Cabinet Box Construction

[dlu]

I'm planning a relatively large set of drawers for our pantry. The cases will be frameless and about 30" deep (725 mm from wall to the cabinet faces if you're counting). The whole assembly will span between two walls – so the side panels won't be seen unless you're looking at the inside with the drawers out. I've been using maple Europly for the other cabinets I've built for our house, but the price has jumped quite a bit since I bought the wood for the last set of cabinets... Between that and the depth of these cabinets I've started rethinking how I'd build them. I've got two ideas that I'd appreciate feedback on:

Idea 1: build the cabinets with full side panels, but use a less expensive plywood for most of the depth of the cases. I'm thinking I could use Dominos and glue up side panels from a 600 mm strip of "the cheap stuff" (maybe AraucoPly) and a 125 mm strip of Europly.

Idea 2: build up the side panels from strips, kind of like a rail-and-stile door. The strips would be about 100 mm wide and run only where the drawer slides (Blum Movento) go.

If I'm doing my math right, I think I'd be able to cut the cost of the cases by about a third compared to using solid Europly sides.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

You might be trading dollars for time? If that's acceptable, go for it.
How much difference is there per sheet?
Another alternative might be to go with thinner material?
You didn't say, but I assume 3/4" ply? How much could you save dropping to 1/2"
or maybe combine them into pairs, thus eliminating one side. The center partition is a shared side for each half.

 

[tjbnwi]

Look into prefinished birch ply.

Tom

 

[Packard]

For utility cabinet boxes, I have had good results with melamine clad particle board.

Adjustments in construction (compared to plywood) are recommended. I’m a dowel-guy and I use far more dowels with particle board (8mm dowels 32mm on center) than with plywood (8mm dowels 64mm on center).

It makes for a clean looking cabinet, but not a stylish looking one. OK for cabinets hidden behind doors. In my case, I made storage cabinets for my mom’s needle work studio. The melamine finish is great for locations that might get ink or paint on the surfaces.

Melamine clad particle board is not ideal for all applications, but with an adjustment in joinery, and the added structure that being wall-mounted offers, a good value and a significant time saver.

I would note that I have had issues with the plastic edgebanding coming loose. I generally use a contrasting wood veneer edgebanding and stain and apply a clear finish to the edgebanding only. The wood edgebanding has proven very durable.

 

[P_K]

I'm planning a relatively large set of drawers for our pantry. The cases will be frameless and about 30" deep (725 mm from wall to the cabinet faces if you're counting). The whole assembly will span between two walls – so the side panels won't be seen unless you're looking at the inside with the drawers out. I've been using maple Europly for the other cabinets I've built for our house, but the price has jumped quite a bit since I bought the wood for the last set of cabinets... Between that and the depth of these cabinets I've started rethinking how I'd build them. I've got two ideas that I'd appreciate feedback on:

Idea 1: build the cabinets with full side panels, but use a less expensive plywood for most of the depth of the cases. I'm thinking I could use Dominos and glue up side panels from a 600 mm strip of "the cheap stuff" (maybe AraucoPly) and a 125 mm strip of Europly.

Idea 2: build up the side panels from strips, kind of like a rail-and-stile door. The strips would be about 100 mm wide and run only where the drawer slides (Blum Movento) go.

If I'm doing my math right, I think I'd be able to cut the cost of the cases by about a third compared to using solid Europly sides.

Standard 24" D x 30 1/2" H base kitchen cabinets fabricated from 3/4" melamine-clad particleboard would be the most cost-effective route. If you're set on using plywood and aren't concerned with appearances, I'd recommend the poplar material from Colombia.

 

[dlu]

Look into prefinished birch ply.

Tom

I've been using the Europly without edge banding, and I'd like to continue that detail in the rest of the cabinets. Do you know off hand if the prefinished birch has "baltic birch nature?" The 3/4" Europly has 15 plies. I don't think it has to be that many, but I'd like something that gives me the same feel.

 

[dlu]

Standard 24" D x 30 1/2" H base kitchen cabinets fabricated from 3/4" melamine-clad particleboard would be the most cost-effective route. If you're set on using plywood and aren't concerned with appearances, I'd recommend the poplar material from Colombia.

Alas, I'm both concerned about appearances -- I really like the "baltic birch" look -- and we're two bathrooms into the project of redoing our mishmash of '60s vintage cabinets and poorly installed Home Depot particle board cabinets for the '80s. Europly was quite a bit less expensive when we started building the new cabinets & it was easier to get shop grade panels back then too.

Also, I need deeper cabinets (about 29") and they will be pretty heavily (about 100#/drawer) loaded. So I'm looking to find a way to use Europly where it will be visible, and something less expensive for the rest of the structure.

 

[tjbnwi]

I've been using the Europly without edge banding, and I'd like to continue that detail in the rest of the cabinets. Do you know off hand if the prefinished birch has "baltic birch nature?" The 3/4" Europly has 15 plies. I don't think it has to be that many, but I'd like something that gives me the same feel.

View attachment 377848

You mentioned the sides will not be seen unless the drawers are removed, I don’t think it is a noticeable difference.

I’ll look tomorrow and take some pics of the two products. I do know the core of the birch ply we get is very nice (7 ply maybe?).

Tom

 

[Crazyraceguy]

The 29" depth is going to put a hurt on your yield. A few more details (and closer reading of the initial post) has me thinking another way. I wasn't thinking about exposed edges and inset drawer fronts.
Since you said before that the ends were not exposed; You could solve two problems at the same time.
Apply a 6" wide band of the Euro ply that matches your other cabinets, to a side slab of the cheaper ply. Cut these just under 24" wide and you can get 2 strips per sheet. You get the yield back under control and use a lot less of the good stuff too. The really only works with drawer stacks though. You won't notice the 6" strips, because the drawer boxes cover the sides. You can get 6 sides per sheet this way.

I think Tom is right. The Prefinished stuff is 7 ply? Well, really 5 thicker ones and the thinner face veneers.
I think it's Poplar core, where as the Birch multiply is all Birch and equal thickness

 

[dlu]

You mentioned the sides will not be seen unless the drawers are removed, I don’t think it is a noticeable difference.

I’ll look tomorrow and take some pics of the two products. I do know the core of the birch ply we get is very nice (7 ply maybe?).

Tom

That's right, the sides won't be seen, but the edges will be. The prefinished birch might be really nice for the drawers if there aren't too many voids.

 

[tjbnwi]

That's right, the sides won't be seen, but the edges will be. The prefinished birch might be really nice for the drawers if there aren't too many voids.

Until I expanded your picture, I did not realize you were leaving exposed edges.

We cut and dovetailed about 50 drawers on the CNC just to see how it would go. Not a one had a void at the edges.

You can see what the plies and finish look like in these couple of pictures.





We did edge band the tops of these drawers, if we do plywood drawers again (our normal is hard maple drawer boxes) we will not be doing edge banding, just a slight round over.

The one with the red label on the floor is going in the dumpster, there is something just not right about it, I can’t figure out what but the new drawer works perfectly.

Tom

 

[P_K]

Alas, I'm both concerned about appearances -- I really like the "baltic birch" look -- and we're two bathrooms into the project of redoing our mishmash of '60s vintage cabinets and poorly installed Home Depot particle board cabinets for the '80s. Europly was quite a bit less expensive when we started building the new cabinets & it was easier to get shop grade panels back then too.

Also, I need deeper cabinets (about 29") and they will be pretty heavily (about 100#/drawer) loaded. So I'm looking to find a way to use Europly where it will be visible, and something less expensive for the rest of the structure.

No reason why you can't do melamine boxes with full-overlay BB fronts and drawers, would probably look pretty sharp. Tape all of the forward-facing visible edges with birch if you want to crank it up to 11.

As CRG mentioned, 29" deep boxes are going to cut pretty badly into your yield per 4'x8' sheet. You're going to end up with a lot of waste.

 

[dlu]

No reason why you can't do melamine boxes with full-overlay BB fronts and drawers, would probably look pretty sharp. Tape all of the forward-facing visible edges with birch if you want to crank it up to 11.

As CRG mentioned, 29" deep boxes are going to cut pretty badly into your yield per 4'x8' sheet. You're going to end up with a lot of waste.

That's why I was looking for another plan. CRG's idea (wide Europly edge bands) seems like a nice straight forward approach.

 

[Land yachtie]

I've been using the Europly without edge banding, and I'd like to continue that detail in the rest of the cabinets. Do you know off hand if the prefinished birch has "baltic birch nature?" The 3/4" Europly has 15 plies. I don't think it has to be that many, but I'd like something that gives me the same feel.

View attachment 377848

call the guys ( Sam) at Edensaw. not cheap wood but the best wood. the problem with edge bonding plywood like that is the tiny thickness difference in the sheets. and the clamping. they do have several options of multiply sheet goods with no voids. I was just in the bay area to make cabinets for an old friend and it was impossible to find good plywood (prefinished and unfinished cherry) I had to use the stuff with the paper? under the veneer and only three lams of wood. it doesn't hold screws on edge like europly of apple ply. I'm spoiled getting to buy at Edensaw. there is a cheap product that has HPL on both or one side and multiple lams. It has several colors and wood grains on the HPL.

 

[dlu]

Edensaw is where the Europly comes from They are great folks to deal with.

I was thinking that I'd use Dominos for alignment and reference off of the inside faces (the Europly is about 0.5 mm thicker than the Arauco). That way I'd end up with a small gap on the back of the cases towards the wall that I could shim when I screw them together. I think I have enough long clamps... You know you might have enough clamps when you don't know how to manage them when they're not in use.

 

[Land yachtie]

Edensaw is where the Europly comes from They are great folks to deal with.

I was thinking that I'd use Dominos for alignment and reference off of the inside faces (the Europly is about 0.5 mm thicker than the Arauco). That way I'd end up with a small gap on the back of the cases towards the wall that I could shim when I screw them together. I think I have enough long clamps... You know you might have enough clamps when you don't know how to manage them when they're not in use.

Two more things to think about. Baltic birch in all sizes has an infuriating twist to it that I hate. I only use it for smaller parts like drawers. Second: I have made my own edge tape and applied it with FastCap two sided tape. You could make the edge tape from the euro ply and voilá euro ply! I was forced into making a cherry pantry after finishing an octagon kitchen. I made it with pre finished Cherry and fastened it with the fastcap drill thing that also cuts a 9/16" recess for the fast caps. And made all the edge tape from offcuts of the sheets goods. Just under 1/16" looked pretty good. I love Fastcap. I can attest that the tape gets stronger bond in time. It will rip the wood apart.

 

[dlu]

Two more things to think about. Baltic birch in all sizes has an infuriating twist to it that I hate. I only use it for smaller parts like drawers. Second: I have made my own edge tape and applied it with FastCap two sided tape. You could make the edge tape from the euro ply and voilá euro ply! I was forced into making a cherry pantry after finishing an octagon kitchen. I made it with pre finished Cherry and fastened it with the fastcap drill thing that also cuts a 9/16" recess for the fast caps. And made all the edge tape from offcuts of the sheets goods. Just under 1/16" looked pretty good. I love Fastcap. I can attest that the tape gets stronger bond in time. It will rip the wood apart.

Thank you! That is a really interesting idea!

Were you using the SpeedTape product? Using strips Europly to make edge tape I'd have to be pretty much dead on with the alignment since the substrate would also be 3/4" (more or less). How hard was that for you to do? I suppose I could look for some 18 mm material for the substrate to give me a bit of leeway.

 

[Packard]

Years ago, I bought some birch plywood (3/4” nominal) from Home Depot. It was very nice to work with for utility cabinets in my basement. They were both flat and smooth. When I get home I will photograph the edges which I left raw. I don’t recall the number of laminations nor if there were any voids. I will post the pictures.

The main selling point was that the panels were cheap and flat. I made cabinet boxes and drawers. This is going back about 25 years ago.

As I recall the plywood was from South America (Columbia?? Maybe.). At the time most of the stuff at Home Depot was either bowed or would take a bow after you brought it home and it no longer had panels of weight holding it flat. So this stuff was pretty nice. This was for basement workshop drawer unit, so aesthetics were fairly unimportant.

 

[Vondawg]

You can’t even go back 3 years and match up any ply from HD ….25 yr. Old pics ?