Author Topic: Edge Band Clamping  (Read 3841 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 269
Edge Band Clamping
« on: June 20, 2019, 06:24 PM »
I'm building some cabinets for the wood shop which will have casters in case I want to move them around, pull them out and use them for infeed/outfeed support, etc.  Because I might set something on top, I've designed them with the top/deck to overlap the sides.  These will roll underneath benches where I set heavier stuff and am not sure how much weight I'd really ever set on top of these cabinets at any time when they're out in the open as I don't want to cause them to sag.

That said, as I built my first cabinet, I glued 3/4" Walnut edge banding on the front/rear of the top/deck first and afterwards thought it would have been better to do the sides first and front/rear to cover the ends of the side trim; however, I don't have any 4' long clamps so I decided to try these Rockler rubber band type spring clamps. 

Titebond recommends 45 minutes of clamping time with some 100+ psi pressure.  I've no idea how much that translates into considering these clamps or my parallel clamps for that matter but am wondering if these create enough pressure to adequately glue the banding where it's not going to fall apart while standing still, using it, or even setting something on top of moderate weight?

299488-0

299490-1

Here you can see the clamps have slid and loosened some in just 10-15 minutes but still have some unknown amount of pressure.

299492-2

299494-3

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 773
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2019, 06:38 PM »
I would use clamps where the actual jaw/foot of the clamp is on the edge banding.
It looks like the clamp bands have pushed the edging down?

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 269
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2019, 08:38 PM »
I would use clamps where the actual jaw/foot of the clamp is on the edge banding.
It looks like the clamp bands have pushed the edging down?

I don’t have clamps that long so I’d have to settle for the front/rear banding running between the sides and live with seeing the side edge banding in the front.

Yes, the rubber clamps hold the edging tight but how tight is tight enough?  If this is tight enough then I’m able to do the sides first and then the front/rear which is preferred.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6447
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2019, 08:44 PM »
Those Rockler clamps appear to be about 1.5” wide. So if the edge banding is say, 1” wide then the area is 1.5 square inches. To obtain a 100 psi clamp pressure those clamps would have to be applying 150 pounds. What you think...?

I’m thinking they’re probably applying 10 psi or less to the edge banding.

I’m also not saying that the edge banding while using these clamps, will not adhere to the substrate...I don’t know... I think it may but I don’t know for sure. Some people swear by blue painters tape.

How about an alternative approach. You have an MFT, clamp the board down purchase a couple of short Besseys, reverse the ends of the clamp and use them as pushers. If you introduce a clamping caul into the mix, you’ll equalize the pressure against the edge banding.

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1746
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2019, 08:48 PM »
I don’t think that’s going to do it.  Those rubber bands are good for less than 5lbs.  They are intended for 1mm banding, but 3/4” presents a lever that will stress the joint.  I would use splines, dominos or router bits for your edge banding which will give you 2x more surface area for the glue.  And better clamping.
-Raj

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 269
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2019, 08:54 PM »
I don’t think that’s going to do it.  Those rubber bands are good for less than 5lbs.  They are intended for 1mm banding, but 3/4” presents a lever that will stress the joint.  I would use splines, dominos or router bits for your edge banding which will give you 2x more surface area for the glue.  And better clamping.

Thanks, unfortunately my Domino is not working well. I glued the first cabinet front/rear banding and clamped them tight and as I’ve heard a properly glued joint will not break at the joint. Do you agree or do I need to stop edge banding and wait for my Domino to be fixed?

Offline Alanbach

  • Posts: 402
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2019, 09:29 PM »
Do you own any nail guns? They make great clamps.

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 269
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2019, 09:54 PM »
Those Rockler clamps appear to be about 1.5” wide. So if the edge banding is say, 1” wide then the area is 1.5 square inches. To obtain a 100 psi clamp pressure those clamps would have to be applying 150 pounds. What you think...?

I seen the painters tape and these clamps used but for sure this isn’t meeting the glue spec and since it’s the banding which will rest on the outer walls and support all the weight I’ll cut this off and use the piece for something else.


Quote
How about an alternative approach. You have an MFT, clamp the board down purchase a couple of short Besseys, reverse the ends of the clamp and use them as pushers. If you introduce a clamping caul into the mix, you’ll equalize the pressure against the edge banding.

I’ve the Bessy Revo Jr and not sure they can be reversed or not. The board is actually so wide it covers the outer rows of holes. I flipped it to run perpendicular, put some dogs in the back, clamped it down on both sides, put my Super Parf dogs in the front off to the side, added a thick Walnut board behind them, and tried to use my clamp this way but it was bending the dogs over way to much.

Looks like I need to buy some bigger clamps!  Do you recommend parallel clamps, pipe clamps, bar clamps, etc.?

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6447
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2019, 10:38 PM »

1. I seen the painters tape and these clamps used but for sure this isn’t meeting the glue spec and since it’s the banding which will rest on the outer walls and support all the weight I’ll cut this off and use the piece for something else.

2. I’ve the Bessy Revo Jr and not sure they can be reversed or not. The board is actually so wide it covers the outer rows of holes. I flipped it to run perpendicular, put some dogs in the back, clamped it down on both sides, put my Super Parf dogs in the front off to the side, added a thick Walnut board behind them, and tried to use my clamp this way but it was bending the dogs over way to much.

Looks like I need to buy some bigger clamps!  Do you recommend parallel clamps, pipe clamps, bar clamps, etc.?

1. You're right, those clamps are not meeting the glue spec. But that doesn't mean the edge banding won't last unless it's being banged around a lot. For decorative purposes your method may well prove successful.  [smile] 

For potential rough treatment, I'd use a mechanical attachment method, tongue & groove, dovetail or a Domino. That way you're not relying on the glue line for strength.
Personally I'd go for a Domino through the face of the edge banding because it's easy and strong...it's probably also arguably stronger than the other mentioned options. If you want you could fabricate you own Dominos in walnut to minimize their appearance.

Here's an example of a home made Brazilian cherry plug in some Brazilian cherry edging. Easy to see from 6"...impossible to see from 36".




2. If you need to purchase clamps, I'm a big fan of the Bessey K-Body clamps.

The Bessey Revo Jr clamps are reversible so you're in luck. Add a caul and you're in business.

https://www.bessey.de/en-US/BESSEY-Tools-North-America/Products/Clamping-Tools/K-Body-Parallel-and-case-clamps/K-Body®-REVO™-JR
« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 10:41 PM by Cheese »

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 269
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2019, 10:56 PM »
I bought a tongue and groove router bit but figured I’d use it in the future when I’m not in a rush to get things done, if that ever happens. Lol.  I’d very much like to use the Domino but I’m not sure if I should use mine with the alignment issues I’m having or put the project on hold until I get it resolved?

I found two brand new 98” Jet parallel clamps on local CL for $175.  Extremely large for my needs at the moment but smaller 50” Jet/Bessey clamps are $150/$100 for a pair.  Would you go larger or something in the middle say 50-60”?

Offline hdv

  • Posts: 67
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2019, 11:06 PM »
I use Bessey EKT55 clamps for this. Depending on the load I expect the edges to take I may route the edges with a CMT 8/955.510
 bit first. For any substantial edge banding I wouldn't want to trust the type of clamps shown in your picture.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6447
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2019, 11:15 PM »
I’d very much like to use the Domino but I’m not sure if I should use mine with the alignment issues.

The alignment issues won’t make a difference as long as you secure the edge banding and then make a face plunge. After the plunges are made, glue the banding and add the Dominos one by one. Sand flush.

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 269
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2019, 11:21 PM »
I’d very much like to use the Domino but I’m not sure if I should use mine with the alignment issues.

The alignment issues won’t make a difference as long as you secure the edge banding and then make a face plunge. After the plunges are made, glue the banding and add the Dominos one by one. Sand flush.

Ahh, I wasn’t thinking through cuts. I’d rather hide the tenons so I’ll have to see if there’s some easy way to make Walnut tenons. Thanks for the idea!

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 269
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2019, 11:27 PM »
I use Bessey EKT55 clamps for this. Depending on the load I expect the edges to take I may route the edges with a CMT 8/955.510
 bit first. For any substantial edge banding I wouldn't want to trust the type of clamps shown in your picture.

I’ll have to check on that clamp, very interesting indeed, thanks!

I’ve similar routing bit for edge banding but haven’t used it yet and figured it may take a while to setup accurately. I’m just trying to get a few cabinets made so I can actually walk around the shop and not have to keep moving things around but I know I need to slow down and build it strong so it doesn’t collapse on me down the road when I set something to heavy on it. 

Whiteside Router Bits 3400 Edge... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003HC3VEU

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 773
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2019, 04:41 AM »
If you’re short on clamps, a different type of glue might be a better option, with the aid of weight. Some wood cements and contact adhesives have incredible adhesion strength and fast cure times.
When buying clamps, try and buy quality, I always buy quality but, if I can’t afford it, I’ll wait till I can.

I had some cheap sash clamps donated to me by a retired customer, so not complaining but, the first time we used them to make a lot of ply boxes, when we tensioned them, the handles bent, and a couple of them suffered with the jaw creasing the rail.
The scrap value went toward more Bessey’s
Decent clamps, looked after will last a lifetime.

Offline tomp

  • Posts: 97
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2019, 08:24 AM »
I don't know how often you would use the long clamps, talking about a fair bit of money there. I found this video out there a while back that shows a home-made clamp for attaching heavier section edge banding - it's a little crude, but could be cleaned up and the cost would certainly be right It could be refined easily by replacing the disc at the rear with a tapered pivoting show at the back and used with a matching wedge.

Made a lot of countertops with wide edging so that the laminate could run over the top and then have the edge shaped and glued the banding on with a combination of pipe clamps and the 3-way clamps that Pony used to sell, but we made a bunch of these when we had a lot of work to get out.

299528-0

For thin banding (1/8" - 3/16" thick), I've had a lot of success just using masking tape - Lee Valley sells a (green) tape that they claim has extra stretch to provide extra pressure, it's actually a standard 3M product that you can find with a little digging if you can't wait for shipping. The tape works well by itself if you don't want holes in the banding, but a combination of pin nails and the tape works well for shop cabinets.

299530-1

Offline SRSemenza

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 8954
  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2019, 09:19 AM »
I have some of the Bessey EKT55 edge clamps and they work very well. But they are pricey.  If investing in clamps and you have access  to both sides you will be better off getting long bar clamps for more versatility. At least dollar wise. Otherwise though I can say that the Bessey edge clamps work well, and better than any other similar type that I have tried.

Another option would be clamping cauls. Though I find them fumbly  to get in place.

Seth

Offline Chris Cianci

  • Posts: 48
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2019, 09:55 AM »
I own 50+ Bessey clamps, many came from retiring hobbyists yard sale etc. as well as many bought new. If you don’t choose to go either new or used Bessey (or similar quality)route  I’d get pipe clamps w various pipe lengths 2’, 4’ 6’ etc etc etc and get couplers for the pipe and custom assemble the clamps you need that way, it takes up less storage room, it’s customizable and cheap. There is  the argument of clamping pressure however your current question is about edgebanding and isn’t very structural. This approach leaves more funds in the Festool acquisition fund as well LOL

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 269
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2019, 10:18 AM »
I have some of the Bessey EKT55 edge clamps and they work very well. But they are pricey.  If investing in clamps and you have access  to both sides you will be better off getting long bar clamps for more versatility. At least dollar wise. Otherwise though I can say that the Bessey edge clamps work well, and better than any other similar type that I have tried.

Another option would be clamping cauls. Though I find them fumbly  to get in place.

Seth

Thanks!  The little shorty clamps look nice but since I'll eventually need to clamp the entire cabinet together it's probably higher priority to get longer clamps.  That said, how many clamps would you recommend for a cabinet like this?

To help understand what's happening here, I've edge banded the top/deck's all around and the sides on the front/rear. running between the top/deck.  The front stretchers and partition will also receive edge banding.  I was planning to domino the stretchers and partition on the bottom/back for alignment.  Since the cabinet inside is pre-finished I doubt glue would do anything so I may need to sand that area or Kreg screw?  For assembly, assuming my XL 700 get's aligned soon and I can use Domino's, I was planning to assemble the stretchers to the partition, slide the back onto the partition, slide the sides on to the back and stretchers, and finally slide the top/deck on.  Afterwards I assume I need to clamp the cabinet lengthwise on the bottom, back, and top but am not sure I need 2, 3, or 4, clamps per side.  Any insight is much appreciated.

299542-0

299544-1

Offline BarneyD

  • Posts: 86
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2019, 10:21 AM »
Like Chris, I also have a bunch of Bessey clamps but most are less than 4 feet long. For longer stuff I also prefer pipe clamps. But if time and/or money is the tyrant, I've used rope. Just make a loop around your project and then drive in wooden wedges between the rope and your edge banding to clamp tight. You can get quite a bit of pressure this way (for super cheap).
Good luck.
Barney

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 269
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2019, 10:23 AM »
I own 50+ Bessey clamps, many came from retiring hobbyists yard sale etc. as well as many bought new. If you don’t choose to go either new or used Bessey (or similar quality)route  I’d get pipe clamps w various pipe lengths 2’, 4’ 6’ etc etc etc and get couplers for the pipe and custom assemble the clamps you need that way, it takes up less storage room, it’s customizable and cheap. There is  the argument of clamping pressure however your current question is about edgebanding and isn’t very structural. This approach leaves more funds in the Festool acquisition fund as well LOL

Thanks!  Actually the cabinet walls will be underneath the edge banding so all the weight of the drawers will push down on the edge banding for the deck and anything sitting on top will push down on the edge banding for the top/deck.  I'm not planning to set an engine on it but I don't want it falling apart if I ever forget and do set something on top.  I've only edge banded 1 cabinet and the start of another so I may have to Domino those with through cuts or some dowels to prevent this worst case scenario.

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 269
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2019, 10:24 AM »
Like Chris, I also have a bunch of Bessey clamps but most are less than 4 feet long. For longer stuff I also prefer pipe clamps. But if time and/or money is the tyrant, I've used rope. Just make a loop around your project and then drive in wooden wedges between the rope and your edge banding to clamp tight. You can get quite a bit of pressure this way (for super cheap).
Good luck.

Wow, we've some very resourceful people here, thanks for sharing!

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 269
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2019, 11:26 AM »
Home Depot actually has the regular Bessey 50" K-Body REVOlution (KRE) Parallel Clamp with Composite Plastic Handle and 3-3/4 in. Throat Depth on sale for $45 each right now which seems reasonable.

I bought 4 of them as that's all my local store had in stock but suspect ideally I need a total of 6 or 8 to clamp up wider cabinets?
« Last Edit: June 21, 2019, 11:38 AM by Bugsysiegals »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6447
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2019, 11:45 AM »
Home Depot actually has the regular Bessey 50" K-Body REVOlution (KRE) Parallel Clamp with Composite Plastic Handle and 3-3/4 in. Throat Depth on sale for $45 each right now which seems reasonable.

That's a good price...I paid $55-$60 for my 50" Bessey's from HD a few years ago.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4216
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2019, 12:31 PM »
You’ve got too much overhang and too little clamping. It might hold up...

There are a couple thousand ways to clamp something like that starting with stacking weights or twisting a rope loop and then moving on to the second millennium B.C.

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 773
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2019, 02:40 PM »
I noticed nowadays a few clamp makers, Bessey and Irwin for example, offer joining pieces, that join two clamps in the middle doubling their usable length.

For a small workshop or somebody on a budget, these would be handy to have in the draw.
You could join two 300mm 12” and make them 600mm 24” or two 600mm 24” and make 1200mm 48”. 600mm is a popular size, so a few of them with joiners, would open up opportunities and not break the bank.

We have single clamps up to a length of 2500mm IIRC (just over 8’ 2”) and believe it or not, we’ve had at least two jobs where we’ve had to join them!

Offline hdv

  • Posts: 67
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2019, 04:36 PM »
If you find setting up specific types of router bits troublesome, here's a tip.

I always have some small blocks of UHMW ready. Once I have found a proper setting for a router bit that requires a very precise setup I always make a setup block of the stuff for later use. That makes repeating the same setup at a later time a breeze. I just grab the setup block I need and place that against the router bit in the table. I then adjust the height 'til the bit fits just right. Sometimes I write an offset for the fence on the blocks as well. But that might not work for you. I have an Incra LS Positioner on my router table with one scale that I never move just for this. This allows for almost perfect repeatability.

I do this for drawer lock bits, lock miter bits, tongue & groove bits, and all other "complex" bits. Sometimes I need to do this for a few different thicknesses, but the small variations in say 18mm ply thickness do not even require this.

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 269
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2019, 05:25 PM »
If you find setting up specific types of router bits troublesome, here's a tip.

I always have some small blocks of UHMW ready. Once I have found a proper setting for a router bit that requires a very precise setup I always make a setup block of the stuff for later use. That makes repeating the same setup at a later time a breeze. I just grab the setup block I need and place that against the router bit in the table. I then adjust the height 'til the bit fits just right. Sometimes I write an offset for the fence on the blocks as well. But that might not work for you. I have an Incra LS Positioner on my router table with one scale that I never move just for this. This allows for almost perfect repeatability.

I do this for drawer lock bits, lock miter bits, tongue & groove bits, and all other "complex" bits. Sometimes I need to do this for a few different thicknesses, but the small variations in say 18mm ply thickness do not even require this.

Thanks, I actually have the bench dog extension table attached to the SawStop with Incra Wonder fence. It has the Incra lift and Porter Cable 3HP router but no dust collection underneath yet, future project to make a cabinet underneath for bits and DC, and seemed I’d be making a heck of a mess so I’ve not used it yet.

I have this Freud easy set and haven’t used it yet either ... I suspect this is the concept behind what your doing and perhaps this might even work well enough for now?  Now I kind of want to give it a go but would you create dominos first, if not using through cut, and then use the edge banding bit or would you not do both?
« Last Edit: June 21, 2019, 05:55 PM by Bugsysiegals »

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 269
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2019, 05:29 PM »
Unfortunately the Freud easy setup doesn’t include the edge banding profile so I’ll have to make some scrap as a template like you did ... where can I find that material for a good price?

I also just realized I’ve already ripped all my edge banding for the first two cabinets to 19mm width.  I need more Walnut for the remaining two and like the idea of it being able to support more weight so I’ll give it a go.  My questions still remain whether I should Domino beforehand while the wood is square and not profiled and I assume I’d profile the entire edge of the plywood, the entire edge of the shorter edge banding, and the center of the longer edge banding leaving the last 19mm or so flat so you can’t see the profile on the edge?
« Last Edit: June 21, 2019, 05:53 PM by Bugsysiegals »

Offline hdv

  • Posts: 67
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2019, 05:57 PM »
Well, to be honest I copied the idea when I saw it on the site of Infinity. See this webpage for an example.

Personally I would not combine a profiled edge with domino's. That feels like a wearing a belt ánd suspenders.  [big grin]

At the moment I don't have a Domino machine anyway, but if I had it I wouldn't do it. I suspect that the lip on the routed profile over the full length of the edge will be able to take more load than the few domino's you might insert. However there are situations where I definitely might prefer domino's over a profiled edge. You need to think of questions like "How thick will the edge banding be?", "Should the domino's be invisible?", "How thick is the material that would receive the banding?", and so on.

If you are doubting whether your edge banding will take the shearing load then I can only help you with this: I have not yet had any edge banding fail me that was properly glued. Neither with or without routed profile. Applying sufficient glue, using good quality glue, proper storage of glue, watching the shelf-life of the glue, enough clamping pressure (and that does not have to mean enormous numbers of Newtons), and clean straight edges have always been good enough for me 'til now. But my edge bandings rarely are made to bear much load.