Author Topic: Buying a Dust Extractor - Festool or another?  (Read 6066 times)

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Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 1289
Re: Buying a Dust Extractor - Festool or another?
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2019, 08:01 PM »
@Gregor the TNO site makes it very clear what it's testing regime was for the various extractors read - Dust Extractor Classification, here -
http://www.dustfreeworking.tno.nl/dust-extractors/dust-extractor-classification
 
it would be a waste of time if there wasn't a standardised test - seems so, no? The details for the test are clearly stated.
As I wrote: I am interested in the technical reasons for why the festool performed worse than other vacs on that task, sadly nothing in that regard can be found on that site.

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Offline Simon O

  • Posts: 54
Re: Buying a Dust Extractor - Festool or another?
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2019, 06:30 PM »
Hmmmm, let's have a think about the technical reasons why festool extractors didn't perform so well in the TNO testing arena......

Offline Sanderxpander

  • Posts: 381
Re: Buying a Dust Extractor - Festool or another?
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2019, 04:09 AM »
TNO doesn't go around guessing for reasons, they just rate performance. And unless you intend to improve the vac yourself, performance (and features) is really what matters.

Offline demographic

  • Posts: 502
Re: Buying a Dust Extractor - Festool or another?
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2019, 12:02 PM »
I've found the Hilti extractor to be pretty good but its big and numb to move around, the Makita one I used just didn't let me use much power through its socket.
Got a Festool CTM which I think is US equivelebt to HEPA? Anyway, its got good suction and all that but for me one massive plus is that I can use it to cart a stack of boxes about on any half decent flat site.
Being able to fasten systainers on top means one or even two less journeys to the van and less time wasted not actually working.

If you leave all your tools on site at the end of the day or in a workshop this likely wont matter but I unload in the morning and load my tools back in the van at the end of the day and it makes a huge difference to me.

Offline Sanderxpander

  • Posts: 381
Re: Buying a Dust Extractor - Festool or another?
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2019, 01:14 AM »
FWIW Starmix has a systainer dock too.

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1032
  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Buying a Dust Extractor - Festool or another?
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2019, 12:10 PM »
Hi,

I've spent quite some time on the TNO site and it leaves me with more questions than answers and I will go as far as questioning some of the presented results/"classifications".

It has been mentioned already:

Quote
To compare the performance of different vacuum extractors, TNO has developed a standard test. This is carried out using an industrial vacuum extractor in combination with a 125 mm Metabo angle grinder, model WE 9-125 Quick (900 W), fitted with a TNO dust shroud. The tool is operated continuously for 60 minutes, grinding sand-lime brick. During this time a groove 60 metres in length is produced. Approximately 7.0 kg of crystalline silica dust is collected in the extractor. Source: http://www.dustfreeworking.tno.nl/dust-extractors/dust-extractor-classification

I took the liberty of highlighting one of the interesting parts.

But it gets more interesting.

Quote
As well as innovating itself, TNO builds bridges to tool manufacturers. Once they have implemented dust-free tools and systems successfully, participating companies receive the TNO-Inspectorate SZW Dust-Free Contractor Award. The total cost for participants is €2000 over a two-year period. If you are interested in joining, complete and submit the contact form or call XXXX on +31 XXXXX Source: http://www.dustfreeworking.tno.nl/ministry-sae/letter-of-intent

And then speaking of questionable:

Taking a cordless L-Class dust extractor (which is not permitted for silica dust when used commercially) and claiming it is totally OK to use this day in day out. Test claims 2000 holes/day. -> http://www.dustfreeworking.tno.nl/tools/bosch-vacuum-cleaner-gas-18v-10-and-drills

Or to stay with Festool:

Taking the L-Class dust extractor CTL-SYS combined with OSC 18 on Meranti hard wood (which dust is actually proven to be cancerous, so again an M-Class extractor would be needed in a commercial setting) and claiming it is totally OK to use this day in day out. -> http://www.dustfreeworking.tno.nl/tools/festool-multitool-osc-400-with-festool-vacuum-cleaner-ctl-sys

And now I'm going out on a limb here, given they use only stock images - not one picture showing their test area/setup i.e. - I assume none of this has been actually tested.

And they are certainly not even close to be any kind of authority. It looks to me just like another useless seal/logo.

Edit: All just computer generated graphics:

http://www.dustfreeworking.tno.nl/innovation/tno-worst-case-room

http://www.dustfreeworking.tno.nl/innovation/tno-design-tools


Getting there. Here's the shroud. http://www.stofvrijwerken.tno.nl/innovatie1/recente-tno-innovaties/stofafzuiging-op-handgereedschappen

After seeing this, I actually have no further questions. If you know the shrouds produced by Bosch, Hilti ...

And another interesting claim in plain sight:

Quote
TNO heeft tientallen prototypen voor stofafzuiging op gereedschappen ontwikkeld. In samenwerking met vele marktpartijen (Hilti, Makita, Bosch, DeWalt, Festool e.a.) zijn innovatieve stofvrije gereedschappen op de markt gebracht. Source: http://www.dustfreeworking.tno.nl/innovation/successful-innovations/stofafzuiging-op-handgereedschappen-en

They claim they are working WITH Hilti, Makita, Bosch, DeWalt, Festool and have brought innovative dust-free tools to the market.

I will wholeheartedly apologize if Hilti, Makita, Bosch, DeWalt and/or Festool confirm they are working with TNO.

Not quite convinced but again, interesting:

https://www.festo.com/group/en/cms/10410.htm


Kind regards,
Oliver
« Last Edit: April 25, 2019, 12:41 PM by six-point socket II »
Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6081
Re: Buying a Dust Extractor - Festool or another?
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2019, 01:54 PM »
And they are certainly not even close to be any kind of authority.

But they actually are, they are a very highly regarded independent research, testing and development organisation. They have close ties with regulating government departments en with the Delft University of Technology, Hollands highest technology education. And of course with leading technology companies in Holland and Germany.

They have already existed for many decades and they do many product tests in all kinds of fields. They do not only test items, they also actively develop new solutions, mostly in the field of health and safety.
   
I've spent quite some time on the TNO site and it leaves me with more questions than answers and I will go as far as questioning some of the presented results/"classifications".

I agree with you their explanation of their tests is as minimal as you can get. I would also like to read more about it.

But .... they are not a tool magazine trying to get readers interested. They are more geared towards business and industry. A TNO certificate is highly regarded by companies.

You can rest assured that if they test something it is done one hundred times more scientifically sound than any magazine or website author could even dream to achieve. They have entire laboratories dedicated to testing. They have their own engineers that make test equipment and develop new solutions.

Like this dust shroud they mention. I guess you can't read Dutch but they mention they developed dozens of prototypes of dust shrouds for tools in cooperation with companies like Hilti, Makita, Bosch, DeWalt, Festool and others, some of which were subsequently brought to market.

And then speaking of questionable:

Taking a cordless L-Class dust extractor (which is not permitted for silica dust when used commercially) and claiming it is totally OK to use this day in day out. Test claims 2000 holes/day. -> http://www.dustfreeworking.tno.nl/tools/bosch-vacuum-cleaner-gas-18v-10-and-drills

They do not talk about European regulations for the trades. The Dutch government (in conjunction with the EU) sets an amount of dust you can inhale on a day while working, which is regarded safe. If you stay under the limit you're safe, if you inhale more your health is in danger on the short or long run.

While the EU made M-class vacs mandatory for professionals, that doesn't mean an L-class vac can work so good you would still stay under the safety limit working with it all day. And that is all what they tested. The amount of dust you're exposed to as a user.

And it is not that difficult to see in this particular test combination of vac and drill. Putting an angle grinder on stone generates quite a bit more airborn dust than simply drilling a hole with a dust shroud.

« Last Edit: April 25, 2019, 01:56 PM by Alex »

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1032
  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Buying a Dust Extractor - Festool or another?
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2019, 08:41 AM »
Thank you for clarifying that Alex, so I stand - partly - corrected.

I can read Dutch, see the last part of my previous post, I understand they claim to work with said companies. From the impressions I got I found that very hard to believe - but I will believe you, if you say that's the way it is.


And then speaking of questionable:

Taking a cordless L-Class dust extractor (which is not permitted for silica dust when used commercially) and claiming it is totally OK to use this day in day out. Test claims 2000 holes/day. -> http://www.dustfreeworking.tno.nl/tools/bosch-vacuum-cleaner-gas-18v-10-and-drills

They do not talk about European regulations for the trades. The Dutch government (in conjunction with the EU) sets an amount of dust you can inhale on a day while working, which is regarded safe. If you stay under the limit you're safe, if you inhale more your health is in danger on the short or long run.

While the EU made M-class vacs mandatory for professionals, that doesn't mean an L-class vac can work so good you would still stay under the safety limit working with it all day. And that is all what they tested. The amount of dust you're exposed to as a user.

And it is not that difficult to see in this particular test combination of vac and drill. Putting an angle grinder on stone generates quite a bit more airborn dust than simply drilling a hole with a dust shroud.


I understand that - but does their certification supersede EU regulations on worksites? If not, what is the actual benefit? (Except for knowing that it is safe - but still not permitted?)

That's one of the key factors that lead me to believe it's completely bogus in first place, by the way.

Like I said, I believe you when you say they are legit - but I think they should give their website and presenting of results a major overhaul to reflect that.

When they have the facilities, they could publish real pictures as a first step. Would give first time readers/visitors, who have never heard of them like me, a better idea of who they apparently are.

I too would like to read more, especially since it is not a magazine.

So, here TNO, I wholeheartedly apologize!

Kind regards,
Oliver

Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline Sanderxpander

  • Posts: 381
Re: Buying a Dust Extractor - Festool or another?
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2019, 01:49 PM »
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_Organisation_for_Applied_Scientific_Research

It doesn't say a whole lot about these tests but it gives some indication of what kind of organization it is and how they are funded.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 01:52 PM by Sanderxpander »

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1032
  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Buying a Dust Extractor - Festool or another?
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2019, 01:56 PM »
Thanks for sharing, hadn't looked for that! Interesting!

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1032
  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Buying a Dust Extractor - Festool or another?
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2019, 04:55 AM »
Since the subject is of general interest to me, I did some further research. Hilti is a bit more talkative about their "Dust research center" and the overall procedure:

https://www.hilti.group/content/hilti/CP/XX/en/company/health-safety-and-environment/health-and-safety-community/dust-research.html

https://www.hilti.co.uk/content/dam/documents/e1/gb/HSL%20Hilti%20report%20-%20DCC%20compliance%20with%20EN50632.pdf



Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1032
  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Buying a Dust Extractor - Festool or another?
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2019, 07:48 AM »
TNO has also more on their procedures: http://www.dustfreeworking.tno.nl/dynamics/modules/SFIL0100/view.php?fil_Id=487

Quite interesting.

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline Sanderxpander

  • Posts: 381
Re: Buying a Dust Extractor - Festool or another?
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2019, 09:05 AM »
Definitely seems a lot more serious than any YT vid I've seen :)

Offline 72chevy4x4

  • Posts: 4
Re: Buying a Dust Extractor - Festool or another?
« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2019, 11:05 AM »
my CT26 has been well used in the last 6 years-lots of concrete dust, sanding dust and of course sawdust.  I learned the cheap knockoff bags don't compare to the more costly Festool bags, good for thick stuff like ripping but not concrete surfacing (tile prep work). 

it's been a solid workhorse.  yes, a little heavy hauling up stairs but replace the bags when it's getting heavy or buy a CT-SYS for small jobs.  it's been a nice addition for me.