Author Topic: Festool CMS discontinued  (Read 29244 times)

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Offline Dyldo Baggins

  • Posts: 2
Festool CMS discontinued
« on: April 29, 2019, 09:18 AM »
Hi guys. First time poster. Long time reader.

The CMS router table seems to be discontinued here in Australia. And I'm told it will be happening in Europe as well.

Is there something new in development? I'm wondering if I should hold off on spending big money on a solution in the short term and wait?

Thanks

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Offline six-point socket II

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  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2019, 09:28 AM »
Hi,

I can't say anything on new developments, obviously only Festool would know. But yes, the CMS is being discontinued. I've heard it doesn't meet certain new? requirements set out by (European?) lawmakers. But I can't tell you more, I didn't look into it.

Kind regards,
Oliver
« Last Edit: April 29, 2019, 09:32 AM by six-point socket II »
Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 583
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2019, 08:06 PM »
Gah,   this is something that needs more info stat.   I've been planning to buy one and even import parts from Europe.  Between not being at a stage where I fully need it yet, and the lack of metric routers in the US, and lack of some of the inserts, I've been holding off.  If any of this is true, that's now on indefinite hold.

If it's a case that they will be bringing out a new generation of it, and maybe make it more global compliant, then great.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 6475
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2019, 08:52 PM »
Maybe @TylerC can chime in about this.  [big grin]

Offline TylerC

  • Posts: 1084
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2019, 11:28 PM »
Maybe @TylerC can chime in about this.  [big grin]

Neither of the CMS tables have been discontinued in North America. (I can’t speak for other countries, but they were on the European websites that I checked.) We haven’t announced any changes.
This account is retired. Please address all Festool questions to @festool usa.

Offline Dyldo Baggins

  • Posts: 2
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2019, 07:14 AM »
Thanks for your input. Fingers crossed something new comes out

Offline DynaGlide

  • Posts: 493
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2019, 08:44 AM »
If they discontinue the current version and make it better that would be a shame as I'm still setting mine up that I acquired from Bob Marino a few weeks back. .however new models usually mean more money and I can't begin to imagine a $2k table for the set.

The CMS is one of those quirky tools that seems like it has one foot stuck in the past design wise. Kind of like the OF 1000 or OF 2000 before they were changed to the 1010 and 2200. I'm only using mine for the OF router module but if they could redesign the table saw module to fit the current VL and GE bases and introduce to North America. . [cool] I know, wishful thinking.
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Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4234
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2019, 10:32 AM »
@DynaGlide   OF1000/1100, do you have both? I only have OF 1000 but haven’t noticed any difference (in photos/specs) except wattage. Anything else?

There is clearly a huge difference OF 2000 and 2200.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 583
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2019, 08:17 PM »
If they kill it off, but bring the CS series saws to NA, and take the same chassis as the CS saws and make a router system from that, with the add ons interchange, that would probably be manageable.

I've started considering maybe going for a CS70 (smuggle it in), but that then leaves me without a router option.

I know a lot of folks don't get the CMS, but for me and I think a lot of folks, it works to fill a need as there isn't really anything else that is small, modular, sliding table, etc.

They have made a mess of it in NA, between imperial routers, telling folks they can't use the OF2200,  lack of inserts, it definitely could use help.  Even if they alter the idea a little and it was something like a CS70 insert and a OF2200 based insert,  where it is no longer a kit that adapts the free standing tool, but is dedicated modules that drop into a common chassis, that could work, especially if it gets around safety issues.   

Still, if they have killed if off in one market, it's basically dead

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1034
  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2019, 12:11 PM »
Just for the records, it is gone. Not longer available in Germany.





festool.co.uk / festool.com as well.



Kind regards,
Oliver
« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 12:26 PM by six-point socket II »
Kind regards,
Oliver

Online Coen

  • Posts: 456
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2019, 07:22 PM »
Same on .NL Festool site.

I contemplated buying the CMS extensions some time ago, but some were out of stock. If the whole CMS gets scrapped I'm definitely not going to buy them.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 583
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2019, 11:31 PM »
Well, that's a major blow.

I'm glad I hadn't bought anything yet.  Now it leaves the question is what happens next.  I was going to build my working setup largely around a cms setup as I mentioned above.  Of course Festool denying us Metric routers is what held me off from buying a festool router, which then nullified buying a cms, and general chain reaction from there.

Not sure what I'm going to do now, as Festool just threw out a core part of "the system".  I really hope the announce and bring out something to replace it fast. My concern is with the delay to the new world, it could be years.

I had a lot of plans for using this, one of the reason I bought festool stuff was to be able to use it in the CMS. With that gone, things very well would have tipped to Maffel.

I'm going to keep some hope that this is because they have a new version coming, maybe in combination with a new series of routers.  Bit frustrating as no one really makes an equivalent to a CMS for router setup.  Just random kludges of stuff. 

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1840
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2019, 12:57 AM »
Of course Festool denying us Metric routers is what held me off from buying a festool router, which then nullified buying a cms, and general chain reaction from there.
Its just a scale sticker. Get it and untangle your whole shop setup chain reaction.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2019, 01:06 AM by Svar »

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 583
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2019, 10:13 AM »
Of course Festool denying us Metric routers is what held me off from buying a festool router, which then nullified buying a cms, and general chain reaction from there.
Its just a scale sticker. Get it and untangle your whole shop setup chain reaction.

Per Festool it was no longer a sticker and could not be changed.  Secondly it didn't matter, sell me the router you make everywhere and what I wanted. No one should have to fix/modify a tool out of the box.  I'm not going to go support the decision to block metric in N.A.  I want to be able to buy the tool I want any day and run with, just like those outside N.A. can. You can change stickers all you want, the package/serial number still is "imperial".   Further it doesn't matter now, the CMS is dead with no word on replacement, so I'm not going to be buying anything CMS or router, etc related until either there is a replacement or festool makes some sort of statement as to what is going on.

My impression is when Festool discontinues, it means the product line is gone. If they were bringing a replacement, they would have announced something first and the old would slowly go away.

Companies like Festool need to learn that buyers plan out things on long timelines and interdependencies.  Soon as you start throwing wrenches in things like 1) random unit of measurement changes in some countries. 2) Sell a system buy don't sell the whole system in some countries (CMS was great example of this),  3) Tell some countries you can't use it as others do (OF2200 in CMS in N.A. banned). 4) Randomly discontinue tools with no idea if things have a replacement or not.   This makes it very hard for people who would buy to hatch a plan. It makes them very cautious to buy as they don't know if they will make purchase 1 and 2, just to have purchases 3, 4, 5 made impossible and thus leave them with 1 and 2 and be incomplete/incompatible.

We all know companies keep plans tight lipped, and aren't going to speak about a lot of things that come up. But they do need to understand they need to show people that they won't be screwed in their purchasing plan.  This is key when the core of your product and the whole pitch is a system.   You got tracks, and you got a CMS and you got the tools the interchange between them.  That's an area you can't just go kill off a part here and there.    It's not like killing off a sander or drill where there really isn't a system to it other than maybe the battery, but still the other tools aren't dependent on the one that just got discontinued. Plus you just buy one from someone else.  Those areas a companies like Festool can do more "whatever". 

Again I hope they are just in the process of an update.  Could be replacing CMS with the CS type system, that could work ok. Just need to tell people if that is the case. 

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1840
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2019, 10:52 AM »
You can change stickers all you want, the package/serial number still is "imperial".
What bearing does it have on its functionality? I tend to get what fits the task and my wallet and get to work. If you keep chasing perfect setup or matching packaging you'll never get anything done. Products get introduced and discontinued all the time, you need to make the best of it.
CMS is still available from US dealers, typically Festool carries parts for 10 years after tool is discontinued.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2019, 11:02 AM by Svar »

Online Gregor

  • Posts: 1382
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2019, 11:16 AM »
My impression is when Festool discontinues, it means the product line is gone. If they were bringing a replacement, they would have announced something first and the old would slowly go away.
It's possible that new safety regulations gave them similar problems (as with the CMS-TS) for the OF setup, so they had to change things. Same is likely for the CMS-PS plate where the blade extends upwards, without any protection, from where you're likely to collapse onto when having a cardiovascular event.

My guesses:

Something sawstop will replace the TS part, fixed inside a table similar to what they demonstrated the last months.

The CMS-BS-120 didn't seem to sell that well at all.
Likely history.

The PS plate can be OK for certain things but a bandsaw is way superior in both functionality and price/performance unless you need to saw inside holes.
Likely history.

And we have to admit that the CMS-OF is a quite dated design that had been surpassed by many, if not most, other available router tables in both in functionality and price/performance.
Possibly a new dedicated table, or history and 'go buy shaper'.

As it's Festool this dosn't impact availability of spare parts, so the ones that already have one will likely not be shafted that hard as with other suppliers when these drop a product. While it might not be good that the current CMS goes away without further information... I understand the reasoning behind it (desperately needing an update, both for security legislation and usability/precision) - we'll see what will happen.

Offline DynaGlide

  • Posts: 493
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2019, 11:31 AM »
I just got my CMS GE Set in April secondhand. Had I paid retail I'd probably be annoyed by this 'news.' I've used it a fair bit already and sure it's quirky but if you can get past that it is really capable. If they come out with a better version that's great. I can't really imagine what it would do better for routing tasks. A lot of the shortcomings I read about turned out to be overblown in real world use, at least so far. The 10 year parts availability is nice although there aren't really any wear items on something like this.

Like @Svar I've accepted any tool I buy I'll have to make changes to better suit how I intend to use it. My miter saw got a light and new hold down. My MFT table I scrapped the fence hold downs and went with fence dogs. DeWALT DW745 on the way and I'm already scheming a new zero clearance insert and modular outfeed table.
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Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 5845
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2019, 01:04 PM »
If I were FT ( I'm just guessing and looking at this logically or illogically depending on your POV)

I would add a router expension to the the new CS 70. Simular to te ones that they currently have which you can either use with the table saw or as a free standing stand alone unit. Im thinking it could easily be adapted to the CS 70.
 
So what would stop FT from adding a plate to fit their routers?
 well thats what I'm thinking though.

 I have been know to be wrong a time or 2.

https://www.woodcraft.com/products/tgp2-27-in-line-router-table-kit

it can be adapted to a bench top router table plus it has a alot of   Kewl accessories for it to, and different tops phenolic, cast iron etc.

https://www.woodcraft.com/products/cast-iron-benchtop-router-table-kit

« Last Edit: June 07, 2019, 01:09 PM by jobsworth »

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 6475
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2019, 10:55 PM »
Its just a scale sticker. Get it and untangle your whole shop setup chain reaction.

Svar...just take a deep breath and relax.   [smile]

DeformedTree has an opinion and you have an opinion...you’re both entitled to that opinion.

Besides, while you can change the scale on the router, you can’t change the indexing wheel on the height gauge. It will still index in .1 mm increments.

Similar situation to the HKC when I first purchased it, as it was marked in imperial measurements but it only indexed in metric increments.

I spent almost an hour trying to get my IMPERIAL HKC to index in imperial increments. And then I figured it out...the HKC was a gelded tool. That’s still a sore point with me.  [sad]

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1840
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2019, 11:11 PM »
Its just a scale sticker. Get it and untangle your whole shop setup chain reaction.
Besides, while you can change the scale on the router, you can’t change the indexing wheel on the height gauge. It will still index in .1 mm increments.
Yes, but metric is exactly what he wants.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 6475
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2019, 11:32 PM »
Ok, that’s fair...but I still have a knee-jerk reaction to Festool claiming that these are truly imperial tools when they can only be indexed in metric increments.  It's rather like driving an "Imperial" car with a "Metric" speedometer.  [eek]

I prefer the metric tools but if you’re going to brag about going imperial... then do so. Festool is still just performing the shell game. Just another black mark against their shameless marketing group.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 09:36 AM by Cheese »

Offline pettyconstruction

  • Posts: 533
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2019, 10:58 AM »
I feel that Festool will bring out a Saw Stop type unit to replace it.
A very portable and modular unit would do the trick.
Cheers, Charlie


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Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 583
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2019, 02:54 PM »
I feel that Festool will bring out a Saw Stop type unit to replace it.
A very portable and modular unit would do the trick.
Cheers, Charlie


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Saw stop or not, bringing the CS saws to N.A would address part of the issue, it still doesn't address the router side.  Thus why I think using the CS saw chassis but make a router equivalent could be an option.  Then have all the add on's interchangeable.   It would be overall more stuff ($$$) and more equipment than a user in theory would have with the CMS setup with router and saw inserts, but the trade off there might not be so bad.  If they are making a decision to ditch the interchange/adapter path and instead have a common interface to a dedicated machine, and then offer a saw, router, sander, etc all in that same chassis with tables, sliders, fences, etc all the same for them, I think people would be good. It would be less futzing around. And if power, dust, etc are all in the exact same location it makes it easy for people to swap stuff around.  I would just ask they make these core units the form factor of a Maxi Systainer, or fit in one. So people can pack the tool away with the systainers very nicely.

Obviously the loss of the CMS saw options in places outside N.A. isn't as big of a deal since those places have the dedicated saws. But they will still have a whole when it comes to router setup so I would still expect this to be an issue for folks.

Problem right now is if Festool is going that route, they better have something in the pipe fast.  Otherwise there could be a multi-year gap with nothing for that market.  Maffel might be happy about this right now, but of course they don't have anything CMS router equivalent that I'm aware of, or at least nothing in N.A.

Offline Sanderxpander

  • Posts: 392
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2019, 03:10 AM »
I have to wonder how many people actually use the CMS router option as a mobile unit. You can get cheaper and better router tables/fences for less money than just the CMS router plate kit and while the OF1400 and 2200 are great routers, they're kind of overkill in a table.

Portability seems the main advantage of the CMS over dedicated tables, even though many green goggled fans use it stationary.

Offline GarryMartin

  • Posts: 1812
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #24 on: June 10, 2019, 03:55 AM »
Portability seems the main advantage of the CMS over dedicated tables, even though many green goggled fans use it stationary.

Not *just* portability; the ability to make use of it in small spaces is also a large consideration as is the ability to make use of other elements of the overall "system" such as the Kapex extensions for infeed and outfeed support for instance.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #25 on: June 10, 2019, 07:09 AM »
Portability seems the main advantage of the CMS over dedicated tables, even though many green goggled fans use it stationary.

Not *just* portability; the ability to make use of it in small spaces is also a large consideration as is the ability to make use of other elements of the overall "system" such as the Kapex extensions for infeed and outfeed support for instance.

I agree with Garry - my small (ish) workshop needs something of the size of the CMS for both router and table saw use. I have seen no other small saw table that comes anywhere close to the quality, accuracy and dust collection capability of the CMS-TS.

However, if Festool are discontinuing the CMS that exists today you can be sure that something at least as good if not better will replace it.

Peter

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 583
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2019, 11:33 PM »
I have to wonder how many people actually use the CMS router option as a mobile unit. You can get cheaper and better router tables/fences for less money than just the CMS router plate kit and while the OF1400 and 2200 are great routers, they're kind of overkill in a table.

Portability seems the main advantage of the CMS over dedicated tables, even though many green goggled fans use it stationary.

Small/Compact are not exactly one in the same as portable or to say Portability is not exactly the reason some people want small/compact.  I think a lot of folks simply want to be able to nicely pack it away in a cabinet when not in use.

Still, I can't see I've seen anything like a CMS for routers.   You have the basic "table" deal you buy at the big box store that doesn't do much but hold a router.  Or you get into big DIY assembly of random parts that people build.  I would be curious if anyone can point to something that is the same as a CMS router setup, not a "buy this", "add this companies lift", etc.  The turn key aspect of it is a winner, and the addition that you could swap it with a saw and such is what put it over the top.  Just adding up various parts to build a nice router setup, I don't see the CMS as being much more expensive or more expensive at all.  It's not like you can buy just a lift and call it a day.  Similar to people who think they can build a MFT for less.  You can't.  You can build a thing for less, but it is a matter of what did you trade off.

I would say an OF2200 is over kill just to mount in a CMS, but that is where if they made a dedicated unit then they could save on a bunch of cost.  But of course it gets back to the whole benefit is that you still have a router to use for anything else and when you need it in the table, you have it. For a lot of folks the hassle of swapping the parts around is worth it if it means you save the price of buying multiple routers, or space savings, etc.

I'm just a person with a small house, and not much room for a workshop when all is done.  When I get my house done, stuff will either need to be able to be stored away for periods of time, or be something that is easy to resell.  This rules lots of big things are out, and DIY home brew stuff is out.  If I had room, I would just skip most festool stuff and get a CNC router setup I could fit a 4x8 sheet in.  Net cost wise it might be cheaper than lots of saws, routers, lr32 setups, and so forth.   I just don't have the space.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 583
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2019, 11:43 PM »


The CMS-BS-120 didn't seem to sell that well at all.

I was never sure if it was a N.A. thing or what that finding information on the sander setup was very hard, even when looking it up in other countries.  Of course my study into it stopped when I realized it took sand paper size that doesn't exist in N.A.  so even if someone took the effort to sneak the parts in, they would have to find a foreign source for sanding belts.

I appreciate them trying to make the most out of the CMS, but the sander setup might have been a step to far verses just buying a run of the mill bench top sander.  But like anything else, once you guy the chassis,  maximize what you can use it for.  I don't know how many folks own/use beltsanders anymore, so that combination of things might have made it a low seller. 

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 6475
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2019, 12:06 AM »
If I had room, I would just skip most festool stuff and get a CNC router setup I could fit a 4x8 sheet in.  Net cost wise it might be cheaper than lots of saws, routers, lr32 setups, and so forth.   I just don't have the space.

I hear you on that one...all this gear just adds up to more needed space. This reminds me of my neighbor that has a cabin in Wisconsin...a nice leisurely 1 hour drive from the cities. He needed an out-building to hold some of his grass mowing equipment so we built one.

Then he needed another to hold his collection of classic Cadillacs...so we built another one.

Then he needed another to house his Dingo and collection of 1950 Ford tractors along with his power tools...it never ends.

I'm attempting to scale down at this point...how much stuff do I need to efficiently produce a product?

With full CNC and hand held CNC (think Shaper) coming of age, how many of these tools are redundant?  I can wax rhapsodic about the old days when I needed 3-4 tools to produce a particular item or I can simply acquiesce to the fact that producing that same item now only requires one modern CNC tool and it will be generated faster and closer to the original specifications than ever imagined.

I rather like that...
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 12:24 AM by Cheese »

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 583
Re: Festool CMS discontinued
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2019, 12:48 AM »
I think this is a future companies like Festool (and their parent company) are having to address, and probably in part why they bought shaper.   A lot of tools exist due to history or function they way they due to history.  When it comes down to just producing the desired shape, there isn't a lot that a 3 axis mill can't do.   Can cut any 2D shape, put any hole pattern in, cut any recess, pocket, etc.  With router bits you get all the shapes you need.  Can do planning, thicknessing if you want too.  Need a domino groove, no problem.  Might need a fixture to put some parts on edge.

Probably not going to be someones go to for a cross cut, but you could set one up to if you really wanted too.

For those of us that design parts in computers all day as is, it's a straight forward change.  Software is one of the biggest issues, but that is getting better all the time.  With machines in the couple grand range, you really need to take a look at the cost off all the traditional tools added up.

Honestly if they killed off the CMS with no replacement, the Shaper Origin might get more thought.  Still, the "classic" tools will be around for a while as they work good when you just need to cut something quick and simple. Or when you need to take it someplace (floor, roof, etc).

For sure though, if I was going in business, or starting fresh on building house from scratch,  I would find the space and set up a mill, skip a lot of other tools.