never work.

Look at Apple, ½ of their services are only available at the US and a handful of other countries ... ;)

Offline glass1

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Re: Kapex is 60
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2019, 06:01 AM »
Another poor analogy

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Kapex is 60
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2019, 12:02 PM »
To be fair, analogies are analogies. No analogies can be good enough if one is determined not to accept any analogies.

Offline threesixright

  • Posts: 382
Re: Kapex is 60
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2019, 01:26 PM »
Another poor analogy
Right. I'm sure many don't share your view.


Offline Alex

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Re: Kapex is 60
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2019, 02:20 PM »
Another poor analogy
Right. I'm sure many don't share your view.

Very right indeed.

There are soooooo many American products not available in Europe. Frustrating sometimes.

If everything were available everywhere we'd all be one country. I'm all for it. But I'm sure people like glass1 would be screaming NWO! One world guberment! UN go home!, and they're taking urrrr jerrrbs.  [tongue]

BTW, that's just tongue in cheek.   [wink]

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Kapex is 60
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2019, 03:46 PM »
Seems like this is going astray. If anyone has KS60 info that is actually about the tool , that would be great. Otherwise ...........................




Seth

Offline Untidy Shop

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Re: Kapex is 60
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2019, 12:34 AM »
Seems like this is going astray. If anyone has KS60 info that is actually about the tool , that would be great. Otherwise ...........................

Seth
[big grin] [big grin] [big grin] [big grin] [big grin] [big grin] [big grin] [big grin] [big grin] [big grin] [big grin] [big grin] [big grin] [big grin] [big grin] [big grin] [big grin] [big grin] [big grin] [big grin] [big grin] [big grin] [big grin] [big grin] [big grin]

If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values