Author Topic: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System  (Read 5496 times)

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Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1169
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2019, 06:01 PM »
The initial price was a big deal to the group of table saw makers that rejected SawStop's offer of technology. They argued that the technology would add a few hundred dollars to the base prices.

Yes, it is less than desirable when you have to turn off the SS when cutting wet wood and metal, and if the Felder's technology avoids that, it is a much better option, not to mention its non-destructive nature. Yet, unless you mostly deal with wet wood or the like, you are still better off in terms of protection for the rest of the time when using the saw.

In my case, I have used the bypass function twice since owning the SawStop (2014), each time 15 mins to half an hour. Percentage wise: 1% or less?
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 07:26 PM by ChuckM »

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Offline RussellS

  • Posts: 263
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2019, 08:34 PM »
One of the main selling features was that with a slider and proper use your fingers don't get as close

Agree agree agree.  The European slider just makes the table saw safe or safer.  With the slider, the usefulness or need of the finger saving safety feature is minimized.  Kind of like wearing a bullet proof vest when riding inside an armored and bullet proof glass vehicle.  What's the point?

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 815
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2019, 02:32 PM »
One of the main selling features was that with a slider and proper use your fingers don't get as close

Agree agree agree.  The European slider just makes the table saw safe or safer.  With the slider, the usefulness or need of the finger saving safety feature is minimized.  Kind of like wearing a bullet proof vest when riding inside an armored and bullet proof glass vehicle.  What's the point?

To a point, but the problem is that accidents do happen and when you least expect it.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1169
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #33 on: June 05, 2019, 02:49 PM »
If the slider is the solution to sawing injuries, why has Felder invested money in developing this new technology in the first place??? [eek] I have seen videos showing some users making risky and dangerous cuts using a slider. Were they complacent? I don't know, but I do know I wouldn't do that with my SawStop.

Still any additional layer of protection against shop injuries on any machines, sliders included, is welcomed.

Online kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 826
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #34 on: June 05, 2019, 04:47 PM »
If the slider is the solution to sawing injuries, why has Felder invested money in developing this new technology in the first place??? [eek] I have seen videos showing some users making risky and dangerous cuts using a slider. Were they complacent? I don't know, but I do know I wouldn't do that with my SawStop.

Still any additional layer of protection against shop injuries on any machines, sliders included, is welcomed.

I would say with my experience with Felder its based on the nanny society we live in, no one wants to take responsibility for proper safety training or with their stupidity involving accidents. They believe throwing money at it is the answer. If it was for anything more than extracting more money why didn't they release it in their Hammer and more popular K700 series. The Kappa 550 release is a test to see if anyone will take the bait. We will see how that goes over, it least it a huge step up over the archaic design of the Sawstop and it destructive solution. Hopefully Festool will also refine this for the people that feel the need for one.

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1169
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #35 on: June 05, 2019, 04:55 PM »
If it was for anything more than extracting more money why didn't they release it in their Hammer and more popular K700 series.

Someone quoted a Felder rep., saying the plan is to release Hammer with the PCS feature in 2023 (is it 2025?).

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1768
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #36 on: June 05, 2019, 05:18 PM »
I would say with my experience with Felder its based on the nanny society we live in, no one wants to take responsibility for proper safety training or with their stupidity involving accidents. They believe throwing money at it is the answer.
No, simply no one wants to get injured. Hence people tend to chose safer things. Training and safety features are not mutually exclusive, they complement each other.

If it was for anything more than extracting more money why didn't they release it in their Hammer and more popular K700 series.
They are for profit, so money in exchange for new products is the name of the game. As for why not Hammer. Its a standard practice to introduce new tech starting from premium models whether its tools, cars, or phones.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 06:59 PM by Svar »

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 815
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #37 on: June 05, 2019, 05:47 PM »
If the slider is the solution to sawing injuries, why has Felder invested money in developing this new technology in the first place??? [eek] I have seen videos showing some users making risky and dangerous cuts using a slider. Were they complacent? I don't know, but I do know I wouldn't do that with my SawStop.

Still any additional layer of protection against shop injuries on any machines, sliders included, is welcomed.

I would say with my experience with Felder its based on the nanny society we live in, no one wants to take responsibility for proper safety training or with their stupidity involving accidents. They believe throwing money at it is the answer. If it was for anything more than extracting more money why didn't they release it in their Hammer and more popular K700 series. The Kappa 550 release is a test to see if anyone will take the bait. We will see how that goes over, it least it a huge step up over the archaic design of the Sawstop and it destructive solution. Hopefully Festool will also refine this for the people that feel the need for one.

I hardly call Sawstop's solution archaic. You may not like the implementation, but it does work and destruction of the blade is your last concern after you notice you still have 10 digits. They were first to market and spent significant time and money developing a product that has never existed. The 2nd and subsequent entrants to the market have it a lot easier.

Sawstop also enabled schools to once again have table saws that students can use (and be trained on). When I was in middle and high school we had a table saw in the shop, but the only person who could use it was the teache

I'll add that there is a lot more than what you describe as the "nanny state" involved in decisions to add safety features. Companies with large shops want these to prevent injuries which can cost them production time and ultimately money. Insurance companies also want them as they don't want to cover costly claims related to injuries. Workman's comp is not cheap in industrial work environments. Anything to lower risk is important and will save money. Small to medium size shops are at the greatest risk of an injury to a key employee (it may be the end of their business).

As a business owner there is no choice when it comes to safety. These are going to mandated by the government (OSHA) or insurance companies through premiums at some point. With more than one manufacturer that time will be sooner rather than later. Better to be ahead of the game than caught with a product you can't sell or that no one wants.

The good news for you is that if you have an industrial table saw you will never need (or be forced) to buy a safer saw because it will last you a lifetime if cared for and maintained.



« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 06:06 PM by JimH2 »

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1169
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #38 on: June 05, 2019, 09:01 PM »
The SawStop technology is almost 20 years now, and like it or not, it has saved more fingers than any other table saw safety devices. If Felder's innovation is a step or many steps ahead of it, Dr. Gass should feel happy because it is his breakthrough that allowed such further safety innovation to happen. We must not forget that SawStop was a risky, unproven commercial proposal back then. Its subsequent business success paved the way for others to invest in improving the finger-saving technology.

Remember Whirlwind flesh sensing technology? I wonder what effects the Felder's new innovation might have on its table saw finger-saving product development.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 10:48 PM by ChuckM »

Online kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 826
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2019, 09:38 PM »
"They are for profit, so money in exchange for new products is the name of the game. As for why not Hammer. Its a standard practice to introduce new tech starting from premium models whether its tools, cars, or phones."

If they were truly in it to for profit it would have been introduced into an affordable model that would sell way more units, not just the highest priced saw in their lineup. Sort of like Bosch did with their adaption of non destructive tech. Tables saws/sliders are something that are continually disappearing in any major operations because of CNC. Makes more sense to put the $50,000.00 towards a CNC, it can produce more per dollar/hr of operation and is much safer.

As far as table saw in schools they started dying when school boards started crashing tech courses that were deemed to expensive to maintain and lack of interest from the current generations. The lawyers killed it further with their ambulance chasing ways then the insurance companies finished it off with stupid premiums because of the parasitic lawyers. As far as Sawstop once you use a slider properly for any length of time you will understand the comments about safety. If given a Sawstop, I would sell it to buy more accessories for my current equipment. As for Gass, he is a truly unique individual for the garbage he tried to pull. Only time will tell if Felder PCS goes the way the Griggo system went, their marketing will be interesting as they back pedal on their previous sales tactics. As we are seeing the only truly safe way for business to shield itself is too limit human machine contact through robotic interfaces. A human operator has always found a way to get injured no matter how safe the environment is.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6263
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2019, 10:26 PM »
The SawStop technology is almost 20 years now, and like it or not, it has saved more fingers than other table saw safety devices. If Felder's innovation is a step or many steps ahead of it, Dr. Gass should feel happy because it is his breakthrough that allowed such further safety innovation to happen. We must not forget that SawStop was a risky, unproven commercial proposal back then. Its subsequent business success paved the way for others to invest in improving the finger-saving technology.

Well let's not wax rhapsodic about the man. You've almost tried to elevate him into a sainthood position. He's simply a crafty attorney with deep pockets that invented something and then attempted to mandate it's inclusion on every single table saw sold in the US at a premium fee which would then gain him further financial benefit. He's not a Mother Theresa.

If he was as altruistic as he espouses to be, why would he have killed the Bosch Reaxx in the US? If you're truly interested in just saving fingers, you don't quash viable alternatives...you embrace them.

Sorry no pass for this guy...

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1169
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2019, 10:33 PM »

Well let's not wax rhapsodic about the man. You've almost tried to elevate him into a sainthood position. He's simply a crafty attorney with deep pockets that invented something and then attempted to mandate it's inclusion on every single table saw sold in the US at a premium fee which would then gain him further financial benefit. He's not a Mother Theresa.

If he was as altruistic as he espouses to be, why would he have killed the Bosch Reaxx in the US? If you're truly interested in just saving fingers, you don't quash viable alternatives...you embrace them.

Sorry no pass for this guy...

Whether Dr. Gass is a saint or not, none of my business. I do know he was a successful inventor, and a successful businessman as judged by his invention and business accomplishments. His breakthrough technology has saved not only fingers but also the worklife of many, whether that qualified him to become a saint, again, is none of my concern. In fact, as a woodworker and as a SawStop user, I am not interested in any sainthood, I only care about my shop safety when using my table saw.

I also know every business or businessperson, SawStop or not, is entitled to protect their legitimate interests through the court. This is how the business world in a developed country works.

As far as I know, every safety feature I find in my car, I have paid for them, and they are not offered free by the dealership. Not everybody wants or needs the SawStop protection; I wanted it and so I paid full price for it.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 10:48 PM by ChuckM »

Offline simonh

  • Posts: 68
Re: Felder PCS® Preventive Contact System
« Reply #42 on: June 21, 2019, 08:51 AM »
I wonder how down-scaleable the Felder technology is.  The top-end Felder saws which this is featuring on already have a fair amount of computer processing power onboard. Those computers are presumably used in feeding data from 'detection sensors' into the computer to interpret the data and look for 'unusual' objects entering the blade area and then activate the blade drop. How scaleable all that is into contractor saw I'm not so sure. The Sawstop by contrast is a very simple hardware based conductivity circuit.