Author Topic: Table Saw Purchase  (Read 4413 times)

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Offline ctvader

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Re: Table Saw Purchase
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2019, 01:20 PM »
The noise difference is minimal.  I used the PCS @ a woodcraft store (Woodworkers club) in CT and it’s very quiet.  When I purchased the contractor saw, I don’t recall the noise level being that much louder, if any.  Either saw is a great purchase.

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Offline WoodworkTech

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Re: Table Saw Purchase
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2019, 01:22 PM »
Since the laundry and gym are in the same space I would be far more concerned with dust control instead of noise. Ear protection is easy, cleaning up dust from everything is less so.

Very true.  I have a Dewalt miter saw and even with a vac attached, dust get everywhere.  I stopped using it indoors.  I saw the Kapex this morning in a lumber store.  Looked very nice and the guy said the dust collection was the best in any miter saw he’s seen.
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Offline WoodworkTech

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Re: Table Saw Purchase
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2019, 01:29 PM »
The noise difference is minimal.  I used the PCS @ a woodcraft store (Woodworkers club) in CT and it’s very quiet.  When I purchased the contractor saw, I don’t recall the noise level being that much louder, if any.  Either saw is a great purchase.
Your happy with the dust collection of the contractor saw?  I’m looking at the 36” of either model
To get the T-glide fence
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Offline ctvader

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Re: Table Saw Purchase
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2019, 03:48 PM »
The dust collection is fine - I used a 4 inch adapter to connector to a shop vac.  I’m sure the over arm dust collection is great.  Any dust is swept and vacuumed up.  Do you have a woodcraft or similar near you where you can try both saws? 

Offline WoodworkTech

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Re: Table Saw Purchase
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2019, 03:50 PM »
The dust collection is fine - I used a 4 inch adapter to connector to a shop vac.  I’m sure the over arm dust collection is great.  Any dust is swept and vacuumed up.  Do you have a woodcraft or similar near you where you can try both saws?

No.  Unfortunately my nearest woodcraft is in Connecticut.  About 1 hour 30 min drive from Long Island, NY
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Offline ctvader

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Re: Table Saw Purchase
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2019, 03:58 PM »
Is that the one in Norwalk, CT?  If ever near it, stop in.  John’s a great guy with a massive shop upstairs.  I’m about 25 miles north of there but use the shop when I need the jointer and planer. 

Offline WoodworkTech

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Re: Table Saw Purchase
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2019, 04:00 PM »
Is that the one in Norwalk, CT?  If ever near it, stop in.  John’s a great guy with a massive shop upstairs.  I’m about 25 miles north of there but use the shop when I need the jointer and planer.

That’s the one.  I’ve never been there but GPS shows it as the closest one to me.  There is a store by me where I get my Festool tools and they sell SawStop’s but have none out for display.  They only take orders for them.
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Offline JimD

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Re: Table Saw Purchase
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2019, 07:52 PM »
I have a 14x24 foot shop, a DeWalt track saw and a SawStop PCS, 1.75hp.  I think having both the track saw and table saw are ideal for a small shop like mine.  The 1.75hp motor on the SawStop is big enough as long as you use a sharp, clean, ripping blade for deep rips.  I use my 50 tooth infinity all around blade for rips up through 5/4 oak.  If the wood pinches the blade on the offcut side the motor struggles but otherwise it works fine.  Deeper rips I will use my infinity 24 tooth ripping blade.  Both blades are full kerf (1/8 inch).  I might try thinner kerf blades if the saw continues to struggle sometime but switching to the ripping blade should resolve it.  And it usually doesn't happen in 5/4. 

I used to use a Ryobi BT3100 which has a 15amp universal motor.  Due to motor efficiencies I think it is less powerfull than the 1.75hp SawStop.  But I've ripped hardwood (oak, cherry, and maple) over 3 inches deep with it.  I had to go slow sometimes but it did an accurate job.  I expect the same with the SawStop.  I really think the only limitation of the smaller motors is the need to switch to a ripping blade for deep rips. 

I've also cut 8/4 oak with my DeWalt track saw.  It didn't always like it so I got a ripping blade for it too.  It's motor is only a 13A universal motor. 

I use a Ron Paulk inspired 3 foot by 7 foot outfeed table/tracksaw cutting station/assembly table.  The top is bored with 20mm holes and I use Festool clamps in it sometimes. 

Offline TheSergeant

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Re: Table Saw Purchase
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2019, 08:07 PM »
Forget the MFT3, it's not worth it at just about any price, let alone $720.  I've had 3 of them, modified to varying degrees but ultimately was never satisfied.  A Sawstop is 100% the way to go. 

I'm in a similar situation in that we have a gym in our garage along with my shop.  Dust collection is super important for me and it starts at the tool.  Pick up the PCS and get the overarm dust collection guard to go with it.  The dust collection on the Sawstop with the guard is way better than the Festool Track Saw.  I actually ended up selling my Festool and getting the Makita Cordless track saw.  I break down my sheet goods to a manageable size outside and then bring everything in and do the finish work on the table saw. 

I currently have a Laguna table saw with a custom riving knife to fit the Sawstop dust collector guard.  I'm picking up a Sawstop ICS 3hp on Tuesday and am beyond excited about it. 

Offline WoodworkTech

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Re: Table Saw Purchase
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2019, 08:13 PM »
Forget the MFT3, it's not worth it at just about any price, let alone $720.  I've had 3 of them, modified to varying degrees but ultimately was never satisfied.  A Sawstop is 100% the way to go. 

I'm in a similar situation in that we have a gym in our garage along with my shop.  Dust collection is super important for me and it starts at the tool.  Pick up the PCS and get the overarm dust collection guard to go with it.  The dust collection on the Sawstop with the guard is way better than the Festool Track Saw.  I actually ended up selling my Festool and getting the Makita Cordless track saw.  I break down my sheet goods to a manageable size outside and then bring everything in and do the finish work on the table saw. 

I currently have a Laguna table saw with a custom riving knife to fit the Sawstop dust collector guard.  I'm picking up a Sawstop ICS 3hp on Tuesday and am beyond excited about it.

Which over arm dust collection do you recommend?  I see on for $199 and the floating one for $399.  From my readings, with the floating one, you can run dados with dust collection but cannot add a router table in the right wing of you want to later.
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Offline ChuckM

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Re: Table Saw Purchase
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2019, 08:23 PM »
Snip.

 I break down my sheet goods to a manageable size outside and then bring everything in and do the finish work on the table saw.

I've been able to handle 4 x 8 on my SawStop thanks to the JessEm™ Table Saw Guides which pull the stock tight to the fence as you push.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2019, 08:44 PM by ChuckM »

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Table Saw Purchase
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2019, 08:38 PM »
Snip

Which over arm dust collection do you recommend?  I see on for $199 and the floating one for $399.  From my readings, with the floating one, you can run dados with dust collection but cannot add a router table in the right wing of you want to later.

I assume you already have or are getting the Dust Collection Blade Guard, as the Overarm Dust Collection Accessory is not used alone by itself.

The Floating Overarm Dust Collection Guard has two major disadvantages as was its similar predecessor tube design under different brand names:

1) The tube is heavy and you need to pull hard to adjust its position
2) Every time you adjust the fence setting (for narrower or wider cuts), you may also have to adjust the tube (when you cut stock of different thicknesses, you also have to adjust the shroud, but raising or lowering the shroud is easier than adjusting the tube's lateral position).

The overarm dust collection accessory (esp. if hooked up to a separate vac) is more effective than the floating arm in dust collection because there is no vertical gap between the guard/shroud and the work, and there is no need to do anything when you change the fence setting. It does have one disadvantage compared to the floating arm: to make non-through cuts, you need to remove the whole dust collection blade guard, or when you use the cross-cut sled, you'll have no above-the-table dust collection (unless you make something like this for your cross-cut sled: http://lumberjocks.com/projects/102218).
« Last Edit: January 12, 2019, 08:46 PM by ChuckM »

Offline pettyconstruction

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Re: Table Saw Purchase
« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2019, 11:11 PM »
I use two single edge razor blades like you use for scraping a window.  Measure from a square edge, place a razor blade corner pressed in at that index mark on both ends of the piece.  Slide the guide rail up against those two blade marked points.  Optionally clamp down the rail.  Remove the razor blades and make the cut.

It's the most accurate and least expensive way I have found if you don't want to mess with the various options for parallel guides.
That’s the best way for sure , just don’t slam the rail against the razor blade .
Charlie


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Offline travisj

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Re: Table Saw Purchase
« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2019, 11:12 PM »
I had a PCS1.75 w/52” fence (I used to have the space) long before I had a track saw.  Since I purchased a TS55 I have not broken down sheet goods with the table saw.  It is invaluable though for solid wood and smaller pieces.  The dust collection is superb with the Sawtop over arm dust collection.  As was previously stated, 6/4 and thicker lumber can be a challenge.  I upgraded my 1.75 to the 3hp model myself.  SawStop will sell you the parts required (I did a brief thread on my conversion).

As also was previously stated, you will need the space to operate the saw and support for the outfeed.  Now that I am in a 15’ x 15’ shop, I intentionally built all of my work surfaces at the height of my tablesaw (MFT on a rolling cabinet, Sjoberg’s bench, and a 9’ workbench/outfeed cabinet).  I recall seeing your Kreg/MFT, but I’m not sure how adjustable it would be for height.  If possible, I would recommend modifying that to the height of whatever table saw you go with.  That could be rolled up to your saw for out feed support.  If you kept the saw stationary, you could build a base to raise the saw’s height.

For the PCS, there are two different mobile base options.  The ICS version is awesome, I have the PCS version.  Even the “small” version makes the saw incredibly mobile.  In my old space, I could easily move my large fence saw anywhere.

The T-glide fence and rail system are vastly superior to the job site fence or the premium fence.  I believe the T-Glide is only available on the PCS or ICS.

As with Festool, pricing is fixed.  The only “sale” they ever have is a rebate for a free accessory (mobile base or overarm dust collection). 

Whether you care about the safety features or not, the PCS is an incredibly well built saw.



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Offline TSO Products

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Re: Table Saw Purchase
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2019, 01:42 PM »
@WoodworkTech  - you prompted a really useful discussion here. Makes the FOG the useful platform we all look to.

Let me add my 2-cents since you would rightly suspect me to be biased.
I started my sawing with a used 5hp UNISAW at a plant shutdown price from a high tech company - very lightly used. Discovered the table was not flat and sold it. Bought a new 3 hp UNISAW with all the extensions available and a BRETT overarm dust pickup and HTC rolling base and a DELTA (!) Digital Readout. Really great tool for decades of use. HOWEVER, struggling to build sheetgoods cabinets, I swore after we moved that I would never use a cabinet saw to break down sheet goods again.
That led to the TS-55. The absence of a decent squaring accessory led to the GRS-16 and the rest is history.

As proud as we are of our  TSO tools for tracksaws, we don't believe a tracksaw is the best tool for everything. Narrow stock is easiest on a table saw. If you can wangle the room for a table saw like the DeWalt with its accurate fence reputation or a mobile base SS PCS - go for it. BTW: there is a reason why Tooltechnic/FESTOOL bought SawStop. They obviously see a place for a table saw next to tracksaws - not in-lieu of.

I would definitely resist the temptation of getting a slider attachment - use the track saw for sheet goods.

Hans
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Offline Alanbach

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Re: Table Saw Purchase
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2019, 01:50 PM »
@TSO Products - Thank you Hans for that comment! Great post!

Offline TealaG

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Re: Table Saw Purchase
« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2019, 05:09 PM »
Paul - have you considered the plastic sheeting walls to manage dust?   I hear that other folks have good success with that.   

Offline Master Carpenter

  • Posts: 106
Re: Table Saw Purchase
« Reply #47 on: January 14, 2019, 10:38 PM »
I’m going to go back to the OP’s original problem, not getting parallel cuts with a track saw. First start with a stable surface to cut on.  Getting a parallel cut should be attainable with only a measuring device and a sharp marking tool. I keep a pencil sharpener in my apron and keep a good point on my pencils, I know others who use mechanical pencils or marking knifes. Make small, but bold marks. The measuring device can be your personal preference, but use the same one throughout. I’ll asume a standard tape measure, I prefer one with fine lines on it and good colour contrast, I often buy ones with white background as I find them easier on my eyes.

Then we get to the track, if you want precision, your going to be changing the splitter guard often, like as few as 5 cuts. I often peel mine and move them out abit to get more mileage out of them. Clamp the tracks on the line, then back check the rail by measuring from the edge of plywood to edge of rail, if it’s exact make the cut. Also, keep your arm inline with the track as you push, you want the pushing force to line up with direction of cut.

I won’t get into the merits of a table saw as it’s been covered well enough already, I agree with most of what’s above, I have 2 tablesaws in my shop, but I can get perfectly parallel cuts with both tools.

Offline woodvkk

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Re: Table Saw Purchase
« Reply #48 on: January 15, 2019, 09:13 AM »
As a hobbyist like the OP I struggled with only a track saw for more than a year.  It took way too much time prior to the release of the TSO products to get things square. I ended up with the Sawstop jobsite and love it. I use the tracks saw to break down sheet goods then the tablesaw is so much quicker to square things up without as much room for error as the tracksaw with the rail squares etc, especially for smaller pieces.  I seldom need large panels but can resort to the parallel guides if needed.

Offline Paul G

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Re: Table Saw Purchase
« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2019, 10:48 AM »
As a hobbyist like the OP I struggled with only a track saw for more than a year.  It took way too much time prior to the release of the TSO products to get things square. I ended up with the Sawstop jobsite and love it. I use the tracks saw to break down sheet goods then the tablesaw is so much quicker to square things up without as much room for error as the tracksaw with the rail squares etc, especially for smaller pieces.  I seldom need large panels but can resort to the parallel guides if needed.

I too have a SS Jobsite and really like it for what it is. A decent portable table saw is better than having none at all. But as soon as I have the space I’ll be adding a SS cabinet which is far superior to the jobsite in every way except portability.
+1

Offline mikeyr

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Re: Table Saw Purchase
« Reply #50 on: January 18, 2019, 06:12 PM »
I have a Unisaw and track saw, I find I use the track saw so much I thought of getting rid of my tablesaw, I am quite tight on space in my shop, its 24x24 but has a car I am restoring (1934 Singer), 2 welders, wood lathe, metal lathe, mill, bandsaw and oops out of space to use the table saw.  I break down sheet goods in the backyard and really thought I could live without a table saw.  My last project required me to cut of a lot of pieces 3 1/2" wide by different lengths and what a nightmare it was to do with track and parallel guides because the cut was narrower than the guides, I have both Festool and Woodpecker guides and yeah, I got it to work but I finally broke out my table saw and finished the job.  I had not used the table saw in over 2 years.   I am now thinking of selling the Unisaw for the SawStop Jobsite saw, it would have been good enough for this last job and I think most in the last 2 years that I have done.

Guess I am trying to say, I think a tablesaw is required in a wood shop, but I myself am not sure that you need a big saw if you have a track saw for sheet goods.  I have only had my Unisaw around 35 years, hard to get rid of a old friend like that.
ex-cabinet maker, now I just play with wood

Offline WoodworkTech

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Re: Table Saw Purchase
« Reply #51 on: January 18, 2019, 06:16 PM »
I have a Unisaw and track saw, I find I use the track saw so much I thought of getting rid of my tablesaw, I am quite tight on space in my shop, its 24x24 but has a car I am restoring (1934 Singer), 2 welders, wood lathe, metal lathe, mill, bandsaw and oops out of space to use the table saw.  I break down sheet goods in the backyard and really thought I could live without a table saw.  My last project required me to cut of a lot of pieces 3 1/2" wide by different lengths and what a nightmare it was to do with track and parallel guides because the cut was narrower than the guides, I have both Festool and Woodpecker guides and yeah, I got it to work but I finally broke out my table saw and finished the job.  I had not used the table saw in over 2 years.   I am now thinking of selling the Unisaw for the SawStop Jobsite saw, it would have been good enough for this last job and I think most in the last 2 years that I have done.

Guess I am trying to say, I think a tablesaw is required in a wood shop, but I myself am not sure that you need a big saw if you have a track saw for sheet goods.  I have only had my Unisaw around 35 years, hard to get rid of a old friend like that.

Thanks.  I have thought about the jobsite saw and Kapex combo.  Then saw the price of the jobsite saw and said for a little more can get contractor saw.  Then added up the upgrades of the cast iron wings and ended up looking at the PCS sawstop.  I have no real experience with table saws, and read a lot relies on the fence.  So was hesitant on the jobsite saw because of the fence not being like the T glide construction.
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Offline ChuckM

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Re: Table Saw Purchase
« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2019, 07:58 PM »
You might want to make up your mind before the end of this month as SawStop's prices are going up (by about 15%!) next month. I'd recommend the PCS model with the desired bells and whistles (e.g. 36" or 52" fence, 1.75HP 240V or 3HP, dust overarm & blade guard, and ICS mobile base) without reservation. Best investment for furniture making in my shop ever (the DF500 was the second best).

If the dust collection for Kapex is considered very good, the dust collection for PCS is excellent (99.5%+) in comparison (other than for edge cuts). I no longer wear my mask when using the Kapex, nor do I when cutting on the PCS unless I'm making edge cuts on MDF.

By the way, don't listen to the folks who tell you that a tracksaw system is all you need, unless all you use are sheet goods. Many Festool tracksaw users also own a tablesaw. I find this opinion from TSO an honest one:

"As proud as we are of our TSO tools for tracksaws, we don't believe a tracksaw is the best tool for everything. Narrow stock is easiest on a table saw."

To that, I would easily add cutting polygonal pedestal legs, resawing, finger joints, tenons, dados, cutting circles, grooves, rabbets, etc. 
« Last Edit: January 18, 2019, 08:55 PM by ChuckM »

Offline RKA

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Re: Table Saw Purchase
« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2019, 08:49 PM »
-Raj

Offline Paul G

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Re: Table Saw Purchase
« Reply #54 on: January 19, 2019, 06:07 AM »
Thanks.  I have thought about the jobsite saw and Kapex combo.  Then saw the price of the jobsite saw and said for a little more can get contractor saw.  Then added up the upgrades of the cast iron wings and ended up looking at the PCS sawstop.  I have no real experience with table saws, and read a lot relies on the fence.  So was hesitant on the jobsite saw because of the fence not being like the T glide construction.

Yes, far better fence, flatter top, can use magnetic attachments, more power, more stable, better dust collection, and if you ever see doing some dados the blade height adjustment on the jobsite is a PITA to fine tune.
+1

Offline PaulH99

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Re: Table Saw Purchase
« Reply #55 on: January 19, 2019, 07:18 AM »
I am absolutely a hobby woodworking, but I have made built-ins for my home and am working on kitchen cabinets right now.

I started with an old Ridgid table saw from home depot. It was the second generation model from about 13 years ago that had cast iron EVERYTHING and weighed a ton. Even with the rolling base, moving it around my basement was a pain, and getting sheet good into my basement through the bulkhead was nearly impossible. I'm actually a bit shocked that I still have all my fingers.

Then a couple years ago I started drinking the Festool fruit punch and discovered the TS-55. I absolutely love that saw. I can slide sheet goods out of my vehicle onto my cutting table in the driveway, make a few cuts, and I'm good to go. So the obvious question then is, "What about the table saw?"

My table saw was being used more and more for breaking down solid wood for face frames and the like. My old Ridgid saw was too unwieldily for the space I'm now using, so I needed something smaller. I sold it to someone local who was starting up a workshop in their garage and bought a DeWalt 7491RS. Does it have all the safety features of the SawStop? No. Is it 1/3 the price, 1/2 the weight, and folds up against a wall? Yes! Also the rack-and-pinion fence is insanely easy to use and reliable.

You have to ask yourself what you're going to use the saw for. Moving full sheets of plywood or MDF around, which is upwards of 100 pounds, with no easy way to balance it is a recipe for disaster. From my experience, building infeed and outfeed tables or buying guides like the JessEm is just throwing more money at the problem. Those solutions don't fully address the accuracy and safety concerns. By the time you're done doing all that, you could have spent the same money on something like the DeWalt and bought a TS-55 (or the Makita equivalent). You'll have the best of both worlds: An accurate table saw for ripping and crosscutting solid wood and a track saw for sheet goods.
-Paul
CT 26 • DF 500 • ETS 125 • KS 120 • OF 1400 • PS 420 • RO 125 • TS 55 R

Offline neilc

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Re: Table Saw Purchase
« Reply #56 on: January 19, 2019, 10:15 PM »
+1 on the Dewalt 7491RS.  I looked hard at the SawStop but it was heavy, expensive and not as easy to use.

I have the Dewalt on my farm, my son has one and my son-in-law has one.  We all really like them.
It's a great saw with accuracy, very portable and stores easily when not needed.  I love the fence adjustment.
If you have a track saw, the Dewalt is a nice compliment to it for ripping smaller pieces, face frames or other work with small solid wood work.
Add a cross-cut sled or an Incra miter gauge and it's really accurate for miters or cross cuts as well.  The miter gauge that comes with is is marginal at best.I made a suction adapter box out of baltic birch ply for it that allows you to connect a vac into the saw and split off for the overarm collection really easily.That helps a lot for improving dust collection.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 10:20 PM by neilc »

Offline ctvader

  • Posts: 61
Re: Table Saw Purchase
« Reply #57 on: January 20, 2019, 09:42 AM »
My rational for buying the contractor saw was I could grow into it and buy a PCS if/when needed.  Since i’m a hobbyist, I couldn’t justify the increased of PCS, including delivery charge (I was able to fit the contractor saw in my wife’s car) - this saved me ~$1,000.  I can upgrade the contract saw to the better fence in the future plus 1 cast iron wing.  With the TS-55 and TSO GRS-16, the contractor saw should be OK for quite a while.  My only regret is I didn’t get the T-Glide fence at purchase but live & learn.  If I upgrade the fence, it will be the T-Glide or INCRA’s TS-LS.