Author Topic: I need an advice  (Read 5528 times)

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Offline arso_bg

  • Posts: 127
I need an advice
« on: June 14, 2019, 05:53 PM »
Hi everybody,
My kitchen is 25 years old and is falling apart. We need a new one!
So, I am preparing a project and for the time being I have two different layouts. The first one has more and bigger cabinets and all of them are easily accessible, but it looks more conventional.
The second one has less and smaller cabinets. Not all of them are easily accessible but it looks more modern. It will be also more expensive because of the bigger worktop and the corner base cabinets.
Can I have some considerations, recommendation etc.
which one do you think is better ….

Thanks in advance …

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Online Cheese

  • Posts: 6475
Re: I need an advice
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2019, 11:33 PM »
I prefer modern/contemporary design and I'd definitely go for the first proposal. It's more spacious, has more storage, the cabinets are more easily accessed and if you're a cook it will feel less constraining and be more enjoyable to use.

With the second design I think you're painting yourself into a corner. No room to move, cabinetry that is difficult to access and it also having less storage space are just some of the issues. Modern design doesn't necessarily entail just pendant lighting and an island.

Are those walls that support the cabinets in the first design, outside walls or are they inside walls that could be opened up to an adjoining space?  If they are outside walls you could incorporate glass block or narrow windows to bring some additional light into the kitchen and lighten it up and make the area seem larger.

Here's an example of a narrow galley kitchen in a 1950's built house. The 30" door on the LH side opened into a 2 season (and that's stretching it) porch as did the 30" wide window on the RH side. Dark cabinetry, dark trim and dark floors combined with a 48" wide path between the 2 sides of the kitchen gave a very closed in feeling.



Well simply removing the 30" door and making that opening 72" wide and then removing the 30" window and the wall to provide an additional 84" opening along with shorter white cabinets with glass doors on both sides brought in a ton of additional light and really opened up the space.  The foot print has not changed by 1" but the feeling is completely different.



This is the view of the kitchen on the other side. The path is still 48" wide but the standard sized 36" depth refrigerator has been replaced with a counter depth refrigerator to give an additional 9"-10" of room so that it doesn't jut out into the work triangle.



On the RH side of this photo you'll see the first 3 steps are exposed. Again, the kitchen wall originally went right down to the bottom step so that a door could be closed to seal off the upstairs area from the downstairs area. Shortening that wall only 18" made a huge impact on the perceived space in the kitchen. The track lighting will be replaced with recessed cans to modernize the look and make the ceiling feel higher.



I think picking the proper colors, materials and finishes makes a larger impact on a space and more clearly dictates a "modern" esthetic than a couple of design cues.

Offline arso_bg

  • Posts: 127
Re: I need an advice
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2019, 02:11 AM »
No walls can be moved.  With all the walls in place it should look like layout 1.3 and layout 2.3

The idea behind the second design was that you “as a cook” go to the center of the kitchen and do not move out of this place anymore…. The second idea behind this design is that your work area – the big worktop is facing the window ….but with all this smaller and difficult to access cabinets ..I think it was not very successful …

Thank you for your attention ….
« Last Edit: June 15, 2019, 02:28 AM by arso_bg »

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: I need an advice
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2019, 03:27 AM »
For us, the more storage the better, and we’re often cooking together so the more open and easy access the better. Other people may have different priorities.
+1

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 1299
Re: I need an advice
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2019, 05:24 AM »
Not a kitchen fitter or architect but these are my opinions since you asked.

In Layout 1 you have the oven and microwave stuffed in the corner behind the fridge. I can't see any cook liking that design.

In Layout 1 I would swap the fridge and the cooktop, leaving space for the fridge on the left end of the worktop.

I would eliminate the chair and have a mobile island in its place for some additional work space in Layout 1

Layout 2 is too cramped. It is a one person work space, which sound OK in theory but in real life will be  a PITA. Push the worktop out away from the sink at least 2 feet. #2 has a better work space/flow than #1 if you do this. As it is its almost a galley kitchen, everything is in line and its a long way from the fridge to the cooktop.

In Layout 2 you have created a fixed width space for a fridge which does not allow units which may be wider, thereby limiting appliance choices in the future with out significant renovations. That is OK but I'm just thinking of the future and resale value.

Kitchen work space needs a 'work triangle' with each side about 6 feet or less. More than that and it may look nice but will be awkward to use as it creates too many steps between the three primary work stations (fridge, stove or oven/cooktop, and sink).

In Layout 2 is that a dishwasher under the oven?

You might find some helpful tips here:

https://www.hgtv.com/remodel/kitchen-remodel/
« Last Edit: June 15, 2019, 05:43 AM by Bob D. »
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It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline BMH

  • Posts: 373
Re: I need an advice
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2019, 09:49 AM »
To give a viable recommendation we need more information. Basic space drawing with dimensions. Is it a house or apartment. Non movable walls, windows placement, plumbing position, are they fix or can be moved. Type of cooktop and can the wiring be move around. Ceiling height, floor type. Then what type of cook are you, how many people do you cook for day in day out. Do you have easy access to stores or need major pantry.


 All of these details will permit people to give you a viable and cost effective options.

Offline arso_bg

  • Posts: 127
Re: I need an advice
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2019, 11:39 AM »
To give a viable recommendation we need more information. Basic space drawing with dimensions. Is it a house or apartment. Non movable walls, windows placement, plumbing position, are they fix or can be moved. Type of cooktop and can the wiring be move around. Ceiling height, floor type. Then what type of cook are you, how many people do you cook for day in day out. Do you have easy access to stores or need major pantry.


 All of these details will permit people to give you a viable and cost effective options.

I upload a picture with the measurements

It’s a house – a basement floor, no walls can be moved, there is only one window that you can see on the picture, plumbing - in the left corner on the wall against the window, position is fixed, but since it will be a major renovation I could move it a bit to the left or right. Floor = tiles; I will not mess with the floor this time. The cooktop is induction - 7.4 kw.; dimensions – 750 mm. x 500 mm. All the old wires will be removed, and a new wiring will be set in place for the new kitchen according to the project.
 We are a household of three adults, we are cooking every day, we have an easy access to stores.
There was a remark about the fridge – the one that we are going to use is rather big – the dimensions   are depth = 800 mm, width = 860 mm, height = 1860
There was a remark that the microwave and oven were left in a bad position in the corner behind the fridge. The oven and microwave are only rarely used in our household; 95% of the time we are using the cooktop.

Thank you for your attention

Offline derekcohen

  • Posts: 333
    • In The Woodshop
Re: I need an advice
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2019, 08:46 PM »
While the more traditional layout may not inspire you with its looks, it is more functional as a kitchen. Functional is important and the foundation of design here.

What you can do next is think about surface treatments, choice of finish/wood, design of cabinet doors, lighting, etc. In the kitchen renovation I did 4 years ago, I removed a couple of the overhead cabinets, changed all the doors and drawer fronts (from Tasmanian Oak to Hard Maple), their design (from raised panel to Shaker), replaced the tiles with glass, and the benchtop with granite. My wife and I love it. Importantly, she loves it.

Details are here: http://inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/KitchenComplete.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

Offline arso_bg

  • Posts: 127
Re: I need an advice
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2019, 03:11 AM »
Very nicely done Derek! I hope I will manage not worse with my renovation!

I am planning to use black granite as a worktop too!

Concerning materials and colors: I am planning to use melamine chipboard as a material what is usual in Europe. The colors are Egger “Alabaster White” for the cabinets/ back and Egger “coco bolo” for the drawer fronts and doors. At least this is the choice for the time being. The cabinets should look something like the picture attached - colors.jpg

Thank you for your attention

Online Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 788
Re: I need an advice
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2019, 07:29 AM »
I prefer layout 1, and I’m a fan of the contemporary look, it’s been around a long time in England and I guess many parts of Europe.
We have built many “family rooms” which are basically large extensions to kitchens and adjoining rooms, usually with roof lanterns or roof light glazing, and bi folding or sliding doors.
The rooms are a focal point in the house, where families gather to cook, talk, lounge and watch TV etc. So they are known as family rooms, and they are very fashionable and popular, and add value to a house, and help to sell it.

I have seen and built many variations on this theme, and all of the best looking ones, have been where light is generated and reflected well.
Also as Cheese says, colours are very important. Dark colours look great providing there is good light.

I have learned a few do’s and don’ts along the way.
My own kitchen is a contemporary black gloss with stainless steel and walnut work tops.

Big mistake, I would never choose black gloss again, it’s like owning a black vehicle. When clean, nothing looks better but, it shows every mark, if somebody opens a cupboard or draw, there are knuckle prints on the black gloss instantly. White gloss would have been better or satin black. Black gloss, or any dark colour gloss, no thanks.
Work tops, ours are walnut, every few months, they have to be cleaned up, dry, then re oiled. Wooden worktops, never again.
Granite ie popular but, personally I’d choose quartz, it’s very durable and doesn’t stain like granite can.
Corian is fashionable, but stains easily, if it stains, the stain is chopped or ground out, filled and sanded to give an invisible repair.
Quartz seems the best option for sure.

Tiled splash backs, never again, bespoke fit glass in various colours is a much better and hygienic option.

Sinks, seen a few stone resin sinks split right in half after jugs etc have hit them when falling from a cupboard.

Some of the best kitchens we’ve installed have come mainly from Germany, a few from Sweden and a few from France.

The best kitchen I’ve ever seen was in a well known celebrity’s home, the cupboards and doors etc, were all hand built and painted by his brother who is a cabinet maker. They were unbelievably beautiful, and coupled with all the other components, created a dream, or in my opinion the ultimate kitchen.

Good luck with your kitchen, just apply a bit of extra thought in all areas, as you have to use and look at it every day  [thumbs up]


 

Offline BMH

  • Posts: 373
Re: I need an advice
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2019, 10:11 AM »
You plans 2 is the better option if you want to create a permanent a place to eat. I would lose the oven and microwave and replace them with a combo induction/microwave oven. They are the equivalent of a large size microwave and you can have them off the counter and increase your sink size.  All the lower cabinets should be drawers as they augment your storage by 35%. Also consider the space on your right when you come in to make a shallow open pantry. Stay away from dark colors and to many upper cabinets as they make the space look smaller.

The other possible options is to use the whole room for the kitchen and include a rolling table or fold down table as a dining place.



Online Cheese

  • Posts: 6475
Re: I need an advice
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2019, 10:28 AM »
Wow...I'm full-in with Jiggy on this one.  [big grin]

1. We have satin black & satin white cabinets, fingerprints are minimized.
2. Granite, marble & Corian stain and show water marks from glasses and bottles. Even a bottle of cold mayo from the fridge will leave a watermark if you don't immediately wipe the stone. Wood and soapstone both require a lot of maintenance. I'm going to finish off the LH side of the kitchen with a quartz countertop.
3. The RH side of our kitchen has a white oak countertop (between the stove & the fridge) but it has been coated with 2 mm of West epoxy. It provides the warmth of wood without all the maintenance.
4. If you do tile a backsplash, use urethane grout. It's a lot more expensive and it's more difficult to install but well worth the additional price and effort. It cleans up with soap & water and will not stain. Tomato sauce splashes are wiped off with a damp sponge days or even weeks after. It also doesn't need to be sealed, other grouts do and 2 seal coats are recommended.
5. I prefer a stainless sink, when things are dropped accidentally, the sink survives and the dropped item survives.
6. If you're going to install a pot filler, don't install it in the middle of the stove backsplash where it will be subjected to steam and grease, place it off to one side of the stove instead. It's a lot easier to clean and the seals/o-rings will last longer.
7. Wood strip (3/4" thick) floors are nice.  They're easy on your feet & back and easy on any dropped items.
8. Dimmable recessed LED lighting is the best way to go. Place the light cans slightly off to each side of the work area. Thus when you're bent over chopping or cutting, your body and head will not be blocking the light source.

I'll be interested to see your final design and more importantly the final install.  [smile]
« Last Edit: June 16, 2019, 10:34 AM by Cheese »

Online Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 788
Re: I need an advice
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2019, 05:07 PM »
@Cheese Your kitchen looks great! A nice example of colours and textures, and lighting that works superbly  [thumbs up]

I might steal your idea with the epoxy coating on the wooden work tops. The oiling is very tedious for me. Admittedly it brings the lovely grain of the walnut back to life, walnut is a favourite of mine. If I can get it back to a nice look then epoxy, I think that would work well for me.

The urethane grout has my attention too, so maybe I can do a makeover before we sell up.

Thanks  ;)

Offline arso_bg

  • Posts: 127
Re: I need an advice
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2019, 04:13 AM »
Thank you all for your valuable input!

We decided to go on with Layout 1. It is more functional as a kitchen and there will be more space …
We might change the leftmost base cabinet to be with 4 drawers instead with a drawer and a door.

I will share more info and pictures when the project is ready…

Thank you all for your attention

Best regards from Bulgaria
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 04:33 PM by arso_bg »

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 6475
Re: I need an advice
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2019, 02:37 PM »
@Cheese Your kitchen looks great! A nice example of colours and textures, and lighting that works superbly  [thumbs up]

I might steal your idea with the epoxy coating on the wooden work tops. The oiling is very tedious for me. Admittedly it brings the lovely grain of the walnut back to life, walnut is a favourite of mine. If I can get it back to a nice look then epoxy, I think that would work well for me.

The urethane grout has my attention too, so maybe I can do a makeover before we sell up.


Thanks Jiggy... [big grin]

Here's a shot of the white oak top just to give you an idea as to how well the West epoxy brings out the details.




Here's a closeup and the definition is pretty spectacular even with 2 mm of epoxy. Water protection at its best.  [smile]




Here's a photo of how dark the oak turns if you put the epoxy directly on the oak. I wanted to keep everything light so my solution was to coat everything with 3 coats of General Finishes water based HPP polyurethane. I then poured the epoxy over that.


« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 02:56 PM by Cheese »

Online Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 788
Re: I need an advice
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2019, 04:06 PM »
That really is stunning, it’s like oak marble. Absolutely beautiful!

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: I need an advice
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2019, 05:47 PM »
@Cheese that’s a nice counter.  [not worthy] Sorry if I missed it but how long has it been in? What epoxy did you use?
+1

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: I need an advice
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2019, 05:49 PM »
Thank you all for your valuable input!

We decided to go on with Layout 1. It is more functional as a kitchen and there will be more space …
We might change the leftmost base cabinet to be with 4 drawers instead with a drawer and a door.

I will share more info and pictures when the project is ready…

Thank you all for your attention

Best regards from Bulgaria

That will be functional. I’ve got to ask though, do you really put an armchair in the kitchen like that?
+1

Offline arso_bg

  • Posts: 127
Re: I need an advice
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2019, 10:23 PM »
Thank you all for your valuable input!

We decided to go on with Layout 1. It is more functional as a kitchen and there will be more space …
We might change the leftmost base cabinet to be with 4 drawers instead with a drawer and a door.

I will share more info and pictures when the project is ready…

Thank you all for your attention

Best regards from Bulgaria

That will be functional. I’ve got to ask though, do you really put an armchair in the kitchen like that?


we have one now ...even bigger – for two persons ... i like to sit there while my wife is cooking ... sometimes she is sitting there, and I am cooking ...  and besides... the kitchen is directly linked with our sitting/dining room ...there are more armchairs like this ....so if you look at the kitchen from the sitting room.. it’s like an extension ....

at the end this is the last thing to decide … I had an idea to put there a small Island on casters … but I think we will decide this later when the big renovation is ready …we may add an armchair or an island … or just a small table ….we will see ….
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 10:34 PM by arso_bg »

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: I need an advice
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2019, 10:37 PM »
we have one now ...even bigger – for two persons ... i like to sit there while my wife is cooking ... sometimes she is sitting there, and I am cooking ...  and besides... the kitchen is directly linked with our sitting/dining room ...there are more chairs like this ....so if you look at the kitchen from the sitting room.. it’s like an extension ....

at the end this is the last thing to decide … I had an idea to put there a small Island on casters … but I think we will decide this later when the big renovation is ready …we may add an armchair or an island … or just a small table ….we will see ….

Thanks for the explanation.
+1

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 583
Re: I need an advice
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2019, 10:55 PM »
Cheese,  nice pasta pot, I have the same.   Question on your pot filler, you have it off to the side instead of behind the cooktop.  Any reason for that?  I'm planning one but have always planned it to come from the wall behind the cooktop.   Secondly, do you use it?  Would you do it again or is this something you wouldn't bother with if doing it again?

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 6475
Re: I need an advice
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2019, 01:26 AM »
Cheese,  nice pasta pot, I have the same.   Question on your pot filler, you have it off to the side instead of behind the cooktop.  Any reason for that?  I'm planning one but have always planned it to come from the wall behind the cooktop.   Secondly, do you use it?  Would you do it again or is this something you wouldn't bother with if doing it again?

Say What...???????

No seriously, the pasta Pentola is very nice, we use it every day not just for pasta but for everything from pasta to sauces to court bouillon shrimp...nummy.

If you put the pot filler off to the side, it's out of the way of the grease and heat/steam that emanates from the range. It makes clean up easier and it will lengthen the life of the seals/o-rings. Pinterest should be spanked daily for their slavishly reproduced photos. If I ran that organization, heads would roll...it's a feel-good community and that's where it ends. Shame on them, no common sense.

The pot filler is also connected to a whole house water filter so the water we use to cook, the water we drink, the water the cats use and the water the dogs use is all filtered. The filter is changed every 6 months. It's also connected to the ice cube maker in the fridge which means I can bypass the internal water filter in the fridge which needs to be changed every 6 months. So a $23 whole house carbon filter replaces a $50 in-refrigerator filter. What's not to like?
 

« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 10:03 AM by Cheese »

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 6475
Re: I need an advice
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2019, 01:48 AM »
@Cheese that’s a nice counter.  [not worthy] Sorry if I missed it but how long has it been in? What epoxy did you use?

Thanks Paul...It's been over a year, here are the details in a previous post. West 105 epoxy with the West 207 hardener. They consider it to be they're most transparent combination.

http://festoolownersgroup.com/home-improvement-other-projects/before-after-from-butcher-block-to-a-white-oak-slab/msg546047/#msg546047

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 583
Re: I need an advice
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2019, 10:18 AM »


If you put the pot filler off to the side, it's out of the way of the grease and heat/steam that emanates from the range. It makes clean up easier and it will lengthen the life of the seals/o-rings. Pinterest should be spanked daily for their slavishly reproduced photos. If I ran that organization, heads would roll...it's a feel-good community and that's where it ends. Shame on them, no common sense.

The pot filler is also connected to a whole house water filter so the water we use to cook, the water we drink, the water the cats use and the water the dogs use is all filtered. The filter is changed every 6 months. It's also connected to the ice cube maker in the fridge which means I can bypass the internal water filter in the fridge which needs to be changed every 6 months. So a $23 whole house carbon filter replaces a $50 in-refrigerator filter. What's not to like?

You lost me on the Pintrest stuff, I hate the existence of that site very much (makes it impossible to search for stuff because you just keep ending up on useless Pintrest images).

I agree on the filter bit, that is my plan too.  You bring up a good point on using it for other things.  I hadn't considered that.  I've been hoping someone would start making a 3 way facet (hot/cold/filtered),  so far I've only seen one, and it was ugly.  Doing this could work, not sure I like not having the sink under it though.  Something to think about for sure.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 6475
Re: I need an advice
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2019, 10:47 AM »
I agree on the filter bit, that is my plan too.  You bring up a good point on using it for other things.  I hadn't considered that.  I've been hoping someone would start making a 3 way facet (hot/cold/filtered),  so far I've only seen one, and it was ugly.  Doing this could work, not sure I like not having the sink under it though.  Something to think about for sure.

Ya, I was a little hesitant about how the faucet in "mid air" would work, but we're real happy with it. We've been using it for the last 4-5 years with absolutely no issues. Something that helps is that when you turn off the water, the faucet shuts off positively and not even one extra drop of water escapes. That makes a huge difference and eliminates the need to be over a sink. 

Offline arso_bg

  • Posts: 127
Re: I need an advice
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2019, 09:00 PM »
After a few months of hard work my new kitchen is now 90% ready …
Here are some pics…

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 5845
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: I need an advice
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2019, 09:45 PM »
Very nice work. Very clean and modern. What wood species did you use for the doors on the lower cabinets. I really like the look

Offline arso_bg

  • Posts: 127
Re: I need an advice
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2019, 10:27 PM »
Very nice work. Very clean and modern. What wood species did you use for the doors on the lower cabinets. I really like the look

Egger coco bolo

Offline xedos

  • Posts: 79
Re: I need an advice
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2019, 09:10 AM »
Nice job.

What happened to the oven and its cabinet ?

Offline arso_bg

  • Posts: 127
Re: I need an advice
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2019, 05:13 PM »
The tall cabinet with the oven is not yet ready … I hope I will manage to finish it In the next few weeks … :)