Author Topic: Festool Precisio CS 70 Review  (Read 44819 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6056
Re: Festool Precisio CS 70 Review
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2015, 05:12 PM »
That was a sad day in Tool Town when Elu was absorbed by DeWalt.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Frank-Jan

  • Posts: 1043
  • Dutch Canadian living in Belgium
Re: Festool Precisio CS 70 Review
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2015, 05:53 PM »
That was a sad day in Tool Town when Elu was absorbed by DeWalt.

I actually have fond memories of that time... I got an elu cordless set with an 18 V hammerdrill and a reciprocating saw for 10,000.= Belgian francs (the reciprocating saw by itself was 18000 BEF at the time in yellow livery instead of the cooler dark grey and blue. [wink]

Only other elu tools I remember using was a soso palm sander and a flipsaw that was already quite worn and annoying (the elektra beckum we had at the same time was my favourite) (both got replaced by my first cs70)

Offline Frank-Jan

  • Posts: 1043
  • Dutch Canadian living in Belgium
Re: Festool Precisio CS 70 Review
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2015, 08:12 PM »
My first CS70 also had a fence that wasn't perpendicular to the table anymore, but in my case it slanted away from the blade; I was planning on sending it into service because it was having a few other problems (it was 8 years old, but it got stolen from a jobsite before I got to it).
I noticed it when I had to make a lot of thin rips, and was referencing of the fence instead of the table; later I worked around it by using wider material if I needed thin rips (If the stock is alreay thin; you can't reference of the table, because of the opening where the blade travels for pull-cuts).

I can see that in your case it is more annoying, even when setting the width. (if it slants away, you can just measure at the table, if it slants towards the blade, you'd have to measure at the thickness of your stock  (I don't remember by how much mine was off, but I'm guessing more than 0.25mm)

Does it make a difference if you use a different V-groove? (front or side)

The slot in the table is NOT a miterslot, but for clamping.

The accuracy has always been good enough for my needs, (I'm just a carpenter, not a cabinetmaker) I never had to calibrate the miterguage on my first saw. (which I had to do on my kapex after 6 months of use).

I also have a Nobex, I remember I really didn't like the accuracy when I needed to trim just a bit extra off an already cut miter. [wink]

If the fence bends when making ripcuts, you're putting too much pressure towards the fence (more than needed).  (I also have the ripfence that clamps at both sides, but rarely use it, because it's a hassle to switch from ripping to crosscutting)

I do feel that the build quality of my second CS70 is not up to par with the old one, I had to fix the leveling foot to keep it from turning inside the leg and thus lowering the saw; and at startup the blade shivers a bit (the cuts are still accurate, but if I install one of those green anti-splinterblocks, it will get damaged. And the free accessory, the transporting wheels were in a damaged box and one of them turns really hard (but hey, you can't look a given horse in the mouth)

(I wanted to send it back the week after I got it, because the festool rep would be at the dealer I got the saw from; but meanwhile my father managed to cut into the fence  [eek] and he  also tried to bevel the saw with a splinterblock installed I think, because there are teethmarks on the part you swivel up to change the blade; so the fact that the shivering was there from the factory became a lot less plausible)

As for the blade change, it takes a few more steps, but it looks a lot more comfortable than on a mafell erica. (Plenty of room, from above the table, and you can use a regular spanner on the arbornut aswell, in case it has gotten too stuck)



« Last Edit: August 08, 2015, 08:17 PM by Frank-Jan »

Offline aas

  • Posts: 123
Re: Festool Precisio CS 70 Review
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2015, 02:19 AM »
That was a sad day in Tool Town when Elu was absorbed by DeWalt.
I still use my MOF177E as my daily router - awesome machine. What puts me off retiring is it (as I would like a bit more power) is I think I will be disappointed with the replacement.
I'm still use many of my Elu tools, purchased at the beginning of the '90s - and they were seriously expensive back then - much more than Festool equivalents now!.. none of them have ever broken down!

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 5760
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Festool Precisio CS 70 Review
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2015, 04:34 AM »
Hmmm interesting post Frank-Jan,

I try to set my fence up so the rear of the fence is farther away from the blade then the front of the fence not much maybe .003 to stop kick back.

But that was using a American style Fence that extends the length of the table and not the euro style which only goes to the rear of the blade.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2015, 04:36 AM by jobsworth »

Offline wrightwoodwork

  • Posts: 410
Re: Festool Precisio CS 70 Review
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2015, 06:47 AM »
The idea of the fence going only to the back of the blade is, if you're ripping natural timbers when you cut them tension can be released un the timbers after the saw blade and if the fence is fixed after the blade solidly and the blade is also attached fixed point there is a chance of binding or a kick back. After the material has past the blade it is actually better to have no pinch points which can cause a danger to the user. The one thing you never really want to do when using and saw is trap the blade. So if you have a badly twisted or bowed piece of timber depending on which way you should place it up and towards the fence

Re: Festool Precisio CS 70 Review
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2015, 07:00 AM »
Michael: I am surprised at your troubles with the CS70. I had one with all accessories for a couple of years and once set up it was very accurate and solid. Are you running the LA rip fence? It is a must have (I think) and it was only lack of space in my smaller work shop that caused me to sell the CS70. The projects I ran on that saw always came out great regardless of size timber or panel. Set up took a few hours but once set up all the add ons could be removed and reinserted with no loss of accuracy.

I always liked the Erica 70/85 but the weight puts me off a little - as it did with the CS70.

We have a large format saw at the larger shop so I didn't really need the CS70 (nor the Erika) and with all the bells and whistles it was too heavy for on site work. I replaced it with a Bosch XC10 which did a good job too - but I no longer have it, I don't haul that size saw around anymore. If I had a medium sized shop and could not fit a larger saw I would still be very happy with the CS70, and in a pinch, the XC10.
Festool:  CS 50EB precisio set, Domino DF500, DF XL 700, OFK500 edge router, OF1010 router EHL65 planer, CTL Mini/Midi Vac, CTL 26 vac MFT800+1080 tables
DSC-AG Grinder,  RAS 115
Rotex 150, ETS EC 150/5 RTS400
Drills: T18, BHC18, CXS.
SysLite KAL II, SYS Rock.
Sys- and Sortainers galore.

Line up has been reduced with the introduction of Mafell/Metabo tools. Red Green and Blue do mix well in the shop.

Offline MichaelW2014

  • Posts: 276
Re: Festool Precisio CS 70 Review
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2015, 01:06 PM »

yes, very annoying that is slants toward the blade. as you say, it makes measuring difficult. i have to correct the problem if i want to do joinery or make bars for picture frames. etc. i have started to work on it. i just have to add height to the bottom of the fence itself.
i can do this with tape. it sounds bad, and it is, but i don't see a better way to do it. it's pathetic really to have to do this one a $2,500 machine. very upsetting.

It doesn't make a difference if i use a different v groove. Yes, the t track is for clamping. Clamps work well.
The nobex has really crappy plastic parts. But I don't use these parts. It is good where it counts most, on cutting precise miters. For me, I seem to be getting dead on miter cuts, very clean, no tear out. But the best manual miter saw, is, apparently, the langdon falls miter saw. You can find them on ebay. Lie Nielsen is considering making one. They have been talking about making one for two years. I will probably buy one eventually. I don't think machines, in my purchasing range, can cut miters as well as a high quality manual miter saw. (I would not buy a kapex unless I were a carpenter.)

Yes, it is possible i was putting too much pressure on the fence when ripping. I am just talking about the miter fence, not the LA rip fence add on, which I do not own.
 
I never received any free transporting wheels.  [unsure]

"but meanwhile my father managed to cut into the fence"  -haha that's a bummer. funny though.

the blade change does suck but I got used to it. i need a set of wrenches....
"These saws can chew up lumber like a beaver recovering from a hunger strike."

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 5760
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: Festool Precisio CS 70 Review
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2015, 01:08 PM »
I'm used to the euro style fence now. It's what I use on my CMS. I still have the rear of the fence about  mil out from the front.

Haven't had any issues with it.

Offline MichaelW2014

  • Posts: 276
Re: Festool Precisio CS 70 Review
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2015, 01:09 PM »
The idea of the fence going only to the back of the blade is, if you're ripping natural timbers when you cut them tension can be released un the timbers after the saw blade and if the fence is fixed after the blade solidly and the blade is also attached fixed point there is a chance of binding or a kick back. After the material has past the blade it is actually better to have no pinch points which can cause a danger to the user. The one thing you never really want to do when using and saw is trap the blade. So if you have a badly twisted or bowed piece of timber depending on which way you should place it up and towards the fence

hmmm, i didn't know this. thank you!





"These saws can chew up lumber like a beaver recovering from a hunger strike."

Offline MichaelW2014

  • Posts: 276
Re: Festool Precisio CS 70 Review
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2015, 01:13 PM »
Michael: I am surprised at your troubles with the CS70. I had one with all accessories for a couple of years and once set up it was very accurate and solid. Are you running the LA rip fence? It is a must have (I think) and it was only lack of space in my smaller work shop that caused me to sell the CS70. The projects I ran on that saw always came out great regardless of size timber or panel. Set up took a few hours but once set up all the add ons could be removed and reinserted with no loss of accuracy.
f
I always liked the Erica 70/85 but the weight puts me off a little - as it did with the CS70.

We have a large format saw at the larger shop so I didn't really need the CS70 (nor the Erika) and with all the bells and whistles it was too heavy for on site work. I replaced it with a Bosch XC10 which did a good job too - but I no longer have it, I don't haul that size saw around anymore. If I had a medium sized shop and could not fit a larger saw I would still be very happy with the CS70, and in a pinch, the XC10.

i was surprised too. some of my issues might be related to myself being somewhat of a novice but there is no mistaking the fence being misaligned, which i think is horrendous and inexcusable for such an expensive tool.

btw, i mostly make picture frames and furniture. i just started to get into joinery. so small mistakes, small inaccuracies are often big problems to me.

that bosch gets a lot of talk. my friend has one too. waiting to hear how he likes it.
"These saws can chew up lumber like a beaver recovering from a hunger strike."

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6056
Re: Festool Precisio CS 70 Review
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2015, 02:51 PM »
Michael, have you succeeded in contacting Festool germany already? Did they give you an answer?

If you have trouble with the fence, perhaps it could be solved if they send you a new one.

Offline MichaelW2014

  • Posts: 276
Re: Festool Precisio CS 70 Review
« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2015, 06:07 AM »
Michael, have you succeeded in contacting Festool germany already? Did they give you an answer?

If you have trouble with the fence, perhaps it could be solved if they send you a new one.

Hi Alex. I am still trying to contact festool. so far my retailer and the local greek rep. have been resistent to helping me. my german retailer wants me to bring the machine to my technician, which i cannot do as i do not have a car nor a truck. and it is obvious that the problem is the fence so why must i bring the entire machine across the city?

or i can send it to germany festool hq. so neither is possible.

i sent a message to festool international on friday. hopefully they will get back to me soon. all i want is a new miter fence. hopefully the next one will be better. the actual fence part of the miter gauge is not tall enough, by about 2 mm.

thanks for your follow up alex. i appreciate it.
"These saws can chew up lumber like a beaver recovering from a hunger strike."

Offline rizzoa13

  • Posts: 587
Re: Festool Precisio CS 70 Review
« Reply #43 on: August 10, 2015, 06:24 AM »
Well i wouldn't just want to send you a new fence either if i were them. What if the fence isn't the actual problem what if its how the fence is mounting or something of that nature. It's only fair that if you want them to fix it you let them look at it. The issue may be obvious to you but haven't not seen it how can your festool rep know the issue?

How do you get around town with such an expensive machine? You must have some way of getting it places.

Offline MichaelW2014

  • Posts: 276
Re: Festool Precisio CS 70 Review
« Reply #44 on: August 10, 2015, 11:52 AM »
Well i wouldn't just want to send you a new fence either if i were them. What if the fence isn't the actual problem what if its how the fence is mounting or something of that nature. It's only fair that if you want them to fix it you let them look at it. The issue may be obvious to you but haven't not seen it how can your festool rep know the issue?

How do you get around town with such an expensive machine? You must have some way of getting it places.

Yeah, ok, they have reason to be skeptical, but on the other hand, the technician agreed with me. And I think the tech should have come to my house and seen the machine in person. It's their responsibility to see that my machine works as it is supposed to--that is the deal we agreed to when i paid them $2,500 or whatnot.

i don't get around town with this machine. i don't own a car. i live in athens, we have a great metro system here. :)
"These saws can chew up lumber like a beaver recovering from a hunger strike."

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6056
Re: Festool Precisio CS 70 Review
« Reply #45 on: August 10, 2015, 02:09 PM »
my german retailer wants me to bring the machine to my technician, which i cannot do as i do not have a car nor a truck. and it is obvious that the problem is the fence so why must i bring the entire machine across the city?

That saw is a €2000 investment, I strongly suggest you bring it in. It is logical that your Festool retailer wants to see the whole saw and not just the fence.

You don't have car, but Greece has public transport, right? I don't have a car either, I've taken the bus with my CS70. Heck, I've driven the CS70 with a cart behind my bicycle. Get a cab, or ask a neigbour to drive you. There are many ways to get around the "no car" problem.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 02:12 PM by Alex »

Offline Frank-Jan

  • Posts: 1043
  • Dutch Canadian living in Belgium
Re: Festool Precisio CS 70 Review
« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2015, 05:28 PM »
I don't think your problem can be fixed with just a new fence; when mine was off, it was off the same amount with the standard fence; my mft3 fence, and the CS70LA fence.

My guess was that the origin of the problem was the saw itself developped som kind of twist caused by lots of transport and not always being on an even surface. (Never found out though; and in your case the transport cannot be the issue  [wink])

Offline MichaelW2014

  • Posts: 276
Re: Festool Precisio CS 70 Review
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2015, 02:51 AM »
my german retailer wants me to bring the machine to my technician, which i cannot do as i do not have a car nor a truck. and it is obvious that the problem is the fence so why must i bring the entire machine across the city?

That saw is a €2000 investment, I strongly suggest you bring it in. It is logical that your Festool retailer wants to see the whole saw and not just the fence.

You don't have car, but Greece has public transport, right? I don't have a car either, I've taken the bus with my CS70. Heck, I've driven the CS70 with a cart behind my bicycle. Get a cab, or ask a neigbour to drive you. There are many ways to get around the "no car" problem.

Yes, yes, it must be sorted out. It seems like my rep is talking with festool and i think they are nearly willing to send me a new fence. Honestly, i can't take it on the metro. That would be too crazy, even for me. I have taken all kinds of ridiculous things on the metro, but this is too much. I don't have any friends to call on to move my saw for me in this city that is largely new to me.

You are more brave than me ("cart behind my bicycle")!
"These saws can chew up lumber like a beaver recovering from a hunger strike."

Offline wrightwoodwork

  • Posts: 410
Re: Festool Precisio CS 70 Review
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2015, 04:11 AM »
Just a thought I not 100% sure how the fence mounts on the pressio saw as I don't have. I can't imagine it being that radically different to the erika. Is the surface that fence clamps to square. If not that might be your problem area

Offline Frank-Jan

  • Posts: 1043
  • Dutch Canadian living in Belgium
Re: Festool Precisio CS 70 Review
« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2015, 06:52 AM »
The cs70 has the same V-groove sideprofile as the cms and the mft3. (the upper part of the mft3  profile, so without the bottom T-slot)

(googled image, shows the cms and the mft)

(btw, I like your youtube videos about the mafell tools)


Offline MichaelW2014

  • Posts: 276
Re: Festool Precisio CS 70 Review
« Reply #50 on: August 12, 2015, 07:27 AM »
i'm not a fan of this v groove attachment type. seems to me that festool created this awkward system just to keep out competitors and force customers to buy more of their products (add-ons).
"These saws can chew up lumber like a beaver recovering from a hunger strike."

Offline greg mann

  • Posts: 1866
Re: Festool Precisio CS 70 Review
« Reply #51 on: August 12, 2015, 09:10 AM »
i'm not a fan of this v groove attachment type. seems to me that festool created this awkward system just to keep out competitors and force customers to buy more of their products (add-ons).

I see it differently. The v-groove allows for quick and easy placement and removal of attachments and far better repeatability than a t-slot. Many users have come up with their own adaptations to the grooves that are quite ingenious. The v-grooves have been around for quite a long time on some of the tools, including the CS70, and were added to the MFT more recently. This has created more continuity and consistency to the product line, not less. As an example miter saw extensions can be attached to the router table or the MFT for support when you are working on long stock. Is this good for Festool? Sure, but it is good for us too.
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6056
Re: Festool Precisio CS 70 Review
« Reply #52 on: August 12, 2015, 12:49 PM »
With the V-groove anything you add is laying directly on the table instead of hanging on the side. Makes more sense to me because the extension is now both supported and referenced by the table.   

Offline MichaelW2014

  • Posts: 276
Re: Festool Precisio CS 70 Review
« Reply #53 on: August 12, 2015, 03:54 PM »
from what i have seen, the attachment of the miter fence onto the v groove is sloppy. if it were precise then maybe i would feel differently about the v groove design. i'd bet it could be precise, but it isn't in my case. i like that you can attach the miter fence any part of the edge of the machine. but i don't like it at the cost of precision. i'd prefer a t-slot that borders the entire machine and accepts third party parts. that would be ideal.

i have also heard, from other users, that the rip fence for the cs 70 is crappy, difficult to adjust. if the outer attachment slot had incremental stop positions then it would be awesome.

so the third negative is that it is not a universal system. sure, you can always figure out a way to build you own add-ons, but i am not a machinist and i don't want to spend my time building tools, or paying to have them built, unless absolutely necessary. incra has a beautifully designed t-track system and fence with incredible repositioning actions. the v groove is nothing close to this despite the probably enormous manufacturing capabilities of Festool. The CS 70 kind of seems like an after thought. They can probably afford to make the most precise and intelligent mini table saw. Why don't they?

so i'm really not impressed with the design of the v groove. it's not so intelligent. maybe it needs another few evolutionary steps to get it to it's full potential--it seems half-baked to me.

i can't comment on other aspects of the v-groove system.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 12:46 AM by MichaelW2014 »
"These saws can chew up lumber like a beaver recovering from a hunger strike."

Offline DJW

  • Posts: 11
Re: Festool Precisio CS 70 Review
« Reply #54 on: August 12, 2015, 06:13 PM »
I don't understand why everyone hates the rip fence. It works great in my opinion, big knob sets it parallel to the blade, lever locks it front and back, with a simple but effective micro adjust, plus the sub fence which can be brought forward for rips in timber. Easy, accurate and solid.

Offline greg mann

  • Posts: 1866
Re: Festool Precisio CS 70 Review
« Reply #55 on: August 12, 2015, 06:24 PM »
I don't understand why everyone hates the rip fence. It works great in my opinion, big knob sets it parallel to the blade, lever locks it front and back, with a simple but effective micro adjust, plus the sub fence which can be brought forward for rips in timber. Easy, accurate and solid.

 You just described how mine works.
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline Frank-Jan

  • Posts: 1043
  • Dutch Canadian living in Belgium
Re: Festool Precisio CS 70 Review
« Reply #56 on: August 12, 2015, 07:51 PM »
I don't hate the ripfence, I used it extensively this afternoon when cutting rebates.

I rarely use it because it's a bit of a hassle to mount and take off.
With the V-groove and the coarse thread on the knob you can quickly install  and reïnstall the standard fence to switch from ripping to crosscutting.

Due to the micro-adjust, you have to slide the ripfence in from the side (extra hassle if the sidetable is installed) The extra long auxiliary fence on it is nice, but if you don't have the rear extension installed, (so the blade is in the middle position for ripping) and you don't want it extending past the center of the blade, it sticks out quite a bit towards you.

A lot of people say the standard fence is "crap, garbage,etc." and the CSLA is a musthave; because you can bend the standard fence out of allignment if you push hard enough. But... in most cases you don't need to push that hard towards the fence, just guide it smoothly along.

If I'm ripping stuff that's a bit unwieldy I'm glad I have CSLA; but the microadjust isn't so usefull that I would install the CSLA if I didn't need the extra sturdyness. (It's not like the precision of a rack and pinion adjust as on a stationary saw, more like the microadjust on the edgeguide for the routers)

I want to add a paragraph about what else I like about the system with the V-groove, but I'm way too tired and it's way past my bedtime.

Offline MichaelW2014

  • Posts: 276
Re: Festool Precisio CS 70 Review
« Reply #57 on: August 13, 2015, 12:55 AM »
I think I am going to buy the rip fence CS LA. Maybe I will be able to make intricate cuts on small pieces of wood for picture frames. Any comments on this, please?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 02:48 AM by MichaelW2014 »
"These saws can chew up lumber like a beaver recovering from a hunger strike."

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6056
Re: Festool Precisio CS 70 Review
« Reply #58 on: August 13, 2015, 04:25 AM »
I don't hate the rip fence, but it does have its flaws in my opinion. One knob to lock it in front and back, that's the theory, but when I do that, mine isn't straight. I always have to make sure both the front and back are aligned properly. When I tighten the knob, I can see the fence move slightly under the pressure. Maybe my fence has developed a flaw over time others don't have. It has been used by a contractor in its previous life.

I found the micro adjust totally unnecessary and interfere with smooth operation of the fence so I removed it completely.

I always go for the standard fence if I can because it works great for me, but when I really need the rip fence I use it without hesitation. Just remember to align it thoroughly and off I go.

Offline MichaelW2014

  • Posts: 276
Re: Festool Precisio CS 70 Review
« Reply #59 on: August 13, 2015, 05:03 AM »
"but when I do that, mine isn't straight." Eh, yuck. Now I am totally put off on the fence.

If we all could agree on some of the fundamental problems with the fence(s) then we could sign a petition or some kind of letter that we could jointly send to Festool to let them know we want a better fence for the CS machines. They might actually take notice.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2015, 05:29 AM by MichaelW2014 »
"These saws can chew up lumber like a beaver recovering from a hunger strike."