Author Topic: Which Domino, old small 500, or new large 700  (Read 32132 times)

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Offline RussellS

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Which Domino, old small 500, or new large 700
« on: November 11, 2011, 05:30 PM »
First post.  But I guess I can be a legitimate member of this forum since I own some lime green/black/cream colored power tools.

Based on recent reviews, it appears the new Domino XL 700 model is coming out.  Based on an email I saw, mid 2012 in North America.  The original Domino 500 uses 4, 5, 6, 8, 10 mm mortise cutters.  The new Domino 700 uses 8, 10, 12, 14 mm mortise cutters.  I don't see much use for the small 4, 5, 6 mm cutters.  Other than as alignment pins for edge gluing boards to make a panel.  I already have a DeWalt plate joiner so this tool serves that purpose.  The 4, 5, 6 mm cutters would be OK for very thin wood.  1/4" to 1/2" thickness.  Although the 8mm cutter could work on 1/2" wood.  Most/all of my woodworking is normal sized projects using 3/4" or thicker wood.  I rarely use thin wood.

What benefit does the old small Domino 500 provide over the new large Domino 700?  Is there any reason to buy the 500 if you can get the 700?  Does the 500 add much functionality?  The 700 can go down to sort of small 8mm mortises, useful for 1/2"-5/8" thick wood.  But the larger 12 and 14mm cutters would be best for larger furniture sized pieces of wood.

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Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Which Domino, old small 500, or new large 700
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2011, 05:45 PM »
Russell,

Welcome to the FOG!  Yes, hopefully the Domino XL will arrive and stay on our shores.  I sense that you might have some numbers mixed up with the sizes of the dominos.  Typically you would be trying to use a domino that is about one-third of the thickness of the workpiece.  If you have 1/2 in stock (12.7 mm) you would be using usually the 4 mm.  For 3/4 in stock a 6 mm.  For full 1 in - also called 5/4 - an 8 mm.  So based on that you could use the Domino 500 for most stuff up to about 1.25 inches, or, thicker, if you doubled up the dominoes.

The XL will duplicate at the high range of the spread and then go big - 2 full inches.

Hope that this helps.

Peter

Offline VictorL

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Re: Which Domino, old small 500, or new large 700
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2011, 06:13 PM »
DF-500 will be more handy than DF-700. DF-700 is designated for Medium to big joints such as big doors, big frames with thick material (1.5" and thicker). For cabinets, drawers, 3/4" frames, plywood, smaller doors, tables etc DF-500 will be more suitable. I've bought DF-500 when they just arrived and never regret this purchase. 10x50 dominoes are really big for many projects. I very rarely need mortises bigger than 10x50, so I'll wait. Another consideration is price. DF-700 is much more expensive.

VictorL

Offline RL

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Re: Which Domino, old small 500, or new large 700
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2011, 06:20 PM »
Hi Russell,

Realistically there is not a lot overlap between the two machines. The XL can mortise much deeper then the 500, as well as thicker. The right machine for you depends on what you are building. I build furniture, frames, smaller projects- the 500 is fine. The only time I used a 50mm domino was on my workbench. The price difference between the two will likely only be $200 or so.

Richard.


Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Which Domino, old small 500, or new large 700
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2011, 11:37 PM »
Hello Russell,

Peter Halle is quite right when he explains the sizes of domino for differing stock. I build all sorts from small boxes up to barns. For most furniture the DF 500 will be great but for door and window frames, staircases and dining room tables (and barns!) I would go for the DF 700.

Before I got my hands on the DF 700 I needed to make some sturdy joints and so I made some custom dominos in sizes that Festool do not sell. I did a test cut using the 10mm cutter at maximum depth and maximum width (it is 4.25 am here and I am not going out to the workshop to check the exact sizes) and then made up some dominos which I think were about 60mm long and 32mm wide. They worked really well.

Here are two pictures that might help.

The first shows the DF 500 next to the DF 700 with all the regular sizes dominos arranged in front of the appropriate machine.

The second shows a small box that I was making out of walnut where I had used the 4mm dominos to secure the mitred joints. When I cut the box through I accidentally went through the dominos but at least it allows me to illustrate a use for the domlets that come with the DF 500. In the back of that picture you can see my drawing for the bench that I am making which featured in my DF 700 review here on the FOG.

I hope that this helps.

Peter

Offline fritter63

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Re: Which Domino, old small 500, or new large 700
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2011, 11:34 AM »
Slight OT Peter,

for assembly, did you just squeeze all four joints in simultaneously? Using a slow drying glow (like hide glue)?

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Which Domino, old small 500, or new large 700
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2011, 12:28 PM »
Slight OT Peter,

for assembly, did you just squeeze all four joints in simultaneously? Using a slow drying glow (like hide glue)?

I was experimenting to establish the quickest way to bring a box together. The method with the dominos is okay but, as you say, rather elaborate. I used normal PVA glue.

Peter

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Which Domino, old small 500, or new large 700
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2011, 12:51 PM »
Hi Russell,

Welcome to the FOG !  [smile]

Unless you are doing large heavy joints most of the time I think the 500 will be the more useful of the two. The 500 can be made bigger by doubling up  dominos in one large double cut mortise or by using multiple  mortises in the same joint. The 10 x 50 Domino will do a pretty big joint.  Plus it can do the small things too. The 700 can not be made smaller. Even though you plan to use your biscuit joiner for the smaller things and for edge gluing boards. The 4mm Domino can  be
used in joints where even a face frame  biscuit is  a difficult fit. And the Dominos will hold the joint together while you put clamps on or move the piece.

Seth

Offline Timtool

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Re: Which Domino, old small 500, or new large 700
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2011, 02:34 PM »
I just got me a DF 700 today, they are different machines for different tasks. If you can only get one it will depend on which one will serve you most. In my case i am guessing my 500 will still get the most use because it is so versatile and light, and i will only reach to the 700 when i have to. It's great and initially it cuts into wood like into butter, but at my 40th mortise i could hardly feel my arm anymore. Quite exhausting and painful in the end.
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Offline PaulMarcel

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Re: Which Domino, old small 500, or new large 700
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2011, 03:05 PM »
Nice comparison picture, Peter.

I also have done like Peter in the past where I use the larger mortise settings and even stagger them to make wider mortises when necessary. Usually comes up on apron-to-leg joints.  With all the talk of the DF-700, I thought to roll a video on making extra-wide mortises with the DF-500 and coincidentally posted at the same time as Peter replied here (were you over my shoulder? why didn't you say hi?)

It's very easy to do using the cursor lines on the fence cursor.  Making a ton of stock is a matter of resawing some project left-over and possibly a pass in the drum sander.
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Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Which Domino, old small 500, or new large 700
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2011, 04:35 PM »
Nice comparison picture, Peter.

I also have done like Peter in the past where I use the larger mortise settings and even stagger them to make wider mortises when necessary. Usually comes up on apron-to-leg joints.  With all the talk of the DF-700, I thought to roll a video on making extra-wide mortises with the DF-500 and coincidentally posted at the same time as Peter replied here (were you over my shoulder? why didn't you say hi?)

It's very easy to do using the cursor lines on the fence cursor.  Making a ton of stock is a matter of resawing some project left-over and possibly a pass in the drum sander.

Hi Paul

I have been using the extra wide tenons for some time now and they do extend the value of the Domino 500. I was only making tenons that fit the middle and wide width setting of the DF 500 - take a look at the introduction of my 'reference block' during my review of the DF 700. I really like the idea of going one step further and extending the width of the mortice beyond the wide setting on the machine. Taking that a stage further on can then make them fatter by repeating a cut at a different height setting.

Here is a picture taken yesterday where I have created extra wide mortice slots in the tool area of my new bench. Some of the slots are 55mm long.

If you ever get out of Arizona and come to England let me know and we can meet at my place. My only time in your home state included a visit to Tombstone on a Sunday when everyone was dressed up as cowboys/girls. It was a bit spooky as it was like walking into the middle of the 19th century. Somewhere, perhaps Tuscon, I had some really good re-fried beans.

Take care,

Peter




Offline Jesse Cloud

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Re: Which Domino, old small 500, or new large 700
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2011, 07:31 PM »
Interesting thread!
Personally, I'm not greatly interested in thick tenons.  Two thin tenons make a much stronger joint (more glue area) than a thick tenon.  But sometimes you have a joint in fairly thin wood that takes a lot of stress (yeah, I make chairs) and a long mortise is called for.  So I perk up when I hear the nice depth capacity of the big domino.

If its not too expensive (yeah, right...) I'll get the big domino and put the router end mills and the tablesaw tenoning jig in deep storage.  But for most furniture making applications, I think multiple smaller dominoes with the classic domino are the answer.

Now if you are building entry doors, barns, etc.  the answer is different!

Offline fritter63

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Re: Which Domino, old small 500, or new large 700
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2011, 07:39 PM »
Nice comparison picture, Peter.

I also have done like Peter in the past where I use the larger mortise settings and even stagger them to make wider mortises when necessary. Usually comes up on apron-to-leg joints.  With all the talk of the DF-700, I thought to roll a video on making extra-wide mortises with the DF-500 and coincidentally posted at the same time as Peter replied here (were you over my shoulder? why didn't you say hi?)

It's very easy to do using the cursor lines on the fence cursor.  Making a ton of stock is a matter of resawing some project left-over and possibly a pass in the drum sander.

Your video inadvertently highlights one of the downfalls of using the Domino... it's so quick and easy, there's a tendency to go off without checking measurements. When making M&T "the hard way", one tends to double or triple check everything to avoid cut errors.

The reminder is that even with the Domino, it's best to "measure twice, cut once".

Offline PaulMarcel

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Re: Which Domino, old small 500, or new large 700
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2011, 03:03 AM »
Hi Paul

I have been using the extra wide tenons for some time now and they do extend the value of the Domino 500. I was only making tenons that fit the middle and wide width setting of the DF 500 - take a look at the introduction of my 'reference block' during my review of the DF 700. I really like the idea of going one step further and extending the width of the mortice beyond the wide setting on the machine. Taking that a stage further on can then make them fatter by repeating a cut at a different height setting.

Here is a picture taken yesterday where I have created extra wide mortice slots in the tool area of my new bench. Some of the slots are 55mm long.

If you ever get out of Arizona and come to England let me know and we can meet at my place. My only time in your home state included a visit to Tombstone on a Sunday when everyone was dressed up as cowboys/girls. It was a bit spooky as it was like walking into the middle of the 19th century. Somewhere, perhaps Tuscon, I had some really good re-fried beans.

Take care,

Peter

I liked the block you made; saw it better in part 2.  The idea of making thicker mortises by stacking the height came to mind as well, but I've never done that.  Usually a 10mm thick tenon is perfect and it doesn't require chiseling the end.

So many nicer places than Tombstone to visit here, but it seems to be the best known destination.  Next time you come down, we'll make a native of you and hike rim-to-rim on the Grand Canyon on Independence Day (was 118ºF at the bottom; much naughty language).

I'll make it to England and Europe sometime soon; Phoenix is a hub for British Air.  Problem is I like Japan too much :)
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Offline William Herrold

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Re: Which Domino, old small 500, or new large 700
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2011, 06:18 AM »
The D500 is a very versatile machine, Between that and the Leigh FMT, my small and mid size mortises, and mid size tenons are covered.
If I didn't own the FMT, I'd have already purchased a DF700.  With the stock FMT, an OF1400 with a solid carbide 1/2" spiral bit I can easily make M's and T's up to 12.7 x 70 x 120. So, with a DF700 I'd only gain 1.3mm of mortise thickness. The DF700 is a Mortiser only, *could* be considered faster, but the FMT is also very fast, -and unbelievably accurate and repeatable.
The DF500 is also a great tool for glue-ups, making a biscuit/Lamello cutter *almost* redundant.
I'd imagine Festool will sell 10+ 500s for every 700. The 700 crosses the line into quite specialized tooling in my opinion.
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Offline RussellS

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Re: Which Domino, old small 500, or new large 700
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2011, 08:23 PM »
Thank you for the replies.  Some good ideas.  Using two or more slip tenons instead of one thicker tenon would probably be better in most situations.  Something the smaller 500 is better at.  And the 500 has the ability to cut much wider mortises than stock pretty easily.  Then custom tenons could be made without too much difficulty.  I'm getting the impression the smaller 500 has more capability than I gave it credit for.  It just might be the better machine for almost all size furniture except exceptionally large.  Its only downside might be its depth of cut.  28mm I believe.  So you can't have more than about 1 inch of tenon into each piece of wood.  Some projects would call for longer tenons.

Offline fshanno

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Re: Which Domino, old small 500, or new large 700
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2011, 10:01 PM »
What if CMT or someone else starts making 4mm 5mm and 6mm bits for the 700? 
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Offline Ken Nagrod

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Re: Which Domino, old small 500, or new large 700
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2011, 10:25 PM »
What if CMT or someone else starts making 4mm 5mm and 6mm bits for the 700? 


How easy would it be to use that huge machine on small pieces?  Is your purpose a one size fits all machine?

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Which Domino, old small 500, or new large 700
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2011, 12:39 AM »
What if CMT or someone else starts making 4mm 5mm and 6mm bits for the 700? 


The Festool engineers would have to answer this but...

If the cutter were to be the same length as the current ones for the DF 700 then strength would become an issue as the diameter decreases. If the length were reduced to lessen the risk of fracture then the user would have to make allowance for this when setting the mortice depth (just as we have to do with the 4mm cutter in the DF500 and that has been shortened due to strength issues).

If the fairies could produce a strong and reliable cutter of the standard length then it would be just as easy to use as the standard ones - depth adjustable from 15 to 70mm and height (to the centre of the cutter) adjustable from 10-50mm. I do not know for sure whether the mortice width would match the standard domino size for the 4-8mm dominos. I suspect that this would be okay as I have used a 10mm domino from my DF 500 box in a mortice made by the DF 700 and vice versa.

As far as using the DF 700 on smaller pieces goes - no problem, within reason. I have used the Trimstop that I bought for my DF 500 on the DF 700 and it works really well (see the picture below). Yes, the DF 700 is heavier but if the stock is well supported that should make no difference.

Peter

Offline Ken Nagrod

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Re: Which Domino, old small 500, or new large 700
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2011, 01:03 AM »
Something I've noticed over the years of using my DF500, that would probably be exacerbated if you did use the DF700 in the same manner, is dominoing materials that aren't relatively flat or have noticeable inconsistencies in the level of the surface.  The wide platform of the fence has a natural tendency to be thrown off by these areas and show the height difference when the mating pieces are joined up.  Obviously always try to work with flat stock, but some stock, particularly sheet goods are frequently cupped and you may not be able to or want to work around those areas. 

Offline fshanno

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Re: Which Domino, old small 500, or new large 700
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2011, 08:06 AM »
What if CMT or someone else starts making 4mm 5mm and 6mm bits for the 700? 


How easy would it be to use that huge machine on small pieces?  Is your purpose a one size fits all machine?

Look at the front of the two units.  Is the fence on the 700 any wider than the fence on the 500?  Not much if any and only a little taller.  It's not that huge.  Looks like it will punch 4mm mortises in 1/2" material just as easily as the 500.  The awesome handles look like they more than offset the weight difference.

And look at the stroke.  The tenons for the 700 aren't much wider than the tenons for the 500 so the oscillation is similar.  In fact those new tenons are very unusual looking.  I wonder how many tenons that long and slender have ever been used by woodworkers doing loose tenon joinery in the past.  Once again the Domino ushers in a new day.

I'll bet CMT is licking their chops as we type.  They may have smaller diameter bits available in the US before the 700 itself is available.

At this point I wouldn't even consider a 500.





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Offline Timtool

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Re: Which Domino, old small 500, or new large 700
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2011, 03:43 PM »

Look at the front of the two units.  Is the fence on the 700 any wider than the fence on the 500?  Not much if any and only a little taller.  It's not that huge.  Looks like it will punch 4mm mortises in 1/2" material just as easily as the 500.  The awesome handles look like they more than offset the weight difference.
...
At this point I wouldn't even consider a 500.
I may have thought the same before i got the 700, but 500 users know that it's not always easy to hold it perfectly flat, resulting in joints that aren't flush. And you can hold the 500 with the fence knob and use you other hand to push it.
The 700 weighs allot more and must be held with both hands, it requires more energy and accuracy to get the same accuracy as the 500. 4-10mm cutters on the 700 would be as practical as doing all your drill and drive work with a 36volt drill or all your routing with a 2000W router. It's possible, but how practical is it really.
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Offline William Herrold

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Re: Which Domino, old small 500, or new large 700
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2011, 04:09 PM »
What if CMT or someone else starts making 4mm 5mm and 6mm bits for the 700? 



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Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Which Domino, old small 500, or new large 700
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2011, 12:00 AM »
I think the real issue will be the strength of the material that the cutters are made from. Hard and sharp cutters are brittle and at the length that they might need to be for the indexing to match up (ie same length as the other cutters) the 4, 5 and 6 mm ones would struggle to last any time at all.

Peter

Offline fshanno

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Re: Which Domino, old small 500, or new large 700
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2011, 03:44 PM »
I think the real issue will be the strength of the material that the cutters are made from. Hard and sharp cutters are brittle and at the length that they might need to be for the indexing to match up (ie same length as the other cutters) the 4, 5 and 6 mm ones would struggle to last any time at all.

Peter

Why would they need to be longer than the current ones?  You might have to plunge a bit to get them to engage but that's the way the 4mm bit works in the 500 right now.

You're pretty good with that XL based on what I see in your videos.  It's hard to believe you couldn't make a 5mm bit work in that thing even if it is a beast. 

If I didn't already have a Domino I would be one of those who would buy a 500 even after the 700 is available because I rarely use the the 8mm and 10mm tenons.  But that won't stop me from yanking Festool's chain about it.  They need to go ahead and offer a full range of bits for the new machine.  And who knows what the folks at CMT are up to?
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Offline jmbfestool

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Re: Which Domino, old small 500, or new large 700
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2011, 05:10 PM »
I think the real issue will be the strength of the material that the cutters are made from. Hard and sharp cutters are brittle and at the length that they might need to be for the indexing to match up (ie same length as the other cutters) the 4, 5 and 6 mm ones would struggle to last any time at all.

Peter

Why would they need to be longer than the current ones?  You might have to plunge a bit to get them to engage but that's the way the 4mm bit works in the 500 right now.

You're pretty good with that XL based on what I see in your videos.  It's hard to believe you couldn't make a 5mm bit work in that thing even if it is a beast.  

If I didn't already have a Domino I would be one of those who would buy a 500 even after the 700 is available because I rarely use the the 8mm and 10mm tenons.  But that won't stop me from yanking Festool's chain about it.  They need to go ahead and offer a full range of bits for the new machine.  And who knows what the folks at CMT are up to?


I agree with you!   Im kinda waiting to see if CMT makes some cutters for the 700.    Funny really cus I was tlkin 2 my mate yesterday about the 500 and 700 as hes interested in the 700 more so than the 500 cus he makes a lot of windows and doors but would like the possibility of smaller dominos for the occasional job which require smaller dominos BUT cant justify buying both dominos for the little amount he will be using the smaller 500.  He was asking me if the 700 crossed over to the 500 size range   I told him no but CMT will probs make some cutters in the future for the 700 any way.      

So Fshanno even though every one seems against you arguing the fact its down to the accuracy and weight junk and thats why they dont do smaller cutters   I think it has nothing to do with it.     It might be other factors like mentioned cutter strength/lenght I dont know but it aint the accuracy and weight and size they have nothing to do with it.  

I believe one of the reasons could be if they made the 700 do what the 500 can then the 500 would loose a lot of potential sales as like my mate would just buy the 700  and not both.   Maybe people who will be doing a lot of large and very small dominos would buy both still even though the 700 could do the entire range but them type of people will be very limited and you will find a lot of people would just buy the 700 if it would do the full range  me being one of those people!

« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 05:13 PM by jmbfestool »
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Offline Kev

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Re: Which Domino, old small 500, or new large 700
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2011, 09:42 PM »
Even knowing the 700 was coming, I purchased a 500 recently as I know I'll want to use both over time. It'll probably be a few months until supply filters through to Australia - Oz being they inventory bum end of the world !! (we're still clearing steam powered versions of some Festool models in the local supply chain).

** I'm only whining because I couldnt get T-Loc Systainer versions of the T18 and Carvex Accessories just recently  [crying]

Kev.

Offline PaulMarcel

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Re: Which Domino, old small 500, or new large 700
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2011, 10:42 PM »
Even knowing the 700 was coming, I purchased a 500 recently as I know I'll want to use both over time. It'll probably be a few months until supply filters through to Australia - Oz being they inventory bum end of the world !! (we're still clearing steam powered versions of some Festool models in the local supply chain).

** I'm only whining because I couldnt get T-Loc Systainer versions of the T18 and Carvex Accessories just recently  [crying]

Kev.

Ah, but you could get the Carvex! :)
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Offline Kev

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Re: Which Domino, old small 500, or new large 700
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2011, 01:31 AM »
Even knowing the 700 was coming, I purchased a 500 recently as I know I'll want to use both over time. It'll probably be a few months until supply filters through to Australia - Oz being they inventory bum end of the world !! (we're still clearing steam powered versions of some Festool models in the local supply chain).

** I'm only whining because I couldnt get T-Loc Systainer versions of the T18 and Carvex Accessories just recently  [crying]

Kev.

Ah, but you could get the Carvex! :)

Yes - irony is I got a extra T-Loc Sys2 to migrate the Carvex accessories into and relegated the old Sys2 to the old Hitachi jigsaw ..

Has anyone noticed how Systainers multiply ??

Offline woodfrompieter

  • Posts: 10
Re: Which Domino, old small 500, or new large 700
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2013, 03:03 PM »
Is it possible to use the XL for 18mm sheetgoods?