Author Topic: What is your preferred countersink bit  (Read 5338 times)

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Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6284
Re: What is your preferred countersink bit
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2018, 12:18 PM »
A salesman’s briefcase was supposed to accidentally open and the mouths fall out and commence chattering, but stop in a certain number of seconds.

That's funny...chattering mouths & fluttering hearts must have been an 80's thing.  [tongue]  I remember around the same time that fluttering wind up hearts were being sold. You'd wind one up, hold onto it with both hands and then carefully place it in a specially sized box that prevented any heart movement until the box was opened at which time the heart would "beat".  HA! indeed!

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Online Bob D.

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Re: What is your preferred countersink bit
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2018, 08:33 AM »
MP35N sounds similar to Inconel (nickel-chromium) or Monel (nickel-copper) super stainless steels. All are expensive. Last job I used Monel on we were replacing all the bolting (over three hundred  1-1/4" x 9" HHCS with nuts and washers) in a large pump casing and it cost more than $120k for one set of bolts. The old bolting was Monel and still in decent shape after 40+ years in salt water but to be safe they wanted to replace it all to minimize the chance of any failures which could result in a catastrophic failure of the pump so $120k was seen as cheap insurance.
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It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Online RKA

  • Posts: 1667
Re: What is your preferred countersink bit
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2019, 11:56 AM »
@Cheese I had to revive this thread to ask a question.  In the photo @rvieceli posted, the countersink was clean and even all the way around.  Is this only possible if you do this in a drill press or is there a technique to do this with a hand drill without resorting to the versions with the pilot that was posted? 

I picked up the Keo bit and tried it on a few test holes and quickly learned doing it by hand resulted in a 50/50 split between horribly uneven countersinks and slightly uneven countersinks.  Even if I'm batching out holes on a drill press, I'm drilling the pilot holes first, then switch to the countersink and go back to do the countersinks.  Unless I'm able to set up stop blocks and a fence to put the work piece precisely where it was when I drilled the pilot, odds are the countersink will be off slightly.  Any tips?
-Raj

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6284
Re: What is your preferred countersink bit
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2019, 12:29 PM »
In the photo @rvieceli posted, the countersink was clean and even all the way around.  Is this only possible if you do this in a drill press or is there a technique to do this with a hand drill without resorting to the versions with the pilot that was posted? 

I picked up the Keo bit and tried it on a few test holes and quickly learned doing it by hand resulted in a 50/50 split between horribly uneven countersinks and slightly uneven countersinks.  Even if I'm batching out holes on a drill press, I'm drilling the pilot holes first, then switch to the countersink and go back to do the countersinks.  Unless I'm able to set up stop blocks and a fence to put the work piece precisely where it was when I drilled the pilot, odds are the countersink will be off slightly.  Any tips?

Unfortunately, the drill press is the magic item in this situation.  [smile]

I try to use the drill press any time decorative countersinking needs to be done. It can be done by hand, and I'll show you an example, but it is tedious because it's tough to hold the drill exactly perpendicular to the surface. Anything other than 90º to the surface will get you a wonky looking countersink.

Another plus with the drill press is that if you set the depth limit, every countersink will be the same diameter, nice and uniform.

I'm a firm believer in using the Woodpeckers fence with flip stops on the drill press. That way you've nested every piece in the same location and you can remove and replace them without losing the center datum line. If you get into the habit of doing that, it becomes 2nd nature.

At times I thought I needed only 2 tool changes but then when I started the project, I realized I actually needed 3 or 4 tool changes. That's not a problem if you've used stop blocks or flip stops. Just make sure to mark each piece so you know which sides were registered against the stops. 

Here's a long chunk of walnut that I couldn't fit on the drill press. These countersinks were all done by hand. It was not fun but it's doable.


Offline rvieceli

  • Posts: 1036
Re: What is your preferred countersink bit
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2019, 12:52 PM »
@RKA

raj like Cheese said you really need to use the drill press to get the best looking results. Has to be straight or it gets funky.

That particular piece in the shot  is a cylinder socket head cap screw in a chamfered coounterbored hole. It's a three step process.

Drill the through hole.

Counterbore the clearance for the screw head to depth.

Chamfer the edges with an 82 degree counter sink to depth.

Rinse and repeat  [big grin]

All these operations are with the work piece clamped and immobile. Only changing the tooling. Indexing the couterbore depth and the chamfer depth off the surface. I've got a physical depth stop on my press so I use gauge blocks to set the depth.

I'm usually working with irregularly shaped work pieces (live edge) so they don't always index accurately off a fence. I'm generally mating a piece to a metal base. So I'll use a transfer punch to mark the hole centers then drill the through hole. Flip the work piece over because the counterbore needs to be on the other side. I will then use the drill bit as an index pin to get the work piece in the correct alignment and then go through the steps above.

Ron

Offline TinyShop

  • Posts: 344
Re: What is your preferred countersink bit
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2019, 12:53 PM »
I've been really pleased with Snappy's depth stop countersink (w/Centrotec shank I might add):

https://www.snappytools.com/product/43032-premium-rotating-depth-stop

The results are uniform/identical thanks to the depth stop.

« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 02:45 PM by TinyShop »
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Online RKA

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Re: What is your preferred countersink bit
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2019, 02:15 PM »
Thanks @Cheese and @rvieceli !  I didn't realize the issue was that I had skewed the bit from vertical causing the problem.  I thought the bit was walking off center somehow (it looked circular but off center).  I do have a fence with multiple flip stops, but at only 3ft long, sometimes you have to find another way.  The drill being used as an index is great...unless you don't have a keyless chuck, then you spend your afternoon tightening and loosening that chuck (Cheese, don't start on that Albrecht chuck, that's a different rabbit hole for a different day =) ).

The sad part is, all the work you put into those nicely countersunk screws is appreciated by only a few.  I can imagine going through that 3 step process on something only to have my wife ask why didn't I just use the nailer  [eek].  ---> Because I wanted it to look pretty!!!  (that's when I get the shoulder shrug)
-Raj

Offline Cheese

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Re: What is your preferred countersink bit
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2019, 02:34 PM »
The sad part is, all the work you put into those nicely countersunk screws is appreciated by only a few.

The truth be told Raj...it's only appreciated by an audience of one.  [huh]  But it certainly enhances my skill sets so that's what I really enjoy...learning and doing better work. [smile]

There's no better justification for a keyless chuck than when needing multiple tool changes for producing a single feature. [poke]


Hey Ron @rvieceli , that's an interesting counterbore. Do you know who manufactures it?

« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 02:37 PM by Cheese »

Offline rvieceli

  • Posts: 1036
Re: What is your preferred countersink bit
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2019, 03:34 PM »
@Cheese It's just a generic 2 flute HSS solid pilot counterbore. Pretty sure I got it from Enco before MSC made them go away [sad]

it is a 1/4 inch pilot 13/32 counterbore. I think it was branded Qualtech when I bought it but in reality not even the packaging had a brand name on it.

I got that one, one for 5/16 shcs and 3/8 shcs. I just use it for wood would probably upgrade to something US made for metal.

I think Global Industrial and probably others import them now.

https://www.globalindustrial.com/p/metalworking-tools/metalworking-counterbores/fillister-head-counterbores/hss-2-flute-counterbore-pilot-for-fillister-hd-screw-1-4-inch-pilot-dia-x-13-32-inch-d-3-5-8-inch-oal

Ron


Offline rst

  • Posts: 2206
Re: What is your preferred countersink bit
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2019, 03:41 PM »
In regard to wandering countersinks, there are piloted versions available for the Weldon style sinks.  I know have at least three different sizes but so not remember where I bought them from.

Offline hdv

  • Posts: 65
Re: What is your preferred countersink bit
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2019, 04:19 PM »
Just as some of the posters above I find it somewhat hard to keep the drill straight when I can't use a drill press. Here's a trick I learned from my mentor long ago that helps me. Put a straight rod in a vise. Check with a level that it is perfectly vertical. Then put the drill on the rod and tighten the chuck. After that glue a bullseye level on the backside of the body and make sure it is level. Let it dry like that. Once done you can use the level to make sure you are drilling vertically.

HTH

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6284
Re: What is your preferred countersink bit
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2019, 05:28 PM »
It's just a generic 2 flute HSS solid pilot counterbore. Pretty sure I got it from Enco before MSC made them go away [sad]


My thoughts exactly. Although MSC has surprised me and has turned out to be better than I originally thought.  [smile]

Online RKA

  • Posts: 1667
Re: What is your preferred countersink bit
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2019, 05:30 PM »
In regard to wandering countersinks, there are piloted versions available for the Weldon style sinks.  I know have at least three different sizes but so not remember where I bought them from.

Yeah, I saw that in your post on the first page of the thread.  Unfortunately I didn't fully appreciate it's utility until I bought and tried to use the Keo countersinks and now...I do!   [doh]
-Raj

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6284
Re: What is your preferred countersink bit
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2019, 05:44 PM »
I’ve never needed one or have actually used a piloted c’sk but with this discussion unfolding, that may indeed be the answer to maintaining a neat appearing c’sk using a hand drill.  [smile]

Would certainly be worth a try.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4112
Re: What is your preferred countersink bit
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2019, 11:55 PM »
I’ve never needed one or have actually used a piloted c’sk but with this discussion unfolding, that may indeed be the answer to maintaining a neat appearing c’sk using a hand drill.  [smile]

Would certainly be worth a try.

The pilots are sized for machine screws, so too big for the pilot hole you’d drill for a wood screw.

Offline rst

  • Posts: 2206
Re: What is your preferred countersink bit
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2019, 04:06 PM »
The pilot does not need to be full depth of the screw, only enough to guide the initial countersink.  My smallest piloted sink only has 3/16" deep pilot.  I've never bothered to use mine on wood, mostly for metal work. 

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: What is your preferred countersink bit
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2019, 04:59 PM »
It’s the diameter of the pilot on metal working piloted countersink bits that is too big. You’d have to drill a second larger diameter but shallow pilot hole to use the cs bit in wood.

My favorite is the Festool drilling and countersinking bit with integral depth stop. Next favorite is the Amana bit with depth stop but it’s a relative beast compared to the Festool.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6284
Re: What is your preferred countersink bit
« Reply #47 on: February 16, 2019, 12:21 AM »
It’s the diameter of the pilot on metal working piloted countersink bits that is too big. You’d have to drill a second larger diameter but shallow pilot hole to use the c'sk bit in wood.

Just thinking this whole hand held drill + countersink thing through, if you're up against the boards because you can't use a drill press and you don't own a drill stand, I still think this Weldon piloted zero degree c'sk may be the answer. It may not be as slick as a drill press but it could solve a problem for a lot of people.

Years ago I produced a cheat sheet to make my life easier and the "general" dimensions I've gathered over the years for both square drive and Torx drive wood screws are:
#8...max diameter .150"-.155"...so I'll use a 5/32" clearance drill
#9...max diameter .170"-.175"...so I'll use a 3/16" clearance drill
#10...max diameter .190"-.195"...so I'll use a 13/64" clearance drill
1/4"...max diameter .235"-.240"...so I'll use a 1/4" clearance drill

The Weldon CS8-1 piloted c'sk will produce up to a 33/64" diameter c'sk, so it's useable for any of the above mentioned sized screws. And while the pilot diameter is 1/4" diameter, the depth of the pilot is only 5/32".

A 1/4" diameter thru hole isn't that much larger than a .155" max diameter especially when you consider that the #8 FH screw will be centered by the countersink and not the thru diameter. Unless we're building wooden boats it really doesn't make much difference especially if it's your only option. [smile]

I'm ordering one to try it out.