Author Topic: How can people not shop at Amazon?  (Read 4900 times)

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Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6081
Re: How can people not shop at Amazon?
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2019, 12:24 PM »
Man, the things you learn from media like this. I didn't even know humanity was being killed. And progress is bad.

'mkay, I'll keep my eyes open.   [scared]

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1032
  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: How can people not shop at Amazon?
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2019, 12:39 PM »
"It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine" ...



Have fun everyone!

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline elfick

  • Posts: 530
Re: How can people not shop at Amazon?
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2019, 02:02 PM »
Well, Amazon has outsourced the handling of returns (at least they do over here in the EU). There are specialised firms that will select what will be sold again by Amazon or disposed of in another way. The whole process sounds sustainable, but fundamentally Amazon is in the business of selling us stuff we don’t really need. Overconsumption is what will kill humanity.

So, are you saying that because it's outsourced there is no longer a cost associated with handling returns? Of course you aren't saying that, because that would be a ridiculous thing to say. So if there is still a cost associated with it and Amazon has determined that the cost, whether the function is outsourced or not, exceeds the value of the item, what is the point of your statement?

"... but fundamentally Amazon is in the business of selling us stuff we don’t really need."
I'll let you in on a little secret... The vast majority of businesses, large and small, exist solely to sell use stuff we don't really *NEED*. 100% of what Festool sells are things we don't *NEED*. Yet here we are. We can even take this a step further and point out that the vast majority, maybe everything depending on how you look at it, of what Amazon sells is made by other companies. That means that Amazon exists solely to sell you things you don't really *NEED* that are made by companies that exists solely to make things that you don't really *NEED*.

Mind. Blown.  [eek]   [jawdrop]

Welcome to consumerism?

I guess those that answered the OP's question of "How can people not shop at Amazon?" are all welcome to their own reasons.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6081
Re: How can people not shop at Amazon?
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2019, 02:38 PM »
End of the world ... with emphasis on "as we know it".

The bane of every generation.

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1032
  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: How can people not shop at Amazon?
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2019, 02:43 PM »
Truth. :)

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline DashZero

  • Posts: 100
Re: How can people not shop at Amazon?
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2019, 02:51 PM »
I sold computers for a company that refused to sell mail order.  I kept selling for them and they refused to sell over the internet.  That company is out of business.  Good riddance.  I provide local and remote service to clients both in my home state and many states away, I could care less what best buy does with their flat rate, or the large company that poached one of my clients with a service contract that actual, has cost them three times the fees I used to charge.  My point is Amazon couldn’t and wouldn’t exist if it didn’t fill a niche that wasn’t being served.

I saw pawn shops complain about eBay was going to put them out of business, in fact I know some pawn shops that don’t even care about walk in customers anymore, they mostly online.

Whoever was shoeing horses or making wagon wheels when automobiles were invented either became more specialized and survived, or changed their business model.

What about all the mom and pop saw, hammer, shovel, screwdriver manufactures, that went out of business or got bought out or expanded.  There are three choices.

The customers I want are the ones that first determine the level of service they want then decide on me.  The ones that decide on me based on price first, I actually don’t want. Took a while to realize this.


Quote from: Bob D. link=topic=59417.msg577996#msg577996date=1556291095
Amazon truly is amazing, to the detriment of local stores. They just can't compete. WalMart had the same affect. Between the two of them plus HD and Lowes they will pretty much kill off local retailers in most markets. I don't know how our local hardware stores remain in business. One is a True Value franchise operated by the local lumber yard but the other is a ACE hardware dealer. The closest big box stores are just over 15 miles away so that is all that saves them I think. Their prices can be slightly higher as they save the cost and time of driving 30+ miles round trip to "get it cheaper" from the BORG.

Offline Holzhacker

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    • www.aic-chicago.com
Re: How can people not shop at Amazon?
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2019, 03:44 PM »
I live in Chicago, except for very rare specialty items Amazon sells nothing I can't go down the road and buy. If I buy from Amazon once a year I'd be surprised. I also shop online as little as possible.
A I don't need to living here; B I try not to because I prefer to support the local economy.
That said, if I lived in a lot of other places that don't have the resources that we have in Chicago I would probably have to shop Amazon or online a lot.
"The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 561
Re: How can people not shop at Amazon?
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2019, 05:08 PM »
The don't have to do it 100% on their own.   I don't think many companies do.  Even the tiniest of 1 man outfits manage to do it just fine, large international companies won't have an issue.   The point is if you make stuff, and want to sell it, people should be able to complete the buying process via your website, the actual sales processing is very likely done via a 3rd party in the background where it is not seen.  But having no option to buy, instead you have to go search, just to have it only show up on Amazon and then it points out that it is sold from you is the madness.

I’m confused here, you’re OK that people often use 3rd parties to help manage their ecommerce and fulfillment, but it is madness if Amazon is that 3rd party?

Do you seriously not understand what has been said?   The 2 things described are not the same thing.    Stores take credit cards, a store taking credit card does not setup it's own international credit card processing company.  Same for e-commercre, I don't think very many set up their own system.  Just like companies don't create there own internet ISP to get their office online, or code their own document created, spread sheet creation software, they buy it from someone else.   Selling something via Amazon is not the same as using a e-commerce software company for e-commerce on your own website, not even remotely the same thing.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 561
Re: How can people not shop at Amazon?
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2019, 05:23 PM »
I sold computers for a company that refused to sell mail order.  I kept selling for them and they refused to sell over the internet.  That company is out of business.  Good riddance.  I provide local and remote service to clients both in my home state and many states away, I could care less what best buy does with their flat rate, or the large company that poached one of my clients with a service contract that actual, has cost them three times the fees I used to charge.  My point is Amazon couldn’t and wouldn’t exist if it didn’t fill a niche that wasn’t being served.

I saw pawn shops complain about eBay was going to put them out of business, in fact I know some pawn shops that don’t even care about walk in customers anymore, they mostly online.

Whoever was shoeing horses or making wagon wheels when automobiles were invented either became more specialized and survived, or changed their business model.

What about all the mom and pop saw, hammer, shovel, screwdriver manufactures, that went out of business or got bought out or expanded.  There are three choices.

The customers I want are the ones that first determine the level of service they want then decide on me.  The ones that decide on me based on price first, I actually don’t want. Took a while to realize this.


Quote from: Bob D. link=topic=59417.msg577996#msg577996date=1556291095
Amazon truly is amazing, to the detriment of local stores. They just can't compete. WalMart had the same affect. Between the two of them plus HD and Lowes they will pretty much kill off local retailers in most markets. I don't know how our local hardware stores remain in business. One is a True Value franchise operated by the local lumber yard but the other is a ACE hardware dealer. The closest big box stores are just over 15 miles away so that is all that saves them I think. Their prices can be slightly higher as they save the cost and time of driving 30+ miles round trip to "get it cheaper" from the BORG.

I think you lost the plot here,  yes, Amazon exist because there was a need,  really e-commerce, not Amazon  exist because of the things you mention. That is not the issue. The issue is when any single entity takes over to the level they have, it hurts everyone.  As it stands, no one could launch a competitor to them right now.  Amazon was allowed to take losses for over a decade. No company can do that now just to try and compete with them. Further you can't just avoid them, as Amazon has branched into so many things behind the scenes.  Even if you stopped using the internet (it's impossible for the most part to use the internet without touching Amazon since their webserver presence is such a large part of it), you still can't avoid them, Amazon is everywhere and in everything.  The world of Alexa just adds to the problem.  You have no idea if someone has such a device around you in hearing range.  Your local government, your place of work likely have something going on with some aspect of Amazon.  And to be clear, they are not alone on some of these issues (Google).   Our government went after Microsoft in the 90s for having the nerve to put a webbrowser in their operating system,  now we have systems that one company can be everything.

Filling a void created by bad businesses 25 years ago doesn't mean everything you do from that point on is just fine.  Google started out as the not-evil company, they were to protect everyone from MS evils.  Now I think most people would trust MS anyday over google, and few trust Microsoft at all.

When any company has the lion share of a market, that is very bad.  When people have no way to completely bypass a particular company in their lives there is a major problem.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6081
Re: How can people not shop at Amazon?
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2019, 05:37 PM »
Selling something via Amazon is not the same as using a e-commerce software company for e-commerce on your own website, not even remotely the same thing.

Amazon's services might be more all-encompassing than just selling you software, but the basic idea is the same: help you sell your goods online.

Since all is happening online as letters on your screen, what does it even matter what company is behind it? What does it matter if it says Amazon, or Newegg, or Walmart or Toolsonline? It's all just letters on your screen.

It is not like you're dealing with actual people anymore like in a brick and morter store.

Most of the time it's Google where you start anyway. Then you click on a link and it brings you to a product page with some letters on it. A banner at the top. Some photos and a description of your desired product. A button to the shopping cart and finally a button to select your payment method. And then just sit back and wait for it to arrive at your doorstep.
 
All perfectly anonymous. They're just letters on a screen to you and you're just letters on a screen to them. So what does it matter what the letters say exactly? As long as you get the goods and they get the coin.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6081
Re: How can people not shop at Amazon?
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2019, 05:41 PM »
When any company has the lion share of a market, that is very bad.  When people have no way to completely bypass a particular company in their lives there is a major problem.

Yes, that's very bad. But the solution there can only lie on the political level. Not the technological level. You're not going to stop this by not using Amazon.

Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 297
Re: How can people not shop at Amazon?
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2019, 06:55 PM »
Shopping at amazon is just a choice to be made.  I buy many things there but I generally check to make sure their price is best, fairly often I will find the local Home Depot has lower prices than amazon.  Amazon got where they did by investing in their growth, when many owners would have taken a fat profit stream Jeff Bezos was smart enough to leave the money in the business and let it grow.  Oh and by the way it's likely that if you live in a large city amazon IS a local business...a few thousand of your fellow citizens may work a their fulfillment center, local Fedex, UPS and USPS employees deliver the goods to you.  It's easy to imagine Bezos is a super entrepreneur, or an evil genius, or that he's building the Matrix...but he's just a smart guy who saw an opening and has masterfully filled it.  I don't know about you but getting something I need two days later at my door rather than trekking out in crummy weather is quite compelling.

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 820
Re: How can people not shop at Amazon?
« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2019, 11:04 PM »
What kills me is companies who do their direct sales via amazon vs just selling from their own site.

Have you ever developed an ecommerce website complete with all the features todays consumer has come to expect? A site that never goes down and gets enough search traffic to generate enough sales to grow a business? Your comment suggests it is simple, but it is not.

The don't have to do it 100% on their own.   I don't think many companies do.  Even the tiniest of 1 man outfits manage to do it just fine, large international companies won't have an issue.   The point is if you make stuff, and want to sell it, people should be able to complete the buying process via your website, the actual sales processing is very likely done via a 3rd party in the background where it is not seen.  But having no option to buy, instead you have to go search, just to have it only show up on Amazon and then it points out that it is sold from you is the madness.


You cannot sell anything as well and as easy as you can on Amazon. Their infrastructure cannot be matched and the process is frictionless for the customer (no need to create an account or add a payment method or enter shipping info). For the manufacturer/reseller there is almost nothing to do to setup a store and absolutely nothing to do except balance your books as transactions happen. All the messy stuff is handled by Amazon.

Offline Slowlearner

  • Posts: 62
Re: How can people not shop at Amazon?
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2019, 08:18 AM »
The op talks about amazon collecting too much data etc. Use a smart phone or even and intwrnet connection? No different maybe just not as obvious. I know the phones listen to collect data and well as using camera. I look at it this way, who am i? A small fish in an extremely large pond. Im not running for prez so ill just keep ysing the conviences bc no matter what we do our data is getting collected. Only way to avoid this is to toatlly go off the grid..

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: How can people not shop at Amazon?
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2019, 10:28 AM »
Do you seriously not understand what has been said?   The 2 things described are not the same thing.    Stores take credit cards, a store taking credit card does not setup it's own international credit card processing company.  Same for e-commercre, I don't think very many set up their own system.  Just like companies don't create there own internet ISP to get their office online, or code their own document created, spread sheet creation software, they buy it from someone else.   Selling something via Amazon is not the same as using a e-commerce software company for e-commerce on your own website, not even remotely the same thing.

I think your contempt for Amazon is obscuring the point I was making. A person who developed a widget wants to sell to the world online. Developing their own ecommerce website involves everything from domain, hosting, platform development, SSL certificate, transaction and data security, arranging payment processing, order support options including phone, chat and email, SEO optimization, order fulfillment, and a bunch of other little things as well. There are very few widget sellers who can do these things on their own, so they use 3rd party services. Piecemealing the whole thing together is also not easy, hoping to get the right web developer to build things well, hiring and managing after hours support, getting payment processing that fits your needs, hoping the developer knows current SEO practices or working nicely with a SEO provider, building and staffing a fulfillment center or hiring that out as well. All these things have an upfront cost before selling a single widget. Along comes Amazon who will do most of it without the upfront cost. They have the platform, the marketplace, the payment processing, the fulfillment all available to the widget seller, not with a huge upfront cost but a cut of sales. For some widget sellers it is a no brainer way to get their product to market. Earning a living isn’t maddness. They would be wise though to reinvest those earning to develop other sales channels because Amazon can cut them off. Whether it is other online marketplaces like Ebay, direct sales via their own website, brick and mortar retail, not having all eggs in one basket makes a lot of sense. It’s just business, and Amazon is a viable option for many people both sellers and buyers or else it wouldn’t continue to succeed.

I understand there are reasons to dislike what Amazon does to grow their business. Some folks are unaware or just don’t care. Many of these things have been happening long before there was an internet. For example there used to be several lumber yards in my area who are now gone. It’s not that less lumber is being purchased, but they got destroyed by competitors who met the demands of the consumer. The dead ones refused to sell to the general public and closed at 5pm and closed weekends. Along came the big box home stores and gave people what they want, access to products and convenient shopping hours. There’s now several Home Depot and Lowes in my area and the few remaining lumber yards have extended hours and sell to the public, and are winning against the big box stores by offerring a wider variety of product in their niche, for example a wider variety of species, grades and cuts. Amazon is simply continuing that evolution online and competitors have to adjust. We may not like some of the change but it is what it is. Respond to the change in a way that suits you, and others will do so as well for themselves.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2019, 11:05 AM by Paul G »
+1

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1910
Re: How can people not shop at Amazon?
« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2019, 01:12 PM »
Lucky we live in a world that allows us to make the choice that suits us best. For some, I guess, that would be Amazon or an online company. For others, it is buying a product from a store in person which allows the opportunity to see it, touch it, and, many times, test it before buying. For screws, sandpaper, etc., the best choice, many times is online for the least price and because it's convenient. For larger tools, it might be online, but it also might be a place where you can see the tools and make decisions based on, not only information online, but how those tools fit your hand, maybe even work (if you can test). I'm not sure what the conflict is here. We all do what works for us individually.
Randy

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1032
  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: How can people not shop at Amazon?
« Reply #46 on: April 28, 2019, 01:42 PM »
Hi!

I don't see conflict. I see a great discussion of different points of view.

But it still goes much deeper than the obvious question of to buy or not to buy at Amazon. Because Amazon offers/services go and affect many people way beyond that.

Ever heard of Amazon web/ cloud storage services, for example?

Germany's federal police is going to rely on it for storage of video material from their soon to be more widely used body cams.

-> https://www.telecompaper.com/news/german-regulator-says-using-amazon-web-services-to-store-police-data-risks-us-espionage--1288610


And Alex is absolutely correct/ spot on, the single decision of not using Amazon won't really help in the long run/ with the actual cause.

Kind regards,
Oliver

Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1805
Re: How can people not shop at Amazon?
« Reply #47 on: April 28, 2019, 03:15 PM »
Ever heard of Amazon web/ cloud storage services, for example?
Germany's federal police is going to rely on it for storage of video material from their soon to be more widely used body cams.
So, they'll store their data off site. Is it bad?
We outsource storage of our money to private banks, medical records to private doctors, etc. etc. I'm sure Amazon will not take over the world.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2019, 03:18 PM by Svar »

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1032
  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: How can people not shop at Amazon?
« Reply #48 on: April 28, 2019, 03:23 PM »
It's a matter of trust to me.

I trust my doctor (although I have no idea who maintains his IT), I trust my health insurance (which documents I can access online, and are stored encrypted on German servers at least), I trust my Bank - partly.

I do not trust Amazon - for anything - at all. And I think such data should not be in their hands - although it is probably never going to affect me directly.

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1805
Re: How can people not shop at Amazon?
« Reply #49 on: April 28, 2019, 03:25 PM »
It's a matter of trust to me.
I trust my doctor (although I have no idea who maintains his IT), I trust my health insurance (which documents I can access online, and are stored encrypted on German servers at least), I trust my Bank - partly.
I do not trust Amazon - for anything - at all. And I think such data should not be in their hands - although it is probably never going to affect me directly.
Kind regards,
Oliver
Do you realize that your data is more secure on Amazon server than on your own computer?

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1032
  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: How can people not shop at Amazon?
« Reply #50 on: April 28, 2019, 03:29 PM »
It's a matter of trust to me.
I trust my doctor (although I have no idea who maintains his IT), I trust my health insurance (which documents I can access online, and are stored encrypted on German servers at least), I trust my Bank - partly.
I do not trust Amazon - for anything - at all. And I think such data should not be in their hands - although it is probably never going to affect me directly.
Kind regards,
Oliver
Do you realize that your data is more secure on Amazon server than on your own computer?

I consider that a pretty bold claim. Which I can obviously neither disproof or proof.

That said, I don't believe that anything is secure in the hands of Amazon.

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1718
Re: How can people not shop at Amazon?
« Reply #51 on: April 28, 2019, 04:48 PM »
Actually small businesses (accountants, lawyers, doctors, your local mechanic and even retailers setting up their online storefronts) are much more likely to be hacked.  Further, they may not know they got hacked.  I understand your mistrust for Amazon which is on a different level.  But the trust you might have for the little guy might be misplaced.  Here your problem may not be ill will or intent, just the fact that they don’t know what they don’t know.  They often hire out the minimum necessary to keep the lights on (desktop support, back ups and periodic software or firmware updates).  They have no way of knowing the third party did the job right and didn’t expose them to a breach.
-Raj

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1032
  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: How can people not shop at Amazon?
« Reply #52 on: April 28, 2019, 04:59 PM »
Totally understand that Raj.

My concern is not Amazon (or myself, or anyone else) being hacked, exposed to a breach or whatever. My concern is that - in this instance - I don't trust Amazon to abide by any agreement. I don't trust them not to use every bit of data they have any kind of access to for the companies gain and profit.

Whereas I trust my Doctor not to sell my medical data - because unlike Amazon - he has not given me any reason to think of him that way. Maybe I get up one day and have to admit I was wrong for trusting him, but not Amazon. That would be life. I guess. ;)

Maybe thats a better explanation of where my mistrust with Amazon lies. (And Facebook, and Google)

Deep inside I mistrust Amazon in such a way, that I'm sure they would use footage from German federal police's body cams if it benefited Bezos Washington Post's reporting.

I'm prepared to go offline/off-grid once my ultimate hard limits have been reached.

Kind regards,
Oliver

« Last Edit: April 28, 2019, 05:04 PM by six-point socket II »
Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 561
Re: How can people not shop at Amazon?
« Reply #53 on: April 29, 2019, 09:07 PM »
If it is electronic (in a computer) it is not secure, to easy to duplicate and move someplace else.  If computer is connected to the internet, it's over.  This is why stuff that matters is not done on systems that connect to anything.  Thus why defense systems, secret/classified data, and things of that nature don't connect to the internet, they instead use things like CD roms, and even floppys to move data around. Hard to hack/steal stuff when you need to gain physical access to it, and put yourself at risk.

Your Dr's office, medical stuff is in no way secure, those are among the least secure systems out there.  Your doctor is a doctor, the person manning the phones is not an IT tech.  The lack of a proper federal system where all data goes is the problem. It's the the rare place where a big database is needed.  Medical offices, hospitals have near no IT/security on your data. This is why you do everything you can to prevent them from having it. Even worse is they have decades of bad ideas and mis-understanding. Look how many have "forms" and want things like your Social Security number, not only do they have no reason for it, they can't go asking for it, but many demand it (never give it to them).  Many will swear they need to make a copy of your drivers license, that too is illegal and based on a mis-understanding of a law, even after congress and the supreme court clarified  both they do not need to make copies, it's also against the law, they still do it.   That said, the one small bit of hope is they do understand not sharing it, not giving it out, not selling it.  But the issue remains their systems are famously in-secure.

Again, soon as anything is online in a computer, it has no security.  Beyond that your are basically dependent on what people are going to target. A lot of places simply are not on the radar of anyone looking for info, so luck can be on your side.  Amazon is a target, as are all big companies.  They harvest, mine and curate massive databases on you, it makes them a huge target.  Plus they are the ones using it for bad. Amazon doesn't need to be hacked to do you harm.  Also you don't have to be involved with a company for them to have stuff on you and put you at risk.  People saw this with the credit reporting hack. Those who have never done anything associated with that reporting company had files because they had created one of you anyway. Or facebook, they have files on you, even if you have never had a facebook account or any involvement with facebook.

Never trust anyone with your information. Amazon makes money based on data on you.  They are "hacked" by design.  Most e-retailers learned long ago, people don't want accounts, logins, etc.  They aren't needed, just like you don't have those things at the corner store.  Let people make a purchase with as minimal information as possible. Amazon is one of the few retailers left that demand you create an account.

The US desperately needs to catch up to the EU, on this. But it's still a battle that is unclear if it can be one. Amazon and others can/could blackmail everyone in congress, so good luck expecting change there.

At least a large chunk of the population has had enough.  Retailers in New Jersey were trying to eliminate cash sales, the state came back and passed a law requiring they take cash.  Retailers had no ground to stand on since use of cash for payment is on the rise. Folks have had enough, data breeches did a lot for this. While I'm not full cash, there are retailers now I only use cash with, they showed they can't be remotely trusted.

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1718
Re: How can people not shop at Amazon?
« Reply #54 on: April 29, 2019, 09:32 PM »
Just to clear something up, officials aren’t objecting to cashless because a tide of people are turning to cash in fear of identity theft.  They are objecting because a significant portion of the low income population would be excluded from doing business in any establishment that didn’t accept cash.  It becomes a form of discrimination, and THAT is why legislators reacted.

And please, don’t follow with an expression about how you feel about that...politics don’t belong here.  I’m just clarifying the reasons they did this.
-Raj