Author Topic: [Project 23] Black walnut and quilted maple hallway table  (Read 4400 times)

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Offline mattbyington

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Working on the top first.

Matt


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Offline mattbyington

  • Posts: 350
Re: [Project 23] Black walnut and quilted maple hallway table
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2019, 11:44 PM »

Offline Don T

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Re: [Project 23] Black walnut and quilted maple hallway table
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2019, 02:07 AM »
That is going to be beautiful.
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Offline kcufstoidi

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Re: [Project 23] Black walnut and quilted maple hallway table
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2019, 07:44 AM »
I've always like the combination of Black Walnut and Maple. Matt I would do a little reading on the potential for differential expansion/contraction of dissimilar woods. Capturing the maple the way you have with a mitered frame is typically not an advisable build.

Offline mattbyington

  • Posts: 350
Re: [Project 23] Black walnut and quilted maple hallway table
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2019, 07:41 PM »
Thanks team! Will do! I know I need to read up on it. Building stuff is just so fun though. Nothing has spontaneously combusted yet ;)

Gotta figure the legs out next - have them rough-cut but need to decide on taper or curve, and plan the apron out.

Matt


Offline derekcohen

  • Posts: 333
    • In The Woodshop
Re: [Project 23] Black walnut and quilted maple hallway table
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2019, 08:00 PM »
Matt

How will this panel cope with expansion and contraction, which is due to the change in humidity?

Typically, the panel needs to float inside the frame, where it can move. The construction you have has locked the panel and frame together very solidly .... too much so? Keep in mind that the woods are different, and likely react to moisture differently.

Regards from Perth

Derek
« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 08:02 PM by derekcohen »

Offline cpw

  • Posts: 154
Re: [Project 23] Black walnut and quilted maple hallway table
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2019, 10:23 PM »
An alternative to having the panel float is to let the end pieces float (lookup "bread board ends").  Matt, the wood might expand/contract as much as 7% along the width [depending on species], but less than 1% with the grain (and plywood is even more stable than just with the grain alone).  The panel in the middle could theoretically get an 1/2" or an inch bigger, while the outside changes almost not at all.

Have fun building, it does look gorgeous.

Offline mattbyington

  • Posts: 350
Re: [Project 23] Black walnut and quilted maple hallway table
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2019, 10:51 AM »
Thanks for the replies! Expansion and contraction was discussed a little earlier in this thread already :) but I appreciate your guys' concern! If it breaks it breaks, oh well. Was still fun building it :)

Offline derekcohen

  • Posts: 333
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Re: [Project 23] Black walnut and quilted maple hallway table
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2019, 12:58 PM »
Matt, your choice of wood is good. You have an eye to match grain. You have all the tools you could ever need to build great furniture .... but joinery design is at the heart of furniture building and must not be ignored.

At the moment you are building for the next few hours or weeks. After that the piece will self-destruct. Sorry to spoil the fun. Design must include an understanding of how wood moves. Modern tools and modern joinery do not overcome this. It seems to me that it is possible to replace traditional mortice-and-tenon joinery with Dominos and biscuits, and because it is quick and does not require hand skills, many believe that they can skip over the lessons learned over hundreds of years about joinery and wood movement. Not so. Dominos may simplify joints, but one must still take the time to learn the fundamentals of design. Matt, pull the pieces apart and consider how they could go together ... and stay together over the next 100 years.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Offline kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 832
Re: [Project 23] Black walnut and quilted maple hallway table
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2019, 02:00 PM »
Derek I honestly think we are wasting are time trying to help this one, especially with his replies. The only hope is that it might help some of the others reading the thread.

Offline mrFinpgh

  • Posts: 318
Re: [Project 23] Black walnut and quilted maple hallway table
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2019, 07:04 PM »
Given your responses, i'm trying to understand the motivation for using a solid quilted maple panel in the first place.  It seems like the design of a mitered frame around a contrasting panel is the priority for you as opposed to being able to use solid wood for the entire piece.

If so, wouldn't you be better off using veneer and MDF for your panel?  It would probably open up more aesthetic possibilities while avoiding the inevitable issues that come with a captive solid wood panel.


Offline mattbyington

  • Posts: 350
Re: [Project 23] Black walnut and quilted maple hallway table
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2019, 07:33 PM »
@derekcohen @kcufstoidi @mrFinpgh on the contrary! I actually really do genuinely appreciate your replies. You have taken the time out of your day to try to educate me on things you have learned over your time woodworking - you didn’t have to do that but you did, ostensibly because you care about the community of woodworking.

I re-read my reply and I agree, it comes off frivolous and facetious. That was absolutely not what I intended. I guess I just meant for this project, what is done is done (it’s glued now).

But I absolutely will change the way I do projects from now
On. I always learn from everyone on this forum and greatly appreciate the advice.

Apologies if I offended or anything. I really do love learning from you all and trying to offer any help I have to anyone as well.

Matt

Offline Roachmill

  • Posts: 154
Re: [Project 23] Black walnut and quilted maple hallway table
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2019, 07:43 PM »
I hope you take this in the manner its intended, but those mitred corners will open with the slightest expansion of the centre piece. Contraction will do similar. You obviously have access to some beautiful wood (not jealous at all!) so, as others have suggested, could you cut the ends off and do breadboard ends instead? The wood whisperer has a good video on the tube about doing it with dominos which I've *ahem* drawn inspiration from with great results.
I think the general consensus here is that wood will find a way to move and there's a reason construction methods haven't changed all that much over the centuries... even with the advent of Dominos ;)

Edit: you've replied as I was typing. As much as lopping off the ends would make someone wince, it's still an option... hopefully.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2019, 07:46 PM by Roachmill »

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1839
Re: [Project 23] Black walnut and quilted maple hallway table
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2019, 08:22 PM »
cut the ends off and do breadboard ends instead
Excellent suggestion. Minimal efforts and very little loss of material.

Alternatively, if you apply liberal amount of penetrating epoxy over that panel, it will never expand. And it does not give the wood "plastic" look.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 6468
Re: [Project 23] Black walnut and quilted maple hallway table
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2019, 02:29 AM »
So not wanting to start a turf war, but rather wanting to more fully understand the situation, I’m looking for some informed answers.

Matt lives in Southern California from what I surmise which has a temperate climate and also has a low humidity index. Svar also suggests that encapsulating the wood in epoxy will minimize the across-grain wood growth.

So given these issues, how likely is this table going to self-destroy and how soon will it happen? Just curious.

Will total encapsulation prevent disaster?

Offline derekcohen

  • Posts: 333
    • In The Woodshop
Re: [Project 23] Black walnut and quilted maple hallway table
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2019, 04:37 AM »
Cheese, I doubt that "total encapsulation" is actually possible. In any event, there is already moisture inside the wood. Wood breathes. It takes it in and it lets it out. If you seal the wood, the moisture inside will expand in the heat of sunlight. There is also the differential expansion of the two woods used. Lastly, mitres are about the most sensitive to any expansion/contraction, and they will open up.

The suggestion of breadboard ends is a good one. The alternative, if mitres are desired, is what should have been done at the start: frame-and-panel with a mitred frame. Saw off the walnut banding, rebate the maple to create a tongue, make a fresh frame from walnut, mitre the ends, and then add a groove for the tongue to move inside. This would likely be new territory for Matt, and a wonderful opportunity to take his work to the next level.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Offline mattbyington

  • Posts: 350
Re: [Project 23] Black walnut and quilted maple hallway table
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2019, 10:12 AM »
Thank you guys for the great discussion. 

I’ll just post one or two more, almost done with it.

After this one I will be more careful and thoughtful building future pieces.

Matt


Offline DynaGlide

  • Posts: 490
Re: [Project 23] Black walnut and quilted maple hallway table
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2019, 10:30 AM »
Hey @mattbyington since this has turned into a learning thread of sorts how did you go about attaching the top to the aprons? I know the top not being allowed to move has already been addressed so it's moot at this point. . Just want to make sure you're aware of the need for table buttons of some sort for any table designs for future reference.
Instagram @matts.garage

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4222
Re: [Project 23] Black walnut and quilted maple hallway table
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2019, 10:52 AM »
So not wanting to start a turf war, but rather wanting to more fully understand the situation, I’m looking for some informed answers.

Matt lives in Southern California from what I surmise which has a temperate climate and also has a low humidity index. Svar also suggests that encapsulating the wood in epoxy will minimize the across-grain wood growth.

So given these issues, how likely is this table going to self-destroy and how soon will it happen? Just curious.

Will total encapsulation prevent disaster?

I visited Sam Malloof’s Place with several FOG/tF guys back when Sam was still supervising his crew. In the house were several tables with breadboard ends, some several decades old. I was astonished that the ends were flush with the sides of the tables. That’s pretty much impossible we’re I live, almost diagonally opposite of SoCal.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4222
Re: [Project 23] Black walnut and quilted maple hallway table
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2019, 11:03 AM »
Matt, putting a tight fitting mitered frame around solid natural wood is a recipe for failure, at least where I live. The mitered joints might survive a man made core. As has been said, a learning project.

I’d go ahead and complete the lesson via the advice above and salvage that beautiful panel. The frame is just ordinary and can be milled down to become another frame for another project.

Offline mattbyington

  • Posts: 350
Re: [Project 23] Black walnut and quilted maple hallway table
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2019, 11:41 AM »
Thank you everyone for the feedback. I am going to go through with finishing this table as planned. I am sure it will break, as you have all mentioned. It'll just be a learning point for me and I won't do it again. That's what this is all about. But I'd like to finish what I started.

PS - someone was asking me via PM about the circular things. Those are 3.5" Miller dowels, with glue, to add strength to the joint.

@DynaGlide sorry that picture was misleading - the top isn't attached yet.

In fact, the "base" components of the table are only glued up on the short side.

I still need to:
1) Glue the long sides
2) Add profiling to the top (thinking a chamfer).
2) Attach the top to the legs + aprons

It's not done yet, I was just mocking it up on my floor.

Matt


Offline mattbyington

  • Posts: 350
Re: [Project 23] Black walnut and quilted maple hallway table
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2019, 06:53 PM »

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: [Project 23] Black walnut and quilted maple hallway table
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2019, 07:28 PM »
Beautiful table.  And @mattbyington I personally respect you for how you go forward and are willing to learn as you go.  Woodworking is a journey.  The comments and warnings about wood expansion are legit but rather than getting offended you handled it all so well.  (At least on the forum.  You may have kicked the cat soccer ball a few times in private.)

Love your posts and am looking forward to many more!

Peter

Offline reidbailey

  • Posts: 19
Re: [Project 23] Black walnut and quilted maple hallway table
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2019, 10:09 AM »
Looks great Matt!


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Offline mattbyington

  • Posts: 350
Re: [Project 23] Black walnut and quilted maple hallway table
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2019, 04:13 PM »
Thank you both very very much!! Really appreciate it!

Here it is finished with the final coAt drying.

Matt


Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 786
Re: [Project 23] Black walnut and quilted maple hallway table
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2019, 04:41 PM »
Looks beautiful Matt, and I hope it stays durable for you. The contrast in wood colour and grain, makes it look very distinctive  [thumbs up]

Offline mattbyington

  • Posts: 350
Re: [Project 23] Black walnut and quilted maple hallway table
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2019, 10:45 AM »
Thanks!!

Offline HarveyWildes

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Re: [Project 23] Black walnut and quilted maple hallway table
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2019, 04:51 AM »
@mattbyington that's a very nice looking table.


With regard to the construction, I'd recommend Bruce Hoadley's book Understanding Wood.  He has a lot of detail, some of which I've never used, but... honestly I learned so much from it that I apply something from the book to every project I do.  My feeling is that the more you know about your material, the better job you'll do with it, and Hoadley's book is simply the best that I've read on the subject.


Offline Rob Z

  • Posts: 816
Re: [Project 23] Black walnut and quilted maple hallway table
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2019, 11:28 AM »
Hi Matt

That is a beautiful piece of furniture.  Thanks for posting the finished picture. 

I have read nearly everything I can find on this and other forums by Derek in Australia. He has  a wealth of info and hopefully you have learned some tips from him , as well.

Offline therogd

  • Posts: 2
Re: [Project 23] Black walnut and quilted maple hallway table
« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2019, 08:18 PM »
You have received some wise input - from some wise folks.
Wood will generally not move along its length. It will move about 1% tangentially and 2% radially in its width. So a 12 inch board will move 1/4 of an inch - and its amazingly strong in doing so. It varies by species, region of the country and time of year - all things you have to take into account if you are building furniture.
Also - end grain to end grain joints are horrible (ie the miters) and will fail without support. End grain to long grain are not great. Long grain to long grain joints are very strong. So dominos on the long grain to long grain joint and unsupported miters ?? Not being critical - just some stuff you have to get into if you want to build pieces that will last longer than a year.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 08:27 PM by therogd »