Author Topic: Edge Band Clamping  (Read 3874 times)

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Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 269
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2019, 12:16 PM »
I bought 4 of the Besseys yesterday and they’re amazing!! I’m considering buying another 4 but wonder whether 8 will be enough or if 4 x 50’s is enough and I should get 4 x longer ones???

I’ve read a few other threads where people said they barely use 50” clamps for cabinet glue ups which I don’t understand. In my case, now that the tops/decks are edge banded all around and since the sides run between them, I can use my 36” Bessey clamps to clamp the sides, 50” clamps to clamp the back between the sides, and perhaps 50’s across the front where the stretchers are located. I could get by with 4 x 50’s if I used cauls in the 4 corners otherwise 8 would probably do. Aren’t kitchen cabinet runs longer than 4’ thus requiring longer clamps?

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Offline SRSemenza

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  • Finger Lakes Region, NY State , USA
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2019, 12:50 PM »
You can also use the Bessey parallels edge wise to cover about six inches with the jaw.

Seth

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 269
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2019, 01:23 PM »
You can also use the Bessey parallels edge wise to cover about six inches with the jaw.

Seth

I assume you mean to put them in the corners with the jaw facing towards each other to cover 6” and then 0 or 1 clamp in the center perpendicular?

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 788
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2019, 01:56 PM »
I bought 4 of the Besseys yesterday and they’re amazing!! I’m considering buying another 4 but wonder whether 8 will be enough or if 4 x 50’s is enough and I should get 4 x longer ones???

I’ve read a few other threads where people said they barely use 50” clamps for cabinet glue ups which I don’t understand. In my case, now that the tops/decks are edge banded all around and since the sides run between them, I can use my 36” Bessey clamps to clamp the sides, 50” clamps to clamp the back between the sides, and perhaps 50’s across the front where the stretchers are located. I could get by with 4 x 50’s if I used cauls in the 4 corners otherwise 8 would probably do. Aren’t kitchen cabinet runs longer than 4’ thus requiring longer clamps?

As I said yesterday, if you don’t have longer clamps, or not enough longer ones, you can join your shorter clamps to double their working length.
What length you buy, depends on what you’re making and how often.
Over here, 300mm, 600mm, 800mm, 1000mm and 1200mm Bessey’s are popular, and in the commercial workshops you see the real long clamps.

We use our 1000mm and 1200mm clamps frequently.

Offline hdv

  • Posts: 70
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2019, 02:08 PM »
I have 8 myself. Most of the time that is enough. When it is not there is always 2 parallel sides I can clamp with my Bessey K-Body Clamps. However those are quite heavy, so if they can be used I often turn to the Uniklamps instead (*). They are not very long, nor as strong as the K-Bodies, but for edge banding they are plenty strong. Edge banding certainly doesn't require forces like you would need when glueing up a table top.

(*) Also from Bessey, apologies if this seems like plugging one specific brand. I just like that brand of clamps better than other brands. However, I do like my Dubuques a lot as well.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2019, 03:52 PM »
You can also use the Bessey parallels edge wise to cover about six inches with the jaw.

Seth

I assume you mean to put them in the corners with the jaw facing towards each other to cover 6” and then 0 or 1 clamp in the center perpendicular?


Like this .............................

     Sometimes I angle them if the location of the pressure needs to be adjusted.  They will pull a bit more on the bar side. But it is fairly even especially if you don't go overkill on the force. I try to put the clamps on the "show" side just in case they don't pull as tight on the side opposite the bar. In general it's not a problem.


                


Seth

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 269
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2019, 11:45 PM »
I ended up buying another 4 of the 50” Bessey parallel clamps but thanks for sharing that, I’m sure I’ll use the technique sooner than later. Any reason you took those Black plastic caps off the clamps?

Offline tjbnwi

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  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2019, 11:54 PM »
These are handy for your situation.

https://www.rockler.com/4-way-equal-pressure-clamp

Also nice to have.

http://www.bowclamp.com/buy.html

Tom

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2019, 12:49 AM »
I ended up buying another 4 of the 50” Bessey parallel clamps but thanks for sharing that, I’m sure I’ll use the technique sooner than later. Any reason you took those Black plastic caps off the clamps?

I have some on, some off.   They provide a  little  extra surface area. They also grip the bar a enough to make it hard to slide the head with one hand. Which can be award at times. So in the middle of a glue up they tend to just get yanked off. What I should do is just enlarge the opening that wraps around the bar a bit. But just one of those things that I haven't gotten to.

Seth

Offline Cheese

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Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2019, 02:15 AM »
Any reason you took those Black plastic caps off the clamps?

Ya because they get in the way...

Most of mine are relegated to that Systainer that's titled..."Just incase I might need these at a later date".

I've never really experienced a difference in the amount of glue inertness between the red plastic items and the black plastic items. Chances are they're both injection molded from the same resin...the color is probably the only difference

.

Offline derekcohen

  • Posts: 333
    • In The Woodshop
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2019, 08:05 AM »
Good grief. You guys really know how to complicate matters. I simply stretch blue tape across the edges. The tape will stretch and apply enough pressure. It also enables easier adjustment after clamping.



Regards from Perth

Derek

Offline hdv

  • Posts: 70
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2019, 08:25 AM »
Hi Derek, I regularly use edge banding that is between 10 and 20 mm thick. Especially with contrasting wood colours I like the way that looks. I've found that tape will not close all the gaps when the edge banding is more than a few millimetres thick. What is your experience  with that?

Offline Cheese

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Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #42 on: June 23, 2019, 09:43 AM »
Well thanks to Garry's @GarryMartin posting on the shelf life of glue, I found this item which may or may not bring this discussion back full-circle to the beginning.

http://www.titebond.com/App_Static/literature/glues/FF1039_TitebondAcessories.pdf




Offline derekcohen

  • Posts: 333
    • In The Woodshop
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2019, 10:09 AM »
Hi Derek, I regularly use edge banding that is between 10 and 20 mm thick. Especially with contrasting wood colours I like the way that looks. I've found that tape will not close all the gaps when the edge banding is more than a few millimetres thick. What is your experience  with that?

I don't do edge banding deeper than about 10mm.

Does this count? :) These are about 30mm deep ...







Regards from Perth

Derek

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #44 on: June 23, 2019, 10:30 AM »
To me edge “band” means something so thin it would sag if you tried to stand it on end. That thickness is suitable for low pressure clamps like the op used or simply taping.

Once you get over 1/2”x1/2” it’s a stick (to me) and it will need to be clamped with something that can apply real pressure unless it’s shape conforms very closely to the substrate. If it does (or is very short like Derek’s example) you can use low pressure methods.

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1756
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2019, 11:08 AM »
@derekcohen There are two reasons I think a clamp is justified here.  First, the main panel is plywood, essentially end grain.  Second is how it will be used.  As a worktop in a shop, weight will be placed on the edge banding and being 3/4” wide, than can easily separate the banding from the plywood.  Proper clamps (which he has to buy anyway), provide the best chance at a strong bond. Mechanical reinforcement is even better, but at least clamp it well. In light of that, still blue tape?
-Raj

Offline derekcohen

  • Posts: 333
    • In The Woodshop
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #46 on: June 23, 2019, 11:39 AM »
Quote
still blue tape?

I think that many underestimate the power of blue tape, or overestimate clamping pressure. Blue tape was enough to pull these panels together ...







Regards from Perth

Derek

Offline hdv

  • Posts: 70
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #47 on: June 23, 2019, 12:19 PM »
Thanks for showing the examples. Your blue tape is definitely much better than mine (Tesa). If I pull it even with moderate force it will just stretch and only partially rebound. However I can see how it should work with edge banding more subtle than what I do. Maybe I should reconsider and start using thinner strips, like I do when the edge banding is made of the same wood as the panel.

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #48 on: June 23, 2019, 12:45 PM »
You know Derek’s boards are extremely well fitted, very little pressure is needed in that case.

Offline Oldwood

  • Posts: 370
  • Alberta, Canada
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #49 on: June 23, 2019, 12:54 PM »
I wonder if Derek’s tape is the same as the blue painters tape we get here or more like 3m binding tape?
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=70856&cat=1,110,43466

The blue painters tape I have used does not have much stretch to it.
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Confucius

Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 788
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #50 on: June 23, 2019, 03:13 PM »
Edge banding like many aspects of joinery and cabinet making, varies greatly.
There are certain types of banding that will hold fine with tape, depending on the material it’s being bonded too, and the glue used.

I sometimes use scrap lengths of wood, and place them between the edge banding and the clamps. This helps spread the load pressure.
Also seen a few examples where the banding was held with tape, and the banding dried rippled, as in between the tape, the banding didn’t hold, or wrong glue maybe?

Years ago, we did edge banding with Evo Stik, if any wasn’t straight when the glue had set, the fumes of the glue were blamed  [doh]
That stuff was lethal! How some people siniff it to get high is beyond me?

Offline lwoirhaye

  • Posts: 252
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #51 on: June 23, 2019, 09:05 PM »
I've mostly used tape on guitar binding.  I think if the banding is straight enough and the moisture in the glue doesn't cause it to warp, as long as there's an even glue line with some squeeze out with the tape the glue will probably hold.

Tough to predict tho.

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 269
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #52 on: June 25, 2019, 05:34 PM »
If you find setting up specific types of router bits troublesome, here's a tip.

I always have some small blocks of UHMW ready. Once I have found a proper setting for a router bit that requires a very precise setup I always make a setup block of the stuff for later use. That makes repeating the same setup at a later time a breeze. I just grab the setup block I need and place that against the router bit in the table. I then adjust the height 'til the bit fits just right. Sometimes I write an offset for the fence on the blocks as well. But that might not work for you. I have an Incra LS Positioner on my router table with one scale that I never move just for this. This allows for almost perfect repeatability.

I do this for drawer lock bits, lock miter bits, tongue & groove bits, and all other "complex" bits. Sometimes I need to do this for a few different thicknesses, but the small variations in say 18mm ply thickness do not even require this.

I don't have any UHMW but figured I'd make some setup blocks from the material I'm using, 3/4" plywood and edge banding at the moment.  With regards to edge banding bit setup, how do you know when you have it perfect?  For example, I cut the channel out of the plywood below by eyeballing it and using the router lift to adjust until I thought the cutter was perfectly aligned on the corners but I'm not sure how to validate it's perfect?  Afterwards, I did the same with the edge banding.  It seems the edge banding is less critical and only needs to be deep enough to be flush or have overhang?  Is it better to set it so there's no overhang and therefore only one side to flush trim or better to have overhang on both sides and flush trim both sides?

Seems to fit well, do I keep this piece as a setup block?
299743-0

Nearly flush
299745-1

Moderate overhang, not sure if I should center the bit more or try to get one side nearly flush?
299747-2

BTW, I hadn't aligned my Incra fence well for the router table and ended up having to shim it a bit to get the 2 halves parallel and adjusted with minimal gap to keep a consistent movement/alignment of the piece being pushed through.  As far as setting the depth is concerned, I kept moving the fence back with the micro adjuster until the bearing just began to move when I moved the piece across towards the outfeed fence ... is this the typical setup?
« Last Edit: June 25, 2019, 05:39 PM by Bugsysiegals »

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4229
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #53 on: June 25, 2019, 05:41 PM »
For the concave side you can use a square. If the V is centered the thin edges will both contact the square’s blade. If it’s good you can save a scrap but plywood does vary in thickness. Maybe not enough to matter.


Offline hdv

  • Posts: 70
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #54 on: June 25, 2019, 05:47 PM »
When edge banding I prefer to have it sticking out a little bit on both sides.

For the lock miter and the drawer lock bit I try to stay as close to "perfect" as possible. Due to the variations in thickness of the wood it never is really perfect. But most of the time the following procedure is good enough for me. I adjust the height of the bit 'til it fits the profile of the setup block as good as possible. Then I do the same for the distance of the fence for bits that don't have a bearing. Then I use a piece of scrap to test. Often a single adjustment after that gets me close enough.

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 269
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #55 on: June 26, 2019, 04:18 PM »
When edge banding I prefer to have it sticking out a little bit on both sides.

For the lock miter and the drawer lock bit I try to stay as close to "perfect" as possible. Due to the variations in thickness of the wood it never is really perfect. But most of the time the following procedure is good enough for me. I adjust the height of the bit 'til it fits the profile of the setup block as good as possible. Then I do the same for the distance of the fence for bits that don't have a bearing. Then I use a piece of scrap to test. Often a single adjustment after that gets me close enough.

Thanks, unless you're a wood worker or perfectionist, most people will never be close enough to glue joints to notice slight imperfections.  I'll use this method and get it as close as possible without being overly scientific about it.

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 269
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #56 on: June 26, 2019, 04:20 PM »
Well thanks to Garry's @GarryMartin posting on the shelf life of glue, I found this item which may or may not bring this discussion back full-circle to the beginning.

http://www.titebond.com/App_Static/literature/glues/FF1039_TitebondAcessories.pdf


Wow, it's hard to believe one could achieve that much PSI with this tape!

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 269
Re: Edge Band Clamping
« Reply #57 on: June 26, 2019, 04:22 PM »
For the concave side you can use a square. If the V is centered the thin edges will both contact the square’s blade. If it’s good you can save a scrap but plywood does vary in thickness. Maybe not enough to matter.

I'd done this but wasn't certain it was the right method or not, thanks for clarifying.