Best Tablesaw for Festoolians

[Dan Clark]

Over the last year, I've noticed many "discussions" (i.e., arguments) about tablesaws in other woodworking forums.    In most woodworking forums, the tablesaw is the most fundamental of all woodworking tools.  I.e., you can NOT do woodworking without a table saw.  Just ask any "true" woodworker!  :  OTOH...

Many Festoolians (including me) don't even own one.  Most cuts that woodworkers do on a table saw can easily be done with some pink foam or an MFT plus a Festool rail plus a TS55.  No problem!  Well, almost... 

Many Festoolians will still admit that for small, repeated cuts, a tablesaw is the best tool.    Then, a few weeks ago, Matthew made an interesting post about his interest in a contractor saw. 

This got me thinking, "IF you had a TS55 + rails + MFT or pink foam so you could take care of the big stuff or break down sheet goods, what kind of tablesaw would you buy?  Cabinet saw?  Maybe a contractor saw?  Something else? 

I'd like to hear from you.  What is your opinion?  What would you recommend (or buy)?

Regards,

Dan.

 

[Bob Marino]

Dan,

My shop is very small. I had a Dewalt 746 hybrid saw with a 52" fence and small sliding table.  When I did my shop over, I sold it and use the Festool system and a bandsaw. But if I were to consider a ts, it would be one of the small portable units from either Dewalt or Bosch.

Bobunits

 

[Lou Miller]

Dan, there are too many ways to look at this. The answer really depends on you, the work you do, and the space you have. The correct answer would be different for everyone. In my shop, I have a 5HP cabinet saw with a 52" fence. For on site work, I use a Rigid TS2400. Both saws are excelent for what they are. The cabinet saw is certainly the better saw by a mile and a half, but I can't pack it up and throw it in the back of the truck at 6AM though. Well, technically I could, but that would be pretty foolish.

If you need portability, its really tough to beat either the Rigid or Bosch tablesaws. The Dewalt gets a lot of good reviews, but I absolutely HATE the fence that comes with them. I can't stand Home Depot and I have the hardest time recommending a product they sell, but the Rigid saw is an excellent performer and it can be a great value as well (depending on the actual selling price).

 

[Dan Clark]

Bob, Lou,

Thanks.   "What you do with it..." is one of the key issues.  I don't want to run out and buy something just because it's fascinating.  That said...

I'm fascinated with the new Bosch 4100.  It looks like it has better safety features and portability.  I posted that the price was list price is $679 including the digital fence and portable stand.  Size, portability and stand would be critical for me. 

But I think the right mix is critical.   Traditional woodworkers seem to insist on "big iron".   Others seem to say, I don't need that stuff.  I'm trying to find the right mix.   For me, the right mix might include my festool stuff plus a band saw, a router table, a drill press, and maybe a small table saw.   But I'm still searching...

Another issue is "when".   For me, one of the critical issues for me is hitting the "wall" where using my Festool stuff becomes a hassle.  When I hit that wall, then I'll move on this.  But for right now, I want to understand what other people think and what they are doing.   

Many thanks for the feedback.

Regards,

Dan.

 

[clintholeman]

Dan-

I'm not sure I agree with your statement that for small repeated cuts a TS would work best.  It is precisely that kind of cut that the MFT, with stop(s), guide rail and saw do really well.

We may have become habituated to the TS, but an awful lot of really fine furniture and cabinetry was made before they came into being and still are.

I do agree with Lou [again, geez  ;D] that everyone will have a different answer depending on how they work.  I, for one, can't imagine why I would want one, nor why anyone would really need one.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Dan-

I'm not sure I agree with your statement that for small repeated cuts a TS would work best.  It is precisely that kind of cut that the MFT, with stop(s), guide rail and saw do really well.

But for long, narrow, repeated cuts the table saw is the tool.

 

[Dan Clark]

I'm not sure I agree with your statement that for small repeated cuts a TS would work best.  It is precisely that kind of cut that the MFT, with stop(s), guide rail and saw do really well.
...

Clint,

I'm just repeating common "wisdom" and trying to keep my options open. I don't want to get into the trap of viewing everything as a nail when the only tool I have is a hammer.   

So far, I've been able to solve almost every problem with the tools I have.  And, I don't have a tablesaw, band saw, jointer, router table or drill press. 

I bought a lunchbox thickness plainer and am glad that I did.  I'm going to build a face jointing sled to see if I can get acceptable face jointing results from my thickness planer.   I'm trying different alternatives to see if can edge joint what I want with my TS55, my Festool hand planer and/or maybe a router table.   I've always been an out-of-the-box thinker.   Sometimes it's worked; sometimes not.  But I don't mind taking the risk. 

It sounds like you've found your balance without many of the traditional, "gotta-have" tools.   Lou's found his balance.   I hope to find my balance too.   That's another slippery slope.   

Dan.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Dan,
Good topic!

I've often said that with the Festool system, I don't need a full-size table saw.  All my crosscutting is done on the MFT; all my ripping of full sheets (or half sheets) of plywood are done with the TS55 and guide rails.

In my shop (other people might have a different story) I have no need for a contractor saw, and certainly do not need a hybrid or cabinet saw.  All I need is a bench-top saw, and for me the choice was the Ridgid TS2400.  It has an excellent fence and over all high quality design.

I have a very small shop.  One of my original attractions to the Festool system, besides quality, was how well it fits into a limited space.  Being able to use a bench-top table saw helps make the best use of my shop space.

By the way, this post has inspired me to post my review of the Ridgid TS2400.

Matthew

 

[brandon.nickel]

I am currently borrowing a friend's Jet contractor-style saw.  I "need" it because of the cabinetry work I've been doing lately.  My longest guide rail is 2 x 1400mm (110"), so I can't rip 10' boards into 2" widths using my TS55.  Ok, I suppose I could if I wanted to move the rail and hope I got a clean edge on the second plunge.  Regardless, it'd be a PITA. 

Prior to my Festool splurge a couple of years ago I was seriously considering a SawStop (insert any other quality cabinet saw here).  Now I don't feel that I need a saw with the massive crosscut capability because panel ripping and crosscuts are what Festool excels at.  What I really want now is a smaller saw that has a cabinet-saw length rip-fence, but in a narrower frame. 

I've looked at the current crop of contractors saws, but they seem to really cut corners on the rip fences to meet their price targets.    I'm waiting for the SawStop contractor's saw to come out so I can see if it's got the same level of quality as the cabinet saw.  Anyone have any suggestions on a saw that does what I'm looking for?  I think it's what this topic is aimed at.

Oh, I almost forgot.  I should mention that my friend's Jet contractor saw is the second one we've put together now.  With the first one, the blade was so badly out of square with the table that I couldn't even loosen the trunnion to adjust it back.  Even augering out the mounting holes didn't get me enough range.  So, we exchanged it for a new one.  On the new one, the fence was so badly curved that you couldn't make a straight rip cut.  IAt the time I checked it with a straightedge, but I can't remember how far it was out.  I'd estimate it was about 1/8" bowed away from the blade in the center of the fence.  Finally, the 3rd fence and adjusting the table solved the problem.  I'd never buy a Jet product after this experience.  Is it that hard to sell a saw with a square blade and a straight fence?

 

[Loren Hedahl]

Prior to Festool I had large hinged side and rear table extensions on my contractor saw.  I even modified (cut) the fence rails so they would swing with the right table extension.

This worked pretty good except for shop space required and dust control.  It soon became apparent that the only season I could cut sheet materials was in summer when I could roll the saw out of my shop into the drive, unless I wanted to spend hours each time cleaning the shop.

Enter Festool TS55, MFT, several rails and VAC.  Now the shop made contractor saw extensions are gone, the fence rail is cut down to the width of the cast iron top and I have a rip width of only 7 - 8 inches.  Anything larger is Festool territory.

I would get rid of the contractor saw if I could conveniently rip long moldings, cut 2 x 4's into 1 x 4's when the stack of 1 x 4's at the local Home Depot is kindling quality, etc.

I really appreciate and respect fellows like Clint that make a living (hopefully financially rewarding) using a minimum of tools.  Their work almost always represents a thoughtful character beyond the standard dimensioned stuff available everywhere you might look.  It seems like the lack of heavy metal tooling frees them to design outside straight lines and boxes.

Loren

 

[dnrdhs77]

Since you all have Festool machines, that would suggest that you like well engineered, high quality machines.  To that end then I'd expect that you would want the same in your table saws, band saws, jointers, etc.

I have a sliding table saw by a company called Felder, and I think that anyone who likes Festool would appreciate the quality and engineering that Felder puts into their equipment.

Also have one of Felder's 16" Jointer/Planer machines that is wonderful

I feel that the comparisons between a Delta, Jet, General, etc, table saw and Felder equipment is similar to Festool and DeWalt, Bosch, PC, etc.  In other words, there isn't much of a comparison...

Thanks,
dnrdhs77

 

[Jesse Cloud]

Wow - I can't imagine doing without my tablesaw!  What do you guys use for an assembly table when your MFT is in use? :

BTW, that picture of me planing the tabletop... the tabletop is sitting on top of the tablesaw and outfeed table. 8)

 

[MarkF]

I have an old Unisaw and use it more for it's expanse of horizontal worktop to cut larger pieces of sheetgoods with my TS55 and generally keeping junk on than I use it's sawing function.  I do use it for dados, ripping multiple repeat cuts of sheet goods, cutting thick stock and any angled through cut.  If I had to do it over here are the things I would consider before the saw itself:

The fence...I really like the Biesemeyer/Bies. clones but others are available which would work well.  Try it befere you buy it if you can.  These can be adapted to most saws.  You may need to drill/tap some hole in the side of the tablesaw top or rearrange the holes in the mounting rails.

Blade Guard/Splitter...I have the Biesemeyer blade guard and it is excellent. It has some scars and I don't so I know it works.  I have recently added the Shorty splitter and ratchet handle from here:http://www.leestyron.com/sharksplitter.php  It goes on and comes off in about 5 seconds and it's short side doesn't get into the way of most dado cuts so no excuse.  If I did it over I would mount the blade guard to the ceiling because I don't plan to move the saw.

Dust collection...the newer cabinet/hybrid saws are designed to channel sawdust and chips to a connection.    Contractor saws are not outfitted as well for dust collection.  Mine just pile up on the floor inside the cabinet and have to be helped along to the dust chute.  The blade guard should also be connected to dust collection as most of the fine stuff comes from above the cut...especially when ripping.

On/Off switch...get/make/adapt one with a big stop button/plate/bar/etc you can bump with your knee.

So for me it's not the saw as much as it's the sum of the parts all of which can be added to any saw. 

 

[Matthew Schenker]

I have a sliding table saw by a company called Felder, and I think that anyone who likes Festool would appreciate the quality and engineering that Felder puts into their equipment.

I can see your point about quality.  However, I have a small shop, with no room for a full-size table saw or jointer.  That is one of the reasons I made the decision to start buying Festool tools.
Matthew

 

[Joe Jensen]

I've used 4 different table saws extensively over the past 30 years.
1) my dad had a 1940s Sears contractors saw with webbed wings and a horrible fence.  I built cabinets and custom speakers in HS and college.  I probably sold $15K of cabinets over 4 years. Basement shop.  Hated that saw.
2) after college I bought a used Unisaw 3HP, 1PH.  Awesome saw, used it for 6 years.  But, as soon as I saw a left tilt Powermatic 66 at the tool store I had to change.  I was using a fair bit of veneered sheet goods and the occastional need to miter the end of a veneered sheet was enough to make me change.  2/3rds of a 3 car garage.
3) Bought the PM66 in 1990.  Loved it.  I had the PM66, a Powermatic model 26 shaper, extensions, and another 20" wide piece of Powermatic cast iron top to make a 96" wide solid cast iron top.  I had a custom biesemeyer fence system that let me rip over 70" wide.  Loved the saw until I saw a SawStop in person.
4) I had a close friend see the SawStop with a top removed at the local tool store.  He told me I had to go see it.  I stopped a couple of weeks later with my wife and the saw was amazingly well constructed.  My wife insisted that I guy the saw for the safety feature.  I bought a 5HP 1PH Sawstop with their biesemeyer clone. and I'm very happy.  I ended up connecting it to my shaper the way the PM66 was but I made the setup a little narrower as I never used the full width rip.  I just have 52" wide rip now and the total cast iron is 84".

I bought the Festool TS75 last year to make breaking down sheet goods easier.  I still can't imagine building cabinets with only the Festool, but if truely forced I would probably do that...joe

 

[Eli]

At the beginning of the year, we decided to move to AU from CA. This meant selling off all my power tools and making new choices. We've moved into a rental house with a garage, which means at least once I'll be moving everything. I'm a tradesman, and had a couple jobs already lined up which were site specific. When you combine all these things, the choices I had to make for the circumstances seemed to point me away from big machines. I wanted to be movable, compact, relatively light, and accurate in workmanship. With the exceptions of lunchbox planer, drill press, and Band saw, every other choice is Festool. The fact that the MFT can be used for so many things, AND folded up, made it an obvious centerpiece. When the Kapex arrives (in kit) it will have an 800 table with it. I think this'll be enough of an assembly surface that I won't need a tablesaw.....

Incidentally, for handplaning and sanding, I'm thinking about putting a d-ring plate into the garage floor and sending a turnbuckle up to an eye bolt in both end extrusions to prevent racking. Anybody tried triangulation like this?

 

[Mike_Chrest]

Dan,
  I need my tools to be portable (up and down stairs) so when Amazon had the Dewalt 754 on sale with free shipping I couldn't resist ( I got it for $288, wait for the next sale).
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...TF8&coliid=I2B1SYNVLFQRJK&colid=10KQJ73XWBQOX

My back is very happy now ;D. I recently needed to shingle the sides of a structure only accessible by ladder. This thing is so light I could carry it with one hand up a 12' ladder and feel safe.

The dust port fits the big Festool/ShopVac hose (the Makita port is too small). The fence is beautiful, dead accurate and parallel. Magnified hairline index (no more tape measure).

Next purchase is a Rousseau table (it won't fit my old table :'()

I've heard great reviews on the Ridgid and Bosch (you need the stand to roll these "portables") but if you want light weight get a Dewalt.

Mike

 

[Eli]

I loved that saw Mike. Had it for four years. Love the fence on it.

 

[Tinker]

I have the ATF 55 (soon to upgrade to TS 55) OF 1000 & 1400, RO 150. LS 130, Deltex 93, HL 850, Old C12 and a whole pile of Guide rails several lengths.

i have moved my old Craftsman contractors TS out to the barn until i have decided whether or not a table saw is really needed.  with the recent acquisition of the MFS 400, it has become less obvious that i would need a table saw.  if I do bring one back in, it will either be the old craftsman with cut off rails or a portable such as Bosch or DW.

My non Festool toys are two bandsaws (one inherrited), a couple of router tables (sears portable and home made) a Milwaukee router and a couple of PC's, one with router raising attachment.  The router i use the most is my DW 625 mounted on top of my WoodRat. I wood not lose that one for anything.  An old bench type drill press a DW 733 planer and a bench type combo belt/disc sander that almost never gets used.

Of all the toys I need the very least, I would say the bench sander.  that is in the way of everything except dust, which it retains enough that no new dust can reach it  :-\

the bandsaws are an old Reliant 16" with very poor power.  i am thinking of putting a larger motor on it so i can do faster resawing.  I. thinking of removing the 1-1/2 hp motor from my craftsman TS and mounting on the reliant.  That is supposedly a 1-1/2 hp, but I just do not think they used the same sized horses as the craftsman horses.  The other is an old (over 50 yr old) 9" Delta i got from my father.  I keep a 1/4" blade on that and a 1/2" on the larger BS.  I would like a larger BS to use a 3/4" blade for resawing, but until Grizzley came out with their newest 14", none of those were not short enough of headroom and wide enough of blade for my shop. 

i would not want to be without either of the bandsaws, or the drill press

Since getting the MFS 400, I am realizing a whole lot more i can do more efficiently with the ATF and routers than i could before.  i am less inclined to be looking over table saws or my old craftsman that ever before. 

I have just gotten an extra swiss cheese top for my MFT 800 that i am going to cut out for my router raiser and get other plates the same size to mount my jigsaw and another router in.  I will then eliminate my other router tables.

Tinker

 

[Michael Kellough]

...the bandsaws are an old Reliant 16" with very poor power.  i am thinking of putting a larger motor on it so i can do faster resawing.  I. thinking of removing the 1-1/2 hp motor from my craftsman TS and mounting on the reliant.  That is supposedly a 1-1/2 hp, but I just do not think they used the same sized horses as the craftsman horses.

Tinker

Compare the AMPS rather than the "horses". More importantly, check the RPMs. (I think) the band saw needs a 1725 rpm motor and the TS probably has a motor than spins about twice as fast.