Author Topic: Installing LED strips and other LED issues  (Read 7554 times)

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Offline Bernmc

  • Posts: 43
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2019, 05:50 PM »
Hey @Bernmc would you be able to run multiple reed switches to the relay?

Is there a practical limit on the number?

Yes, you could just parallel them, as long as you want the situation where any switch powers the same LEDs (eg any drawer switches on all the lights, as in Raj’s requirement). They’re only activating the relay, so you could have as many as you want - it’s the other side of the relay doing the heavy lifting.


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Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6454
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2019, 01:05 AM »
1. So if I wanted to eliminate the battery and only have it powered from AC, does the relay need to be spec'd for that (because it would see 120VAC)? 
2. Same for the reed switch? 
3. And any guesses if any wood can be present between the magnet and switch? 
4. The idea would be to conceal all the switch elements so it's not obvious how the light is activated, other than the movement of the door (that's why I didn't look at the microswitches, I think it would be impossible to conceal them).

4. So Raj, let's start with the easiest answer first, if i'm understanding you correctly, you want this project to perform virtual MAGIC for your wife to justify why you spend so much time on the FOG.  [poke]   Ya ...I get that.  [smile]

1. I have limited experience with solid state relays but I believe you need to match the incoming voltage. They are pretty cool and certainly blow away the traditional variety. They're so small and so quiet. @Bernmc may want to chime in here.  [smile]

2. Reed switches are usually rated by current capacity, but because in your application the reed switch is only being used as a signal carrying switch and not as a current carrying switch, current capacity really doesn't matter.

3. There can be some wood between the magnet and the reed switch. It all depends upon the strength of the magnet and the distance of it from the reed switch. Trial & error are the words to live by here. Just play around with it and you'll get the feel. Also understand that the lineal position of the magnet relative to the reed switch can make a difference because the position of it determines the size and the force of the magnetic field. That's the reason I fabbed up that "mini drawer" to experiment with the positional issues between the magnet and the reed switch.

We'll be interested in your results.

This is the unit I use for adjusting brightness. It's really tiny.



https://www.luxeonstar.com/500ma-externally-dimmable-buckpuck-dc-driver-leads

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1751
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2019, 06:43 AM »
Thank you @Cheese and @Bernmc , I fear I’ve stepped into another rabbit hole.  Just another day at the office I guess.   [smile] And Cheese, “magic” is dead on!  Since nothing is built yet, I have complete control (1% influence) over the design parameters of this little project.  Once I identify the bits I need, I can modify (ask for permission) the cabinet to accommodate the magic beans. 

And sorry, I think these unique requirements went outside the scope of your multi part series.  I can create another thread if you want to keep this one simple?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 06:45 AM by RKA »
-Raj

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6454
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2019, 10:21 AM »
Raj if you're looking for plug & play, you may want to consider some various Diode LED products. An assembled product would include everything you need except for the driver and switching mechanism. They have a new product called Spotmod Slik LED Panels.



They also offer fully assembled light bars.
https://www.diodeled.com/cascade-led-light-bar.html
https://www.diodeled.com/tru-link.html

Puck lights.
https://www.diodeled.com/triant-led-puck-light.html

Or just generally assembled product.
https://www.diodeled.com/products/fixtures.html

Sensors & dimmers.
https://www.diodeled.com/products/led-control.html

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6454
5. Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2019, 11:48 PM »
I've had led strips explode and catch fire in the past which worried me, they were covered in a kind of clear plastic sheath which i guess insulated them.

So @Russty , this response goes back to your previous experiences. I assume the LEDs you're talking about were waterproof LEDs. If so they probably had a profile that looked similar to this.



Well the supplier of these LEDs suggested I just remove the liner of the VHB double stick tape and adhere this to any substrate I wanted to. So I did. I routed out some channels in stretchers that were part of a cabinet assembly and adhered the LEDs to the wooden stretchers after sealing the channels with 2 coats of sanding sealer.

I then decided to "burn in" the LEDs for a couple of days just to make sure everything was copacetic. So after 2 days of continual activation they looked like this.



Day 3 looked like this.



Day 4 looked like this.



And day 5 is when I decided to intercede.



Upon closer inspection you can see burn marks on the LED covering. Even more surprising is that some are burned, some are really burned and some are not burned at all. That's the way it's always been with semiconductors, "catch as catch can."  They're all individual entities and they all age differently and in this particular incident, produce different levels of light and different levels of heat.

You'll also notice that they've been adhered to a wooden substrate. That's a big part of the problem. Wood is an insulator and it absorbs a minimum amount of heat and radiates none. The silicone waterproof barrier over the LED puts the final death knell on this product.

This LED can't rid its heat from the top and it can't rid its heat from the bottom. It just sits there and cooks. Possibly, if it's in a water bath it may survive, however that's not how these are commonly used. They're typically used outside when moisture is a problem.

I do think however, if these were placed on an aluminum heatsink, these issues would be mitigated to some degree. Keep them cool is a mantra.




« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 09:56 AM by Cheese »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6454
6. Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2019, 11:02 AM »
Here's a good article on drivers & power supplies. They also talk about Constant Voltage CV versus Constant Current CC. The subject of dimmers is also talked about.

https://www.ledsupply.com/blog/understanding-led-drivers/

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6454
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2019, 12:07 PM »
Can you put one of those 40 watt Meanwell drivers in a wall box? If so, would you switch the power to the driver or the output to the led’s?

Hey @Michael Kellough I just received a 20 watt Meanwell for an edge lit bathroom shelf project. Here's how it compares to the 60 watt and a single electrical box.


Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4219
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2019, 01:11 PM »
Thanks! Excellent provision of information, as usual.

Offline Russty

  • Posts: 18
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2019, 04:31 AM »
that is definitely consistent with what happened to mine, they were clipped across joists so were technically in free air so lasted a bit longer, i cant remember how long exactly but i reckon about 4 or 5 months before they started to dim and then a few more months before they started to pop and catch fire.

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 1340
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2019, 10:52 AM »
... 4 or 5 months before they started to dim and then a few more months before they started to pop and catch fire.
They what?


Offline usernumber1

  • Posts: 52
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2019, 12:14 PM »
not sure where you're getting your led from; after messing around with numerous local suppliers and chinese deals, all my installs are going to be from armacost only. their LEDs are up to spec and i have not see any burnouts.

i think leevalley also uses them as a supplier. they are definitely premium priced but sometimes there's a sale from their site

i should add the installs have some spec requirements, so for example you may need aluminum housing for cooling purposes, etc. depending on power, length of run, etc. there's other things : they provide technical docs

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6454
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2019, 02:30 PM »
Glossed over thread saw about heatsinks etc. Found this https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/aluminum-channels/klus-b1888-micro-alu-series-surface-mount-aluminum-led-profile-housing/1020/4785/?utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=base&utm_content=B1888&utm_campaign=GoogleBaseChild&gclid=Cj0KCQjwnpXmBRDUARIsAEo71tS1sKb4alua32CQ-Wv8ztLrZLdUJhIbkOWGyRphRIWfUjGuLxbxX0gaAssyEALw_wcB

The extrusion you noted is manufactured by Klus. Nothing wrong with their products, it's good German stuff. They produce a variety of various aluminum extrusions and I'm using one of theirs for a an edge lit glass shelf in a bath.

I tend to use all DIODE LED products when I can because of their track record. I've used them for the last 6-7 years and haven't had any issues.  It's currently used mostly by commercial fabricators in the kitchen, bath and lighting arenas.

https://www.diodeled.com

Interestingly enough as a comparison, the Klus 39" long extrusion you pointed out costs $33.90 with a frosted cover.
The DIODE LED 48" long extrusion costs $23.50 with a frosted cover. If I had a commercial account, I could probably get a 10%-15% discount.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6454
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2019, 12:12 PM »
So, it's been a while since we've seen this post.

I purchased some in-concrete friendly LED lights that were IP 67 rated at the time. And that time was 13 years ago...

They are manufactured totally from 316 SST, and feature 3/16" thick tempered glass lenses set in silicone. All the internal seals are Viton o'rings.  They truly are the cats-pajamas...material wise. They were given the name Polaris because of their water affinity and were only manufactured for about 3 years.

Unfortunately, the then current LED lighting technology wasn't commensurate with the materials science technology. So the LED lights they used at the time were just a multitude of 5 mm LEDS in a small circle to produce a fairly bright lite. It worked well for a awhile, but like I've said before, heat is the enemy of semiconductors and without a robust heatsink, it was inevitable that they would have a shortened life span. her affinity city.

Unfortunately the life span was even shorter than I thought it would be, just 2 years. These are used for lighting stone treads and are on a dusk-to-dawn sensor. They're on a yearly average of 12 hours per day which comes to 4400 hours per year. So to only get 9000 hours of use from an LED that's rated at 50,000 to 60,000 hours was disappointing.






Here's the housing.






Here is the original LED array that came installed in the housing.


« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 10:48 AM by Cheese »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6454
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2019, 11:49 PM »
The original LED array that comes in the stainless housing dies in a helter-skelter fashion. Sometimes it's death starts as a single LED and sometimes it's several LED's that fail all at once, and that pattern slowly continues until all the LED's are finally dead.



I originally purchased 6 of the Polaris lights and over the past several years after swapping in and out all 6 of the housings, all of the Led arrays are toast to a greater or lesser degree. To continue to use the housings long into the future, I decided to fabricate replacement LED units using the newer technology of a single high efficiency LED mounted onto a single pad.

I chose Luxeon Star LED's because of the many options they offer including, spectral color, white color temperature, luminosity, LED driver amperages and their long term reliability. Typical LED life with a proper heat sink is in the 50,000 - 60,000 hours range. If you subscribe to a dawn-to-dusk lighting program, that means almost 12-13 years of usage before a replacement needs to be considered.

https://www.luxeonstar.com

So the first thing I determined is that the premature failure of the individual LED's was because of a lack of effective heat-sinking.
Thus, I started with designing an aluminum plug inserted into the stainless housing that would securely hold the LED while also being a line-to-line fit with the stainless housing. That way, as aluminum is a great conductor of heat, any extraneous heat generated would also be sloughed off to the stainless enclosure, even though stainless is horrible at heat dissipation. Using the stainless housing as an additional heat sink/transfer mechanism was important as the housings reside within concrete steps which can then dissipate heat because of their thermal mass.
So the concrete stays cool, which means the stainless housing stays cool, which also means the aluminum plug and the attached LED stays cool.



« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 12:02 AM by Cheese »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6454
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #45 on: July 14, 2019, 11:23 AM »
The aluminum plug/heat sink is fabricated from 6061-T6511 aluminum round. Close attention is paid to the diameters as I wanted it to fit snug inside the stainless housing.
The round recessed area in the top of the plug is where the LED and its pad will be mounted.  Likewise it was very important that the bottom of the recess is smooth & flat as it's the only mechanism for the LED/pad interface to carry away the generated heat.




The slot milled into each side of the plug is for running the 12V DC wires to the LED/pad assembly.




This top view shows the recessed area with 2 each 4-40 tapped holes to retain the LED. A light coating of thermal conductive paste is applied to the recessed area and the LED is then fastened down carefully so as not to warp or distort the assembly.




This is what a complete LED/pad assembly looks like. A single LED that puts out more lumens than the previous 18 each 5 mm LED's. The 18 previous LED's generated 120 lm, this single LED is rated at 186 lm @ 700mA current.

And here's a drawing of how the LED/pad assembly is created.






Two different color temperature LED's. The 3500K version is for the front steps where it matches the rest of the front garden lighting. While the 5000K version is for the rear steps to match the garden lighting used there.






The LED assembly is mounted in place but still needs to be fastened down with screws. You can see the black & red lead wires have been soldered to the LED and have been placed in their channels.

This is also a great shot comparing old LED technology to current LED technology. The single LED on the right puts out 45% more light than the 18 LED array on the left and it also has a 30% longer life span.




Here's a shot of the LED's in the front steps at night before the 2nd bluestone tread was attached. They put out just enough light to clearly outline each tread while not annoying the neighbors.  [eek]




« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 11:08 AM by Cheese »

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3885
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #46 on: July 14, 2019, 12:09 PM »
Sweet.  And how satisfying to be able to do your own metal milling.
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Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6454
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #47 on: July 15, 2019, 01:26 PM »
Here's a better shot of the rear steps.

The first photo is before the lights come on.

The 2nd is at dusk when the photo cell sensor kicks in. It adds just enough light to highlight what could become a tripping hazard.

The 3rd is around 11:00 PM when the potential tripping hazard turns into a reality. You can see that there's a good amount of light being thrown on the treads. Also note the similar color temperatures between the garden lights and the step lights. If this lighting wasn't matched, it'd be immediately noticed.  [eek]







Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4219
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #48 on: July 15, 2019, 01:59 PM »
Thanks for posting, this is very educational.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6454
Interesting, new 500 watt LED's for outdoor activities
« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2019, 11:54 AM »
Just happened upon these today. They seem like they'd be perfect for a tennis court or basketball court at night. A 500 watt current draw with a 65,000 lumen output.

https://www.ledlightexpert.com/500-Watt-LED-StadiumPro-LED-Stadium-Lights--65000-Lumen-LED-Ballpark-Lights--5000K-Bright-White--10KV-surge-_p_1380.html


Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4219
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2019, 12:30 PM »
Installed at only 8 feet high, I’m enjoying these 10k lumen shop 4 foot strip shop lights from Rockler.

Also love how lightweight they are. You could use double stick tape or Velcro to hold them in place.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6454
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #51 on: July 18, 2019, 11:54 AM »
Installed at only 8 feet high, I’m enjoying these 10k lumen shop 4 foot strip shop lights from Rockler.

Also love how lightweight they are. You could use double stick tape or Velcro to hold them in place.

Thanks for that @Michael Kellough  I'm curious if you used fluorescent lighting before in that area, and if so are the LED's brighter? How is the light spread compared to fluorescents?  The color temp seems pretty good.

Is it a single or double tube?  Second thought...maybe it isn't even a tube at all?   [eek]  If that's the case, they'd get thrown in the trash when they die.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4219
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #52 on: July 18, 2019, 03:36 PM »
Yes these replaced fluorescent lights and they’re a big improvement in brightness and cri.

Two rows of closely spaced leds. I seem to recall doing a rough calculation based on a couple of inches and there are about 400 individual leds.

Here is a tight shot of the room, spruced up to host my wife’s new etching press.
The light fixture is installed right above the gearbox parallel to the bed. It makes a pretty clear shadow of the stand but it also cast plenty of light laterally.

« Last Edit: July 18, 2019, 03:38 PM by Michael Kellough »

Offline rvieceli

  • Posts: 1044
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #53 on: July 18, 2019, 03:52 PM »
Michael very nice press. Did you fab the stand? How does she like the crank? I’ve never seen one without the big wheel.
Thanks

Ron

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4219
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #54 on: July 18, 2019, 04:36 PM »
@rvieceli thanks! Made the stand from 3” 8020 stock and 1/2” MDO as shear panels to be able to leave out some aluminum stock and maximize storage.

The Dodge 5-1 reducer works fine (rated for something like 1500 rpm [scared]). It does stick out a lot more than I expected. By modifying the mount and choking up on the space between parts I could move the handle in about 1-1/2” but it would take some work.

Hard to see in the pic but I had to add extra stock to the bottoms of three of the legs because the floor is so out of level. The leg on the right corner is the designed length while the leg diagonally opposite needed an extra1-3/8”. They must have run short of concrete when pouring the floor. Getting it to reach the door (behind the camera) took priority.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2019, 07:25 PM by Michael Kellough »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6454
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #55 on: July 18, 2019, 05:00 PM »
Here is a tight shot of the room, spruced up to host my wife’s new etching press.
The light fixture is installed right above the gearbox parallel to the bed. It makes a pretty clear shadow of the stand but it also cast plenty of light laterally.

I don’t know what it is or what it does...but it’s a real neat piece of equipment.  [cool] [cool] [cool]

« Last Edit: July 19, 2019, 02:03 AM by Cheese »

Offline BarneyD

  • Posts: 86
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #56 on: July 18, 2019, 06:12 PM »
I'm with @Cheese.  My first thought was of the old mimeograph machines (which smelled so nice).
Barney

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4219
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #57 on: July 18, 2019, 07:29 PM »
Etching inks don’t smell too bad but after printing mineral spirits is used to clean the plate.

What was it that made the old mimeo supply smell good?

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4219
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #58 on: July 18, 2019, 07:36 PM »
@Cheese  the fixture has four rows of led’s, 6 led’s per row per 2”. Overall length of rows is 45.5” so 45.5/2 = 22.75 x 24 = 546 led’s. BRIGHT!!!

Doh! Noticed in the enlarged photo that the columns of led’s are numbered. The last is 110 so there are 440 led’s.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2019, 07:42 PM by Michael Kellough »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6454
Re: Installing LED strips and other LED issues
« Reply #59 on: July 19, 2019, 11:04 AM »
@Cheese  the fixture has four rows of led’s, 6 led’s per row per 2”. Overall length of rows is 45.5” so 45.5/2 = 22.75 x 24 = 546 led’s. BRIGHT!!!

Doh! Noticed in the enlarged photo that the columns of led’s are numbered. The last is 110 so there are 440 led’s.

Nice stuff Michael  [smile]  Those are 2835 LED's...that's a good thing as they are currently the most efficient commercially available LED's. Another popular & inexpensive LED is the 5050. The 5050 is physically larger but the 2835 LED produces 20% more light than a 5050 LED while drawing 15% less current.

FWIW...the LED's get their name from their size. The 2835 is 2.8 mm x 3.5 mm and the 5050 is 5.0 mm x 5.0 mm.