Author Topic: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System  (Read 5966 times)

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Offline GoingMyWay

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Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« on: May 28, 2019, 04:52 PM »
I came across a post on a Facebook woodworking group that showed this new safety technology: https://www.felder-group.com/fg-en/pcs.html.  It's supposed to be available on the Kappa550 table saw in 2020 in time for the IWF show in Atlanta.

I don't know exactly how it works, but it sounds very promising especially because it's non destructive and doesn't even require replacement cartridges like the Bosch Reaxx.
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Offline ChuckM

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2019, 05:54 PM »
Looks promising! If such technology can be used on cabinet saws and smaller table saws, both SawStop (and Reaxx after the patents expire) will be in trouble.

Even more promising is if it can be adapted to other machines like the mitre saws, bandsaws etc., like this Australian product:
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 05:58 PM by ChuckM »

Offline GoingMyWay

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2019, 05:58 PM »
Felder indicated on their Facebook page that they would be offering it on the "full line of machines" but "it will take some time."
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Offline ChuckM

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2019, 06:08 PM »
The sooner the better (I am a SawStop owner) because competition like that (hopefully) will either bring the SawStop more affordable to all woodworkers (they will be forced to lower their prices in time to compete), or will bring a new kind of safety protection for other machines. It is a win for all woodworkers.

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 838
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2019, 07:26 PM »
The sooner the better (I am a SawStop owner) because competition like that (hopefully) will either bring the SawStop more affordable to all woodworkers (they will be forced to lower their prices in time to compete), or will bring a new kind of safety protection for other machines. It is a win for all woodworkers.

Discussion of price (and lowering) are absurd in this forum. It is highly unlikely that there will be competition between Felder and SawStop or even Bosch who moved their Reaxx into the top of their price list. Competition is good and other solutions for blade protection were inevitable, but my last concern is and will continue to be price. A race to the bottom is something I don't want when safety is involved. The more interesting improvements will be for other tools like Felder appears to be doing.

BTW the last thing on your mind is the cost of a replacement cartridge or blade when you still have you realize you still have your  finger(s). I know as my SawStop saved my thumb (and possibly more). Rushed cut at the end of the day. I had made it more than 20 years without a mistake on the table saw other than a kickback or two.

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2019, 07:50 PM »
Price is one of the main reasons why many woodworkers today do not own a SawStop saw (despite it being the #1 selling cabinet saw these days in N.A.; by 2014, 50,000 SS were sold). We cannot discuss safety in isolation. It is not about racing to the bottom, but about SawStop or Reaxx (in due course) competing against a new, perhaps more powerful competitor.

I am not talking about competition between Felder (sliding saw manufacturer) and SawStop (cabinet and smaller saw manufacturer). Having learned their costly lesson, other table saw makers (presumably wiser now) would be more than willing to adopt Felder's innovation if it is technically feasible, and if Felder licenses the technology to them. The competition will be between SawStop and other table saw makers who are licensed to use the Felder's innovation.

Between replacing a cartridge/damaged blade (SawStop method), and a 15-second reset (Felder's, details unknown yet, presumably at no extra cost to the user per activation), a future cabinet saw buyer would prefer the latter, every other consideration being the same. This would be why SawStop will have to reduce its prices (profit margins accordingly) to compete. We are not talking about SawStop compromising its safety feature or sawing quality given a reduction in price.

Of course, if other table saw makers incorporated the Felder's technology in a poorly built saw, SawStop would have much less to worry about. But I don't anticipate that to be the case. I spent a lot on my SawStop not solely for its safety feature, but more for its sawing quality and repeatability.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 08:00 PM by ChuckM »

Offline BoulderAv

  • Posts: 17
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2019, 05:51 AM »
Felder makes very nice tools and for a more boutique industrial brand their prices are not absurd. The real question with what Felder is doing is if that can they get into their Felder and Hammer lines in a timely manner. Once it reaches the level of the Felder K700 SawStop will need to start worrying if they have been resting on their laurels too much.

Offline Svar

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2019, 02:41 PM »
The system appears to be non-contact, i.e. reacts on approach before the blade is touched. This is an advantage over the current tech.

Offline GoingMyWay

  • Posts: 884
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2019, 02:55 PM »
I thought I read it might work on infrared (though now I can't find where I saw that)?
 
Since it sounds like it's non-destructive it doesn't seem like having a false trigger of the safety mechanism would be that bad.
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Offline ChuckM

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2019, 03:16 PM »
When more information is released, we may find out whether the new technology can handle wet wood or metal without turning off the safety feature which is required under the SawStop system.

Offline promark747

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2019, 03:16 PM »
I'm curious how it would detect proximity...do you have to wear a special glove?  Obviously the contact system (Sawstop) wouldn't work with a meat cutting saw, but I have no idea how this would differentiate between a piece of meat and your hand.

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2019, 03:18 PM »
I'm curious how it would detect proximity...do you have to wear a special glove?  Obviously the contact system (Sawstop) wouldn't work with a meat cutting saw, but I have no idea how this would differentiate between a piece of meat and your hand.

"BladeStop is available in two sensing methods:
1.   Upon sensing contact with the operator, the blade stops operating within 0.009 seconds. This can be a huge difference between having just a small skin cut or an amputated finger.
2.   The sensing system detects operator gloves moving at high speed in a zone directly upstream from the saw blade and triggers the BladeStop™ mechanism to stop the meat band saw blade."
https://www.scottautomation.com/products/bladestop/
« Last Edit: May 29, 2019, 03:22 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Svar

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2019, 03:34 PM »
I'm curious how it would detect proximity...do you have to wear a special glove?  Obviously the contact system (Sawstop) wouldn't work with a meat cutting saw, but I have no idea how this would differentiate between a piece of meat and your hand.
It "senses body electromagnetic field" which is vague way to put it. No glove is needed.

Offline RussellS

  • Posts: 271
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2019, 08:41 PM »
Once it reaches the level of the Felder K700 SawStop will need to start worrying if they have been resting on their laurels too much.

I'm going to say it needs to get down to the Hammer brand saws before it really competes with SawStop.  Hammer K3 smallest saw is $5500.  Of course the Hammer K3 at $8500 is the only one worth having.  But...  The cheapest SawStop Industrial cabinet saw is about $4000.  So $1500-2000 difference in base saws.  Hammer has the sliding table which is why people buy the Hammer saw.  Is the sliding table worth $1500-2000 if both saws have a blade stop safety feature?

Offline BoulderAv

  • Posts: 17
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2019, 11:05 PM »
Once it reaches the level of the Felder K700 SawStop will need to start worrying if they have been resting on their laurels too much.

I'm going to say it needs to get down to the Hammer brand saws before it really competes with SawStop.  Hammer K3 smallest saw is $5500.  Of course the Hammer K3 at $8500 is the only one worth having.  But...  The cheapest SawStop Industrial cabinet saw is about $4000.  So $1500-2000 difference in base saws.  Hammer has the sliding table which is why people buy the Hammer saw.  Is the sliding table worth $1500-2000 if both saws have a blade stop safety feature?

Getting down to the Felder level is more about making SawStop think about product devlopment and differentiation. I am guessing that most SawStops sold are far less expensive varieties like the contractor or professional where Felder does not even compete thus Hammer's more expensive units are less of a threat. The real profit is in the approachable luxury/industrial market not the low or super high end (see BMW, Apple, etc).

Offline blaszcsj

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2019, 11:32 PM »
Once it reaches the level of the Felder K700 SawStop will need to start worrying if they have been resting on their laurels too much.

I'm going to say it needs to get down to the Hammer brand saws before it really competes with SawStop.  Hammer K3 smallest saw is $5500.  Of course the Hammer K3 at $8500 is the only one worth having.  But...  The cheapest SawStop Industrial cabinet saw is about $4000.  So $1500-2000 difference in base saws.  Hammer has the sliding table which is why people buy the Hammer saw.  Is the sliding table worth $1500-2000 if both saws have a blade stop safety feature?

Are you saying that the hammer would be of more or less value with the sawstop feature? The hammer slider value is that it provides more utility than the cabinet saw and the slider option for the sawstop is and additional $1k I believe. So the value proposition as stated is really over a difference of only 1K and I think the utility of a slider out weighs the added cost.
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Offline Bear77

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2019, 02:34 PM »
I talked to a felder sale rep. They say it only be  available for industrial unit.

Offline Svar

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2019, 02:46 PM »
the slider option for the sawstop is and additional $1k I believe.
Moreover, it's not a real slider as it does not go right past the blade. It has decreased utility because one can't use it to rip and straight-line solid lumber. All those add-on sliders for cabinet saws are just over-sized miter gauges.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 02:57 PM by Svar »

Offline RussellS

  • Posts: 271
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2019, 03:19 PM »
Once it reaches the level of the Felder K700 SawStop will need to start worrying if they have been resting on their laurels too much.

I'm going to say it needs to get down to the Hammer brand saws before it really competes with SawStop.  Hammer K3 smallest saw is $5500.  Of course the Hammer K3 at $8500 is the only one worth having.  But...  The cheapest SawStop Industrial cabinet saw is about $4000.  So $1500-2000 difference in base saws.  Hammer has the sliding table which is why people buy the Hammer saw.  Is the sliding table worth $1500-2000 if both saws have a blade stop safety feature?

Getting down to the Felder level is more about making SawStop think about product devlopment and differentiation. I am guessing that most SawStops sold are far less expensive varieties like the contractor or professional where Felder does not even compete thus Hammer's more expensive units are less of a threat. The real profit is in the approachable luxury/industrial market not the low or super high end (see BMW, Apple, etc).

Not sure what you are saying.  People buying Felder machines may not even know what a SawStop is.  They are in different worlds.  So Felder has their cheaper Hammer brand to compete against SawStop.  Those brands may attract the same customers.  Thus for Felder/Hammer to compete against SawStop using their blade safety mechanism, they must put the blade safety feature in the Hammer brand.  If the blade safety feature stays only in the Felder $10-15-20 thousand dollar machines, then it is not competing against SawStop.  Put the saw safety feature in the $5000 Hammer saws and it will be an effective feature for competing against SawStop.  Putting it in the Felder K700 $10,000 saw is not competing.  Putting it in the Hammer K3 $5500 may compete.  Or if Felder/Hammer want to start a third brand of cheap tools priced near SawStop and Jet and General, and include the saw blade safety feature.

Offline RussellS

  • Posts: 271
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2019, 03:31 PM »
Once it reaches the level of the Felder K700 SawStop will need to start worrying if they have been resting on their laurels too much.

I'm going to say it needs to get down to the Hammer brand saws before it really competes with SawStop.  Hammer K3 smallest saw is $5500.  Of course the Hammer K3 at $8500 is the only one worth having.  But...  The cheapest SawStop Industrial cabinet saw is about $4000.  So $1500-2000 difference in base saws.  Hammer has the sliding table which is why people buy the Hammer saw.  Is the sliding table worth $1500-2000 if both saws have a blade stop safety feature?

Are you saying that the hammer would be of more or less value with the sawstop feature? The hammer slider value is that it provides more utility than the cabinet saw and the slider option for the sawstop is and additional $1k I believe. So the value proposition as stated is really over a difference of only 1K and I think the utility of a slider out weighs the added cost.

The Hammer would be MORE value with the blade safety.  And Felder would be MORE value with the blade safety.  And ALL saws would be MORE value with the blade safety.  I am FOR safety.  Safety adds value always.  I wholeheartedly agree the European slider on the Felder/Hammer/SCMI/Altendorf/Martin saws is far far far superior to any American style saws.  And if I had to make a choice, I'd choose the European slider over any SawStop safety feature.  BUT, if I could get BOTH the European slider AND the saw safety blade feature, I'd choose that one.  Thus if Felder gets the safety feature down to the Hammer price level, I will spit and p-ss on the SawStop as I run to buy one.  I like the SawStop safety feature.  But putting it on an antiquated fossil American table saw is pointless to me.  I want modern, functional European sliding tablesaw.

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2019, 04:25 PM »

Snip.
 I like the SawStop safety feature.  But putting it on an antiquated fossil American table saw is pointless to me.  I want modern, functional European sliding tablesaw.

Most amateur woodworkers, especially in EU, don't have space for a sliding saw, money aside. If I put a siding saw in my shop, I would have to get rid of at least 50% of all other machines I have. So for people like me, the SawStop is the best table saw option available. Of course, many of us don't deal with sheet goods as much, and a sliding saw, given its price, can be an overkill.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 07:24 PM by ChuckM »

Offline RussellS

  • Posts: 271
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2019, 10:17 PM »

Snip.
 I like the SawStop safety feature.  But putting it on an antiquated fossil American table saw is pointless to me.  I want modern, functional European sliding tablesaw.

Most amateur woodworkers, especially in EU, don't have space for a sliding saw, money aside. If I put a siding saw in my shop, I would have to get rid of at least 50% of all other machines I have. So for people like me, the SawStop is the best table saw option available. Of course, many of us don't deal with sheet goods as much, and a sliding saw, given its price, can be an overkill.

Hammer offers sliding table saws in lengths of 31", 48", 79", and 126".  The 31" is basically a big miter saw.  Not too useful I think.  But the 48" and 79" would work for almost all furniture built.  6.5 feet is pretty close to the biggest table top or door you are going to make.  You need 13-14 feet of clear space for the 79" slider.  I bet almost all small shops have that much space.  And everyone loves rolling mobile bases for their tools.  So just park all your tools in the 4-6.5 foot outfeed section of the slider and move them out for the rare occasions you need the full 6.5 foot slider.  You could build an entire kitchen cabinet set and never need more than 3 feet of slider.  6 foot total length.  The 48", (8 foot total) slider would be perfect.

Sliding saws are not only used for sheet goods.  I think they would be perfect for all solid wood cutting.  Miter cuts, cross cuts, AND straight line ripping boards.  In 5 seconds you would have a straight line cut on one edge of a board with a slider.  Much faster than a track saw can cut it.

The maximum slider you can have in your shop is equal to the maximum length of wood you can rip on your tablesaw.  If you can rip an 8 foot length of board, then you can have an 8 foot slider.  And need roughly 17 feet of space.  8' infeed, 10" blade, 8' outfeed.  If the maximum you can rip is only 48", then you can have a 4 foot slider.  And need roughly 9 feet of clear space.  4' infeed, 10" blade, 4' outfeed.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 10:38 PM by RussellS »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6451
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2019, 01:22 AM »
It looks like it's based on a vision system which is way more high tech and potentially more configurable, than the strictly capacitance based system of the Saw Stop.

It seems like Gass exited stage left at the appropriate moment. That's a relief...enough of that grifter.

Offline GarryMartin

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2019, 06:42 AM »
There are videos of it in action at Ligna 2019 on Felder USA's Facebook page, including one of their employees demonstrating with his own finger while his colleagues are drinking beer in the background!  [eek]

https://www.facebook.com/feldergroupusa/videos/857046994655619/

Offline Bert Vanderveen

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2019, 07:13 AM »
The latest video on the Felder YouTube channel highlights some new stuff launched at the Ligna tradeshow. Among that the PCS. With an employee risking his fingers…

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Offline JimH2

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2019, 09:36 AM »
The "live finger" demonstration has to be the craziest thing I have ever seen. It looks awesome and is definitely a serious step ahead of the other vendors. This was of course inevitable because safety is paramount at businesses and that is Felder's primary market. A little extra money for the device will be recovered after the 1st save. At some point machines with safety devices will be in majority and insurance and workman's comp pricing will reflect it.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1222
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2019, 10:35 AM »
My neighbor got a new car that came with the latest safety features as "standard" offer, previously reserved for only the luxury models. With or without regulations, it is a matter of time that all future table saws will all come with "finger-saving" technology (contact or contact-less) or its derivatives.

Don't know if Dr. Gass picked the right time to enter the market with his innovation, but surely he seemed to have found the right time to exit!

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6451
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2019, 11:27 AM »
The latest video on the Felder YouTube channel highlights some new stuff launched at the Ligna tradeshow. Among that the PCS. With an employee risking his fingers…



Wow...Felder's going all-in on the automation front. Some pretty interesting ideas.  [big grin]

Offline kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 832
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2019, 02:43 PM »
Meet Harry, he's Felder's main man for training their sales staff to extract the maximum amount of money from your wallet. I've had the pleasure of drinking beer with him, he a good guy IMHO. The old saying " he could sell a refrigerator to an Eskimo" should be on this mans calling card.
The innovations are interesting but currently way beyond the reach of most small shops and only for those others with extremely deep pockets. One of the main selling features was that with a slider and proper use your fingers don't get as close as hotdog boy, funny how marketing changes, sort of like the wind. The only real benefit will come when it trickles down to the saws creating most of the injuries not the $30,000.00 to $50,000.00 saws.

Offline jmbfestool

  • Posts: 6628
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2019, 05:32 PM »
The sooner the better (I am a SawStop owner) because competition like that (hopefully) will either bring the SawStop more affordable to all woodworkers (they will be forced to lower their prices in time to compete), or will bring a new kind of safety protection for other machines. It is a win for all woodworkers.

To me the initial price is irrelevant really.

Reason I never would buy a sawstop was for two reasons.

One i dont like it when some one is trying make his/her product compulsory through law.

Secondly I never liked the idea that it can be triggered by not just your fingers but wet wood or metal objects which would cause damage to my brand new blade and cost of replacing sawstops cartridge and if not having a spare sharp blade to hand costing me a lost days work.

This would then cause me to deactivate the sawstop if i had doubts it being triggered or not which then defeats the point of sawstop.

This felder PCS system is the way forward now this is something ill be more than happy to have on my table saws infact rather than avoiding like i do with sawstop I will actually actively search for tools with such a device.



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Offline ChuckM

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2019, 06:01 PM »
The initial price was a big deal to the group of table saw makers that rejected SawStop's offer of technology. They argued that the technology would add a few hundred dollars to the base prices.

Yes, it is less than desirable when you have to turn off the SS when cutting wet wood and metal, and if the Felder's technology avoids that, it is a much better option, not to mention its non-destructive nature. Yet, unless you mostly deal with wet wood or the like, you are still better off in terms of protection for the rest of the time when using the saw.

In my case, I have used the bypass function twice since owning the SawStop (2014), each time 15 mins to half an hour. Percentage wise: 1% or less?
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 07:26 PM by ChuckM »

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline RussellS

  • Posts: 271
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2019, 08:34 PM »
One of the main selling features was that with a slider and proper use your fingers don't get as close

Agree agree agree.  The European slider just makes the table saw safe or safer.  With the slider, the usefulness or need of the finger saving safety feature is minimized.  Kind of like wearing a bullet proof vest when riding inside an armored and bullet proof glass vehicle.  What's the point?

Offline JimH2

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2019, 02:32 PM »
One of the main selling features was that with a slider and proper use your fingers don't get as close

Agree agree agree.  The European slider just makes the table saw safe or safer.  With the slider, the usefulness or need of the finger saving safety feature is minimized.  Kind of like wearing a bullet proof vest when riding inside an armored and bullet proof glass vehicle.  What's the point?

To a point, but the problem is that accidents do happen and when you least expect it.

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2019, 02:49 PM »
If the slider is the solution to sawing injuries, why has Felder invested money in developing this new technology in the first place??? [eek] I have seen videos showing some users making risky and dangerous cuts using a slider. Were they complacent? I don't know, but I do know I wouldn't do that with my SawStop.

Still any additional layer of protection against shop injuries on any machines, sliders included, is welcomed.

Offline kcufstoidi

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2019, 04:47 PM »
If the slider is the solution to sawing injuries, why has Felder invested money in developing this new technology in the first place??? [eek] I have seen videos showing some users making risky and dangerous cuts using a slider. Were they complacent? I don't know, but I do know I wouldn't do that with my SawStop.

Still any additional layer of protection against shop injuries on any machines, sliders included, is welcomed.

I would say with my experience with Felder its based on the nanny society we live in, no one wants to take responsibility for proper safety training or with their stupidity involving accidents. They believe throwing money at it is the answer. If it was for anything more than extracting more money why didn't they release it in their Hammer and more popular K700 series. The Kappa 550 release is a test to see if anyone will take the bait. We will see how that goes over, it least it a huge step up over the archaic design of the Sawstop and it destructive solution. Hopefully Festool will also refine this for the people that feel the need for one.

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2019, 04:55 PM »
If it was for anything more than extracting more money why didn't they release it in their Hammer and more popular K700 series.

Someone quoted a Felder rep., saying the plan is to release Hammer with the PCS feature in 2023 (is it 2025?).

Offline Svar

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Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2019, 05:18 PM »
I would say with my experience with Felder its based on the nanny society we live in, no one wants to take responsibility for proper safety training or with their stupidity involving accidents. They believe throwing money at it is the answer.
No, simply no one wants to get injured. Hence people tend to chose safer things. Training and safety features are not mutually exclusive, they complement each other.

If it was for anything more than extracting more money why didn't they release it in their Hammer and more popular K700 series.
They are for profit, so money in exchange for new products is the name of the game. As for why not Hammer. Its a standard practice to introduce new tech starting from premium models whether its tools, cars, or phones.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 06:59 PM by Svar »

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 838
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2019, 05:47 PM »
If the slider is the solution to sawing injuries, why has Felder invested money in developing this new technology in the first place??? [eek] I have seen videos showing some users making risky and dangerous cuts using a slider. Were they complacent? I don't know, but I do know I wouldn't do that with my SawStop.

Still any additional layer of protection against shop injuries on any machines, sliders included, is welcomed.

I would say with my experience with Felder its based on the nanny society we live in, no one wants to take responsibility for proper safety training or with their stupidity involving accidents. They believe throwing money at it is the answer. If it was for anything more than extracting more money why didn't they release it in their Hammer and more popular K700 series. The Kappa 550 release is a test to see if anyone will take the bait. We will see how that goes over, it least it a huge step up over the archaic design of the Sawstop and it destructive solution. Hopefully Festool will also refine this for the people that feel the need for one.

I hardly call Sawstop's solution archaic. You may not like the implementation, but it does work and destruction of the blade is your last concern after you notice you still have 10 digits. They were first to market and spent significant time and money developing a product that has never existed. The 2nd and subsequent entrants to the market have it a lot easier.

Sawstop also enabled schools to once again have table saws that students can use (and be trained on). When I was in middle and high school we had a table saw in the shop, but the only person who could use it was the teache

I'll add that there is a lot more than what you describe as the "nanny state" involved in decisions to add safety features. Companies with large shops want these to prevent injuries which can cost them production time and ultimately money. Insurance companies also want them as they don't want to cover costly claims related to injuries. Workman's comp is not cheap in industrial work environments. Anything to lower risk is important and will save money. Small to medium size shops are at the greatest risk of an injury to a key employee (it may be the end of their business).

As a business owner there is no choice when it comes to safety. These are going to mandated by the government (OSHA) or insurance companies through premiums at some point. With more than one manufacturer that time will be sooner rather than later. Better to be ahead of the game than caught with a product you can't sell or that no one wants.

The good news for you is that if you have an industrial table saw you will never need (or be forced) to buy a safer saw because it will last you a lifetime if cared for and maintained.



« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 06:06 PM by JimH2 »

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1222
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2019, 09:01 PM »
The SawStop technology is almost 20 years now, and like it or not, it has saved more fingers than any other table saw safety devices. If Felder's innovation is a step or many steps ahead of it, Dr. Gass should feel happy because it is his breakthrough that allowed such further safety innovation to happen. We must not forget that SawStop was a risky, unproven commercial proposal back then. Its subsequent business success paved the way for others to invest in improving the finger-saving technology.

Remember Whirlwind flesh sensing technology? I wonder what effects the Felder's new innovation might have on its table saw finger-saving product development.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 10:48 PM by ChuckM »

Offline kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 832
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2019, 09:38 PM »
"They are for profit, so money in exchange for new products is the name of the game. As for why not Hammer. Its a standard practice to introduce new tech starting from premium models whether its tools, cars, or phones."

If they were truly in it to for profit it would have been introduced into an affordable model that would sell way more units, not just the highest priced saw in their lineup. Sort of like Bosch did with their adaption of non destructive tech. Tables saws/sliders are something that are continually disappearing in any major operations because of CNC. Makes more sense to put the $50,000.00 towards a CNC, it can produce more per dollar/hr of operation and is much safer.

As far as table saw in schools they started dying when school boards started crashing tech courses that were deemed to expensive to maintain and lack of interest from the current generations. The lawyers killed it further with their ambulance chasing ways then the insurance companies finished it off with stupid premiums because of the parasitic lawyers. As far as Sawstop once you use a slider properly for any length of time you will understand the comments about safety. If given a Sawstop, I would sell it to buy more accessories for my current equipment. As for Gass, he is a truly unique individual for the garbage he tried to pull. Only time will tell if Felder PCS goes the way the Griggo system went, their marketing will be interesting as they back pedal on their previous sales tactics. As we are seeing the only truly safe way for business to shield itself is too limit human machine contact through robotic interfaces. A human operator has always found a way to get injured no matter how safe the environment is.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6451
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2019, 10:26 PM »
The SawStop technology is almost 20 years now, and like it or not, it has saved more fingers than other table saw safety devices. If Felder's innovation is a step or many steps ahead of it, Dr. Gass should feel happy because it is his breakthrough that allowed such further safety innovation to happen. We must not forget that SawStop was a risky, unproven commercial proposal back then. Its subsequent business success paved the way for others to invest in improving the finger-saving technology.

Well let's not wax rhapsodic about the man. You've almost tried to elevate him into a sainthood position. He's simply a crafty attorney with deep pockets that invented something and then attempted to mandate it's inclusion on every single table saw sold in the US at a premium fee which would then gain him further financial benefit. He's not a Mother Theresa.

If he was as altruistic as he espouses to be, why would he have killed the Bosch Reaxx in the US? If you're truly interested in just saving fingers, you don't quash viable alternatives...you embrace them.

Sorry no pass for this guy...

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1222
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2019, 10:33 PM »

Well let's not wax rhapsodic about the man. You've almost tried to elevate him into a sainthood position. He's simply a crafty attorney with deep pockets that invented something and then attempted to mandate it's inclusion on every single table saw sold in the US at a premium fee which would then gain him further financial benefit. He's not a Mother Theresa.

If he was as altruistic as he espouses to be, why would he have killed the Bosch Reaxx in the US? If you're truly interested in just saving fingers, you don't quash viable alternatives...you embrace them.

Sorry no pass for this guy...

Whether Dr. Gass is a saint or not, none of my business. I do know he was a successful inventor, and a successful businessman as judged by his invention and business accomplishments. His breakthrough technology has saved not only fingers but also the worklife of many, whether that qualified him to become a saint, again, is none of my concern. In fact, as a woodworker and as a SawStop user, I am not interested in any sainthood, I only care about my shop safety when using my table saw.

I also know every business or businessperson, SawStop or not, is entitled to protect their legitimate interests through the court. This is how the business world in a developed country works.

As far as I know, every safety feature I find in my car, I have paid for them, and they are not offered free by the dealership. Not everybody wants or needs the SawStop protection; I wanted it and so I paid full price for it.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 10:48 PM by ChuckM »

Offline simonh

  • Posts: 68
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2019, 08:51 AM »
I wonder how down-scaleable the Felder technology is.  The top-end Felder saws which this is featuring on already have a fair amount of computer processing power onboard. Those computers are presumably used in feeding data from 'detection sensors' into the computer to interpret the data and look for 'unusual' objects entering the blade area and then activate the blade drop. How scaleable all that is into contractor saw I'm not so sure. The Sawstop by contrast is a very simple hardware based conductivity circuit.

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 1337
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #43 on: Yesterday at 06:51 AM »
I wonder how down-scaleable the Felder technology is.  The top-end Felder saws which this is featuring on already have a fair amount of computer processing power onboard. Those computers are presumably used in feeding data from 'detection sensors' into the computer to interpret the data and look for 'unusual' objects entering the blade area and then activate the blade drop. How scaleable all that is into contractor saw I'm not so sure. The Sawstop by contrast is a very simple hardware based conductivity circuit.
There are two differences between the Felder and the Sawstop.

One is in the operation where Felder uses electro magnets (which are heavy but can be used repeatedly) to retract the mechanic to remove the blade from the user - while Sawstop uses pytorechnics (which are light but single-use) to destructively stop the blade and from this make its momentum rotate the mechanic out of the way.

The other is the sensitivity of the detection, both the system detect changes in electrical capacitance of the blade.
While the Sawstop needs contact with the user... the Felder is way more sensitive (it basically works like a Theremin) and from this is able to detect flesh way before it makes contact with the blade, it also is able to detect the speed of the approaching flesh.

The processing power needed in the felder system should be well within the capability of a 3€ microcontroller, the whole detection system should be doable (when leaving out the bling like the touch screen) for a BOM of <10€.