Author Topic: I am done  (Read 22478 times)

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Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1910
Re: I am done
« Reply #120 on: September 30, 2017, 08:32 PM »
It's posts like these that give a new user like me pause buying into such an expensive tool brand. Hopefully things can turn around between Dovetail and erock (one of the brands biggest supporters) seemingly being fed up I'm second guessing things.

My reason for buying into the brand is to be able to work in a smaller more portable fashion and indoors if I need to. If I had a big workshop with all the bells and whistles I probably wouldn't be as motivated.

Can't say what the true intent of the Dovetail65 was in posting this topic, but it seems that one of his goals was to generate a huge amount of negative criticism and bad feelings. He certainly has accomplished that.

Not all Festool are the best tools on the market. Some, like the Domino, CT's, MFT, and Vacsys are high quality and either are or were unique (my opinion; others apparently disagree).

Before any new buyer of Festool takes this thread to heart, they should read all the other posts which support the high quality and great performance of these tools. Will some tools fail? Sure. All companies have some percentage of tools that fail. Is there a higher failure rate than in the past? While I don't know that, others apparently do, but I'm not sure where they obtained the stats to make this comment.

All I'm saying is that, for me, Festool is like any other company when buying tools. I buy and use their tools because they are high quality and, for me, they appear to perform well when I use them. If they stop performing well, I will stop buying their tools and, for now, I have all the tools I can use.

If you don't feel tools perform well for you, no matter what company makes them, don't buy their tools anymore. All I can say is my experience with Festool, whether the Domino, sanders, the TS55, MFT, VacSys, routers, CT, has been exceptional; much better than most other tool brands. Take it for what it's worth.
Randy

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Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: I am done
« Reply #121 on: September 30, 2017, 09:12 PM »
...
Can't say what the true intent of the Dovetail65 was in posting this topic, but it seems that one of his goals was to generate a huge amount of negative criticism and bad feelings. He certainly has accomplished that.
...

If you read his opening post, it is possible that it was more like frustration and venting.
It seems conceptually hard post the criticism on the topic in a positive way.

Usually the term for this is constructive criticism, if the feedback is "Taken on-board" and used to improve things.

If the message is not well received, then going for discrediting the messenger is a common strategy.
Why would you choose to step into that role?
(Even if it was the intent, it seems a of a risk as being perceived as judgemental)
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 09:15 PM by Holmz »

Offline Rip Van Winkle

  • Posts: 301
Re: I am done
« Reply #122 on: September 30, 2017, 09:55 PM »
Maybe Festool should make some giant light gray foam blocks, shaped like a systainer, with a giant Festool label in lime green printed on them, so frustrated customers can kick them around, to burn off some cortisol, for when Festool frustrates them.

At least this way you wouldn't risk damaging a plastic box that now costs $70 or more to replace.

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1910
Re: I am done
« Reply #123 on: October 01, 2017, 10:22 AM »
...
Can't say what the true intent of the Dovetail65 was in posting this topic, but it seems that one of his goals was to generate a huge amount of negative criticism and bad feelings. He certainly has accomplished that.
...

If you read his opening post, it is possible that it was more like frustration and venting.
It seems conceptually hard post the criticism on the topic in a positive way.

Usually the term for this is constructive criticism, if the feedback is "Taken on-board" and used to improve things.

If the message is not well received, then going for discrediting the messenger is a common strategy.
Why would you choose to step into that role?
(Even if it was the intent, it seems a of a risk as being perceived as judgemental)
None of it seemed constructive nor was the ensuing posts by other constructive. My experience with Festool has be overwhelmingly positive. It seems others have not. OK. If your tools don't work have them fixed under warranty. If they don't get fixed or they are out of warranty then don't buy them anymore if you don't feel they performed as you expected. Very simple. Just don't make it seem as if it's the whole company or everyone's tools which are bad. They aren't. It's not what the FOG is supposed to be and why people are down on the FOG; at least one reason.
Randy

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6079
Re: I am done
« Reply #124 on: October 01, 2017, 10:37 AM »
My experience with the tools is positive too.

I mean, sometimes there's a tool that's a bit less, but in general I find they are all very good performing and very durable. I like my Festools and will keep using them.

But ..... the plug-it cord is a complete failure, and it seems to be the final straw that triggered Dovetail to start this rant, and I must agree with him on this, the plug-it cord is simply too weak and not durable. They should really redesign this and make it better. I really dislike having to buy a new cord or socket over and over again.

And ..... I do dislike Festool's mentality as a company. The service? People here rave about it, but my experience with Festool here in Holland leaves me with a very foul taste in my mouth. Every single contact out of 5 was a negative experience.

I have spend many thousands of euros on Festools, accessories and consumables over the last 9 years, but I haven't bought anything Festool for the last 2 years. Except for some spare parts, and of course, the ever failing plug-it cords. I keep the tools going because they are made very well, but I prefer not to have to do anything with the company again or spend my money on them.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: I am done
« Reply #125 on: October 01, 2017, 10:49 AM »
Recently in the USA, as is shown by posts on FOG, there have been some service issues . But prior to that the USA service has been stellar! I know that the service in other countries  is not necessarily the same as in the USA either currently or previously.

Seth

Offline BigfootBuilder

  • Posts: 74
    • California Sustainable Builders
Re: I am done
« Reply #126 on: October 01, 2017, 12:51 PM »
Sure there have been some positive posts and some negative posts, and some neutral peacekeeping posts. I think this simply reflects both our personal experiences of festool use, and likely our personal approaches to life and inner psychological workings.

We all need to be able to feel however we want to feel about whatever we want to feel it about. Every post should not be positive! If they were I wouldn't participate in any discussions here (not that I do much but I wanna weigh in too here). The last issue I was having with the (absolutely deplorable) Carvex, I was venting my many frustrations and the last person to comment on the thread chastised me for being so disappointed and taking my disappointments to the FOG. Where else should I take them? Festool wouldn't answer or return my multiple messages about the issue I was having with the Carvex. Thread in question: http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/carvex-psb-420-ebq-reviewthoughts-(not-impressed)/msg511972/#msg511972

Festool has changed my whole approach to woodworking. I'm pretty thankful for that. The DE system generally works so well (except what the eff is up with the new alien maze hose attachment detail? I want nothing to do with that, just let me slip it in, or over - with ribs - and we're good). I've quickly come to realize, however, that not everything they make is high quality, and that better options exist out there that you simply have to decide if the issues are worth the benefits. No? Find something else. Yes? Deal with the issues. I've been pretty disappointed with many things about festool in my short year and a half of ownership (I'm no stranger to woodworking/construction though), and will really be researching my best options before taking out my wallet. They will not be getting much more of my money either because I don't feel the quality deserves the price tag, I think some things are gimmicky (CARVEX!) and lacking the foundations for the flair, and I have not gotten any phone support when I've called. I think they largely are not contractor/professional grade especially for the high costs, with some exceptions.

It was said either in this thread or another that festool users are a picky bitchy bunch to satisfy. I wouldn't even argue with that, but I would say that we're allowed to be picky and expect full performance and support for the THOUSANDS of dollars many of us have invested. Again, I know some of you have had positive support, and many negative. Mine had been negative and so that is my perspective.

I thank the OP for opening this up because I for one get tired of some of the brand defensiveness that can show up around here, it's no attack on anyone's identity for someone having poor experiences with these tools. It I think is largely meant to be constructive feedback knowing that festool operates this forum, so we hope to be heard in our criticisms. But then we get no reciprocity back from them, and that might leave some with the feeling of yes, "I am done."

Offline Dan-

  • Posts: 32
Re: I am done
« Reply #127 on: October 04, 2017, 09:19 PM »
Let's address the erock thing.

But first, about me. At this point, I own the following: 1400 router (like), 1010 router (ok), ts55 (just ripped some 8/4 cherry), ct36 (great), mfs (makes dust collection actually work with ts55), cms router table thing (sometimes wish i'd gone incra route), cxs drill (the key here is the lowest torque setting, which most seem to miss), 2015 US installers kit (lol centrotec), df500 domino (awesome), carvex (waste of money), ets125 (better than you'd think for finishing), pro5 (some day i'll use this),  RTS (some days wish i'd bought the DTS, but mostly like it), cleaning thingy with metal broom (oddly enough, this is my most used festool), plus some extra systainers. I might be forgetting something, but I'm not going to walk outside to check. I also own a full set of Milwaukee M12 Fuel tools. If I needed 18v power, I'd go M18 Fuel. Whatever. (This is the way to go for cordless tools; it's a true system. I hate that my CXS battery is only useful for the CXS.) I have a Laguna bandsaw and Laguna PFlux3 dust collector. Also a bunch of Veritas/LV stuff.

Back to erock...
He made really great videos on the level of Bryce's (spelling?). His set of frameless cabinet videos are almost on the same level as Paul Sellers' workbench instructions. erock stopped posting right around the time that the Wood Whisperer moved over to more mass market tools. The reason the Wood Whisperer guy mentioned, quite politely, was that Festool had made a choice to not pay for "brand ambassadors." If you ever read about the business side of social media, you'd know that there are a ton of women (and probably men) who pretend to love certain products on instragram, etc, in return for "patronage." Hopefully you can connect the dots here.

In regard to the forum, it seems like contribution has dropped significantly, which is odd considering that Festool adoption is probably up over a year or two ago. Part of the problem is clearly Festool's neglect, as even Stickies mentioning North American launches remain up despite being years out of date. Leaving those outdated posts up shows that Festool does not care about "broken windows." Other questions go unanswered, even when they are not complaints about product quality. This neglect communicates quite clearly that Festool does not care. If this is not the case, then maybe it should change. The weird thing is that other forums are not picking up the slack. It's not like Sawmill Creek, where many members also post, has anything like FOG. There's clearly an opportunity and an upside to improving FOG, even to bringing it back to where it was a few years back. I probably wouldn't have bought so much stuff hadn't this forum existed then.

Dan

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 443
Re: I am done
« Reply #128 on: October 17, 2017, 04:41 PM »
If Dovetial is unhappy with his purchases, he has the right to be unhappy with them to to post his review.  As long as it’s a honest account from someone who owns the tools, it’s valuable information.

I’ll admit I’m a little nervous about buying the big ticket Festool items.  Given the price of the products they should be backed by a 10 year warranty.  That would resolve a lot of these issues.
 
Festool CT Midi, Festool ETS 125, DF 700 Domino Coming Soon

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: I am done
« Reply #129 on: October 17, 2017, 06:10 PM »
...
I’ll admit I’m a little nervous about buying the big ticket Festool items.  Given the price of the products they should be backed by a 10 year warranty.  That would resolve a lot of these issues.

1) Buyer beware.
2) the warrenty has nothing to do with the price.

Even if a tool did have a 10 year warrenty and was expensive, would not make it a good tool. (Nor a bad tool.)
So while a warrenty may help, a warrenty does not make the tool's overall design better.

Offline McNally Family

  • Posts: 615
  • Festool Atomic Phaser Particle Blaster (APPB Set)
Re: I am done
« Reply #130 on: October 17, 2017, 06:17 PM »
...
I’ll admit I’m a little nervous about buying the big ticket Festool items.  Given the price of the products they should be backed by a 10 year warranty.  That would resolve a lot of these issues.

1) Buyer beware.
2) the warrenty has nothing to do with the price.

Even if a tool did have a 10 year warrenty and was expensive, would not make it a good tool. (Nor a bad tool.)
So while a warrenty may help, a warrenty does not make the tool's overall design better.

Real life example = KIA
GREEN: In order of purchase = | CT26  |  RS 2 E | Hose w/ Sleeve 3.5m | 115mm X 226mm Hand Sanding Block | 80mm X 133mm Hand Sanding Block | HSK D21.5 5m hose | CT Boom Arm Bundle Set | 1080 Plate for custom MFT | OF 1400 EQ Router (metric) w/accessories | SYS-Rock BR10 | Cordless Sander RTSC 400 Set |  Cordless Delta Sander DTSC 400 Basic | Linear Sander LS 130 | PDC 18/4 set | CXS  2.6Ah Set | Installer Cleaning Set (2018 version) |  New style Festool hose D 27/32 x 3,5m AS/CT | Replacement Hose Garage | Remote control CT-F I/M-Set | MFH1000 work stool | Next purchase: TBD

RED: // Mafell P1cc  //  MT55cc  // Next purchase: TBD

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1910
Re: I am done
« Reply #131 on: October 17, 2017, 06:18 PM »
A 10-year warranty? C'mon. Let's get serious. While I would guess that there have been portable, on-site power tools used heavily on a daily basis by contractors, cabinetmakers, remodeler, carpenters, etc., that have lasted 10 years and are still accurate viable tools, I would also guess that those tools are the exception. It's possible if the operation is a one-man business and that person maintains the tools well, but that's a lot of use for any tool. If the price bothers you, don't buy them. The power tool market is like any other. You can find tools over the whole range of prices, the whole range of quality, and finding a tool that has just the right mix of price and quality for your use, is very difficult. I have chosen in the past 10 years to buy higher quality tools. Festool tools fall into that category. The dust collectors, sanders, Dominos, and even the saws and MFT's are high quality tools and worth it to me because I can work easily and accurately with them. Might not be worth it to others, especially those who use them in their home woodworking shop. That's what so great about the US. You have a lot of choices.
Randy

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7652
Re: I am done
« Reply #132 on: October 17, 2017, 07:08 PM »
A 10-year warranty? C'mon. Let's get serious. While I would guess that there have been portable, on-site power tools used heavily on a daily basis by contractors, cabinetmakers, remodeler, carpenters, etc., that have lasted 10 years and are still accurate viable tools, I would also guess that those tools are the exception. It's possible if the operation is a one-man business and that person maintains the tools well, but that's a lot of use for any tool. If the price bothers you, don't buy them. The power tool market is like any other. You can find tools over the whole range of prices, the whole range of quality, and finding a tool that has just the right mix of price and quality for your use, is very difficult. I have chosen in the past 10 years to buy higher quality tools. Festool tools fall into that category. The dust collectors, sanders, Dominos, and even the saws and MFT's are high quality tools and worth it to me because I can work easily and accurately with them. Might not be worth it to others, especially those who use them in their home woodworking shop. That's what so great about the US. You have a lot of choices.

@grbmds I don't think "choice" is a unique US thing .. in fact I would say that there are far more 240V options out there than 110V and that little service called "international shipping" means the only limit is the socket on your wall and whether you'd be prepared to add voltage transformers to your kit.

I'm also honestly perplexed on the thinking regarding "home woodworkers" ... very few people buy the cheapest possible thing to do a particular job - particularly when personal pleasure is involved ... Shimano would never sell a Stella if that was the case! [wink] Don't throw everyone that buys tools for personal use into the same bucket, the spectrum is too broad to do that!


Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2744
Re: I am done
« Reply #133 on: October 17, 2017, 07:31 PM »
A 10-year warranty? C'mon. Let's get serious. While I would guess that there have been portable, on-site power tools used heavily on a daily basis by contractors, cabinetmakers, remodeler, carpenters, etc., that have lasted 10 years and are still accurate viable tools, I would also guess that those tools are the exception. It's possible if the operation is a one-man business and that person maintains the tools well, but that's a lot of use for any tool. If the price bothers you, don't buy them. The power tool market is like any other. You can find tools over the whole range of prices, the whole range of quality, and finding a tool that has just the right mix of price and quality for your use, is very difficult. I have chosen in the past 10 years to buy higher quality tools. Festool tools fall into that category. The dust collectors, sanders, Dominos, and even the saws and MFT's are high quality tools and worth it to me because I can work easily and accurately with them. Might not be worth it to others, especially those who use them in their home woodworking shop. That's what so great about the US. You have a lot of choices.

@grbmds I don't think "choice" is a unique US thing .. in fact I would say that there are far more 240V options out there than 110V and that little service called "international shipping" means the only limit is the socket on your wall and whether you'd be prepared to add voltage transformers to your kit.

I'm also honestly perplexed on the thinking regarding "home woodworkers" ... very few people buy the cheapest possible thing to do a particular job - particularly when personal pleasure is involved ... Shimano would never sell a Stella if that was the case! [wink] Don't throw everyone that buys tools for personal use into the same bucket, the spectrum is too broad to do that!




Yes some lower quality power tool brands do have good warranties. However that warranty relies upon the relatively lower use by the home owner when compared to enthusiasts and professionals.

'How often do you think you will use this drill Sir?' 'About once a month'. 'And what for?' ''Oh, hanging things, making flat packs, that sort of thing.' 'Then I suggest you look at the features of these two brands'. 'Let's look at this one for starters'.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 07:33 PM by Untidy Shop »
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Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1910
Re: I am done
« Reply #134 on: October 17, 2017, 07:31 PM »
I didn't throw home woodworkers into one category. You just took it that way. I said it "might" not be worth it to others. Might not. I know a number for whom that is true. And some of them are home woodworkers. Some are tradesmen. It's worth it to me. I have a lot of expensive tools; many Festool. I love all of them and the fact that, when I get into my shop and work, I can always rely on them, including the Festool. I have never had a problem with a Festool tool that wasn't related to something I didn't do quite right and have learned from that.

I was reacting to a 10-year warranty suggestion. . .

Plus, I see posts all the time from people in other countries who don't appear to have the same variety of choices in tools as well as other things. Not across the board, but I have many more choices than I need in the US.
Randy

Offline Zebt

  • Posts: 53
Re: I am done
« Reply #135 on: October 17, 2017, 09:44 PM »
To address the main concern of the OP.
Manufacturing and mass product sale is a very very tricky business to sustain over a long period of time without re-invention or change, for many products the change is driven by technology and is a boon for the manufacturer (consumer electronics is an example).
However, and here's the kicker, Festool have positioned themselves in a zone that makes change even more difficult for two main reasons, one is due to the very nature of power tools, their very existence is based on human ergonomics, motors and materials (usually wood)....none of which have changed in a very very long time, therefore the opportunity to continue to sell more and grow is limited, upgrades can easily become gimmicky and the tool itself will remain basically the same but be fine tuned which has a limit. The second reason is the high end target market, always a difficult one to sustain if you are mainly growth focused. Any restaurant owner will know this, if you look at maximising profit you will always end up with McDonalds, and you will never win a Michelin star!
Festool won some Michelin stars in the old days and probably deserves one for the Domino, maybe the MFT and more,  but overall perhaps they are suffering from every businesses worst nightmare, should we keep the standard and NOT maximize profit ie. not pursue continuous growth and cost reduction?

My opinion is that continuous growth and profit maximizing should never be on the goal list of a company that wants to keep a 'Michelin star standard' with its product, it should look at customer retention, innovation, product support and quality ie. the very reasons Festool has a loyal and passionate following. This does not mean that seeking increased market share should not factor at all in the business plan, it simply means that these type of goals should never compromise the basic ethos of the product.
I have worked in manufacturing of a niche product line and know how easy it is to screw up by focusing too much on profit or cost of manufacturing (essentially the same thing).

Luckily I haven't had any major issues with the way too many Festool items I have, even after using my CXS to drill through 12mm thick steel plate with a 13mm cobalt bit (I love the way the larger centrotec chuck fits the small drill!)..I was on a ship refit in Singapore and our other drill batts were flat and there was no mains power available, so out comes my little often laughed at CXS to save the day :)

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6377
Re: I am done
« Reply #136 on: October 17, 2017, 11:20 PM »
While I would guess that there have been portable, on-site power tools used heavily on a daily basis by contractors, cabinetmakers, remodeler, carpenters, etc., that have lasted 10 years and are still accurate viable tools, I would also guess that those tools are the exception.

Here’s a photo of a Milwaukee drill purchased in 1948 by my father. He used it for over 45 years on a daily basis as he was a “tin bender” or rather in today’s vernacular an HVAC installer.

It’s had 5 sets of brushes installed over its lifetime. That’s it...no new armatures, bearings or field coils, it still works today as it should despite its anemic 2.6 amp power draw.
 
I have lots of Milwaukee tools that are 25-35 years old and they function flawlessly. Ten years of service should not be the maximum anticipated limit of usefulness, rather it should be the minimum anticipated limit of usefulness.

For the price that Festool charges for their gear, they could easily justify a 5 year warranty and to gain themselves some marketing advantage over the competition, they should bump it up to 8 years. If as a company you want to pound your chest and pronounce how great your tools are compared to the competition, then back it up. A long term warranty is the first step.

Think about all these Kapex issues...if these were backed up with an 8 year warranty, the problems would all be background noise.

In this day and age when we expect 20 years of service from our refrigerator and central air conditioner that’s used 24/7, why is 3 years service life acceptable from a miter saw that’s used 8/5?
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 12:02 AM by Cheese »

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1910
Re: I am done
« Reply #137 on: October 18, 2017, 12:04 AM »
While I would guess that there have been portable, on-site power tools used heavily on a daily basis by contractors, cabinetmakers, remodeler, carpenters, etc., that have lasted 10 years and are still accurate viable tools, I would also guess that those tools are the exception.

Here’s a photo of a Milwaukee drill purchased in 1948 by my father. He used it for over 45 years on a daily basis as he was a “tin bender” or rather in today’s vernacular an HVAC installer.

It’s had 5 sets of brushes installed over its lifetime. That’s it...no new armatures, bearings or field coils, it still works today as it should despite its anemic 2.6 amp power draw.
 
I have lots of Milwaukee tools that are 25-35 years old and they function flawlessly. Ten years of service should not be the maximum anticipated limit of usefulness, rather it should be the minimum anticipated limit of usefulness.

For the price that Festool charges for their gear, they could easily justify a 5 year warranty and to gain themselves some marketing advantage over the competition, they should bump it up to 8 years. If as a company you want to pound your chest and pronounce how great your tools are compared to the competition, then back it up. A long term warranty is the first step.

Think about all these Kapex issues...if these were backed up with an 8 year warranty, the problems would all be background noise.

In this day and age when we expect 20 years of service from our refrigerator and central air conditioner that’s used 24/7, why is 3 years service life acceptable from a miter saw that’s used 8/5?
Guess you haven't bought a refrigerator, washer, or dryer recently. None of those appliances is built to last 20 years. You can expect it, but you won't get it. We bought the number one rated washer and dryer brand. The belt on the dryer lasted 5 1/2 years and I was told that we were lucky since most only last 3 - 4 years. Then the washer is front loading and has "shock absorbers" supporting the drum on 4 corners. They also wore out after 5 1/2 years and again I was told most are replaced in less time than that. We don't use these appliances very heavily. When you buy a refrigerator these days, the usual expected life is around 8 - 10 years partly because the compressor kicks on and off more to keep the temp constant and use less energy. I'm not saying this is right. In fact, it's wrong in my mind. However, it is that way I've found out the hard way.

I had a Makita plunge router I bought in the 70's which was still working and mounted in an old router table. I sold it for the router table and replaced it with a non-Festool alternative because, while I already had an OF1400, I wouldn't even consider burying a high quality, dustless router like that in a table. So I buy what I think I need and there are definitely high quality, less expensive, non-Festool options out there for many tools. So, for me, Festool doesn't exclusively have me as a customer and never will.

I'm not sure why these threads about Festool quality and service go on and on. They are just a company who makes tools; generally speaking higher end, high quality tools with a good warranty and, in my experience, good service. However, some of their tools aren't innovative, the best on the market, and certainly not less expensive. No company will survive if their tools don't last, their service deteriorates, or they just don't innovate as well as other companies. Companies like Dewalt, Makita, and Bosch have gone in the direction of making more reasonably priced, generally solid tools with great battery systems. That endears them to the people in this world who use their tools everyday on the job. And it should. I wouldn't think of replacing my Dewalt cordless drill/drivers with a Festool. It doesn't make sense for me as the Dewalt are very usable, high performance, and much less expensive for my use in a home wood shop.

For me, it's about personal preference for whatever I feel I need. I did embark on a Festool buying spree over the past several years, but it started because of what I wanted to do with my shop; get rid of a table saw and use the TS55/MFT combo in place of it. Didn't work out that way, but in the process I found unique, high performing, essentially dustless tools from Festool that I felt, and still feel, are superior to any others out there; again for my use. I have no problems with their sanders, CT, TS55, MFT, VacSys, Dominos, and OF1400. I love their sanders but have at least 2 I could get along without right now. Yet I wouldn't trade any of these tools. They work well, perform well, make woodworking essentially dustless, and a couple are so unique I couldn't buy them from any other manufacturer. If I had the problems that appear in these posts and Festool didn't fix them as alleged in the posts, I wouldn't ever buy another and, in fact, would attempt to sell them and buy other brands.

Enough said, except Festool doesn't have a corner on the market for power tools, especially in the US. They will live or die based on their innovation, service, quality, warranties, availabiity, and usability just like any other company. They owe nothing to their user public, including information about performance and failure, except production of the high quality tools and availability of the great warranty and service that made them what they are today. If that disappears, they won't make it and their expansion will be for nothing. Let them do what they do and consumers will do what they do best; buy what products work and perform well for them.
Randy

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 6066
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: I am done
« Reply #138 on: October 18, 2017, 12:11 AM »
 [dead horse]

 [doh]

Looked for the bang head against wall emoji, couldn't find it.

Tom

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6377
Re: I am done
« Reply #139 on: October 18, 2017, 12:49 AM »

Guess you haven't bought a refrigerator, washer, or dryer recently.


Wrong on both counts. The previous refrigerator we purchased was a Kitchenaid that we used for 25 years...then we purchased a new refrigerator and delivered the old one to a neighbors garage...that was 4 years ago and as of this evening it is still popping out ice cubes and dispensing cold water.

On the washer/dryer front it’s a well known fact that the average life expectancy is only 5-7 years. We just purchased another set 6 years after the other pair went toes-up.

I never said a washer/dryer would last 20 years...I said a central AC unit would be expected to last 20 years.

Think about it, if one were to take this same thought pattern further, it would then become normal to replace your furnace or your water heater every 3-4 years.

I’ll still stand by my previous statement, there’s no excuse for a mitre saw being used in a reasonable manner to not continue to function for at least 10-15 years.  [popcorn]

OR LONGER...and that’s without beating the [dead horse]
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 01:10 AM by Cheese »

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6079
Re: I am done
« Reply #140 on: October 18, 2017, 02:15 AM »
For the price that Festool charges for their gear, they could easily justify a 5 year warranty and to gain themselves some marketing advantage over the competition, they should bump it up to 8 years. If as a company you want to pound your chest and pronounce how great your tools are compared to the competition, then back it up. A long term warranty is the first step.

When I just got into Festool in 2008 they would advertise everywhere that their tools were so expensive, compared to others, because they were built to last you 25 years. A few years later I noticed that slogan was quietly retired.

So they used to do a lot of boasting indeed. I wonder if they came to realise that though 25 years can be done it is hard to reach that with every tool in every circumstance, or if they changed their design goals towards longevity.

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7652
Re: I am done
« Reply #141 on: October 18, 2017, 04:47 AM »
I just spend $10K on the best Miele washer and dryer combo I could get. This is replacing a Kleenmaid setup that is ~10 years old and still works really well, it's just not a good fit or as energy and water efficient.

I fully expect the Miele gear to last 20 years ... it's not that I expect there'll be no maintenance or repairs, but I don't expect to be replacing it!

I don't think it's a stretch to expect a high quality power tool to last 10+ years.

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: I am done
« Reply #142 on: October 18, 2017, 06:30 AM »
... That's what so great about the US. You have a lot of choices.

Maybe that was true back before... When America was great.

The whole of the "What should Festool make thread" is full of NAINA, and other manufacturers tools that are available in 230v worldwide.

We could start with cars... Other than maybe Telsa, Corvettes, and maybe some Dodges, most poepleeither have a Toyota, Subaru or Honda, or yearn for a European car.

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 443
Re: I am done
« Reply #143 on: October 18, 2017, 09:10 AM »
A 10-year warranty? C'mon. Let's get serious. While I would guess that there have been portable, on-site power tools used heavily on a daily basis by contractors, cabinetmakers, remodeler, carpenters, etc., that have lasted 10 years and are still accurate viable tools, I would also guess that those tools are the exception. It's possible if the operation is a one-man business and that person maintains the tools well, but that's a lot of use for any tool. If the price bothers you, don't buy them. The power tool market is like any other. You can find tools over the whole range of prices, the whole range of quality, and finding a tool that has just the right mix of price and quality for your use, is very difficult. I have chosen in the past 10 years to buy higher quality tools. Festool tools fall into that category. The dust collectors, sanders, Dominos, and even the saws and MFT's are high quality tools and worth it to me because I can work easily and accurately with them. Might not be worth it to others, especially those who use them in their home woodworking shop. That's what so great about the US. You have a lot of choices.

@grbmds I don't think "choice" is a unique US thing .. in fact I would say that there are far more 240V options out there than 110V and that little service called "international shipping" means the only limit is the socket on your wall and whether you'd be prepared to add voltage transformers to your kit.

I'm also honestly perplexed on the thinking regarding "home woodworkers" ... very few people buy the cheapest possible thing to do a particular job - particularly when personal pleasure is involved ... Shimano would never sell a Stella if that was the case! [wink] Don't throw everyone that buys tools for personal use into the same bucket, the spectrum is too broad to do that!

The home wood worker spends good money.  We have to be more practical about how we spend our money.  The Bosch Miter was that does 90% of what the Kapex does makes more sense for the home shop.  Not spending $2000 on Miter Saw means you have the $2000 to spend on the DF 700 Domino that will have a greater impact on what projects you can work on.

 
Festool CT Midi, Festool ETS 125, DF 700 Domino Coming Soon

Offline PeterK

  • Posts: 1001
Re: I am done
« Reply #144 on: October 18, 2017, 09:33 AM »
Being an old duffer I can make these comments.  ;)
I feel sorry in some ways for the younger men getting started in life with tools. I think back to some of my original purchases when I was either lucky or made good decisions! Yea I bought some junk and learned but occasionally bought some outstanding tools. I think back to my original router - a Dewalt DW610 I believe. It is now 30 years old and still runs like a top. I still have my original Milwaukee hole saw - 30 years old, looks like junk, makes lots of gear noise since day one, incredible torque, runs perfect. My original Milwaukee Sawzall - built like a tank, about 25 years old, has been used in horrific dusty dirty areas and still works like new. I have several other old power tools like these. When I go to the store and fondle the new Chinese Milwaukee tools I just can’t bring myself to purchase them. I am sure there are some improvements but the physical quality is nothing like it used to be. Gone are the days of lifetime tools.

I now own several Festool products but not the Kapex. I am impressed with the design and engineering and they met my needs and seemed worthy of their price to me. This is a tough manufacturing world and competition is tough. Virtually all the tool makers have track saws now although their prices are very similar to Festool’s. Festool had some great sanders but Bosch and others make equivalent sanders now. I wish Festool could come out with other intelligent tools like they used to.

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 820
Re: I am done
« Reply #145 on: October 18, 2017, 12:26 PM »
I just spend $10K on the best Miele washer and dryer combo I could get. This is replacing a Kleenmaid setup that is ~10 years old and still works really well, it's just not a good fit or as energy and water efficient.

I fully expect the Miele gear to last 20 years ... it's not that I expect there'll be no maintenance or repairs, but I don't expect to be replacing it!

I don't think it's a stretch to expect a high quality power tool to last 10+ years.

Agree on the power tools. Many of my stationary and portable tools are well north of 10 years old.

Spending to save is generally a terrible idea unless you just want to spend money to replace working items and justify it with whatever the savings are. I have never heard this reason with a washer and dryer, but have with cars, HVAC systems and windows.

Offline Steven Owen

  • Posts: 443
Re: I am done
« Reply #146 on: October 18, 2017, 01:32 PM »
I just spend $10K on the best Miele washer and dryer combo I could get. This is replacing a Kleenmaid setup that is ~10 years old and still works really well, it's just not a good fit or as energy and water efficient.

I fully expect the Miele gear to last 20 years ... it's not that I expect there'll be no maintenance or repairs, but I don't expect to be replacing it!

I don't think it's a stretch to expect a high quality power tool to last 10+ years.

Agree on the power tools. Many of my stationary and portable tools are well north of 10 years old.

Spending to save is generally a terrible idea unless you just want to spend money to replace working items and justify it with whatever the savings are. I have never heard this reason with a washer and dryer, but have with cars, HVAC systems and windows.

A lot of these decsions are ego based rather than practical. It’s about bragging to your buddy or a colleague about this $2000 miter saw, $1400 jig or how you bought the best of the best.

I look at the quality of the projects people are making.  I don’t care how shinny your Tools are or how much money you spent buying Saw X and Tool Y.

Some people more enamoured with the logo on their tool than they are with the quality of the table they built.  Some of the most impressive furnite design were built 70 -300 years ago without the benefit of fancy logos and brand names.
Festool CT Midi, Festool ETS 125, DF 700 Domino Coming Soon

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1910
Re: I am done
« Reply #147 on: October 18, 2017, 02:03 PM »
[dead horse]

 [doh]

Looked for the bang head against wall emoji, couldn't find it.

Tom

Agree completely. Is that cow? Never heard of beating a dead cow, but it works also.
Randy

Offline Peter Halle

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  • MacGyver - My boy 2010 - 2019 RIP
Re: I am done
« Reply #148 on: October 18, 2017, 02:34 PM »
It appears that after about three weeks of posts that have gotten further away from the original posters topic that there isn't much hope of it going back that way.

So, perhaps that means that it is a good time to lock this thread.

I am sure that Festool will glean (or has gleaned) for any valuable information and insights by this time.

Peter Halle - Moderator