Author Topic: Shop upgrade help  (Read 2482 times)

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Online Joelm

  • Posts: 15
Shop upgrade help
« on: July 10, 2019, 12:22 AM »
Hello, this will be my first post here on FOG. It is an amazing resource and I was hoping to get a little bit of help/sanity check.

I'm fairly new to woodworking and am slowly incorporating more and more Festool tools into my shop. Speaking of, I've recently discovered that my 1 car garage/shop seems to be shrinking with every new tool or cart I buy/build. I think it's time to upgrade. My main workbench is a modified Ron Paulk workbench that measures 4'x2.5'. I put it on casters and really enjoy it but I am thinking of ditching it and getting an mft3 and mw 1000 to replace it. I understand the mw 1000 extension table will attach to the mft3 for those times I need to rip whole sheets off plywood. I may want to pick up a second extension at one point to make a truly large table if I need one. When I need the space I'll fold them all up and store them out of the way.

My next purchase would be to replace my cheap Ryobi router table on a home made cart with a cms. Does the mw 1000 extension table attach to the cms? One thing I noticed is the cms does not have a miter slot. I don't think it's a big deal but I do have an incra ibox jig that I'd like to keep using. I imagine clamping an mdf board with a miter slot and hole for the router bit would be a good solution.
Does all that seem pretty reasonable?

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Offline infer

  • Posts: 58
Re: Shop upgrade help
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2019, 01:39 AM »
I was in a similar situation and used an extrusion profile to bridge the CMS to my bench. No of the shelf solution available. 300794-0

Online Joelm

  • Posts: 15
Re: Shop upgrade help
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2019, 11:33 AM »
Thanks for the reply. Looks very nice! What kind of profile is that?
Unfortunately I cut rather large holes on the side of my table so I'd have to redo a bunch of the table to get that to work. It also is not 900mm tall, and could use a new top.
Attached photo is of the workbench right after I finished it. It has never looked so clean since.

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3860
Re: Shop upgrade help
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2019, 01:29 PM »
@Joelm Welcome to the FOG!  That's a great looking compact workbench you've got.

Have you considered other options besides the CMS?  I know you're thinking about it in terms of system integration which is the right idea, but another thing to consider is that you might get more bang for the buck by getting a more robust table that can be put on casters and wheeled out of the way when not needed.  Add in a a powerful Triton router, which gives you above the table adjustment (so no need for an expensive router lift), and you will not even have equaled half the cost yet of the CMS set, and so have resources for other Festools.  Other advantage of a router table is that you can build extra storage into it and essentially make it into a rolling cabinet.  Last consideration is that Festool's company policy is that only the 1400 can be installed on the CMS, not the more powerful 2200, and so you wouldn't have the total HP one normally likes to get with a table mounted router.  That said, if you just plan to operate with a single router for both table and handheld use, the 1400 is a good option.

My setup is similar to yours in terms of occupying one half of a 2 car garage, and so I've had to get very creative about how I use space.  If you plan on adding a bunch moire Festools, you might think about what gets called around these parts a Chaos wall, which is a shelving unit specifically designed for storing and accessing systainers.
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS-EC 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/BT module • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Online Joelm

  • Posts: 15
Re: Shop upgrade help
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2019, 05:03 PM »
Ear3, thank you very much for the reply. Yes I've also been mulling over different router table options.
300823-0
Right now I've got a very cheap Ryobi table that I had to replace the miter slot and add a dust collection box to. Inside is a dewalt 618 with a broken plug locking mechanism. I had dropped it when doing some routing by hand and the power plug does not fully lock into the router anymore. It's fine in the table but I need a new router for hand routing.
I've looked at small benchtop replacements but they would have a similar problem if to small of a table and I would have to put it on a workbench to use it. I'm not very tall so the router table becomes a bit too high for my comfort.
If I went with a dedicated table I'm leaning towards a cast iron table but then again another shop cart that can't fold up.
I guess the tables I can't get rid of are the large workbench that my wife and I share, my shop made kapex cart, my rolling toolchest with downdraft table top and my wife's scrollsaw. I figure if I can fold up my cutting table and router table I can afford space for a drill press and possibly planer. I'm not too worried about more festool tools atm, I've got a kapex, ts55, domino 500, CT 26 with the CT VA  and a new ets ec 150.

Offline infer

  • Posts: 58
Re: Shop upgrade help
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2019, 12:14 AM »
I found the aluminum extrusion here!
http://www.cnccat.com/index.php?id=2&productid=2879&catid=57&subcatid=&lang=en

As for the workbench height mine is 96cm with the casters. I bolted on a platform to hold the CMS to it’s side with the legs folded so both tops are at the same level and can move together.
I believe you could easily to that to your bench. But as others have said it’s not the most cost effective solution.
300835-0

Online Joelm

  • Posts: 15
Re: Shop upgrade help
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2019, 10:25 PM »
Thanks for the reply infer. I see now how it is attached. Nice and simple but effective. I don't think it will work for me though. I'm looking to fold up when not in use and reclaim more space.
I took a trip to my local woodcraft store and was a bit underwhelmed by their display mft and mw 1000 but decided to pick them up anyway since I've got 30 days to try them.
300936-0
I'm glad I did. Their tables must have been beat up pretty bad because they wobbled so much and were missing a cross bracket. I've set my new tables up and will live with them for a while before deciding what to do about the new router table.
300938-1

Im still l on the fence between:
-Cms
-Rockler cast iron router table package
-Infinitytools router table with a baby power feeder.

Offline Alanbach

  • Posts: 346
Re: Shop upgrade help
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2019, 10:43 PM »
Can you build it into your large workbench (that you share with your wife)?

Online Joelm

  • Posts: 15
Re: Shop upgrade help
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2019, 11:06 PM »
Oooooooooooo! Thanks for the great idea! Wife is on board too :D
It is a 30"X60"X1.5" solid maple top on a steel frame. I'll have to check that the top is level and fill in some dings but that sounds great.
Might take a while to actually implement but I'll definitely post an update when I've finished.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 11:34 PM by Joelm »

Offline Alanbach

  • Posts: 346
Re: Shop upgrade help
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2019, 12:35 AM »
Great! I’m glad I could help! There are so many great router table components out there I am sure that you will be able to put together a great drop in router table. Between Kreg, Woodpeckers, Jessem (and All of the other I have left out) you can build it to whatever quality standard that you like (and can afford😊).

Online Joelm

  • Posts: 15
Re: Shop upgrade help
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2019, 03:23 PM »
Thanks Alanbach.
After some research this weekend I think I have a plan.
I'll use my 30x60 workbench as a router table on the right side using an Incra Mast-R-Lift ll and cleansweep dust collection combo.
https://www.incrementaltools.com/INCRA_Mast_R_Lift_II_p/incra-mast-r-lift-ii.htm
https://www.incrementaltools.com/INCRA_CleanSweep_Dust_Collection_Combo_p/inc-cscombo.htm
I really don't want to cut up my table top more than I have to, so for the fence I'm leaning towards the  INCRA TS-LS Joinery System - 32" as it uses side rails to attach the ls positioner to the table.
http://www.incrementaltools.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=LS32-TS-WF
As an added bonus, I can add levelers to the workbench and align it with my mft so I could use the Incra ls with my tracksaw.
Only downside I see is the Incra ls system has a 7-9 week lead time!
Anyone have thoughts on this plan? It should work I think and I should be able to quickly break it all down and store it.

Edit: I guess I could save some money and buy the router table ls system and drill some holes for a precision dogs precision plate. The I could pop the ls system off the router table and mount it to my mft or mw 1000 extension table. This would save money, but not sure if it's a better way to go.
https://precisiondogs.us/collections/frontpage/products/precision-plate
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 04:24 PM by Joelm »

Offline Alanbach

  • Posts: 346
Re: Shop upgrade help
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2019, 04:43 PM »
I have never used the Incra LS system but I know that a lot of posters here on the FOG swear by it. I also know that they all hate the wait time but I am sure that time will pass quickly. The Incra Mast R Lift II is made for them by Jessem and I own a Jessem and love it. Have you thought about the router that you are going to use for this set up? If you don’t mind spending the money I would highly recommend Jessem’s Pow-R-Tek router with remote variable speed control box. I have it’s predecessor (which is no longer made) and it is a beast.

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1664
Re: Shop upgrade help
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2019, 07:11 PM »
I would drill a row of 20mm holes and go with the precision plate option unless you have another use for the TS-LS system on that table top. 
-Raj

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3860
Re: Shop upgrade help
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2019, 07:18 PM »
The incra is a great fence -- have one mounted on my tablet saw.  I didn't realize there was such a long wait for the order -- I got mine within a few days.

The only thing to watch out for with the Incra is that you need additional room behind the fence for the positioner. I don't imagine you'll be using the full 32" capacity of the fence with your router all that much, but you might want to spot check some of the measurements to see if you have room for when the positioner is at maximum capacity.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 07:57 AM by ear3 »
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS-EC 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/BT module • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline infer

  • Posts: 58
Re: Shop upgrade help
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2019, 11:46 PM »
Some 20mm holes, 2 parf achors and M8 t bolts are all that’s needed to mount and easily move the Incra LS on a bench.

Online Joelm

  • Posts: 15
Re: Shop upgrade help
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2019, 06:39 PM »
Thanks for all the replies, it was a big help!
I called up incra today and chatted with them. They did not recommend the TS LS system. They actually said I should go with 17" LS.
I've ordered a precision plate from precision dogs and will mount the LS with that. I'm going to try out the new parf anchor dogs on my workbench when I'm not using the LS.
Also bought the Mast-R-Lift and cleansweep.
Getting the 17" LS saved me enough money I might go and get a Of 1010 to do my handheld routing. I'll be using my dewalt 618 in the table for now. If/when it dies I'll get a beefier router. I could use the 618 for handheld routing but the power cord does not lock in place any more and will randomly turn off when I use it by hand.

Offline Alanbach

  • Posts: 346
Re: Shop upgrade help
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2019, 08:12 PM »
So did the change to the 17” LS shorten your waiting time?

Online Joelm

  • Posts: 15
Re: Shop upgrade help
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2019, 03:18 AM »
Alanbach, no the waiting is still super long. At least my router lift will be here this week.
This leads me to my next question. In preparation for my router table I was cleaning up my shop and put my current project away. I went and checked tonight just how flat my butcher block table top was and it is bowed about 1/16" in the middle.
So now I'm looking to replace a 30"x60" top before I get my router lift. What would you guys suggest?
I'm thinking a good 3/4 plywood with 3/4 cabinet grade melamine on top with a hardwood edge all around. I did a quick search for counter tops at big box stores but they seem to only sell them 2' wide.

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3860
Re: Shop upgrade help
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2019, 09:49 AM »
If you feel comfortable, you might also try flattening the table yourself.  It can be done by hand with a no. 7 or no. 8:

https://www.lie-nielsen.com/product/standard-bench-planes/no.-8-jointer-plane?node=4171



Or you could make a router sled and attach some sacrificial fences.



Alanbach, no the waiting is still super long. At least my router lift will be here this week.
This leads me to my next question. In preparation for my router table I was cleaning up my shop and put my current project away. I went and checked tonight just how flat my butcher block table top was and it is bowed about 1/16" in the middle.
So now I'm looking to replace a 30"x60" top before I get my router lift. What would you guys suggest?
I'm thinking a good 3/4 plywood with 3/4 cabinet grade melamine on top with a hardwood edge all around. I did a quick search for counter tops at big box stores but they seem to only sell them 2' wide.
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS-EC 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • CT 26 w/BT module • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • MFT/3

Offline Alanbach

  • Posts: 346
Re: Shop upgrade help
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2019, 11:05 AM »
You could use good quality Baltic birch plywood and laminate it to melamine. You could use two layers of good Baltic birch and laminate something slick to it. You can buy pre-made laminated butcher block tops in 30x60 but they will be pricey and there is no guarantee that they will be dead flat. As suggested above you could flatten yours. You could also try to find a piece of phenolic coated plywood that is large enough and laminate that to another piece of Baltic birch. Both Woodpecker and Jessem (and I’m sure there are others) make laminated phenolic router table tops that are very nice and they already have t tracks, etc. installed. Again, they ain’t cheap and you have to figure out if you could let them into your bench top and create a seamless flat transition.

If it was me I would probably try to find a well made router table insert (probably one of the ones designed to be dropped into table saw extension tables) and then just deal with flattening to that. You should have a lot less deflection once you take a chunk out of the middle to make room for the insert. You might be able to add some angle iron or other structure underneath to unify it all. You just have to make sure that does not get in the way of the lift or your dust collection box.

Regardless, IMO, in all router table construction maintaining flatness over time is a big issue that should be addressed structurally in the overall design.

Online Joelm

  • Posts: 15
Re: Shop upgrade help
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2019, 08:14 PM »
Thanks for the feedback. Finding out the table wasn't flat was an unpleasant surprise but I've wanted to start working with slabs soon. So this is a good time to build a flattening jig and my Amana router bit was just delivered.

If a moderator sees this, maybe they could move this thread to the workshop discussion.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 10:53 PM by Joelm »

Online Joelm

  • Posts: 15
Re: Shop upgrade help
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2019, 12:28 PM »
Just thought I'd post an update.
I was getting the last of my supplies for flattening my workbench yesterday and saw a kapex sitting on the ug stand. I'd never seen the stand in person before and was extremely excited with how compact it is. When I got home I took measurements and compared them to my current kapex stand and have decided to get a UG-KA-Set to help make my shop become even more compact.