Author Topic: Festool MIDI dust classification  (Read 7306 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Magpal

  • Posts: 74
Festool MIDI dust classification
« on: April 03, 2015, 06:20 PM »
Hi,
 
I recently purchased a Festool CTL MIDI in Europe. This is marked as a "dust class L" dust extractor. I have a couple of questions regarding the filtration grade on the MIDI compared to the CTL and CTM 26 extractor.
 
So let’s start with some definitions that I have found regarding the dust class L, M and H (IEC 60335-2-69):
-L (light hazard) suitable for separating dust with a limit value of occupational exposure of greater than 1 mg/m3 ;
-M (medium hazard) for separating dust with a limit value of occupational exposure of greater than 0,1 mg/m3
(According to the international standard )
-H (high hazard) for separating all dusts with all limit values of occupational exposure, including carcinogenic and pathogenic dusts.

So the class L, M and H are then defined by the allowed concentration of dust in the air if I have got it right.

HEPA standard is defined as (wiki):
To qualify as HEPA by US government standards, an air filter must remove (from the air that passes through) 99.97% of particles that have a size of 0.3 µm.

The L/M dust classification and HEPA standard are not using the same parameters and are therefore difficult to compare directly.

How good filtering does class L or M provide compared to a HEPA extractor? As far as i know the MIDI sold in Europe are not fitted with HEPA-filters. How are the standard filters in Europe compared to the HEPA filters? 


Festool (and other brands) recommend the following uses for L/M class:
Dust class L:
Simple, harmless dust such as house dust and materials such as soil.
 
Dust class M:
All wood dust and dust originating from repair compound, filler and clear coats, plaster, cement, concrete, tile cement and paints such as latex and oil paints or quartziferous materials such as sand and pebbles.
 
By these recommendations it can look like the class L dust extractors are not suitable for woodworking and other industrial uses. 
 
I have learned through this forum that the CTL and CTM extractors use the same bag and filter and that the only difference is that the class M extractor has an alarm if the suction goes below a given threshold. This should then indicate that the CTL26 is as good as the CTM in terms of filtration grade. That would also mean that the CTL is suitable for woodworking and industrial use as long as you keep an eye on the bag/suction.
 
How is this for the MIDI extractor? Does anyone know if the filtration grade of the MIDI is also as good as the CTL/M26?
Would there be an advantage by changing the standard filter to a HEPA-filter?
 
I can see that they sell both HEPA and standard filters for the CTL26 in Europe, but for the MIDI it is only the non-HEPA filters. What is the reason for this?
 
Are there anyone with more insight in this topic?

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6111
Re: Festool MIDI dust classification
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2015, 06:53 PM »
You've done a lot of research already and almost everything I read there is correct, as far as I know. I'd like to add that L class filters are just as good for wood dust as M class filters because they're exactly the same. However, European Communion rules now mandate an M class vac is used in a professional setting.

You've already drawn the conclusion L and M class have the same filtration. Since the CTL Midi is an L class vac, it has the same filtration as the CTL/CTM 26. No difference.

HEPA is different, and is an American system, not used in Europe because we use L, M and H classes. HEPA has a higher level of filtration than L and M. Theoretically at least. Not sure how it pans out in real life, but on paper HEPA catches the smallest particles.

So if you want the best protection you can achieve with a Festool vac, you should go for a HEPA filter. But it is not available for the Midi unfortunately, so if you want a Midi, you'll have to stick with the L filter. And if you want HEPA, you'll have to get a CTL/M 26. 
« Last Edit: April 03, 2015, 06:56 PM by Alex »

Offline Scott Burt

  • Magazine/Blog Author
  • *
  • Posts: 1995
  • painter/writer/educator
    • Prep to Finish
Re: Festool MIDI dust classification
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2015, 07:36 PM »
Are we sure that the HEPA filter is not available for the MIDI? I have used them in mine, but I googled it just to be sure. Must be not available in Europe? Like, NAIE?  [big grin]

https://www.festoolproducts.com/Festool-496752-HEPA-Filter-for-CT-Mini-and-CT-Midi-p/496752.htm?gclid=CjwKEAjw9PioBRDdpqy0-ofG3DgSJAACe5NEoAx8PmBfsdupUstXfcz_dMwKSox3Kb8A5jVcppNeLRoC5iDw_wcB

Offline mwildt

  • Posts: 425
Re: Festool MIDI dust classification
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2015, 08:20 PM »
Could be the similar scenario with hepa in Europe as here in the states. Like Festool cannot make claims of hepa unless it has been certified, why they do not sell the hepa filter currently.

Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 12038
  • MacGyver - My boy 2010 - 2019 RIP
Re: Festool MIDI dust classification
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2015, 08:35 PM »
Could be the similar scenario with hepa in Europe as here in the states. Like Festool cannot make claims of hepa unless it has been certified, why they do not sell the hepa filter currently.

I am confused by your post.  Could you explain about not selling the hepa filter?  I am concerned that I missed something.

Peter

Offline Scott Burt

  • Magazine/Blog Author
  • *
  • Posts: 1995
  • painter/writer/educator
    • Prep to Finish

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2744
If you don't like Signatures, just go to Look and Layout and tick No Signatures.

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry Into Values

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6111
Re: Festool MIDI dust classification
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2015, 04:37 AM »
The OP is from Norway, so I checked North European Festool websites from NO, DE and NL to see if there's a HEPA filter available for the Midi, and I didn't see one listed.

So to those who live in HEPA land, keep in mind there are regional differences.

Of course he could always go to the "black and green" market here and try to get one from outside Europe.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 04:40 AM by Alex »

Offline mwildt

  • Posts: 425
Re: Festool MIDI dust classification
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2015, 07:38 AM »
Could be the similar scenario with hepa in Europe as here in the states. Like Festool cannot make claims of hepa unless it has been certified, why they do not sell the hepa filter currently.
T

I am confused by your post.  Could you explain about not selling the hepa filter?  I am concerned that I missed something.

Peter

Sorry if I was too cryptic. I was only wondering if it was a legal thing. Now I could be completely wrong here, but they may have chosen not to sell the filter if the Midi is not officially certified for M class/Hepa in Europe. Guess it could also be a marketing thing where they want to push bigger models for hepa or M class. Or a combination. Again pure speculation on my end.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6111
Re: Festool MIDI dust classification
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2015, 08:02 AM »
The HEPA standard is not used in Europe, so there is nothing to certify and no legal anything.

I guess they started to offer the HEPA filter for the CTL26 here to see if people liked it. It does offer beter filtration, with or without certification. Only problem is it is a lot more expensive. The standard filter costs €37 while the HEPA filter is €95. Quite the difference.

That price difference makes me doubt it's a big seller here, and the high cost is also why I think they don't offer it for the Midi.
 
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 11:04 AM by Alex »

Offline Magpal

  • Posts: 74
Re: Festool MIDI dust classification
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2015, 02:12 PM »
Thank you all for responding on such a "boring" subject!

You've done a lot of research already and almost everything I read there is correct, as far as I know. I'd like to add that L class filters are just as good for wood dust as M class filters because they're exactly the same. However, European Communion rules now mandate an M class vac is used in a professional setting.

You've already drawn the conclusion L and M class have the same filtration. Since the CTL Midi is an L class vac, it has the same filtration as the CTL/CTM 26. No difference.

I found some data on the filters by checking the standard filters on US stores. The product info on both the MIDI and the CTL/CTM 26 standard filter states that the filter stop particles down to 1micron size. So it looks like the filters are the same.

So we could at least assume that the class L filter in the MIDI is as good as the class L/M filter in CTL/M26 then. And that the only thing missing from classifying the MIDI as a class-M is the suction alarm. But it would be really nice to get the definitive answer from someone in Festool.

I find it very strange if the MIDI is only usable for "Simple, harmless dust such as house dust and materials such as soil. " as i do not think anyone would buy a auto start/stop extractor for house dust and soil :) Festool also states that the MIDI extractor is "Best suited to smaller sanding, routing, sawing and drilling tasks" on their international site. This is two somewhat conflicting statements.

My consern regarding the MIDI is mostly about how good filtration it gives against hard wood and other class M dust. Since it is a class L extractor on paper it is not classified for this kind of dust. I am only a hobbyist and for that reason i dont really need the classification as long as the filter on the MIDI is providing adequate protection against hazardous dust.

Offline Magpal

  • Posts: 74
Re: Festool MIDI dust classification
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2015, 11:23 AM »
After using the MIDI for a while I am very happy with the MIDI extractor. The suction seems good, hose is nice and flexible, nozzle fits both my Bosch and Festools and the build quality is really good. The hose garage is also a excellent feature as it makes storage nice and tidy!

However i have noticed that there is a slight "hizz" noise from the 90deg hose bend. I can also feel a slight draft there. If i force the hose to enter exactly 0deg in to the bend there is no leakage, but if i let the hose rest in "normal" position (entering in a slight angle) there is a small leakage.

Have any of you noticed this? Is there a easy fix to this? I doubt this makes a huge difference on the suction, but it is always nice to make sure that everything is as it should be.

Offline Magpal

  • Posts: 74
Re: Festool MIDI dust classification
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2015, 05:26 AM »
After using the MIDI for a longer period of time i have noticed that i can smell the wood being cutted/sanded through the vacuum exhaust (pine and oak dust). This smell is present even if i am in a room that is clean, so i suppose it is not dust being stirring up from the surroundings.

Should I be worried that there may be a leakage, or is this normal? The dust extractor is a CTL MIDI. I tried to find any info regarding this subject, but there was not really any good references.

Offline Bert Vanderveen

  • Posts: 542
Re: Festool MIDI dust classification
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2015, 08:54 AM »
Smell molecules are very small (less than .3 microns I think), so they are probably not filtered out by your Midi.
Cheers, Bert Vanderveen

TS55 · TS55R · OF1010 · DF500 Mk2 · MFT/3 + TSB1-MW 1000 + VL + CMS TS55 + CMS PS300 + LA-CS 70/CMS · CTL Midi · RTS400 EQ · 2 x CXS Li 1,5 · T15+3 Li 4,2 · TI15 Impact Li 4,2 · Centrotec Sets 2008 + 2015 · PSB300 · LR32-SYS · RO150 · Kapex KS120 · 2 x MFK700 · RO90 · OFK700 · BS75 · OFK500 · OF2200 · CMS-GE … | Mirka 1230L P&C | Hammer A3 31 Silent Power · Hammer N4400 · Hammer HS950 (soon!) 

Offline Magpal

  • Posts: 74
Re: Festool MIDI dust classification
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2015, 04:12 AM »
Smell molecules are very small (less than .3 microns I think), so they are probably not filtered out by your Midi.

I see that you do also have a CTL MIDI. Have you noticed this with your VAC?

Offline Bert Vanderveen

  • Posts: 542
Re: Festool MIDI dust classification
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2015, 04:54 AM »
I have a acute smell sense, so I usually pick up what is happening with the tool on the other end of my Midi…
Cheers, Bert Vanderveen

TS55 · TS55R · OF1010 · DF500 Mk2 · MFT/3 + TSB1-MW 1000 + VL + CMS TS55 + CMS PS300 + LA-CS 70/CMS · CTL Midi · RTS400 EQ · 2 x CXS Li 1,5 · T15+3 Li 4,2 · TI15 Impact Li 4,2 · Centrotec Sets 2008 + 2015 · PSB300 · LR32-SYS · RO150 · Kapex KS120 · 2 x MFK700 · RO90 · OFK700 · BS75 · OFK500 · OF2200 · CMS-GE … | Mirka 1230L P&C | Hammer A3 31 Silent Power · Hammer N4400 · Hammer HS950 (soon!) 

Offline Saskataper

  • Posts: 278
Re: Festool MIDI dust classification
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2015, 09:06 AM »
Ok wait, what?


See that big sticker on the side? Pretty obvious that it's HEPA. All the CTs in NA are HEPA now. This is my new Midi. Picked up yesterday! But I also bought a HEPA filter for my old one.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6111
Re: Festool MIDI dust classification
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2015, 12:55 PM »
Should I be worried that there may be a leakage, or is this normal? The dust extractor is a CTL MIDI. I tried to find any info regarding this subject, but there was not really any good references.

This is normal, both my Mini and 26 do this. Like Bert said, molecules are way smaller than what the filters can catch but your sense of smell is sensitive enough to distinguish them.